I interviewed Escape to Shanghai director Charlotte Mikkelborg remotely during SXSW XR Experience 2024. See more context in the rough transcript below.
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Rough Transcript
[00:00:05.452] Kent Bye: The Voices of VR Podcast. Hello, my name is Kent Bye, and welcome to the Voices of VR Podcast. It's a podcast that looks at the structures and forms of immersive storytelling and the future of spatial computing. You can support the podcast at patreon.com slash voicesofvr. So continuing on my series of looking at different experiences that are being featured at South by Southwest 2024, Today's episode is with a piece called Escape to Shanghai, which is a part of a broader trilogy called The Journey Back that was three different immersive documentaries that were produced by the Illinois Holocaust Museum. I've previously covered Letters from Johnsey by Darren Emerson back at Venice 2023 in episode 1,287. It's a really powerful piece that starts to blend together lots of different storytelling affordances of 360 video, cinematic VR with CGI segments and sometimes some interactive components and so definitely recommend going back and listening to that piece and I'll be featuring the other two pieces in that trilogy that were being shown all together at South by Southwest this year. So I'll be starting off with Escape to Shanghai and then diving into Walk to Westerbork but Escape to Shanghai was done by Charlotte Mikkelborg, and it tells the story of one of the families of the 20,000 Jewish refugees who managed to escape Germany to China before everything had shut down. Quite a fascinating story, and each of these different pieces that are a part of this trilogy are using similar affordances of blending together 360 video, cinematic VR, and CGI elements. And so we break down both the process of telling the story, but also some of the elements that were being used to tell the story as well. So, that's what we're covering on today's episode of the Wastes of VR Podcast. So, this interview with Charlotte happened on Saturday, March 9th, 2024. So, with that, let's go ahead and dive right in.
[00:01:53.912] Charlotte Mikkelborg: I am Charlotte Mikkelborg. I have been creating immersive content in addition to my 2D film work since 2015. So a little while now, my goodness, that's nine years. How did that happen? And that has involved a combination of 180 film, 360 film, VR produced in Games Engine, Unity and Unreal, and also a multi-sensory AR game that we launched actually at South by last year. So a really interesting combination of stuff and I am currently show running a very large immersive project that will launch in a month or so, which is a very exciting one. And I look forward to talking to you more about that as time moves on. Great.
[00:02:34.651] Kent Bye: Maybe give a bit more context as to your background and your journey into the space.
[00:02:39.135] Charlotte Mikkelborg: Sure. So I was originally a BBC foreign correspondent. I was Shanghai correspondent until 2009. And then I moved into 2D filmmaking, primarily documentary, but I did do one fictional film that starred Matthew McConaughey, actually worth mentioning as we're in Austin, Texas, and it won Grand Jury here at South By in 2009. So that was fun. But yeah, so I was in the 2D film space, I suppose, between 2009, 2015. And then I was in LA meeting with the producer of Lucy Walker, who's an Oscar-winning documentary maker, you may know. And she was working on a 360 project. And he sort of told me about this. And I said, oh, what's 360? And he sort of described it to me. And I thought, OK, I think I need to see it. So I saw it. And obviously, back then, the quality in terms of the resolution was poor. The headsets were a little bit crappy. But I just could see the potential in this medium in the sense of just immersing you in stories in a way that I didn't feel had been done before. And it really caught my imagination. And it was just a field that I wanted to plunge into and explore more myself. So that's what I did. I managed to get funding from one of the UN bodies, United Nations, to make a project called born into exile. And I put together a team of people, all who had somewhat more experience. I mean, nobody had that much experience in VR at that stage, but more experienced certainly than I did. And I won that bid and we made that film. And that was just a great kind of proving ground, I suppose. And then I went on to make a second, again, for another UN agency, this time UNICEF, called The Journey, that played at South By in 2018. And, you know, on each of these projects, it was kind of a learning process about what did and didn't work well in the medium, in this new medium. And I guess that journey has just continued ever since.
[00:04:24.170] Kent Bye: So I've had a chance to see all three of the pieces that were produced by the Illinois Holocaust Museum. And I saw Darren Emerson's Letters from Drown Sea premiering at Venice in 2023. And I just had a chance to see both Escape to Shanghai, as well as Walk to Westerbork. And I had a chance to talk to both Darren and Mary so far. And now talking to you, I'm able to cover each of this trilogy. So maybe from your perspective, talk about how this project came across your plate.
[00:04:51.003] Charlotte Mikkelborg: Sure. So Darren and I have known each other, and for that matter, actually, Mary and I as well, have known each other for quite some time. We've all sort of been on the nascent VR circuit together and like each other very much. And so I think this project came up, the Illinois Holocaust Museum put out a tender, I think, and East City Films, which is Darren and Ash Cohen's company, wanted to pitch for it. And I think even at that stage, they knew that the museum were keen on covering female survivor stories. So I think obviously being a male-led company, they sort of wanted to reach out to female creators and producers to sort of come on board so that it felt, you know, the team felt more diverse. And so we had Michaela Blitz, who's Jewish herself, who came on as our producer. Myself and Mary came on as the other two directors, with Darren, as you mentioned, directing one of the films, Letters from Drancy, and Mary and I, respectively, directing Walk to Westerbrook and Escape to Shanghai. So, yeah, it's been great, actually, just the chance to work with other directors in the field who I respect and admire and working with East City Films and the Illinois Holocaust Museum, both of whom have been brilliant partners from start to finish, I must say. So, yeah, really, really enjoyable and, you know, tough at times because obviously the subject matter is tough, but really enjoyable project to work on.
