I interviewed Walk to Westerbork director Mary Matheson remotely ahead of the SXSW XR Experience 2024. See more context in the rough transcript below.
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Rough Transcript
[00:00:05.412] Kent Bye: The Voices of VR Podcast. Hello, my name is Kent Bye, and welcome to the Voices of VR podcast. It's a podcast that looks at the structures and forms of immersive storytelling and the future of spatial computing. You can support the podcast at patreon.com slash Voices of VR. So continuing on my series of looking at different immersive stories from South by Southwest 2024, today's episode is with a piece called Walk to Westerbork by Mary Matheson. So this is a part of what was being called the Journey Back Trilogy, which is a number of different pieces that were produced by the Illinois Holocaust Museum. And so this piece is telling the story of a Dutch Jewish Holocaust survivor and features lots of different 360 degree video shots of Amsterdam, some CGI segments and virtual projection mapping and overall just amazing job of telling the story using all the different affordances of XR. So that's what we're covering on today's episode of the Voices of VR podcast. So this interview with Mary happened on Wednesday, March 6th, 2024. So with that, let's go ahead and dive right in.
[00:01:09.965] Mary Matheson: So I am Mary Matheson. I'm a journalist really by trade and began using virtual reality in 2016 for my documentary filmmaking. I've really been involved mostly with creating documentaries for impact. So working alongside nonprofits or the United Nations to create usually short form documentaries that might be part of an advocacy campaign or a public education campaign, that kind of thing. So really, when I saw Clouds Over Sidra, In 2015, I kind of understood the power that VR could give me as a creator, as a director, to bring my audiences and characters together. So that's when I switched into VR. And since then, I've kind of worked for all kinds of clients ranging from, again, nonprofits, but also actually the larger tech companies like Google, Lenovo, and YouTube. Really, it's kind of been a broad range, always documentaries on the whole that I've been making. And since 2020, I've also been working as a professor, teaching and mentoring other people, introducing them to immersive storytelling. I very much come from the background of the storytelling and the narrative as opposed to the technology. And I started off in the UK doing that. And now I work alongside Nonny de la Pena, working in a program here that we've set up in Los Angeles for Arizona State University. So we have a film school here in Los Angeles and have set up a narrative and emerging media program. The flagship of that is a master's. really for people who are also creators, directors, and artists rather than creative technologists. So we don't create developers at the end of it, although the students will actually learn obviously all the beautiful and wonderful techniques and technologies that they can use to tell their stories.
[00:03:13.692] Kent Bye: Right. And yeah, you shared a little bit about your journey into VR, but I always like to ask people to add a little bit more context as to your background and your journey into VR.
[00:03:22.882] Mary Matheson: So whenever I made documentaries, I was often making documentaries about other countries. So when I was a journalist, I started off my career as a journalist in Latin America, in Colombia and Venezuela. And so I was kind of always telling stories about other countries or other lands and always trying to find a connection really between audiences in the US or the UK to tell those stories. And sometimes it was quite difficult because I was often telling stories about areas of the world that might not be very relevant or might not seem very relevant to British or American audiences. I was often in countries like Bangladesh or, you know, Nepal, Pakistan, and then, you know, parts of Africa that, you know, that are really sort of lesser known. So countries like Guinea or Cote d'Ivoire, and really telling a lot of stories about women and girls in particular. So, you know, I was always struggling with trying to tell that story in a way that would be really compelling for a British and American audience to really sort of identify with the characters as people, not as a victim, let's say, or not as some foreigner or, you know, to really sort of connect on a human level. And I guess what was so transformative for me personally when I watched VR for the first time was that instead of bringing those characters into our worlds, suddenly I was able to really bring my audience into the world of the characters. You know, I think also part of my practice really developed over the years where I really started to co-create my work with the characters. So I really wanted them to be involved in the creative process as much as they wanted to be, to sort of really give them much more agency. And I feel like that converged with learning about virtual reality and using VR techniques. so that actually not only was I kind of bringing my audiences into their world, but actually the characters were able to talk for themselves and tell their story themselves in a way that felt incredibly real.
[00:05:26.221] Kent Bye: Yeah. And so you have a piece that's showing here at South by Southwest that actually was produced in a trilogy of different pieces that were commissioned from the Illinois Holocaust Museum. Maybe you could give a little bit more background context for how this project came about for you.
[00:05:44.352] Mary Matheson: Yeah, so, I mean, the other two directors, Darren Emerson and Charlotte Mikkelborg are great friends, but also I really admired them as creators, you know, as directors. They both come from a sort of documentary tradition as well. So we very much knew each other's work and they initially approached me actually, East City Films approached me, but I was busy working on another project and I just couldn't do it and I just had moved to the States. So I knew that I wasn't gonna be able to commit to it. And then their third director dropped out at one point, and they just sent me a message on the off chance that I would be free. And by that point, actually, I was free. And I really jumped at the chance, you know, both to tell one of these stories, I didn't know at that point which one it would be, but also to work alongside the team at East City Films, and particularly Darren and Charlotte. The Illinois Holocaust Museum is really, really fascinating. They do very deep work around, obviously, Holocaust memorial, but also around general genocide prevention. And a lot of my work has been around human rights. And actually, one of my most recent pieces was about a genocide of the Yazidi people in northern Iraq. So I was really keen to do something as well that was obviously about preserving the memory and keeping alive this horrific time in our history, but at the same time being used as a preventative measure really around genocide in our day.
