#1484: Cas & Chary on Meta Connect Announcements & Using Ray-Ban Meta Smartglasses to Stay Connected

I interviewed Casandra Vuong and Chary Keijzer of the Cas and Chary YouTube channel, at Meta Connect 2024 about all of the latest announcements, their journey into their XR coverage, and how they use the Ray-Ban Meta Smartglasses to stay connected to each other. See more context in the rough transcript below.

Here’s their video about the Quest 3S launch produced while onsite at Meta Connect:

This is a listener-supported podcast through the Voices of VR Patreon.

Music: Fatality

Rough Transcript

[00:00:05.458] Kent Bye: The Voices of VR podcast. Hello, my name is Kent Bye, and welcome to the Voices of VR podcast. It's a podcast that looks at the future of special computing. You can support the podcast at patreon.com slash voices of VR. So continuing my coverage of MetaConnect 2024, today's episode is with Cass and Sherry of the YouTube channel, and they're creators who are focusing on XR technologies, and we're talking about all the latest news that are coming out of MetaConnect, as well as how they've been using the Ray-Ban Meta smart glasses. So that's what we're covering on today's episode of the Wasteless VR Podcast. So this interview with Cass and Sherry happened on Thursday, September 26th, 2024 at MetaConnect in Menlo Park, California. So with that, let's go ahead and dive right in.

[00:00:52.766] Cas: I'm Cass from Cass and Sherry VR or XR now on YouTube and we're YouTube content creators dedicated to XR. So we make primarily VR hardware reviews, content and also gameplay reviews and Just general tech news as well, all about XR.

[00:01:11.004] Chary: Hello. Yeah, I'm Sherry from Cousin Sherry. I'm part of the channel as well. I do more of the behind the scenes, creative input as well. And I'm always there at events, of course. MARK MANDELMANN- Great.

[00:01:21.635] Kent Bye: Maybe you could each give a bit more context as to your background and your journey into the space.

[00:01:25.615] Cas: Yeah, so I started as a backend software developer and that's how I got into VR, because they had like dev kits of VR headsets, like the Oculus DK1 was there. And that's the first headset we tried actually. And because we were also gamers, or are also gamers, we always had the dream of going inside of our games. So once we tried the DK1 or 2, we just realized that dream might come true. So we were just sold completely. And then the headsets came out, the consumer headsets. And we tried that as well. And I convinced Cherry actually to buy it with me.

[00:02:00.866] Chary: So I do have a different background. I do have a technical background, but more in construction. But yeah, Cass is the one that dragged me into VR, I would say. She's the one that introduced me to it. And she was like really passionate about it. And I'm happy we are able to share it now. Yeah.

[00:02:17.259] Kent Bye: And so maybe you could describe a little bit of your journey into deciding to start your YouTube channel. And what was the catalyst to go from kind of an enthusiast and exploring it to then actually creating content around it?

[00:02:28.672] Cas: Yes. So when we started creating the content, we already owned the HTC Vive, the original HTC Vive. And when we used that device, there was just not a lot of information online available. And we had some issues sometimes, like software stuff, compatibility issues, and we didn't know what to do with it. And you could not find anything online. So we thought, OK, now we have to find it out ourselves. Why not just share whatever we find out online as well? And there was never like the intention of making this like a full time thing on YouTube because we are full time now. But it just started like as a hobby, I guess. And then I guess it was a good plan because it started to take off a little.

[00:03:13.632] Chary: Yeah, I would maybe say at the beginning we didn't expect it to go that well because we were like, oh, we're going to do one video in two weeks. And it was like, I think three videos a week. All of a sudden it changed pretty quickly. Yeah.

[00:03:27.305] Kent Bye: What was the turning point when you knew that there was going to be something that was going to be perhaps beyond the trajectory of doing this full time rather than just something on the side?

[00:03:36.066] Cas: Now, we have been doing it for seven years, so I have to think back a little. But I think the first videos we did were mostly gameplay reviews where we talked about, okay, this is a good game, this is not a good game. And we thought we would get maybe 10 views, but we started to get thousands of views. And I think that was the turning point. We also started to post on Reddit, and we just saw the traction. People were really supportive and also enjoying the content, really appreciative of it. And I think that started to get to that turning point, right?