[00:06:08.907] Kent Bye: And talking to Mary, she was talking about how all three of you were participating in each of the pre-interviews, at least for the lead director was in charge of asking the questions, but both the other two directors were in the background listening in. And maybe you could describe that process from your perspective in terms of approaching each of these three stories, splitting them up into who would do what, and then starting to do the pre-production and pre-interviews of trying to get a sense of how to tell each of these three stories.
[00:06:37.228] Charlotte Mikkelborg: Yeah, for sure. So the museum had essentially decided, largely decided on the three survivor stories that they wanted to cover in the three films. And I think that Darren is kind of first to the plate, so to speak, already knew quite a lot about Marion Dykeman's story, who is the lady who his film Letters from Drancy is based on. She'd actually written a book about her life story. And I think that Darren had read that. and, you know, felt very inspired to cover her story, which is a hugely emotive one, as you know, from having seen the film because she lost her mother in the Holocaust, who was pretty much torn away from her when she was very young. And I think that because I had the background in China, as I was Shanghai correspondent for the BBC, the team both at the museum and the City Films team felt that I was well suited to Doris Vogel's story, who's the lady who my film focuses on, as she was one of 20,000 Jewish people who fled Nazi Germany for Shanghai shortly after Kristallnacht in Berlin. And then Mary got the third, which is not in order of priority in any way, shape or form, but just in the sense that obviously Darren had kind of chosen his survivor. And I felt like mine was chosen by default with the Shanghai connection, because it was also quite difficult to, well, essentially impossible really to go to Shanghai to shoot the Shanghai elements of the film. So I had to direct that remotely, which was difficult just on its own. But I think if I hadn't known Shanghai intimately in terms of literally knowing, you know, the place street by street, that it would have been even harder for somebody just coming fresh, trying to remotely direct that. So, so yeah, so that was an advantage. In terms of us all sitting in on each other's interviews, that was quite fascinating because even though each of these ladies was between, I think I'm correct in saying five and 10, when Hitler's Germany was really doing its worst, therefore were obviously very young. My lady, who was slightly younger, but not a lot, definitely had the poorest memory of what had happened. I'm not surprised. I don't blame her at all. I think my memory is bad at the best of times, but to be trying to remember something when you're in your late 80s from when you're four or five years old is obviously going to be a struggle. I'm sure there's elements of a psychologist would no doubt know better, you know, elements of the brain that also wants to block out certain experiences. So I do feel that she was, from that point of view, the most challenging of the three contributors. So Marion had obviously documented her experience in a book. So I think that right from the get go, we knew that she had good recollections of what had gone on in her early life story. Mary's contributor, Rody Glass, also just had an incredible memory from when she was seven, eight years old, I think, and all of that was unfolding. But Doris really struggled to recall a lot of the period that we were trying to get to in the film's content. And so I had to speak to a lot of relatives, her sort of brother, I'm saying brother, kind of an inverted commas. He wasn't her actual brother, but we can get into more detail on that if you'd like. But he was already in his nineties, but I think because maybe he was older when some of the events in the film were playing out, slightly older, he was about five years older than Doris. He was able to recall things in a much higher level of detail. that then helped us in a way to sort of jog Doris's own memory of certain events. So, yeah, so that proved helpful. But I think that coming out of those interviews, that all three of us directors and our producers sort of looked at each other. And there was a degree of the other's kind of feeling for me and that I probably have a lot more work to do in trying to kind of reconstruct the narrative of this film based on Doris's memory.
[00:10:21.922] Kent Bye: Okay. Well, after seeing all three of the different films, there's some parallels in terms of going back to these locations, as well as finding ways that you can shoot 360 video of different locations, but also being able to reconstruct different scenes in the context of a animated CGI approach. And so maybe as you were starting to think about how to tell this story, both from going back to these locations, but also how to fill in some of the gaps with the animated scenes. Maybe you could talk about how to construct the overall arc of the story.
[00:10:57.379] Charlotte Mikkelborg: Yeah, sure. So I think in terms of, like you say, talking to kind of narrative arcs and important turning points and kind of important beats in that arc, what felt key was to be able to reconstruct essentially some of those more dramatic moments from, dramatic and traumatic moments, I think, from each of our characters' past. And also some heartwarming moments. I wouldn't say all of the moments in the CG reconstructions were traumatic. But, you know, in the case of Doris, she did remember the apartment that she'd lived in in Berlin on the second story of an apartment building in downtown Berlin. she remembered in flashes, I suppose, parts of her life there. Specifically, she remembered sitting at her next-door neighbor's. Her father died when she was very young, a year and a half, and so her mother was essentially a single mother trying to make ends meet as an accountant, suffering bouts of depression and raising daughters on her own. And so I think the next-door neighbor's husband and wife, who had a son who, as I say, was that brother that Doris refers to him as her brother or cousin, but was actually not a relative, a next door neighbor. But they took Doris and her mother under their wing. And so Doris remembers going in, you know, eating at their kitchen table and in a much more traumatic moment, remembers how they kind of all huddled together in one apartment during Kristallnacht, which, as you probably know, was when the Nazi youth laid waste to a lot of Jewish businesses, synagogues and also homes on a particular night in November of 1938, which was when the worst of Hitler's campaign to annihilate the Jews really began in the first major rounding up of young Jewish men, 30,000 that night into concentration camps. So that night she definitely remembers snippets of the fear and all being kind of huddled together in the apartment while they heard carnage essentially unfolding outside, a lot of noise in the streets, the sound of fire because a lot of buildings were set fire to, the smashing of glass, etc. And we wanted to obviously be able to give some sense of that, not to traumatize people, but to give some sense of that moment. So we shot in 360 film a scene in the apartment that we then transitioned into 3D, marrying the kind of POV of the 360 film with the POV of the CG, and taking you back to that night in 1938. And similarly, we then went on to put you on board the boat, the boat that they finally escaped. Just a few months after, actually, they managed to secure visas to Shanghai. So You know, the U.K. and the U.S. for