I interviewed Andrew Eiche, CEOwl at Owlchemy Labs, at Meta Connect 2024 about their latest title Dimensional Double Shift. See more context in the rough transcript below.
Here’s their launch trailer.
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Music: Fatality
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Rough Transcript
[00:00:05.458] Kent Bye: The Voices of VR Podcast. Hello, my name is Kent Bye, and welcome to the Voices of VR Podcast. It's a podcast that looks at the future of spatial computing. You can support the podcast at patreon.com slash voicesofvr. So continuing my series from MetaConnect 2024, today's episode is with Andrew Eicke, who's the CEO of Alchemy Labs. which, you know, very famous for Job Simulator, Vacation Simulator, Rick and Morty, VR, as well as Cosmonius High. And they're releasing a brand new game called Dimensional Double Shift, which is kind of like a multiplayer version of Job Simulator, very much focused on hand tracking. And also like there's no matchmaking. So you have to get together with people that you know, or go into the Discord and go to looking for group channel and match up with people who are wanting to jump into the game with you. So we cover a little bit about this latest experience, as well as the emphasis on hand tracking and porting over some of their previous titles over into the Apple Vision Pro. So we're covering all that and more on today's episode of the Voices of VR podcast. So this interview with Andrew happened on Thursday, September 26th, 2024 at MetaConnect in Menlo Park, California. So with that, let's go ahead and. Dive right in.
[00:01:20.752] Andrew Eiche: Hi, I'm Andrew Eicke, the CEO at Alchemy Labs. Alchemy Labs made the games Job Simulator, Vacation Simulator, Rick and Morty Virtual Recallity, Cosmonius High, and we just a few hours ago launched our latest game, Dimensional Double Shift, a free-to-play, hand-tracked, multiplayer game, cooperative, like no-lose, fun, all-good vibes game.
[00:01:43.829] Kent Bye: Maybe you could give a bit more context as to your background and your journey into this space.
[00:01:47.234] Andrew Eiche: Yeah. So my background is I was an engineer for a long time. I worked in a number of different government companies and eventually ended up in VR through working for Booz Allen Hamilton. I was previously on this podcast and then did that for a while, got recruited by Alchemy in the very early days for Job Sim, helped them finish Job Sim, ran the Rick and Morty project. And then as we were purchased by Google, Alchemy Labs, and so as that happened, the founders kind of left one at a time, which, you know, very normal stuff. And so as they left, I just was the person that ascended and now I'm the CEO. Great. Yeah.
[00:02:26.205] Kent Bye: I remember having a chance encounter with you back at Oculus Connect One, talking about Booz Allen Hamilton, whatever you were working on back then. So yeah, it's nice to come back, you know, the 11th edition now rather than the OC one. So yeah, you've been busy there at Alchemy Labs, both of like developing all these very embodied games over the years, and then also like launching on Apple Vision Pro with hand tracking and now with this new game. So, I guess let's talk first about the port to Apple vision pro. Cause you've got all these existing games that seems to be like, okay, Apple vision pro doesn't have any controllers. So you have to like really figure out how to come up with the mechanics of not only like porting these games, um, unity over into like the platform of Apple vision pro, but also what are the input mechanisms and how you start to navigate the menus or whatever else. So just walk through a little bit of that process of actually launching on the Apple vision pro with some of these titles that have been on like so many of the other VR platforms.