[00:04:09.487] Chary: Yeah, I think so too. I think once we saw like how many views there were and like certain videos, like I remember like Sorrento, I think that's like one of the first, we were the first creators who covered that and that one did so well. And after us, other creators did it as well. And we're like, oh,

[00:04:23.994] Cas: like we can do it yeah i think the developers also started to reach out at that point and it just started rolling like we've got like more developers wanting to like come in contact with us and i think that's where it started to be like more okay so this is maybe a little bit more than just a hobby do you feel like you have a sweet spot of the different types of experiences that you like to do within vr Well, we used to want to try everything just to cover everything. But nowadays, that's not possible, which is a good thing because there's just so much content out now. So lately, I lean a lot towards the more cozy XR games like There are a bunch coming out that are very mixed reality focused, but one that I'm really interested in is Wall Town Wonders. It's by the developers of Hubris, Cyborn. I'm not sure if you know that game, but it's a mixed reality game where you build your own little town. You have little people walking around and you can help them. grow the town in your own house. So it's like on your wall as well. And it's so cute and so cozy. And I think I'm leaning towards that kind of games now at the moment.

[00:05:37.055] Chary: I would say multiplayer games, easy, cozy, social. Yeah, those games I love. Yeah.

[00:05:42.472] Kent Bye: Yeah, I just had a chance to play through some of the Starship Home that's just launching today. I don't know if that's kind of in the genre of that kind of cozying, nurturing type of game where you're turning your home into a spaceship and flying around. It just launched today, but I don't know if you've had a chance to take a look at that one yet.

[00:05:56.820] Cas: I have not actually, but I plan on trying out tonight actually. But yeah, that does sound like a game I would really want to try out. It's just so magical having that in your own home, seeing stuff happen. Yeah.

[00:06:09.844] Kent Bye: Yeah, I really quite enjoyed it. So yeah, I guess in terms of being here at MetaConnect, there's a whole creator program where they bring everybody in and show everybody the demos. The big news, I guess, for the rest of the industry is that there's the Quest 3S. There's also the Orion AR glasses demo, but not as easy to get a demo of that. But I'd love to hear some of your thoughts on some of the announcements and what it means for the larger ecosystem.

[00:06:32.734] Cas: Yes, so we were at the MetaConnect keynote and actually we got pretty excited about everything. I think it had a really good enthusiastic vibe to it. Although I have to say the Quest 3S is not like the most exciting device we were most excited about just because there is the 3 as well and that device just has more but also it is more expensive. But I do think Having a budget-friendly headset like the Quest 3S with color pass-through and being able to do the same stuff, it's going to be really important to get more people into mixed reality and VR in general. So I am really excited about that part, seeing new people trying out these mixed reality experiences that I've been really enjoying.

[00:07:18.055] Chary: Yeah, I definitely agree about that. Because I think for us, because we play a lot of VR, we own like different headsets. Like the hardware part maybe is less, but like getting people into it, like more people are enthusiastic, getting into space. And next to the VR stuff, I actually also really like the Ray-Ban, like the new options they're getting, like the new updates they're getting. Also the AI looks pretty cool, what they're adding to that as well. So I think I actually was maybe more enthusiastic about the things next to VR, I would say, in this keynote. And Orion, of course, who isn't?

[00:07:49.900] Cas: Yeah. I actually also think the second thing that I'm excited about is the Orion AR. I know I think you've tried it.

[00:07:55.942] Kent Bye: No, I didn't get a chance to try it, yeah.

[00:07:58.194] Cas: Unfortunately, us neither. But from what I saw from the keynote, it does look like this. We go to CES and those kind of events. So we kind of know like what's going on in the AR department. But we haven't seen something like what they've done. Like it's such a small form factor. So I am super curious about what the future is going to be like. It seems to be much closer than years ago. So I'm excited about it.

[00:08:24.301] Kent Bye: Yeah, I just was at the Snap Spectacles event where that was being announced as a dev kit. And there's actually a number of different developers that were there that are walking around with the Snap Spectacles. So you might be able to grab one of them to try it out. But they're actually shipping a dev kit. So at least for the Snap Spectacles, it's a little bit of like a DK1 moment of a dev kit, just like the Oculus DK1 that was accessible for anybody to have access to. And it's a lot more democratized in the sense that it's going to be available for more developers to start to have access to it. So for me personally, I feel like I am more interested into VR. But yeah, I guess the Ray-Ban Meta Smart Glasses is something that also seems to have a lot of traction from the consumer market. And just to see how from the bottom up, from the top down, how those might converge. But they gave all the pressing creators one of the special edition of the Ray-Ban Meta Smart Glasses. And so did you already have a pair? Is this your first pair? Have you had a chance to try it out yet?