all their heroism in World War II or towards the end of World War II in particular, did not do as much as they should or could have done in terms of helping, or for that matter, other nations. I mean, not just talking about the U.S. and the U.K. I mean, Roosevelt made good sounds. You know, he sort of denounced what was happening in Nazi Germany and drew the ambassador from Berlin. But neither the U.S. or the U.K. removed quotas on immigration. So there wasn't really the opportunity for a lot of Jewish people who would have liked to have fled Germany and Austria for the U.S. Couldn't do that. And in fact, some went there on boats and were turned away and then ended up dying in Nazi Germany. Shanghai was one of the few places that kept its doors open. And that was to do with a combination of factors. It wasn't just altruism. There was a particular Chinese ambassador based in the embassy in Vienna. And he, almost as a personal crusade, decided that he was going to help in saving the Jews. So he started issuing Not with specific permit from the Chinese government, actually, but they weren't stopping him either. So he started issuing a lot of entry visas to Shanghai. And essentially at that time, because of ongoing war with the Japanese, there wasn't a lot of control at the Shanghainese port. So if somebody had the visa to essentially be able to get out of Germany, saying that they were going to Shanghai and they had the entry visa to Shanghai, they essentially could go. And so Doris was one of those 20,000, her and her family, her mother and the next door family was five of those who managed to secure that passage. So again, the reconstruction of the experience on that boat was something that we did in CG and we As you'll know, if you've seen the film, we sort of at the very same time, like during the three weeks, I think or so that it was that they were on that boat from Germany, Shanghai, was the same time that Hitler gave his now infamous speech about his plans to annihilate the European Jews. And so, you know, it was a pretty narrow escape for her and her family.
[00:15:29.813] Kent Bye: Wow, yeah. And as you're on the ship, you have a technique that is used throughout all of the three pieces, as well as, I think, going back to Darren Emerson's Common Ground, where he was doing a lot of shooting of different architectural locations and doing this projection-mapped technique of mixing media to take both CGI and 360 video and to either project a photo or a video on top of it to blend these different realities. And so, Wondering if you could talk through a little bit of that process of finding those photographs and finding these different locations that then blend and blur the present now with 360 video than just being able to project back in the past and blend the past with the present.
[00:16:12.831] Charlotte Mikkelborg: Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, because these films were commissioned by the Illinois Holocaust Museum, and because they had in mind the survivors that they wanted to feature in them, we did have already provided by the museum a certain amount of archival content. which was fantastic, a fantastic starting point. We then went through quite an extensive research process to dig out additional archival footage. In the case of my film, you know, black and white photography and also some moving image from the Shanghai archives. So that took some time to find from various archives, actually, including the US state archives. So various different sources. It probably took us a couple of months to really bring everything together, maybe even slightly more than that, actually, thinking about it. And we also contacted various members of Doris's family, including, as I've mentioned, her older brother, cousin, who's in his 90s now, but he had a wealth of material that we were able to use. So So like you say, in the scene in the ship, we're using some of that photography, some of the few items and photographs, and I think Doris's mother's passport as well, things that we had that are sort of placed in that CG space, in that CG cabin on the ship. And then also at that point in that same scene, we see the clip that I mentioned of Hitler's speech. And I think the use of that was somewhat controversial, you know, giving Hitler any form of airtime was a somewhat controversial decision. But I think I just wanted to reinforce, not that you need to, the evilness of the man, but also just how tight the escape was for these 20,000 Jews who managed to get out within that window before it became impossible to get out of Germany. And really just to show that they were on the ship while that was unfolding, just felt like it emphasized that for me. And then I think almost like you said, where we almost got the best use of archival photography. And I can't say there wasn't a degree of luck in how that worked out, because as I say, we had to work really hard in trying to direct that remotely. because we were trying to find exact points of view on buildings on the ships in the dark that would marry with the archival photography. And as I say, I think that there was a degree of good research. There was also a degree of luck that it worked to be able to direct that remotely. We didn't even always have connection when the guys were actually for various reasons that I don't need to bore you with. We didn't always have connection to get them into the exact right position. So we were kind of depending on the eye of our sort of DP over there to kind of marry up those scenes. But I think they did end up working pretty well. So when you're outside the heim, which is the German word for home, which was what they dubbed the sort of communal homes that they found or set up in in Shanghai, which often had many people living in a kind of dormitory type setup. Outside of that, there's one shot where you're looking at the outside of one of those buildings. Actually, the original building has been largely knocked down, but it just so happens that the one that they rebuilt in its place looks very similar to the old building. So we were still able, amazingly, to overlay that. Again, why I talk to an element of luck, overlay that archival photography of a lot of people out on those balconies, which really gives you a sense of just how many people were living in those buildings when the Jews came to Shanghai. And like you say, also with the boat shot, obviously the boat that we see in the harbour is not the boat or necessarily hugely similar to the boat that the archival photography showing Jews just streaming off the boats from Germany. But it married up beautifully well, which again, I think an element of luck with that, so that you really got a sense of being on the modern dock, but sort of imagining the Jews pouring off the boats there. So yeah, I was really happy with how most of those shots worked out in that those blends did pretty well succeed, because I just think it helped to give you a sense of those moments in time. And the fact that so much of Shanghai as a city, even when I lived there from 2002 to 2009, changed dramatically. So there's a lot of places where you really just couldn't do that. You couldn't get any blend of archival with the now because of just how different the now looks to then. So again, an element of luck that some of the places we wanted to kind of showcase and marry with the archival footage were still vaguely resembling their original 1930s, 40s form. And there were a handful that we would like to have used the archival photography for, but really just weren't resembling the the 1930s and 40s buildings. But yeah, some of them really worked.