[00:07:21.212] Kent Bye: Yeah. And so having seen all three of the pieces now, I saw Letters from John C. at Venice Immersive, where it premiered, and then had a chance to watch the other two, your piece, Walk to Westerbork, as well as Escape to Shanghai. And what I was really struck by is the visual consistency of some of the different techniques of projecting images onto the buildings. And we can dig into some of the more technical aspects. But before we do that, I wanted to get a little bit more sense of how each of the stories got developed. And my understanding was that there was at least some of the stories that were presented to Darren and maybe he had first choice being the owner of East City Films, but maybe you could talk about how each of these stories came about and then how you each figured out your own way to find your own story and your own through line, but also have like an overall consistency throughout each of the projects.
[00:08:13.041] Mary Matheson: Yeah, well, actually, so given how I came into the project, I was the last on board. There was only one choice for me. I mean, I think, yeah, you know, Darren, obviously, as part of East City Films, he chose the story that was probably most resonant for him. And then Charlotte actually has a background. She lived in China as a journalist for a while. So it was obvious that she would do the story of Doris Fogel and Shanghai. And so really, I came in at the end and was given Rhodey Glass's story. But I think what's really interesting, actually, is that we each formed a really incredible bond with the characters. And it feels like it was right. Each one of us was sort of very suited to the character whose story we were sharing. I mean, one of the most incredible things about this whole series actually has been working with two other directors. I haven't really had that experience before. I mean, I did lead direct a Lenovo series where we did, in fact, have other directors on board too. But I guess because I knew Darren and Charlotte so well, it was actually just a really deep experience. actually getting to work with them and sort of discuss each character's story. And we came out together, all three of us, and did initial interviews with our three characters. And those interviews lasted about four hours. So they were really pretty in-depth. But the fact that we kind of were all there together, we all then discussed, we all were present while the other person was doing the interviews. Obviously, we were in another room, but we were all listening. And I think, you know, very much Darren did take the lead, of course, Darren and Ash. Cowan as well, you know, in terms of their sort of thought process of what this series was going to be about. But it was really a very unique experience to be able to share those ideas creatively. So we all sort of sat and spoke about what our initial thoughts were. Obviously, we knew that we wanted to take each one of these wonderful women back to a particular area that was relevant to them and film some 360 projections is just such a great way of bringing in archive. I've definitely used that technique before in work that I've done with docs too, where you're sort of trying to bring to life a still photograph or 2D footage. So, you know, we all knew we were kind of wanting to explore that area. And then we also knew we wanted to use some animation, but that was very interesting because we were keen to have a kind of thread that might go through all three films, but we wanted to have an individual style that was suited to both the story, the character and ourselves, you know, but we continue to share with each other as we develop those ideas. So again, it was really lovely to have other directors as a sounding board for my ideas. around visuals, especially. But actually, as we went on, even with music as well, we all sort of shared ideas with each other around the music too. And, you know, as I say, I really felt like that was a real gift, to be honest. It felt very special. I really felt very lucky to sort of have that collaboration really with the other two directors.
[00:11:37.081] Kent Bye: Yeah. Each of the stories are very unique in the way that they unfold and the way that they're told, but there's also a lot of 360 video mixed up with CGI, with the VR affordances of that. And in your case, you are also going into Amsterdam and showing a lot of really beautiful shots of the city, but you're taking Rhodey back to Amsterdam to some of these different locations. And so my understanding was that each of these protagonists that are being featured in each of these three films have some connection to like they're in Illinois, and that they were Jewish and that they had escaped the Holocaust. And so this was an opportunity to tell some of the other types of stories, how the Holocaust impacted their lives. And so you're able to go back into these locations. And so as you were trying to sort out going back into this Amsterdam and telling the story, maybe you could just elaborate a little bit more as to the overall arc of how you wanted to tell the story.