[00:09:17.288] Chary: We already had one. Yeah, actually, we do love this design, though, because we have like a matte black, but we always want like a translucent. Thank you. Yeah, so because of the hardware, because and also where we use it, like in the Netherlands, it's not being sold yet. So it's even more special to have one if you're there. Like everyone is always like, what is that on your face? Like a lot of people don't even know it there. So it's kind of funny to just have this. And yeah, I love the features. Only SEVI are not able to use AI without the VPN, but it's fine.

[00:09:49.745] Cas: It's fine. Once you turn on the VPN, it does work. And I do really enjoy the new features where it can look and tell you stuff. And it looks like they're going to remove that command. You don't need to prompt that anymore. So it does sound really handy, even though maybe privacy sensitive. But still, without thinking about that, it could be really helpful. I love AI integration on lives. It's just been making us more productive, which is nice.

[00:10:18.457] Kent Bye: And what else have you been using it for?

[00:10:19.877] Chary: OK, I have a quite fun user case for us, because we're in the Netherlands. So most people probably know it, but a lot of people bike in Holland. Of course, everyone is on a bike. And we use it to call each other when we're biking, because you're not always able to bike next to each other. But now, with the glasses, we can just talk to each other. It doesn't matter where we are biking. That's actually our, I think, top user case, next to music and calling and different stuff. But this is such a useful thing to do.

[00:10:47.685] Cas: I really like the microphone on those things. They're really clear and also the speakers. Well, actually, I mean, there's like I think five microphones all around it. So if you record like stuff, you will get the same spatial audio like exactly where you hear it. So if someone like is at the right behind you, you will hear it exactly like they're there. And it feels even though it's not VR, it just feels like if you listen back to that video, like you're really there again. And that's what I really love about the Ray-Ban Metas as well. It's just great audio. And also when we call each other on the bike, there's like not a lot of latency, which is actually better than other Bluetooth headphones. Like the AirPods has latency, so we cannot use it to call each other on the bike because I would hear her voice and then like a second later, I'll hear it in my headphones. It doesn't happen with the Ray-Ban Metas.

[00:11:38.882] Kent Bye: Okay, so you're in the Netherlands riding your bikes around and in order to actually communicate, do you like use WhatsApp or you're just using a phone call just to call each other and talk?

[00:11:47.948] Chary: It's just like a phone call, yeah.

[00:11:49.770] Cas: I also send pictures to Cherry by using the voice command. Like you can do, hey Meta, take a photo and then send to Cherry on WhatsApp or something like that and it will do it like immediately.

[00:12:02.967] Chary: It's nice. And another nice use case, I remember we were not able to do it at the beginning, but when you're just doing grocery shopping, and I can just show her through my glasses, I'm like, which one do you want, the right one or the left one? And she can just look at me, because mostly I used to send pictures through my phone, and I had to wait, and then she has to choose, and now I can just call through WhatsApp, yeah.

[00:12:23.436] Cas: I mean, if you connect your Ray-Ban glasses to your phone and you have your WhatsApp on and you call each other via WhatsApp, you can turn on the Ray-Ban Meta cameras on WhatsApp. So she can see my view and we can kind of do shopping together, I guess. Those kind of things, yeah.

[00:12:38.286] Chary: Exactly.

[00:12:39.066] Cas: How amazing is that?

[00:12:39.947] Kent Bye: So you just do like a live stream of what you're seeing and then you shop together even though you're not there.

[00:12:43.670] Chary: Yeah, with each other, yeah. Because I used to always like, I'm so indecisive and I always need her opinion on stuff. Like, do I need to get this? Do I need to get that? And this is perfect.

[00:12:53.997] Cas: Yes. And just general stuff, like the AI stuff for weather, those kind of things, it does that too. I love them. I think I like the integration that they have with WhatsApp and all the other apps. It's been good.

[00:13:05.365] Kent Bye: Have you done any videos on Ray-Ban Metaglasses, like how you use it yet?

[00:13:09.409] Cas: Not yet. But I plan on doing it, but I haven't gotten to it. I really want to this year.