[00:20:40.206] Kent Bye: Yeah. And I talked to Darren, Mary, and now you talking about some of these stories. I think there's a common theme where some of these stories are some of the lesser told stories. We know some of the main arc of the Holocaust have been recounted and told. And many different films of the years, but this particular one about going to Shanghai for 20,000 Jews as a refuge is one that I had never heard of. And so you're telling a story that isn't as well known, but you're also able to dig into some of these archives. And like you said, some of the memories of Doris were not real visceral. So maybe talk about this process of telling that story of Shanghai, especially not having access and some of the deeper context of that, whether it was related to the pandemic, or whether it was just the restrictions around travel in China. So yeah, maybe you could just elaborate on how to approach this process of telling a story that isn't as well known.
[00:21:36.989] Charlotte Mikkelborg: Yeah, so I knew a bit about this story because I'd lived in Shanghai for such a long time and sort of done a tour of what was the Jewish ghetto with a Jewish man who's been doing those tours to be a bar gal for quite a long time. And that was fascinating to me. I think I discovered that sort of in 2002, 2003, when I first moved to Shanghai, because it was something that I wasn't aware of. at all either. And, you know, I've mentioned before, but I think as much as anything, it sort of highlights the shame that in fact, the rest of the world really should feel about what little we did, I believe. In 1938, there was a conference held, an international conference held with many leaders of state in Evian in France. And essentially it was while a lot of sympathetic sounds were made towards what the Jews were already going through in Germany, nobody was offering additional refuge. So the international community really didn't step up. So I think it's all very well to kind of vilify Germany. And obviously what went on in Germany was by far the worst of what went on. But yeah, I think the whole international community had a role to play. But yeah, so in terms of Shanghai, the Jews came. And in some cases, in fact, the gentleman I mentioned earlier, the Chinese ambassador to Vienna, Hou Fengshan, he issued all of these sort of entry visas to Shanghai. Now, some of the Jews of Germany used them to get to Shanghai, but some of them actually used them just to get out of Germany, because you had to have an entry visa to somewhere to be able to get out. And so some used them and then attempted to get to Western states and in some cases succeeded, in many cases didn't. But you know, I think the numbers that he saved were well well in excess of the 20,000 that we know of that made it to Shanghai. So he was a real hero of the Holocaust. And when the Jews got to Shanghai, I mean, many of them had only been able to travel with relatively little. So they'd come in many cases, if they were sort of professionals or successful business owners, they came with relatively little, maybe some fancy clothes on their backs and, you know, fair coats of this kind of thing, but not with anything near the wealth that they had possessed back in Germany or Austria. So I think that was a shock to the system for many, but I think at the same time, obviously a huge relief just to be out of Hitler's Germany and many did succeed in pursuing careers in their chosen profession. So as doctors, dentists, and other things, but many had to make ends meet because they were living in, like I say, in the beginning, especially they were living very tight together in very busy dormitories. And after the first few months, most people did manage to get an accommodation of their own, but quite often that was five people in a family or maybe more to a room. So it was still certainly not luxurious living, not really flush toilets in that area at that time of Shanghai, an area called Tianan Shao. And so, you know, you'd sort of use your bucket, put it out in the morning, the local Chinese man would come and collect it on his sort of wheelbarrow and and dispose of it. So you certainly weren't living any kind of luxury life. But as I say, I think a lot of people were just happy to be out of Germany. And then when the Japanese finally took over Shanghai and they rounded the Jewish people up into the ghetto and living became harder still because There were more people in a smaller space and malnutrition and disease became sort of higher. But the children, and Doris was certainly one of the children of that era, did go to British school. They did all get a decent education and continue to get an education even during the period of the ghettos. So, you know, it was definitely not an easy life, but I think still most were sort of grateful for it, from what I've understood from Doris's story, at least. But some just couldn't cope with it being so different to home in Germany. So there was a decent number of suicides committed. Doris's aunt, or the lady she calls her aunt, the next door neighbor who'd taken them with her to Shanghai. Her sister and her husband had gone to Shanghai and had been pretty well to do in Germany and both committed suicide, sadly, while they were there. But ultimately, I suppose it sort of depended on, you know, what you were coming from and to and then, you know, how you coped mentally with that. I think a lot of people got through that time and happily lived to tell the tale. And many did leave as soon as they could. I mean, once Shanghai was liberated, in 1945, many left almost immediately or as soon as they could get passage to the US, Australia, primarily, and elsewhere.
[00:25:51.917] Kent Bye: And so in terms of actually telling this part of the story and having to do it remotely, maybe give a bit more context for your constraints and limitations for why you couldn't go to Shanghai and just the process of trying to gather the footage that you could, which ended up being a lot of views of what was called the Jewish ghetto and trying to get some shots and meld it up with archives and maybe describe a little bit more of the constraints that you were working under.
[00:26:17.809] Charlotte Mikkelborg: So yes, it was due to COVID. The situation in China at that time was that if you flew into China, you would have to quarantine for three weeks. And then obviously if you had, by some misfortune, contracted COVID either in the days just pre-flight and not realized or while you're on the plane, then potentially, you know, you were going to be faced with six weeks plus of quarantine. And so, you know, I have kids back in the UK, that wasn't really tenable. So instead I worked to find a DP that I could work with over there and a producer and we worked remotely to get those shots and kind of first research and then establish where we were going to shoot and then shoot that. So they weren't so much constrained locally, they were able to move around relatively freely. It was mostly for people trying to come into China that was the problem at that time. But it was some very, very late night directing, very late night or very early morning or up through the night, kind of directing them on a shoot day because of the time difference.