[00:12:35.292] Mary Matheson: Yeah, I mean, so in the case of Rody, it was very important to her actually to tell the story of the Dutch Jewish experience during the Holocaust. It's a kind of lesser known story that 102,000 Dutch Jews were killed, which was 75% of the Dutch community. So it was a really significant, and I think it's one of the highest number, you know, in terms of ratio. And so that was very important to her. She now lives in Chicago, as you say, quite rightly. All three characters now live in that area. Well, sadly, Doris passed away recently, which makes it all the more significant that her story was captured So with Rody, I think I really wanted to try and go back to Amsterdam to explore what her life had been like before. So we filmed in two locations in the Netherlands. The first was Amsterdam itself, where she had grown up. And, you know, it's bang in the middle of the red light area of Amsterdam now. So that's kind of a slightly odd, you know, experience really to sort of be trying to tell this very serious story about the Holocaust. But on the other hand, here it is, you know, this area of Amsterdam now is like full of people drinking and partying. you know, and tech workers. So that was a kind of slightly strange thing, but we wanted to take her back there. She wanted to go. She goes back to Holland every year. So she's incredible. I mean, you know, she's 87 years old, but she's absolutely full of life. And, you know, it was an obvious thing for us to go back there. You know, she knew exactly where her house was. The shop that her grandfather had owned was literally across the street. And then also it was really important for us to go back to Westerbork itself. So that's the detention center that she was held at three times. It was basically where all the Jews from the Netherlands, but also from surrounding areas, they were all shipped there or transported there before then being transported to the east, to the concentration camps. So it was a sort of holding center. So that was also a really important part of the story that I wanted to be able to tell. But I think what was really important when I met her and when I heard her story was that I also just wanted to tell this story of this incredibly vibrant, joyful woman who is just full of love. You know, often the story arc, you know that you're going to begin, I always knew I was going to begin with the story around the birthday party, because she told me about that in the interview at the beginning, because it was the last time that her family was together. It was her birthday party. It's the last time she sees her uncle Max, who did this Punch and Judy show for her for her party. And, you know, I knew that was a significant moment for her. So I really wanted to begin with it. And it was only sort of towards the end, really, where we decided to film, you know, I wanted to film her with her family in Chicago. And it's just sometimes one of those things that as a journalist or director, things sort of fall a bit in your lap because you say, well, you know, can we gather your family together? And they all came from different parts of the world. And she was like, oh, yeah, you know, it's my great grandson's birthday. So that would be really nice to have him. And I was like, oh, great. Hang on. How old is he? And, you know, so all these things started to fall into place. And, you know, really that felt also like a great ending for the story, right? That I wanted to be able to convey this feeling that I got from her, which was about obviously survival, but actually more than survival, it was that she had really lived her life to the full, that she had spent her life as a party planner, you know, celebrating life, bringing joy to everybody, and family, you know, and that this, although half of her family died in the Holocaust, they were murdered, her father's family, entire family were killed. You know, she survived and thrived. I really wanted that part to top and tail the story. And then obviously, the story in between to kind of reveal the story of her family, but also that Dutch Jewish experience that was sort of lesser known.
[00:16:56.470] Kent Bye: Yeah, and one of the striking things about this piece that I thought was a real great use of the spatial medium was how you're able to overlay past photos with the current context. And so I know that Darren Emerson, he had a piece called Common Ground where he was really starting to play with doing like projection map type of techniques where you might have archival footage, but it's projected onto a spatial context. And that was one of the technical aspects that I really noticed how that was carried through into Letters from Chauncey, but also Escape from Shanghai and Walk to Rustenburg was that there was this similar type of use of mixed media, but projected into some sort of spatial context. And specifically the ones that really were striking to me were the ways in which you were taking these archival photos and overlaying how that space had changed over time. So I'd love to hear you elaborate on that process a little bit of taking some of this archival footage and blending the past with the present
[00:17:56.710] Mary Matheson: Yeah, I mean, I think one thing that is really striking about Rody is that she has kept everything. So we had an incredible archive of family photos and documents from her. And I think that the thing that was really striking to me about that as somebody who isn't Jewish, was that When I asked her about it, I was like, my God, Rody, she had like so much. I was like, you kept everything. And she said to me, yeah, you know, I had to prove it happened. It's really important to prove that it happened, which really sort of hit me like a stone. I just couldn't believe that she still felt like she had to justify what had happened in her life. So, you know, I thought it's really important to remember that. As we saw all these incredible images that she had, I really had it in mind that I wanted to make sure that we were supporting that for her. There were some really kind of fun moments trying to, you know, work out. It's like a puzzle where because we could bring to life these, you know, locations with her photos, and sometimes we had more than one in the same location, so we could really build it out. And I mean, that also helped with the animation scenes, to be honest with you as well. But I think that it's kind of a way sometimes, especially in the comic book shop, which again is a really bizarre kind of location to be talking about the Holocaust or to be talking about memories, but it didn't really matter. It's like all those comics kind of fade into the background when you see the photos and they kind of seem to take over. When you project like that, it sort of takes you back, basically, and you're using a simple 2D image to actually create a 3D world. And I think that, as you say, that's kind of been developed over the years, and I think now we really could use it. I mean, I chose locations. Some of them were obvious like that, OK? So you choose where the counter used to be in her grandfather's store. But then when it came to showing, for example, the footage of her as a little girl when she was being liberated by the Americans and she peeks behind the flag, there were these really disused areas in Vittel in France where she sort of stayed finally. And that was actually a prisoner of war camp. And they had these sort of rundown buildings and this fence. It just reminded me of them peeking through the fence at the American soldiers. So that's why I kind of decided to line up some shots against that fence to almost make it look like you were the American soldier seeing them, you know, and cheering for you and kind of taking you back again to that time. So again, just trying to sort of create that three-dimensional world with the two-dimensional images.
[00:20:54.812] Kent Bye: Yeah. And, you know, as you're talking about those images of her family and their scenes were goodies at like a Holocaust memorial with bricks and being able to say that these represent all of her family. And I think each of the different pieces in this trilogy have some connection to Holocaust memorials, but I feel like that's having a spatial architecture that's already there to elaborate on that point.