[00:13:15.312] Chary: Yeah. We mostly just record like little snaps of like experiences.

[00:13:20.193] Kent Bye: So you're sending clips to each other on videos and.

[00:13:23.355] Chary: Or on socials.

[00:13:24.475] Cas: Yeah. For the Instagram story. It's great. Yeah. Very easy. Yeah.

[00:13:30.956] Kent Bye: I had a chance to talk to Veronica Flint, who's an XR developer who was at Snap Spectacles, and she does a lot of live streaming of different moments as she's going to different events. It's because she's an XR developer that goes to all these different events. It feels like there was a movement of Justin.tv, who was doing live streaming of his life, So it feels like these are context-specific snapshots and snippets that are for people to send out over social media. Or in your case, it sounds like just the way that you're able to use it to stay connected while you're not together. Or even if you are together, even more together.

[00:14:00.825] Cas: How crazy, right? I know. It is. But it's also fun when people are WhatsApping you, you can actually hear what they are saying through the glasses. I don't know if you use Whatsapp, but they will read it out loud. And I guess that also makes you stay connected with your friends a little bit easier, even when you're doing stuff like driving. It's much more safe that way to just listen to it than to look at your phone.

[00:14:22.595] Chary: So I actually was wondering, because in Europe we use WhatsApp a lot, but I think that's not something that the people in the US use, right?

[00:14:29.937] Kent Bye: Whenever I travel, I use it with everybody because it's like international phones and stuff. There's like, you know, for the US, if you're texting other people who are in the US, you can just text. But sometimes like texting international numbers, it won't let me unless I like use WhatsApp to be able to connect to people. So for me, at least, if I have international numbers and I think maybe in Europe, there's just more people who have international numbers intermixing with each other.

[00:14:50.182] Cas: Yeah, I think that's why. Yeah. Yeah, WhatsApp is just the most used messaging app in Holland for us. Everyone uses WhatsApp. Yeah.

[00:15:00.716] Kent Bye: Great. Well, when you think about some of the different videos that you've made over the last six or seven, eight years, what were some of your favorites that you feel really proud of that you were able to push yourself or really tell a story or cover something in a way that you felt really satisfied with?

[00:15:15.213] Cas: I think it's our tennis video. We worked with a developer for first person tennis, which is a tennis simulator game, a realistic one. And what we did was actually trying to learn tennis with the VR game only, and then practicing for a few weeks actually, and then going to a real court to see what those teachings were. and if it really taught us anything. Like beforehand, we knew nothing about tennis, not even the rules. So we went in blank and we made the video, like showed the whole progress and what we learned and how it turned out. And it actually turns out that you can really learn skills in VR. And I think I'm really proud of that video, right?

[00:16:00.646] Chary: I really liked that one as well. It took a lot of practice. It's still hard, but we did pretty good. You know which video I also really liked? I think the MR Demeo video we did. You know why I really liked it? So we did a short clip of that, but we also played with friends. It's kind of weird because VR is mostly, oh, you do it not together, like in different areas. But we actually just invited friends over and played Demeo on our couch, like in MR. And we were all standing around the table. I don't know, it was so much fun doing it that way as well.

[00:16:31.727] Cas: So we had Demeo spatially anchored to our couch and it was like the perfect square size of the Demeo board. So it actually looked like it was a game board, like a real game board. It looked like AR and then everyone had like the view synced with the headsets on. And we made that video and on Instagram it went kind of viral and it's just so much fun to discover those kind of technologies and show off what you can do in VR with the Quest, which a lot of people I don't think know about. So I think, yeah, I'm really proud of that one too.

[00:17:05.325] Kent Bye: I know there's been a lot of changes with both algorithm changes that happen all the time, but also moving to shorts and reels and ways that can be somewhat disruptive for people. If they're spending a lot of time watching shorts, they may not be watching the more long-form content. And so I'm wondering how you've been adapting to either starting to produce your own short-form content, or how do you start to navigate if you're just focusing on the more long-form pieces, like how to make sure that you're still being discovered or not being negatively influenced for all the other ecosystem changing that are happening within the context of what it means to be a video content creator today.