[00:27:14.972] Kent Bye: Right. And so when you're working with Doris and you do these interviews at the beginning, and then you're also capturing footage, was there any back and forth between showing her some of the shots that you're creating and sparking new memories? Or was it mostly just the initial interview where you're having her remember whatever she could about her time in Shanghai?
[00:27:36.603] Charlotte Mikkelborg: So we did the initial interview and kind of discovered that she didn't have as many memories as we were sort of expecting she might or hoping she would. And so then we went about, yes, like you say, a process of kind of researching further, talking to others who had been around her at that time, which was really just her cousin, actually, but then talking to other people who would live through that exact same period in Berlin and similarly others who'd lived through that experience in Shanghai. And so yes, we tried to use that information and some photographic evidence as well to kind of stir her memories. And in some cases it worked, in other cases it didn't. In some cases, I think she probably kind of said it did, but I wasn't necessarily sure that it was fully sparking a memory for her. But yes, certainly some of her cousin's memories really helped because obviously, you know, she lived through the very same event and they lived in the very same room in Shanghai. And so, yeah, some of his memories were incredibly helpful. And to be honest, her memories of Shanghai were much better. You know, she really just had her memories of Berlin just because she was so young. She was about five, just under five when they left. So that was much harder for her. So we did really sort of lean on him for a lot of that, that part of the film and what we just knew from evidential proof that we'd found as well.
[00:28:52.668] Kent Bye: And so for going back and forth between the 360 video showing the streets of Shanghai and in ways that, imagine just architecturally, it's still these narrow streets and cramped environment where you have 20,000 Jewish refugees all in the same small area, but yet you also use the CG to talk about how Doris and her mother had to sleep in the same bed and that was really hard for her mother, but also she was getting letters from her grandfather Had she remembered those letters or maybe talk a bit about that aspect of the story?
[00:29:25.909] Charlotte Mikkelborg: Yeah, she did. You know, of her grandparents, I think she was probably closest to her maternal grandfather. And he was a war hero from the First World War. He didn't think in a million years, you know, he just didn't believe that bad things were going to happen to the Jews in Germany. And even once the signs were pretty clear, he was still I guess in a sort of suspended disbelief that things were somehow going to turn out okay. And so he, he remained in Germany. He didn't leave with, with Doris and her mother. And I expect always regretted that decision. And he was writing to Doris's mother, whom he was very close to while she was in Shanghai. And she was getting those letters and she was writing back. I'm not sure how many of her letters back he received, but I think that it was somewhat difficult for Doris, but I imagine, I didn't get to speak to her mother because obviously her mother is long past, but I imagine incredibly difficult for her mother because her father, once he realized that the full extent of what was unfolding in Germany, obviously then did desperately want to leave, but could no longer get out. So he was asking her in the letters, could she help him get to Shanghai? And obviously she couldn't. She wasn't at that point in any place to actually help. I'm sure she inquired. We don't have the evidence that she did, but I'm sure she would have done what she could to see if that was possible. But ultimately the door was no longer open, not on the Shanghainese side, but there was no longer any way out of Germany. And so he didn't actually get taken to the concentration camps, but the letters stopped coming for her mother a couple of years after they arrived in Shanghai, so about 1943, I think. And they later found out that he'd got quite sick, actually. And when they'd come to collect him to take him to the concentration camp, he'd taken an overdose so that he didn't have to go with them. So we did revisit his home or his last known home in Berlin when we shot the film with Doris. I think that was pretty emotional for her. She wanted to do it. And something that they didn't have, which was a shame, but there's an artist who's been working in Berlin to kind of create these cobblestones and put them into the pavements outside of all the homes where Jews were taken to the concentration camps and kind of as a memory to them and to put their names on those and that they serve a small sort of memorial plaques. And it's a beautiful sort of way of remembering just how many people were lost. I mean, you walk around Berlin and you can't help but notice them, you know, they're everywhere. And there sadly wasn't one outside of Doris's grandfather's house, perhaps because he was never taken or or perhaps because it is one sole artist doing this incredible project basically on their own. So I imagine resources are stretched. But yeah, I think it was an important moment for Doris to maybe say her goodbyes to him in a way that she didn't get a chance to way back when they left Berlin. And during the course of the filmmaking, we did find out where his remains had gone to finally. And it was an unmarked grave in a cemetery in Berlin. And so we were able to organize together with the Illinois Holocaust Museum for a plaque of remembrance to be placed for him. So she was finally also able to to visit his grave and know that he would be remembered and that he would be there for future generations to come and visit if they wanted to. So that really touched her, I think. And Doris herself passed, sadly, in December. So she's no longer with us. So really important to also just be here. representing her story at South By. I know she was quite a feisty firebrand of a character. I know she would have loved to have been here herself. But sadly, she did develop cancer last year and it was fairly aggressive. And so she didn't see the year out. But yeah, she would have loved to have been here and she'll be here in spirit, I'm sure.
[00:33:04.153] Kent Bye: Had she had a chance to see the final piece before she passed away?