[00:03:19.022] Andrew Eiche: Yeah, so with Apple Vision Pro, I mean, we believe in a very similar vision to what they have in terms of like VR moving towards hand tracking as the initial input. Not that controllers are going anywhere, but as far as accessibility and friction, right, controllers stand in the way between your average user. So we were really excited when they launched. It was a pretty heavy lift for us to take our games and move them. Now, we had already done hand tracking as something experimental that we did for Vacation Simulator. And we ported that hand tracking over to Job Simulator and then brought those two to the Vision Pro platform. And what that hand tracking represents is really like a controller emulation. And we're very lucky with our games, right? There's only one interaction in Job Simulator, and that's pick up and drop, right? And you can hit things. And there's two in Vacation Simulator, so we just needed a gesture to do a teleport between these kind of zones. And through that experimentation, that's how we started to understand the hand tracking was actually good enough that you could play a whole game. You didn't need the controllers. And so it just made sense when the Vision Pro came out that we make sure that Job Simulator and Vacation Simulator are supported to these kind of top tier platforms. that it made sense for us to put our support behind the platform in its early days and have our games there so that as people are coming into the Vision Pro, which is like a mixed reality native platform, that they can see the potential of virtual reality and our games help show a lot of that.
[00:04:48.891] Kent Bye: And so do you think this shift towards this focus on hand tracking, did that come before the Apple Vision Pro or were you already on that track because of just the way that you've designed your games before that this was already a part of your natural evolution?
[00:05:00.956] Andrew Eiche: So we were working on Dimensional Double Shift, which was a fully hand-tracked game before the Vision Pro was announced. And we didn't know whether or not it was going to have controllers. So this has always been a very strong focus of ours. What happened is we did the port for Vacation Simulator. And when we first started that effort, the way Alchemy does R&D is we try to accomplish a goal, and we get to a certain point. And then what we do is we write down everything it would take for us to ship it. And if it's all things that we can do, then we actually move forward and ship the product. And so that's what happened with Vacation Simulator. And then we were given the opportunity to do another kind of R&D thing to build up a native library in multiplayer of hand tracking. And so as we started to build that up, we realized that this is good enough that this should be what our next game is about. And so that base transferred over from the R&D project actually turned into dimensional double shift in a way. So that was a case where we never launched or released the R&D project. Instead, we released this whole game that has this new system. And so that is a hand-tracked native system versus what we had done in Vacation Simulator with this Control system and there was serendipitous right it helped validate us that when we saw the vision pro headset Ship without controllers. It was like okay. We are definitely being now supported by the larger industry in this thought of having games that are hand-tracked exclusively
[00:06:30.959] Kent Bye: Okay. And so when you talk about these R&D projects, you know, you're a part of Google, which is always sort of like a weird situation because you've got the support of Google, but at the same time, you're autonomous or semi-autonomous. And so when you talk about these R&D projects, is that coming from internally within the context of Alchemy? Or is this like your interface with the Google hierarchy where they have other interests than XR of doing these different type of R&D projects? Just trying to get a sense of like how these R&D projects are coming about.
[00:06:57.944] Andrew Eiche: all of the above. Right. So sometimes we do an R and D project and it's purely for ourselves. Right. And so like in Cosmonius high, we did low cited, like an entire low site update. That was us. We just wanted to do that. We want to experiment with that during the pandemic. Right. I can't get into too many details, but during the pandemic, right, we were all kind of doing some stuff and you know, we'll get asked, we can always say, no, we're pretty autonomous, but we got to ask like, Hey, do you want to try checking out some things in VR, like let's see some experiments of co-presence and stuff like that. And so we were like, OK, let's mess around. And so we did. And, you know, it's not like our parent company doesn't have like master plans with us. It's more like, hey, you're around. It would be nice if you could just show us this so we understand the possibilities. And then for us, it's like, oh, well, we've wanted to build multiplayer. So, you know, it kind of works out that way. And so, yeah, I mean, there's a little of both. I think it's a healthy relationship, too, because both companies bring completely different perspectives to the table. Right. Google's mission to organize the world's data and, you know, what they build and the type of products they think about are very different from what we build. And so we both benefit from, like, the perspectives that we bring.