[00:21:23.095] Mary Matheson: Yeah, exactly. And that's also, you know, when you go to a memorial like that, you know, just as somebody who's going to visit, it's incredibly moving. You know, the thousands of names is really overwhelming. But going with Rhody, where she sort of is visiting her family, basically. And she sort of says, it's like a cemetery to me. And it was quite overwhelming. I mean, there were some moments where, you know, we have to be careful with them too, and be really cognizant of the fact that this is an incredibly overwhelming experience for them as well. I mean, Rhody does go back every year, as I say, and I know that that memorial is actually quite new. So it's not like we were taking her back there for the first time, but you can feel the heaviness when you're with her, you know, as she sort of points out different people and touches their stones. It's a very, very moving moment.
[00:22:19.870] Kent Bye: And there also seems to be different Holocaust memorials that are spread throughout some of these different locations. In your piece in particular, there was like some of the train cars that are like just in a park, but you're able to also project onto that some of those archival footage as well, as she's just walking through the park next to this train that was responsible for taking people out East or to the Holocaust or to these other concentration camps. Yeah, I'd love to have you maybe elaborate on that specific memorial as well.
[00:22:51.550] Mary Matheson: Yeah, so that was actually in Westerbork itself. And, you know, I think, again, it's incredibly powerful when you go there to see this train carriage that you know, has actually carried people and carried people to their deaths. And so, you know, again, it's the sort of power of virtual reality that I thought, right, I could really bring this to life, both by taking you there, you know, visually, and so, you know, placing you in the scene as the audience, but then walking alongside Rhody as she walks by. And by Because we have 2D footage of this actual camp and also of people being put onto the trains, I kind of wanted to bring it to life, you know, and bring the people there. And so it's almost like a memory as she's walking by. It's like I wanted it to feel a bit like it was her remembering, so that you were seeing the carriage and the people who were actually put on these carriages and taken to their deaths. So, you know, it was a very poignant moment, as you can imagine. And so really, I was trying to bring the audience there alongside her to remember with her.
[00:24:02.447] Kent Bye: And I imagine by now that Rhody has had a chance to see it, but maybe you could talk about some of her reactions to the piece.
[00:24:11.338] Mary Matheson: Yeah, I mean, she probably swore when she took it off first, because she's quite like that. But she was really, really moved by it. I think it was very powerful for her to be taken back and to sort of relive those moments again. You know, I'd worked really hard with her and her brilliant memory to reconstruct some of those animated scenes. So, you know, we searched on the internet to look for what her sofa could look like. and she was really specific about her mother's taste and decor so she said you got it right you know when she she was like i can't believe how right you got that you know so i think it was very powerful for her i think that You know, it was also deeply moving because some of the themes really took her back to times that were very difficult. You know, visiting Westerbork was quite hard for her. And it's interesting, you know, if you do, I don't know if you ever plan to talk to them, but, you know, she's a very strong character. When I described her at first, when I was writing the treatment, you know, I called her firebrand, you know, she's fun, full of life. also takes no prisoners. So, you know, actually seeing the weight of going to Westerbork again and revisiting memories was quite hard. You know, I worried about her and I'm sure it was the same with both Doris and Marion too. You know, when you take somebody back to these sorts of times, and I do this a lot in the sort of documentaries that I'm making, you know, the idea isn't a that I don't want to traumatize my audience. I just certainly don't want to traumatize my characters either, you know, the protagonist. So there's a fine line to be walked between creating something where you can generate a feeling that you want your audience to feel by hearing this story, but actually not wanting to make it, you know, we don't want to traumatize people. So, but I think she's found the whole experience really interesting. She's got herself now a quest three and, you know, wants to be able to show people, as I say, she's incredibly lively for somebody who's 87, especially she's going back to the Netherlands and she wants to take it and show it to her friends there.
[00:26:24.109] Kent Bye: Is there a quest version?
[00:26:26.731] Mary Matheson: That's right. Yes. They've created a quest version. I haven't seen that myself yet. So, but I'm kind of excited just to be able to make it easier to show people, you know,
[00:26:37.253] Kent Bye: Right. Yeah. Cause the Illinois Holocaust Museum has the five pros and with these PC VRS. And so they're able to push the fidelity of a lot of these experiences. And so I had a chance to see the PC VR version here at home, but. maybe you could elaborate a little bit more about the process of adding in these animations, because I feel like in your piece, it seems to have a little bit more of a central role in terms of like some key beats in the story, whereas I think in the letters from John C, there's some more interstitial moments, but I feel like there's some opening parts, but also other parts of actually walking to Westerbork. So maybe you could talk a bit about the process of designing these and the style you want to do, but also integrating that part to be a compliment to some of these things that you couldn't capture with, say, 360 video.