[00:17:38.188] Cas: I have to say, I think shorts and Instagram reels and TikTok is just another beast from long form content. I feel like it's like two different worlds. Like people watch shorts, don't really watch long form content. So I try to see them as two different platforms and know that both platforms need different strategies. But we are still also figuring out our short strategy right now. We've been trying to post a lot more on Instagram and those kind of platforms. and I haven't figured it out yet. I'm trying to work with people on that and it's been fun but I think I need a lot more time to make that work. It's been a bit more difficult I think because attention span on those kind of videos is just very different from long-form videos and it takes a very different way of scripting. It's not really my style so I find it hard to adapt to that but I'm trying, we're trying.

[00:18:34.284] Kent Bye: Yeah, and just in terms of becoming a full-time content creator, are you able to make a good viable living from only getting the revenue from the ads? Or do you have to do other services to developers to do either sponsored content or other consulting gigs to help make it all work to being a full-time creator?

[00:18:53.348] Cas: Yes, well YouTube used to pay us more like during COVID times it was like great times for just doing YouTube ads and that was enough for us but nowadays it's like nothing compared to that so we have to take sponsored videos which is I think the biggest primary source of income and then next to it we also try doing other things with developers like playtesting or helping them host events or going to events and doing stuff there. I'm also thinking about picking up more of the advisory roles and consultancies, as you talked about. Yeah, there's a lot to do and also speaking opportunities. Thankfully, with the channel where you have a certain amount of subscribers, we get a lot of emails and a lot of opportunities sent to us. So I guess we're really lucky to have that because like every day we get like 30 emails of people who are offering something to us. So there's always something that we could like talk about and do something. So that's been great.

[00:19:51.328] Kent Bye: In terms of like just a little bit more context for how you're helping navigate all that.

[00:19:57.023] Chary: I think Cass does it pretty well herself. I have more the mental support. You know what it is, if she ever has questions, if she wants to check something, I'll be there. Because Cass is pretty good at these things. She knows what to do, she makes good friends, she has a good process for all her things. And if there's an opinion she needs, I'll be there.

[00:20:19.146] Cas: I always need her opinion because sometimes I'm a bit direct. She's more soft-spoken, more friendly than me. So I always let her check all my emails before I send them to help out. She always reminds me of stuff. Sometimes I forget to follow up on something and she'll be the one who tells me, don't forget to follow up on that and all kinds of things.

[00:20:41.497] Chary: Yeah, that's true. Yeah, yeah, that's true. But she's pretty good at it herself. It's just like the one in ten times, that's it.

[00:20:49.382] Cas: Because we're with two people, sometimes I just don't have enough time to do something and she'll take over and help me out.

[00:20:57.728] Chary: She mostly just asks me, do you have time to do that for me this month? And I'm like, yeah, I'll make time for that. Yeah, yeah, true.

[00:21:04.909] Cas: That's what I forgot to say. We also do some more user-generated content where we don't post it on our channels, but developers or companies could use for their own marketing purposes. That's what we help out as well. And next week we're doing a game trailer where we're the actors in the trailer. And it's a VR game, so that's also pretty exciting. We've done a couple of those as well.

[00:21:26.402] Kent Bye: So do you mean like creating both B-roll footage for the developers to use, but also like photopopper trailers?

[00:21:32.918] Cas: Yes, so basically they have like a DLC coming out and we're helping them make the trailer. There will be camera people and someone else gonna edit it, but we'll be in the trailer showing off that DLC.

[00:21:45.151] Kent Bye: OK. Great. Well, I know each year at Connect, Meta has been bringing out both the press and the creators, and we're all in this same hotel. And so I get to see the process of seeing all the demos and then basically a mad rush to try to edit everything together, to buy the time the keynote is. But I'm just curious to hear a little bit about what that process has been like for you to come in and try to see all the things and then rush to go try to give some first impressions.

[00:22:09.335] Cas: I'm not a fan of that approach. Last year they gave us more days, which was also not enough because our style is just... I take like five days to make a video because I really want the info to be correct and just checked. And I also like to make the video pretty. But what they gave us was a day before the event was the demo and then we only had like 24 hours, less than 24 hours to script and make the video and everything. I don't think that's enough. It was like hard work. We didn't get to hang out with people, we just had to go home and then start editing. Which actually was okay, but I'm not a big fan of it. I wish they gave us more time to do it, to get the right info out to our audiences.