[00:08:06.232] Kent Bye: Yeah, I just noticed a lot of big corporate structures like meta, it feels like there's a certain way in that like thinking more in engineering terms versus like game development terms in terms of like rapid iteration. And it feels like having like an autonomous game develop centric entity allows for that natural evolution and innovation for the iterative process, but also the user testing and just like putting it within the context of game tends to like drive innovation in a way that I think it's nice to have that type of freedom as an autonomous entity within a larger corporate structure in that way. But to get specifically back to your latest game, what was the remit in terms of the social dimension? Or maybe talk about some of the design constraints that you had within the context of this latest experience.
[00:08:48.263] Andrew Eiche: So this game went through many different forms. So we've been working on it for three years. The original form was much closer to like what you could call like a generic kind of space, right? And we were building on the space and we actually went through this like big change where we switched and we were like, okay, let's make this more of a video game and less of just kind of like a hangout space. The prototype was called Haven, right? And then when we switched, that helped hone us in. And so we had the diner. That switch brought this diner and garage into focus, the service station into focus. But after that switch, we had this thought in our head that, OK, well, we have to design single player, and we have to make this game. We have to design $20 worth of games and all this. We had all these constraints that kind of were of the era of what we built in Job Simulator. And we had this moment. It was actually much more recent than you would think. It was like last November. We had a moment and even a little bit later where we we realized that we have to look at the ecosystem where we're at now. And we were like, OK, single player is breaking the game, right? Because what would happen is the most fun elements of dimensional double shift are the moments that you're collaborating with someone when like in the diner, I need something from you and I need an ingredient or I need this or we're like passing in that chaos. and in the garage when it takes three of us working together to solve a puzzle. But if you have to make it work single player, you can't force that design constraint. So by eliminating single player and taking the stance that like, well, we've already built a lot of amazing single player, Right. And you can go play Job Simulator if that's what you want. We were able to really focus on making the game incredibly collaborative and that really propelled it forward. And then on top of it, we were like, OK, and we can start with it, you know, as free and as a beta and those kind of things. And that helps us like build a little bit more out in the public. Alchemy has always been kind of we lock down the game, we build it and then we ship everything. and that's it, right? We ship the game and it's out there in the world. But this time, especially with it being multiplayer and collaborative and all these things, we kind of wanted to be like, okay, let's start with the smallest nugget of what we feel like is a really great experience, put it out there, see what people like, and move from there, and also be uncompromising in the things that we need to be. And it being free takes a lot of the stakes out of that, right? If you had to spend $20 for a game that was exclusively multiplayer and had all these different caveats around it, it's a harder sell than like, hey, this thing is only multiplayer, but it doesn't cost you anything. And this thing is only hand tracked, but all our little caveats start to melt away when we change the structure of it.
[00:11:33.334] Kent Bye: Is it compatible for both Quest 2 and Quest 3?
[00:11:35.933] Andrew Eiche: Quest 2, 3, and 3S. It's being demoed here at Kinect on 3S. So, yes, Quest 2 is actually a really important goal for us because it's a social game. We didn't want to exclude the largest group of players.
[00:11:48.761] Kent Bye: Right. Okay. And so what's the core gameplay loop of what happens in this experience? I haven't seen much of the trailers or anything. I'm just kind of learning about it as we're speaking. And so you mentioned like allusions to Job Simulator where I have some sense of what happens there. So maybe you just kind of describe what happens in the game.