[00:27:25.308] Mary Matheson: Yeah, I really, really enjoyed this part of the process. I come from a film background and totally fell in love with 360. When I made that series for The Female Planet for Google, I just was so enthralled with 360 film. But On this occasion, actually, the 360 film was great again, but the area that I particularly enjoyed was developing the animation scenes with this company, All Seeing Eye. They come out of Bristol in the UK. I'm sure you've spoken to them or certainly reviewed their work in the past. They're very good. So, I started off working with them, you know, I guess there were two things that we wanted to do. I mean, one was a bit like Darren, especially with his piece Letters to Drancy with Marion's story. We both kind of felt like we wanted to have an animation style that was a little bit abstract. So we didn't want to try and recreate photoreal. So that was something that was kind of important to both Darren and myself. And, you know, I kind of wanted them to feel like memories, so a little bit sketchy. And, you know, again, this was kind of interesting going back to your question about how we kind of worked together. And, you know, he and I sort of actually really shared ideas about the animation style that we wanted. We both had come up with this idea around a kind of charcoal that was a bit smudgy. And I, in my research, came across an artist called William Kentridge, and he uses charcoal. He's also quite elderly himself now, and he uses stop motion animation with his charcoal sketches. And I really thought this could be an interesting way to create a sense of movement as well, when actually the characters might not be moving very much in the story, but it kind of creates a kind of life to the story, to the characters, you know, to the scene, if you have this kind of sketching as well. So that style was really something that we took a long time developing, both with Darren, you know, in terms of what that looks like in 2D, but then with the animation team as well. So that's how we developed that style. And then, you know, it felt like there were these key moments that I really wanted to recreate that were very powerful for Rhodey. So the first was obviously the birthday party, as I've spoken about. And then there was another scene actually in the shop, where again, I just felt it really lent itself to being in a 3D environment that was animated. Because, you know, from a child's perspective and from her memory, what she sort of described were the sounds and the shadows. It was the sound of the goose steps that she says she'll never forget walking outside the shop, the store. But also there were the sort of shadows of the soldiers that are cast across the ceiling and on the walls. And again, you know, it was terrifying for her as a five or six year old. And it's kind of, I wanted to create that, that there were these looming shadows basically inside. And I felt like the animation could do that really, really well. And with the walk itself, and this is where the story gets its name is, and the scene was something that became very powerful for people. And actually, this is one that Rhody herself mentioned that, you know, when I'm teaching as well, I'm always sort of talking to my students about creating, when you're creating a scene, it's about, you know, what is the feeling that you're trying to convey to your audience? And that's where I often start and then build out from there in terms of the visuals and the world. And so I kind of felt like she was tiny. The first time she got taken to detention center, she was six years old. So, you know, what did that feel like to be kind of trudging through the mud in a forest? with her parents holding her hands, you know, and then all these other people all around you, like crowds around you with everybody just with their one bag. And then again, just the shadows, the dogs, the shouting, you know, these are the things that she mentioned. And I kind of wanted also to, again, bring in the images, the real images that we have of people during that time. So I kind of placed those behind the trees for you as the viewer to be able to kind of see as you went along to, again, it's almost like you're putting faces to these shadows, you know. And then sort of finally, because the museum, they wanted to have eight people at a time. So they didn't want too much interactivity in the sense that, you know, your agency is for you as the viewer. They didn't want the viewers to have controllers. So I thought, well, she'd kept this flashlight all these years. She still has the flashlight that she had. And I kind of originally had wanted that for you to be able to sort of show the flashlight, you know, and point the light towards faces or towards the images. But because we couldn't have the controllers, I then thought, well, actually, I could use the eye tracking and head tracking. And so that's where that came from, that actually you cast a light wherever you look and it'll shine a light on either the other avatars or on the images. So, I think it really enabled me to create these worlds, the animated scenes, and then, you know, the final one is actually where they're in the barrack. And, you know, that's quite a hard, that's quite an expensive scene to develop if you're really developing this big barrack with, you know, hundreds of women in it. So, you know, again, I worked with that team to sort of just create the feeling of crowdedness. And again, using sound, which is one of my favorite discoveries of VR. And as a director, I just love the fact that I can now use sound in an even more powerful way than I could as a 2D 16 by 9 director. you know, you can sort of use the sound to create that crowd. But again, I felt like it was really important to take you inside the barracks, because we just can't imagine what that was like. And, you know, as ever with these stories, it's so difficult to sort of decide which part of the story to tell. And actually, What was most important for me to tell of that scene was the small piece of power that you can keep as a human being when you're captured, let's say, and held against your will. And the small piece of power that her mother and her aunt had was that they were determined that she wouldn't get lice and that she wouldn't have her head shaved. And so what I could tell by building the world and just giving you a sense of the dreariness of it and the horrendous conditions and the overcrowding. So instead of saying that, I can create it in the world using our brilliant virtual reality for that. And then it meant that I could tell this one story of that tiny piece of power that you can keep and that tiny little victory that you can have over your captors in a single moment.
[00:34:37.572] Kent Bye: Yeah, that was a really great recap of a lot of the key moments of both the story, but also the animation and how it's playing out. One quick follow-up on the flashlight scene when you're walking to Westerbork, is that flashlight direction, is it tied to both head position and eye tracking?
[00:34:56.527] Mary Matheson: No, I think it's just your head position. It's just the head position.