[00:33:08.919] Charlotte Mikkelborg: Yes, she did. She did. She went to the launch at the Illinois Holocaust Museum because the Holocaust Museum launched the film last August. So for people who've been able to visit that museum just outside Chicago, you know, they have been able to see it already, which is great, but obviously we're super excited to bring it to an even wider audience here at South By. And yeah, one of the most important things that Doris did talk about a lot was just the importance to her that her story wasn't forgotten. because I think she was worried along with no doubt a lot of survivors that with them will kind of die the first hand recounting of these stories and that people, you know, her concern was that generation by generation people will become less interested and therefore less mindful of the lessons that these stories kind of teach us about the need for tolerance, the need to kind of not be prejudiced and need to show love instead of hate, which is a big theme, I suppose, of Mary's film in particular. And Rhody Glass, who is the subject of Mary's film, is definitely a huge, who will be here at South By, a huge advocate of that kind of mantra. And yeah, hopefully all of the films will speak to that.
[00:34:15.390] Kent Bye: Yeah, and as I think about the story beats as the story is unfolding, there's going to Shanghai and being in this really cramped quarters, but then having the Japanese imperialists also come in and set a lot stricter boundaries in terms of the boundaries of this Jewish ghetto for who can go in and out and some of the soldiers that were not very nice in terms of interacting with the Jewish population. And so maybe you could talk about the process of that part of the story, because it's certainly something that you could reference a lot of the other historical information and how much of that was coming directly from Doris's memory versus how much you had to reconstruct, but also have her still be the narrator in the end.
[00:34:57.665] Charlotte Mikkelborg: Hmm. Yeah. She didn't have direct memories, I think, herself of Goya, who was the particularly well-known and seemingly pretty mean Japanese soldier who was in charge of the ghetto and would kind of oversee people coming and going from the ghetto. But I think she had memories, certainly, of the adults in her family kind of accounting lots of sort of horror. Well, not so much horror stories about him, but but stories of his cruelty, basically. And he would sort of regularly beat people at the entrance and exit point of the ghetto if they kind of upset him in one way or another. And I think that was also a very sort of changeable character. You know, some days he'd greet you with a smile, the next day he'd sort of beat you with a truncheon. So there was never quite knowing where you stood. But I think that many Jews, having come to Shanghai and made ends meet, In many cases, quite successfully, like I say, in their chosen original professions or by being quite entrepreneurial, they didn't necessarily have that option after the ghetto was formed by the Japanese. Because at that point, you had to have a certain kind of permit to be able to come in and out of the ghetto. So some people were able to get that from their place of work, but others weren't. And so a sort of already poor situation became that much poorer and the ability to kind of get enough food to eat, etc. became a lot harder. So that's when malnutrition and disease became a much bigger issue. And I think around 1700 Jewish people did die in the Jewish ghettos. But really, the Japanese cruelty against the Chinese severely outweighed what the Jewish populations went through in Shanghai. So in some ways, the Japanese treatment of the Jewish people was better than their treatment of the local Chinese population. And I think what struck me about all the stories that we heard in terms of Jewish people recounting their experiences of Shanghai was just how welcoming the local Chinese were to them. Despite the fact that they were living in quite a poor area of Shanghai and therefore having to share quite limited resources, they seem to have been greeted almost exclusively with pretty open arms by the Chinese population. Like, we don't have much But what we have is your sort of thing. Let's just kind of all muck in and make it work together. There doesn't seem to be many stories. I didn't come across any stories. I'm not saying there aren't any of the Chinese being very unwelcoming towards the Jews. So that is something worth mentioning, because it's quite astonishing, in my opinion, that that was how they were received.
[00:37:18.186] Kent Bye: You know, one of the moments that is really striking to me is when Doris is on the ship going to Shanghai and she's talking about how she had some other relatives, aunts and uncles that were trying to go to the United States and that they get turned back and they get sent back to Germany and they end up dying in the Holocaust.
[00:37:35.734] Charlotte Mikkelborg: And so.
[00:37:37.054] Kent Bye: you have Doris and her family and her neighbors, which she calls her aunt and uncle and cousins, were also able to escape to Shanghai and be there for a number of years. And then eventually they're able to come to the United States. And so the time that they originally go to Shanghai at that time, the international community was not welcoming of these Jewish refugees. And at some point that changes and they're able to get out of Shanghai and go to the United States. And so maybe talk about that juxtaposition of the changes that happened around the international community that were becoming more open and more aware as to what was actually happening in Germany, that were having a shift the difference between 1938 versus when they were able to eventually leave and then come to the United States.
[00:38:20.272] Charlotte Mikkelborg: Yeah, absolutely. No, it's a really important point because obviously I've mentioned what I mentioned about the international community not being that welcoming and it's probably worth, well, it's definitely worth saying that while there was international news coverage of Kristallnacht, so there was an awareness around the world of the fact that, you know, Jewish people were being persecuted, that their shops were being looted, that they were certainly being rounded up and sent into some form of camp, you know, there wasn't a lot of information escaping from the camps themselves about what was really going on. And so I think for many years, there wasn't certainly a full awareness of what was going on inside Hitler's Germany. and the sort of wholesale annihilation of the Jews that was happening. And I can't honestly say that I'm such an expert on this part of history that I can say this categorically, so I should probably prelim with that. But there seems to have been either during the latter stages of World War II, and certainly when the Americans and the British started to get access to the camps, like the camp at Belkin, that they really saw firsthand the horrors of what had gone on. And I think that's what finally, and those reports started to come out. There's a very famous report, I'm trying to remember the name of the BBC News reporter, which is absolutely heartbreaking to listen to even today. That was obviously his experience as soon as he entered the camp in 1945. And I think reports like that one, and I'm sure there's the equivalent, there would have been the equivalent in the U.S. media, really just had such a wave of reaction in public opinion that there was a realization that now was the time to step up, basically. But I can't talk to the exact laws that changed that. I know that what had prevented things previously in the U.S., for example, was a quota system that had been in place since 1924, and which they didn't ease when they could have done in sort of 1938, 39. which I'm assuming they did ease then in 1945, but actually I don't have the info on that. But you still did need a sponsor in the US. Even after everything, you couldn't just come, just try your luck. You did have to find yourself a sponsor. But I think a lot of people did have connections of one form or another that were in the States, or you knew someone who did. And so there was a lot of people then, individual US citizens who then stepped up to help out. And that's how Doris and her mother and also the rest of their family, well, it wasn't their family, in fact, because all of the rest of their family, every single member who hadn't died of natural causes died in the Holocaust. So it was just Doris and her mother who escaped from their actual family bloodline that she's aware of. But then, you know, like I say, the next door neighbor, father and mother and son who had been with them in Shanghai, they were the ones actually who initially managed to get a sponsor in in the States. And then a friend of that sponsor effectively offered to also sponsor Doris and her mother. So they were also able to come over to to Illinois, which is how they ended up in Chicago. So, yeah.