[00:12:04.147] Andrew Eiche: Yeah. So first step before all of this, I'll just say our biggest design thing was like, what if we made job simulator multiplayer, right? That's a lot of it. And so a lot of that comes out of that space. So in dimensional double shift, a team of up to four people run a service station, a diner slash garage, where your parent company has decided it would be cheaper if one of those covered multiple dimensions. And so you are. in the omniverse, that's what we call it, the omniverse, and you are serving the citizens of those as the people running the gas and grill. And so basically the gameplay loop is you pick whether you're going to do a diner shift or a garage shift, and the diner shifts are like Alchemy's signature gameplay with a lot of cooking. There's four stations, each of which has different items and objects that's randomized, so like... When you play, you might have a different role than you're used to. So each fills a role. You do tickets, and you'll need stuff from other players. You'll have to work together. At the end of that shift, we do what's called last call, and it's this race to try to get as many tickets done as you can before time runs out. in the garage it's much more of a puzzle game so a car shows up you lift off the chassis and all these modules appear and it's up to you and the other players to figure out how to fix all the broken modules and some of the modules are like very much just something you do by yourself it's like tap these four buttons in a certain order and some of the modules are like things that you have to do within multiple other players so there'll be one where like somebody has to hand a thumb drive to a person who has a computer. They read a schematic off a computer for like what pistons you need to make. And a third player manufactures the pistons in this machine. They like press these pistons. And so you kind of all come together to solve that. It is non-competitive, right? It is purely collaborative. There's no winning or losing. It's about all of you in this together.
[00:14:01.061] Kent Bye: And how do you do matchmaking if people don't have people that they know that would want to be able to play it?
[00:14:06.163] Andrew Eiche: In the beta, we don't do matchmaking. So in the beta, we do room codes and we have our Discord and has an LFG channel. So you're welcome to join the Looking for Group channel and do room codes. In the future, we don't currently have a plan for matchmaking. And I can tell you why. It's because matchmaking works best when it rests on some kind of numerical measure, right? An ELO, if you will. There's no ELO for collaboration. So we are thinking of ways to allow people to meet each other, but it's not going to look like hit a button that says play and it pairs you with random people. And that kind of matchmaking also breeds toxicity. And that's just our game. We're trying to be non-competitive. So we want you to feel like you're entering someone's space. We don't want you to feel as if you are paired with these ephemeral randos that you could be awful to and know they'll vanish, right? And that's the problem with matchmaking, which is fine in a competitive game because you can be paired with these people, you try to win, you try to beat them. But in a collaborative game, we want to be like, you've all entered a space together and you need to work together and you can't be awful.
[00:15:15.603] Kent Bye: And is it a minimum of three or maximum of three? Like you only have to have three? Like what's the number of people that can play one of the rounds?
[00:15:23.410] Andrew Eiche: Two to four players. And the game dynamically adjusts. So if you're a two-player match, it knows not to pick objects from other stations. And if you're four players, then it's maximum chaos. A good thing to note is there's actually no locomotion in the game entirely. It's a new philosophical kind of statement we've taken on, which is... If you want to put locomotion in your VR game, you really should consider whether or not it's a core mechanic. So if it's not core to what your game is, if you're like, hey, we have these like stations and you're doing this deep interaction at stations, you should consider removing locomotion because locomotion is just going to distract from the experience or. your bone lab bone works, right? And Logomotion is core of the experience and you just go all in. So we realized that it wasn't core to our experience. We didn't want to go all in on it. And so we removed it and that actually made the game significantly better. And so that's part of it too, is we like adjust all the stations. You don't have to like jump between stations that aren't there. We just know the station's empty and we don't pluck items from it.
[00:16:25.546] Kent Bye: Is the idea that the user's space would all be roughly the same that they could basically like all be walking around each other or are there options to actually have to like rotate your space in order to like make it even possible for people to like be co-located? Like I guess get around that you have to have a minimum space or like how do you deal with like ensuring that people aren't colliding with each other giving their space constraints?
[00:16:47.423] Andrew Eiche: We collide with each other. We actually are one of the games that breaks the multiplayer rule. So we build the spaces as small squares, and they overlap each other on purpose. So you're handing things to each other. You're smacking into each other. You're colliding. The game is chaotic, right? And that's the deal.
[00:17:04.479] Kent Bye: OK, so it's basically you have different zones that people are in, and then they're interfacing in different ways.