[00:35:00.188] Kent Bye: Okay. I have to go back and check it. Cause I was doing it on an index and I was meant for the Vive Pro. So then I was like, I didn't know if there was like a technological glitch. So I'll have to check that out again.
[00:35:10.711] Mary Matheson: Yeah. Go and have fun with that. Cause it just means you can really look around a bit more and it will spotlight. In particular, it's good for looking at the archive images.
[00:35:20.413] Kent Bye: Okay. And, you know, the other thing that I just wanted to elaborate on just for a moment was the scene when they are in the shop and they're listening to the Nazi armies walking outside with the sound of that and reminds me of like Steven Spielberg around Jaws where you don't see the actual shark. but you get the tension of that. And I feel like that was a moment where you don't see the soldiers, but actually it was way more powerful to have that experience of being inside and not able to actually see anything, but just to hear what was happening outside. It was that psychological terror or that creepiness of that sound.
[00:35:55.348] Mary Matheson: Yeah, I think exactly. And as you say, you know, the fear of not seeing is actually quite terrifying as well, and the unknown. I think, again, what was very interesting about Rody's story, and for me myself to learn about, was that actually, even when they went to Westerbork, they didn't know what was going to happen. They didn't know what was going to happen when the Nazis came into Amsterdam. That fear of the unknown as well, which again, becomes even greater, doesn't it? When you can't see something, but you can hear it as well. I really wanted to try and recreate that feeling of fear. So I'm glad that you felt that when you watched it.
[00:36:37.658] Kent Bye: And there was another scene where you're using 360 video, but also doing a mixed media where you're like in the middle of a courtyard within Amsterdam, and you have all these archival photos of these Nazi soldiers or police who, as you're standing there in the middle, those archival photos continue to pop up, but they're getting closer and closer, creating this sense of claustrophobia. So I'd love to have you maybe elaborate on the development of that scene.
[00:37:04.905] Mary Matheson: Yeah. So, you know, again, this was one of those situations where that square was very important. And, you know, it was a place that people used to walk. So the sort of descriptions of what life was like before are very interesting. You know, obviously with Rhody herself, she just was very family oriented. On a Sunday, they'd all go for a walk. Everybody would go for a walk and you'd see your neighbors and your friends, you know, and you'd chat to them. So I kind of wanted to juxtapose that with then her description of suddenly the restrictions that were introduced. So again, I wasn't aware of the intricacies of how the Nazis started to introduce the restrictions and finally ended up sort of making everybody who is Jewish register their names. So I absolutely wanted to create this sense that you were just being hemmed in, that it was claustrophobic and that you were fish in a barrel, as she describes it at the end, and there's nothing you can do. You can't escape. you know, with all of these various restrictions that sort of came into play. And then finally, you know, having to register your names was like the final moment. And then, of course, after that, they come knocking at your door and take you away. So, you know, that goes into the next scene.
[00:38:19.908] Kent Bye: Yeah, one of the other things I really appreciated about this piece was just how much amazing footage you're able to capture of Amsterdam as a city, because you're there with Rody walking around, taking shots, recounting different aspects, but also you were able to give quite a virtual tour of Amsterdam as a city and have some really nice like drone shots in there as well. And so I'd love to have you maybe elaborate on the process of trying to capture the spirit of Amsterdam in this piece as well.
[00:38:47.232] Mary Matheson: Yeah, I think that's always, again, you know, one of the great advantages of 360 film or VR in general, which is that, you know, you can really sort of recreate that cityscape in a way that obviously you can try with a 16 by nine film and it's been done brilliantly by some great filmmakers, but it's actually a really wonderful thing to be able to develop and work out, okay, what's iconic in Amsterdam and you know, the canals obviously are really important, but they were important because she was actually from that area as well. And that's where she'd grown up. So in a way, it felt a very natural thing for us to do to sort of, you know, film her walking around that area because it's where, you know, that was her home. And I think the sort of thing that definitely Darren and Charlotte also are keen to do is kind of use those beautiful cinematic shots as well. I really love to use slow movement and drones or zip wires. On this occasion, we had a bit of fun with, there's a shot of Rhodey on a bridge and we kind of move away from her. And it becomes a wide shot as she leaves Amsterdam before she goes to America. And actually that shot was filmed on a boat. So we had to use a boat rather than a drone. We weren't allowed drones in that area. So, you know, it was a great piece of gaffering and we ended up trying all different ways of, you know, the boat, because actually boats often move forwards before they move backwards. And so it ended up being two of our lovely crew just pushing the boat off the bridge to give it this lovely gliding shot that you can get. So, you know, it's always fun. We have a load of fun with shooting 360 because you're, you know, always experimenting and trying to see what could work and what gives you, you, you know, the shot you want, but how on earth are you going to get it? You know, we couldn't, we would have used a zip wire, but there weren't the locations to actually hook the wire onto in this place. So the boat was the natural thing on this occasion, you know?