[00:41:15.283] Kent Bye: And they're coming in through San Francisco and you have a really amazing drone shot of the Golden Great Bridge. And is that something that you'd shot or how'd you get access to that footage?
[00:41:25.789] Charlotte Mikkelborg: Yes. So I also directed the San Fran shoot remotely. I believe that there was some constraints at that time with getting us in. And so we shot that with a small team, just a drone team in San Francisco, those handful of shots.
[00:41:40.859] Kent Bye: Yeah, that was a beautiful, beautiful shot. And you have the last part of just the story of Doris coming to the United States and then also revisiting some memorials and, you know, maybe you could just talk about how to wrap up this story and talk about where Doris's life had ended up in terms of both being able to make the United States and to start a family and to have a life that wouldn't have been possible had she stayed in Germany, but then go to Shanghai and then all the new opportunities you had by coming to the United States.
[00:42:12.247] Charlotte Mikkelborg: Yeah, definitely. I think one of the themes that I hope that the film speaks to is sort of this notion of home and like, where is home? You know, is it where your family is? Is it where you feel most comfortable? Is it where you're free from persecution? And certainly, you know, in the case of Doris and her family, it was first and foremost, the latter of those. And I think that, you know, Doris considered herself absolutely 100% an American. You know, she didn't think of herself in any way, shape or form as a German. You know, she certainly was still Jewish and was still a practicing Jew, but didn't consider herself German in any way, shape or form. And so after she came to the States, she sort of fully integrated herself in sort of life here. And we had her in a small town south of Chicago. So I'm just struggling to remember the name, Pretoria, where she'd first worked as sort of a US male girl. And we had a lovely shot of her, you know, as sort of teenager in a sort of male uniform outside of a building there that we superimposed on a shot that we actually ended up shooting in Chicago outside the big Chicago post office. But we superimposed her standing next to a postbox there and things like that, which were just telling of her life after this incredibly troubled time, really, that she experienced. So I suppose that's kind of the resolution of the film is a relatively brief recounting of her success then in the United States and how she managed to really make a life for herself. have a great job and she got happily married and ended up with three children, lots of grandchildren and really make a go of it here in the States. So hopefully a happy resolution to an otherwise pretty turbulent story.
[00:43:44.795] Kent Bye: As we're talking about this, I can't help but think about the current situation that's happening with Israel and Palestine. And obviously there's a lot of different discussions and debates that are happening. This is beyond the scope of the bounds of what you're covering in this story, but I'm wondering if you had any thoughts or reflections on the current situation that's happening.
[00:44:05.923] Charlotte Mikkelborg: Yeah, for sure. I mean, I think that, you know, obviously what's happening in Palestine and what happened, obviously, to Israel in the mass attack on Israel is extremely sad. And having spent time in Israel and Palestine and knowing that there are 100% good people with good morals on both sides of this equation, I think ultimately it comes down to people in power. if I'm honest, making appalling decisions. Obviously, people have had very emotional reactions worldwide to what's going on in Israel and Palestine. And I think an additional sort of negative thing that's coming out, other than the obvious negative that's happening for Palestine, is that we're seeing sort of anti-Semitism kind of kick off again around the world. And I just think just for both sides of the equation, it's just an incredibly sad situation because what we should be focusing on is the exit from persecution, the exit from sort of hate, the exit from bipolarisation of Islam versus Judaism or any other form of polarisation and like trying to get sensible people on both sides of the equation talking and finding solutions that actually work. You know, I come from, my father's from Southern Ireland and that was a whole other difficult situation. That's why, in a way, when Ireland enters peace talks, we finally got somewhere, and that's what's needed. You need people talking, finding solutions. just showing humanity, basically. It's just about humanity. I can't understand how people can live so close in Israel and Palestine. And they do show humanity towards one another on a day-to-day level between an average, you know, an Israeli and an average Palestinian, but just not at the level of those in power. And I think, yeah, something clearly has to change. And in terms of the US position, I mean, I'm not sure that's for me to comment, but But, you know, I think it's been pretty clear that the Israeli government's actions have been far and beyond what should be acceptable by the international community, in my opinion, if that counts for anything.
[00:46:00.703] Kent Bye: Yeah, thanks for elaborating on that. And just one other thought as I watch this film and think about our present day is I'm really struck by watching this film, how we're talking about the failure of the international community to react. In this case, receiving Jewish people right after Kristallnacht and after it was clear by anybody who was there that they were under threat of their lives and how there's so many other ways that the story is continuing today. with the lack of access to refugees and migrants. And it's certainly a hot topic here in the United States in terms of immigration, but migration and immigration around the world is something that is still a big topic that as I was watching this film and having this conversation with you, there's still issues where people's lives are under threat. So I think this film, as I was watching it, also just reflecting on how this is a story that's in the past and talking about it, but it's still a story that's alive today.