[00:17:08.911] Andrew Eiche: Yeah, it's basically like think of job simulator. Right. You had a single square space that you were in. But imagine you have like four of them now. Right. And so you have somebody diagonal to you and somebody on either side of you. But instead of having like two counters, you all share one counter or in the car, you're all surrounding the car and each have a section. And so there's lots of overlap and we don't. prevent you from crossing so if you like reach over into somebody's like in the diner if you reach over and pull the syrup off somebody's station and it's not theirs like that's fine and they can yell at you about that and say like what are you doing that's my stuff
[00:17:47.398] Kent Bye: Yeah, I know one of the core affordances of like Job Simulator and Rick and Morty and other subsequent games has been like this, taking objects and combining them with other objects to have like emergent objects that have unique behaviors. Is there kind of a similar way that you like have a big giant spreadsheet of all the different ways that different things can combine with each other?
[00:18:05.351] Andrew Eiche: Not a combined spreadsheet, but we do have a lot of systemic stuff. So we have fire and your hands can light on fire. And like there's a strategy where like if you're in the grill station, you light your hands on fire so you never have to use the grill because you're just constantly cooking things as you're touching them. And so, yeah, there's a bunch of different like we have a lot of liquid properties and the liquids can all change and mix and do those things. So yeah, we don't have like a combinator like we did in past games. We don't have like a sandwich maker, not to say that this beta, we could totally put those in there, but we do have like a lot of news. Oh, we have a clump system. So like you can take any object in the game and grind it into like little clumps and then put it in a burrito. Right. So there's a lot of fun things that we've done along the lines of what we've done in previous games.
[00:18:49.684] Kent Bye: So you're just launching today, but I know with any game you go through a number of different user testing periods. So what has been some of the early feedback of the game?
[00:18:57.532] Andrew Eiche: So yeah, the early feedback, I mean, people really like this game so far from what we've seen in feedback when we forced them to play. So, you know, now you always get a test when they're not forced to play. We force them to play. People really like it. It feels very like a party game and very collaborative. Many people say it's the first game they've ever had somebody say thank you in. because you're like passing things to each other. It's what I described is it's like a nuclear deterrence, the video game, because if one person's a jerk, the whole thing is going to melt down. And so everybody's like nice to each other because they know that there's no alternative. You have to be nice to each other. And yeah. So, you know, we've had an enormous positive response. I think this is the thing. Like if you look at a lot of our comments and a lot of what people have wanted from alchemy, they have wanted a cooperative response. job simulator and the job simulator universe doesn't lend itself to that for many reasons, lore and other things. But like this scratches that itch. And then we worked really hard to make sure it was just the umpteenth degree of it. So, yeah, the user testing now is like people love it. We went through a lot of user testing phases. And so, you know, whenever you do user testing, you start one of the worst days in making any video game I've ever made is external playtest day one. And you just know it's a bad day. and you just like buckle up and you put your head down and you just take your lumps and you go, okay, that was the bad day. And then you start building and iterating and fixing from there because it's basically the testing of all your theories and about half your theories are correct and about half of them are wildly wrong. And so, yeah, that's when you get to see it. So we've gone from that day, which was many, many months ago to today, which is like a very well tested, very hardened version of that. And so. We're feeling confident that our players are going to love it.
[00:20:47.288] Kent Bye: Yeah, when talking about the garage scene, then talking about how you have keys that unlock and information transferring back and forth, it reminded me a little bit of Keep Talking and Nobody Explodes, where you have this asymmetry where some person has the key, but they have to describe different objects to other person who has to then translate that language back into the actions that have to be taken. Are there any asymmetrical type of gameplay like that that's in that puzzle game?