[00:22:52.551] Chary: Yeah, I agree. I think it would be nice. I think last year you also had like a week beforehand you already tried stuff out. So you could prepare like a video or like something. I think that's best because then you also can check up if your information is correct and everything. And then you're sure the information you're giving is 100,000% correct because you're able to just check it like a few days before. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:23:13.877] Cas: I think our information is correct, but the chances are that we might have said something that might not be entirely correct. Maybe someone gave us the wrong info, those kind of things, which I just don't like doing.

[00:23:27.438] Kent Bye: Yeah, I know that one of my complaints is that like we're not seeing what's coming out of the box and we're seeing like with all the accessories and like that wasn't made clear to me until I found out later that someone told me that the breathable mixed reality extension that has a light leakage and I was like oh well this is not so great but then it was like not even the one that's shipping with it so it's like little things like that of just knowing what is coming out of the box with this rather than adding all these additional accessories and giving an impression that may not be what's actually shipping with it so yeah.

[00:23:56.397] Cas: Exactly. Yeah, you're totally right about that. Like, for me, I think someone actually said that came with the box, even though it wasn't. So yeah, those kind of things. I agree with that.

[00:24:07.050] Kent Bye: Great. Well, I guess as we start to wrap up, I'd love to hear what each of you think the ultimate potential of virtual reality might be and what it might be able to enable.

[00:24:16.431] Cas: Well, nowadays, I've been spending the most time in VR working, mixed reality, and I really see the potential there. It's been amazing to just do the 2D apps, maybe together with other things that you can do in VR. Exactly what Meta is planning on doing for the future. And I totally believe in that as well. It's going to replace our devices eventually, and you only need your headset to be productive. And I would love that to happen.

[00:24:45.305] Kent Bye: Just to clarify, are you using the MetaQuest 3 or are you using Apple Vision Pro for that?

[00:24:50.000] Cas: I'm using the Vision Pro for that because Quest is trying to do the same thing, I know. But the Vision Pro and the Apple ecosystem is just integrated so well. It's so easy to do anything, just simple stuff. Also, copy-pasting text, for example, for my MacBook to native apps in the Vision Pro works so well. I don't think that will happen yet on Quest. But those kind of little things is what Apple excels at. So I really hope we're all going into that direction because it's been fantastic.

[00:25:20.522] Kent Bye: So you're using it like every day or just like a lot for your workflow?

[00:25:24.733] Cas: Almost every day, yes. Yeah, still. Nice.

[00:25:28.576] Kent Bye: Great.

[00:25:28.776] Chary: I think she's more in her vision pro than that she's talking to me, to be honest. I don't know. But I think with VR, I want to see VR go. I think it's just being more immersed, like getting more accessories, everything. Just like Ready Player One. I think that's always what we said. We love to have that, that you're actually like with your whole body, you feel everything. And that's maybe more the entertaining part. And I think you're more like the productivity part, what you're looking forward to as well. So I think I'm looking forward to the entertaining part and social as well, how that will work out together.

[00:25:58.538] Kent Bye: Do you have anything else that's left unsaid or any final thoughts that you have for the immersive community?

[00:26:05.602] Chary: I'll say keep on playing in VR. Keep on doing VR. VR, AR, everything.

[00:26:09.985] Kent Bye: And where can people find you?

[00:26:13.126] Cas: You can find us on YouTube if you look for Cast and Cherry XR.

[00:26:19.318] Kent Bye: Awesome. Well, Cass and Cherry, thanks so much for joining me today on the podcast to help break down a little bit more of your journey into the space and what's happening in the content creator ecosystem. And yeah, just really appreciate all your perspectives and very much enjoy watching your videos over the years. So thanks again for joining me here on the podcast. So thank you.

[00:26:34.417] Chary: Of course. Thank you, Cass. Thank you so much for your time. Thanks.

[00:26:39.090] Kent Bye: Thanks again for listening to the Voices of VR podcast, and I would like to invite you to join me on my Patreon. I've been doing the Voices of VR for over 10 years, and it's always been a little bit more of like a weird art project. I think of myself as like a knowledge artist, so I'm much more of an artist than a business person. But at the end of the day, I need to make this more of a sustainable venture. Just $5 or $10 a month would make a really big difference. I'm trying to reach $2,000 a month or $3,000 a month right now. I'm at $1,000 a month, which means that's my primary income. And I just need to get it to a sustainable level just to even continue this oral history art project that I've been doing for the last decade. And if you find value in it, then please do consider joining me on the Patreon at patreon.com slash voices of VR. Thanks for listening.

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