[00:40:55.468] Kent Bye: Okay. So a little bit of movie magic there. Cause my first thought was like, this feels like this on a boat. And then I looked down and I was like, oh, there's the water. It must be. Oh, that's great. Nice, nice job there. There's one other part that I want to kind of wrap up on in terms of the story parts of this piece, which is that the father was an owner of a shop. And so leather shop was able to kind of hide away some money, which ends up being a pretty key turning point of having the resources to buy these tickets that allowed them to escape from Resterbork a couple of times. And then the third time they're sent to another location. And also there's this moment where if Rhodey and her mother indicated that they have some sort of connection to their father, then they may have been also shipped off out east into concentration camps. So there seemed to be a number of these moments where it really could have gone the other way, where she could have gone into the concentration camps like three or four other times that it could have like not ended up even her surviving to be able to tell this story. So there seemed to be like this chance element that they were able to come through and have these different moments of reprieve or escape that came through. And so maybe you could talk about how you're able to both tell that aspect of the story, but also visually start to have this blending and blurring of reality with the rails, kind of have this potential future of what could have happened, but also the fates that intervene and allow a different story to unfold.
[00:42:28.740] Mary Matheson: Yeah, totally. I mean, you hit the nail on the head, really, in terms of the fact that, you know, chance takes place in, I'm sure, many survivor stories. But Rhody certainly says, look, you know, it was down to luck that she and her very immediate family survived, but also risk-taking. So, I mean, they have incredible brushes with death, basically. So, It's actually her grandfather who's the one who owns the shop. He basically hides money with leather merchants in the south of the country. First of all, the first time they get taken to Westerbork, what happens is their names get called. Another thing that really struck me is that she said, oh, every Tuesday night. There's a kind of routine to it. Every Tuesday night, people's names would be called. And one Tuesday night, their name was called, and that meant that they would be transported to the east, as we were saying. Again, they didn't know what it was, where they were going. Everybody thought it was a labor camp. They didn't realize that they were extermination camps. So her name is called along with her mother and her father, actually. And as they approach, the guard who is ticking off people's names is a neighbor. He's a former neighbor of theirs. And he indicates to them to not mention that they know him. So they don't say anything, but he scores their name off the list. So they are sent back to the barracks. So it's as if they got it wrong, that their name isn't there. So that's the first time. And again, that's complete chance. Nearly 750 people are put on that train that night from Westerbork to Auschwitz and they are killed. So that's the first time that she escapes death, basically. And then after that, it's this really interesting, and again, one of these kind of unknown stories that obviously her family, they owned a business. So they did have a bit of money. They stored it with people in the South. And they managed to get that money to buy a pass, which is called a spare. I'd never heard of this before, but it's basically a permit, which means that you aren't taken away. And so, you know, they managed to buy one of these things. So, you know, at various stages, they could be reported. So for a start, you know, the person that had the money that was looking after the money for them, they had to trust them that they would, A, give them the money, but B, not report them. And so that worked. And then they have to actually buy the permit as well. So, you know, it is an incredible set of circumstances. And, you know, as ever with real life, it's actually an incredibly sort of difficult and intricate story to tell. It was quite, I found that part harder to tell because it's quite complex. We don't know, you know, it's not a well-known story that, so you have to sort of try and break it down to something where you take out the elements that are really, really important, which are, the chance that they took and the luck that they had. And for her, her grandfather obviously was pretty wealthy. He managed to save 11 members of the family with these permits, but it doesn't always save them. So even though they buy the permit, that gets them a reprieve and then suddenly they get taken back to the camp again. And then the third time, It's actually one of her aunts initially who manages to prove that she was born in the UK and Rhody's mother was also born in the UK, which meant that they could claim that they were prisoners of war. And that's how she's finally released from Westerbork and they get sent to a prisoner of war camp in France. So it's a story of sort of resilience, resourcefulness as well, right? Because you're constantly obviously fighting for your survival, aren't you? So you're trying to work out which way you can survive. And it's not just about surviving by escaping underneath the barbed wire. It's about, okay, how can you get a permit that allows you to be free for a bit longer? Or how can you go and find your British birth certificate and prove that in fact, you're British and you should be a prisoner of war? So, you know, it was a really complex story to try and tell actually. And the most important thing for Rhody was that we understood that her grandfather saved the family you know, that by both his resourcefulness, but also the risk that he took, he saved them all. So that was kind of why I really wanted to, when we were in Westerbork, I thought it was really important to bring this man to life, you know, to see his image. And she's got lovely pictures of him as a little old man. And you can't imagine that this guy, you know, was really an incredible hero for his family and saved them all. So Westerbork seemed to be the good place to tell that story as well, where you have all this symbolism around, you know, the fences and the tracks and that he was the one that released them. He basically freed them in the end.
[00:47:44.502] Kent Bye: Yeah, thanks for elaborating on that because I think that's another dimension of the story that, like you said, isn't well told and you have to find ways of finding the different threads. I'm recounting from my own memory of getting little bits of it, but appreciate the elaboration there. And the thing that I'm really left with was after going through all those chance encounters of survival, you go back to her looking at the memorial and seeing all of her families who didn't make it, but also bookending it with, at the beginning, there's the birthday party where she's with all of her extended family. That was the last time she saw a lot of them. And then you see her extended family with her children, her grandchildren, great-grandchildren at this birthday party. And I was just really struck with how she was able to survive and also have this extended family in a way that so many of her other relatives did not survive and all those families that don't exist. And so I thought that that was also a really nice way of symbolically telling that aspect of survival as well, which I thought was a really powerful way to end it as well.