[00:21:10.117] Andrew Eiche: I would say Keep Talking and Nobody Explodes and Space Team are the biggest influences for that. Just like in the diner, there's an overcooked lineage. And the difference that we took between all those games is we turned off the time pressure on all of them. So those games are trying to emphasize excellence in execution. You're trying to hone yourself in to being really good at doing it. Like in Space Team, the best teams have a regimented way where they go around and around. Our game is about creativity. So if we take the time pressure off, people will be willing to experiment. If you experiment in an Overcooked or a Space Team, first thing that's gonna happen is everyone's gonna pile on you and be like, we're not here to like make this up. Just say your piece and move on, right? But in our game, it's like, Do you want to see if the gas tank can be filled with water? Sure. Why not? Right. There's no time pressure there. So a lot of it was like taking these like familiar concepts and then being like, what if we emphasized a different axis than what they emphasize where they emphasize this like execute because it's a literal bomb game. Right. So you have to keep moving, keep moving because there's this pressure that something bad is going to happen. And in our game, it's like the opposite. It's like what if the bomb never exploded, but, or it could like shoot out confetti and stuff and you could just mess around with it and see what happens.
[00:22:29.556] Kent Bye: But do you have like a time limit or how do you create like an ending or when people know when they're done or they stopped? Like, is there a session time that has like a beginning, middle and end? How do you negotiate like having a carefree timeless, no time pressure, but yet not have something that's infinite sandbox that also feels like it has a beginning, middle and end that feels like a satisfying overall experience.
[00:22:49.451] Andrew Eiche: Two things help us with that. So there are a limit of a number of things you can do. So in the diner, there's a number of tickets you have to do that scales based on how many players. So once you do those tickets, last call kicks off, then the shift ends. And that's how we do it is in shifts. And in the garage, it's you fix two cars, right? Now, there's nothing stopping you from not doing that, right? But the interesting thing is... Unlike single player, when you have multiplayer, because somebody else is reliant on you, there is a natural pressure to keep doing something. It is really interesting and people doubt it when they go into it. But we've done so many play tests and you always assume, oh, well, this like norm we've established of like, please don't stop playing the game. somebody's going to take a step back and be like, this is all made up. What is society? We're only doing this because this company told us we have to. Rules aren't real. Nothing's real. And then anarchy reigns. No. It's something about other people looking at you, and you're like, oh, if I don't finish my modules in the car, they're going to all be like, why haven't you done that? And so there's this light pressure, and it just keeps the game moving.
[00:24:04.293] Kent Bye: Nice. And that's how society runs with all the corporations, right?
[00:24:07.150] Andrew Eiche: I mean, that's how society runs in life. We see what happens when someone breaks the norms and we have no system to deal with it. And then we're like, wait, but those were the norms. We just did this because that's the way everything worked.
[00:24:18.617] Kent Bye: Awesome. Well, I can't wait to get home and try it out with some of my friends and family and, uh, yeah, just kind of dive in and check it out. But yeah, as we start to wrap up, I'd love to hear what you think the ultimate potential of virtual reality and these types of emergent social dynamic games might be and what they might be able to enable.
[00:24:35.202] Andrew Eiche: When I think about virtual reality and I think about the future, I think a lot about rec leagues. And I think a lot about spaces and places and things like Dungeons and Dragons, right? I don't believe that virtual reality is going to be a replacement. I think it's an addition. And when we think about an addition to everything, we think about... How do people find enjoyment on like a weekly scale in this media? Right. Or how do we have specific tasks or specific meetings or specific things that we're doing in our life that just feel more productive? Right. we already have some of this happening if you want to watch a 3d movie you can go buy a terrible 3d tv and wear bad glasses or you can use an avp and have the most beautiful version of that 3d movie that you've ever seen right if you want to meet co-present we're starting to see a lot of the awesome co-presence happen through these headsets And one of the things you talk to people about is hobbies. If you ask anybody what their hobby is, they might be like, I play softball. I play kickball. This is the rec league thing. I do Dungeons and Dragons. And you say, OK, but how many times do you do that? And they're like, well, once a week or in the summer or something. And you go, well, what do you do every night? And they're like, well, I watch Netflix. And you go, so Netflix is your hobby? They would say no, right? VR is a much more defining medium on a personal level than it is a thing that just kind of happens, like your phone or Netflix. And the thing that excites me the most about this, I see the younger generation, they're VR native. They don't think of VR as a extra thing or a new thing. It's just part of their lives. It's another aspect of their digital presence that they exist in. And it is like really amazing to see. I think in the next decade, you know, obviously we're going to have hardware improvements and stuff, but seeing like a societal sea change where like, it's expected that you have a VR headset because that's just what your friends have. And that's what everybody has. And we've grown up with this. It's going to be wild.