[00:48:49.248] Mary Matheson: Yeah, as I said, it was really important, I think, for me in terms of this story as well, to just show that she understood how lucky she was. And that because she understood that, she was going to make the most of her life and her family. And that also means kind of retelling this story. I think it can't be easy for her to be always telling this story, but she's taken it upon herself to continue to bear witness. And also, you know, it's very thoughtful about the fact that, you know, of how this can help, not just to sort of honor, preserve and tell those memories and those stories of people who didn't survive, but also as a way of alerting us to what's happening in the world currently, and how can we all work to you know, prevent genocides or, you know, how do we counter hatred with love? And I think I found that really, again, a very emotive and powerful moment with her when I was just interviewing her where she said this, lead with love. And I think, you know, as somebody who very luckily hasn't had to encounter such trauma in my life, I think we think, God, you'd want revenge, wouldn't you? And there must be hatred in your heart for something so horrific to have been part of. So for somebody to come out of that with love, I think is really inspiring and awesome. And I guess I really wanted to make sure I captured that part of her and that that was really what we were all left with at the end of this, was this great love coming from this extraordinary person.
[00:50:33.092] Kent Bye: Yeah, yeah, I really get that sense. And I thought it was telling her story in a way that does justice to all those aspects there. So yeah, I guess as we start to wrap up, I'd love to hear what you think the ultimate potential of virtual reality and immersive storytelling might be and what it might be able to enable.
[00:50:53.292] Mary Matheson: Wow. Well, I mean, I'm very interested in how virtual reality can empower people whose stories are not heard normally to be able to tell their own stories and in their own way, but also for a purpose. I think It's an incredibly powerful way to work towards connections and towards peaceful solutions. Actually, with Nonny at ASU, we're really exploring how to use XR for peace. For me, given my background and my work, I've always worked towards trying to use any kind of media as a tool for creating justice. I think that it's continuing. The fact that we now have the Apple Vision Pro, the Quest 3, there are just numerous ways that we can really use VR in particular. I really love VR. I've used AR as well in my work, but I just think VR and the immersion, the fact that you can bring somebody into a story so that they feel that they are actually there is transformative. As I've said, literally the last piece that I made, which was about the genocide of Yazidis in Northern Iraq, that piece is actually being used by Yazidi groups to you know, lobby for the attack from ISIS to be recognized internationally as a genocide. It's being used as a tool of peace to sort of build understanding within Iraq itself, in sort of Kurdish Iraq. So, you know, I think that the potential is absolutely enormous. And I'm really looking forward to seeing where it can take us in that area in particular.
[00:52:40.661] Kent Bye: Great. And is there anything else that's left unsaid that you'd like to say to the broader immersive community?
[00:52:47.633] Mary Matheson: Yeah, please go along. If you're in South Bay, go along and see each one of these. We have Marion there and also Rhody. Sadly, as I said, Doris died a couple of months ago, but you can actually meet these two wonderful women. So please come along and watch them and also keep supporting each other. I mean, I've been in this business now for eight years and I really love our community. I think it's a very supportive, open community. a lot of love out there for everybody and also just keep supporting each other in the way that we have.
[00:53:22.750] Kent Bye: Awesome. Well, yeah, Mary, thanks so much for joining me here today to help unpack this part of the trilogy where I think there's a lot of unique ways of using the medium of VR with this multi-modality way of blending in 360 video with animation and all the different techniques for how to tell stories within VR. And as we're elaborating here, lots of opportunities to blend the past with the present and also reimagine some of these key sequences of these things would be way beyond the scope and scale of doing a physical recreation, but using the digital recreations to help tell the story. So yeah, just a really powerful project here. And yeah, thanks again for taking the time to help break it all down.
[00:54:03.506] Mary Matheson: Yeah. Thanks for having me, Kent, and for really thoughtful questions. It was really lovely to talk to you.
[00:54:09.336] Kent Bye: So thanks again for listening to this interview. This is usually where I would share some additional takeaways, but I've started to do a little bit more real-time takeaways at the end of my conversations with folks to give some of my impressions. And I think as time goes on, I'm going to figure out how to use XR technologies within the context of the VoicesOfVR.com website itself to do these type of spatial visualizations. So I'm putting a lot of my energy on thinking about that a lot more right now. But if you do want a little bit more in-depth conversations around some of these different ideas around immersive storytelling, I highly recommend a talk that I gave on YouTube. You can search for StoryCon Keynote, Kent Bye. I did a whole primer on presence, immersive storytelling, and experiential design. So, that's all that I have for today, and I just want to thank you all for listening to the Voices of VR podcast. And if you enjoy the podcast, then please do spread the word, tell your friends, and consider becoming a member of the Patreon. This is a listener-supported podcast, and so I do rely upon donations from people like yourself in order to continue to bring you this coverage. So you could become a member and donate today at patreon.com slash voicesofvr. Thanks for listening.