[00:26:37.479] Kent Bye: Do you think that's because of like Roblox and Minecraft and Fortnite and now like gorilla tag that there's like being virtual world natives or VR natives, digital natives for zoomers and alphas, or why do you think that there are so native to VR as a platform?
[00:26:53.342] Andrew Eiche: I think that you, I mean, you actually just plucked it right out of there, right? It's part of the reason why we went free to play is like the relationship has changed, right? People expect to be able to try your product out. They expect to be able to be in that and then figure out how they want to patronize it. Right. And I think, yeah, with the kids playing Roblox and Minecraft and having tablets from an early age and having no money and infinite time, you're going to find ways to have a digital society. And then my like, I always end these on like a weird, depressing societal note, but with the collapse of third spaces for the youth, right? So like the grasshopper device that like scares off the youth or like the lack of parks or like kids being chased out of extra spaces. They've used the digital to create the third space. And so unintentionally as a society, we have pushed them to the fortnight, to the roadblocks, because it is a space where kids are allowed to exist in and truly be kids without a bunch of nosy Karen's or whatever you want to call them showing up and trying to boot them out of there. Hmm.
[00:28:02.711] Kent Bye: Great. Do you have anything else that's left unsaid or any final thoughts you have for the rest of the immersive community?
[00:28:08.153] Andrew Eiche: I'm extremely excited about the future, not just of our games, but in general. I think that especially at this conference has been reinvigorating, but just in general, I think we're on the cusp of like what the next wave of stuff is going to be. And it's going to be a very exciting time for immersive going forward. So yeah.
[00:28:28.362] Kent Bye: Did you have a chance to do the Orion demo?
[00:28:30.123] Andrew Eiche: I wish. I tried. I asked somebody, and I was like, can I do the Orion demo? And they're like, I heard about it at the same time you did. And I was like, oh, I wish I did. I'm going to try to figure it out.
[00:28:40.231] Kent Bye: It seems like they should have Alchemy Labs in there. Anyway, I didn't have a chance to try it yet either. But yeah, it's part of the next wave of all that's happening with AR. But yeah, Andrew, thanks again for joining me today. To tell me a little bit more about the dimensional double shift, it sounds like this kind of multiplayer job simulator with all these other influences. And It sounds like this move towards this free-to-play model that seems to have worked very well for games like Guerrilla Tag that has lots of different users. It feels like that type of experience with this collaborative requirement. It's very interesting to see where that goes. I'm looking forward to jumping in and trying it out myself. Thanks again for joining me to help break it all down.
[00:29:15.912] Andrew Eiche: Thank you, Kent. Thanks for having me.
[00:29:17.588] Kent Bye: Thanks again for listening to the Voices of VR podcast, and I would like to invite you to join me on my Patreon. I've been doing the Voices of VR for over 10 years, and it's always been a little bit more of like a weird art project. I think of myself as like a knowledge artist, so I'm much more of an artist than a business person. But at the end of the day, I need to make this more of a sustainable venture. Just $5 or $10 a month would make a really big difference. I'm trying to reach $2,000 a month or $3,000 a month right now. I'm at $1,000 a month, which means that's my primary income. And I just need to get it to a sustainable level just to even continue this oral history art project that I've been doing for the last decade. And if you find value in it, then please do consider joining me on the Patreon at patreon.com slash voices of VR. Thanks for listening.