[00:46:55.759] Charlotte Mikkelborg: in so many ways, I feel like we're born somewhere and it's a complete lottery, right? Where your soul manages to hit this planet is a complete lottery. And, you know, you and I are lucky that we were born into developed nations where we don't have a shortage of water and we generally don't have a shortage of food. I mean, sure, there are exceptions to that, but generally speaking, not, you know, and we're so lucky. And yet people, as a whole, with many obviously exceptions to that rule, but as a whole, people are awfully selfish. And there's too many who want to keep others out, I think, when even with opening your doors to refugees, you would still have a much better life than what they're coming from in most circumstances. And I do understand that there's probably ultimately only so many people a small place can take. The UK is a good example. We're not that big a country, right? We're a relatively small landmass and we've already got whatever it is, something like 65 million. So there's definitely space for more, but there's probably not space for as many more as certain other larger countries if they've got the infrastructure and they've got the space, potentially. But that's not an argument, I should say, that's not an argument for the UK to take people. I think that know 100% when we're born into a sort of luckier situation than many of these people are, whether it's due to climate change that they're leaving home, whether it's due to war, persecution, I just think overall we could be a lot less selfish and a lot more open to receiving people in those situations but Unfortunately, we live on the planet that we live on, and that often isn't the case. And I guess we just have to do what we can. Like I know in the UK, we've been able to sponsor Ukrainian refugees. And if, you know, if you provided sponsorship, it meant one more person or one more family could come to the country. And I know, you know, several people personally, I volunteered myself for the scheme. I know several people personally who have volunteered for that scheme. So, you know, there exists the possibility to have an impact, I think, on a personal scale as well as a governmental one. But yeah, I think most countries, not all, but most could do better.
[00:48:49.008] Kent Bye: Yeah, just even how I ended up here in the United States or my grandparents coming from Latvia had sponsors as my mom was born in refugee camp from Latvia to Germany and being able to come over to the United States. So yeah, just as we talk about this story, you know how important some of the actions that people have taken in the past have been able to even enable the life that I have here. So yeah, just really grateful for that, as you say. Yeah, I guess as we start to wrap up, I'm curious what you think the ultimate potential of virtual reality and immersive storytelling might be and what it might be able to enable.
[00:49:22.711] Charlotte Mikkelborg: Oh my goodness. I think the potential of immersive storytelling is almost limitless. I think we're still at a time when, we'll get there, but I think the devices that you need to use to experience these stories are still too clunky, too cumbersome. I mean, I think that with Apple bringing in the Vision Pro, that's certainly got, like most things Apple, a slightly more intuitive user interface or significantly more intuitive user interface than some of the headsets that have come before that will help for sure. But I look forward to seeing how the future generations of that headset and others that just make them lighter, more comfortable, you know, easier to just pop on and jump into these immersive storytelling worlds. Because I think the potential, as I say, is almost limitless. Like, why would you want to experience a story on a 2D screen when you can experience it as a Well, you know, I didn't talk about it earlier, but many of my previous experiences have been multisensory storytelling experiences as well. So not just limiting to the audio visual, but where relevant, also expanding that into sense and touch and heat and wind and all of these things that really, you know, immerse you in a moment in time or a moment in the story. And so I really believe like immersive storytelling, like I say, just so much potential that is not yet fully explored in that respect as well. So I'm just excited about the future in this medium, really. I think we've got a lot a lot more to see and it's only going to get better as the years go on.
[00:50:43.515] Kent Bye: Yeah. Is there anything else that's left unsaid that you'd like to say to the broader Immersive community?
[00:50:49.464] Charlotte Mikkelborg: I don't think so. I think you've got it covered, Kent. Thank you very much for having me on.
[00:50:53.583] Kent Bye: Yeah, thanks so much for creating this film and telling these stories as a part of a trilogy of other stories. I think there's ways that these three films all together, there's a lot of similar ways that you're telling the story of using the techniques of both 360 video and CGI structurally, even though each of these three stories are vastly different and what the stories actually are and how they're told. But there's some similar techniques that I think are very quite interesting to see how you can start to use the affordances of the medium to take us on this blending of the past and the present and to tell these biographical stories that are very personal, but also speak to larger trends that are happening in our society. So yeah, just really appreciated having a chance to watch all three of them now and to see what you're able to achieve both individually, but also as a group with each of these three different stories.
[00:51:44.413] Charlotte Mikkelborg: Yeah, thanks so much. I really hope people either are here at South Bank and come and see them or can make it to the Illinois Holocaust Museum, which I highly recommend. Very, very impressive museum if you happen to be in Chicago. But yeah, I hope that they'll get to meet a broader audience than that as well and maybe continue to tour the festivals and potentially get into some of the headset stores so that people around the world can really appreciate what's been done with the trilogy. But thank you. Thanks for watching them.
[00:52:08.678] Kent Bye: So thanks again for listening to this interview. This is usually where I would share some additional takeaways, but I've started to do a little bit more real-time takeaways at the end of my conversations with folks to give some of my impressions. And I think as time goes on, I'm going to figure out how to use XR technologies within the context of the VoicesofVR.com website itself to do these type of spatial visualizations. So I'm putting a lot of my energy on thinking about that a lot more right now. But if you do want a little bit more in-depth conversations around some of these different ideas around immersive storytelling, I highly recommend a talk that I gave on YouTube. You can search for StoryCon Keynote, can't buy. I did a whole primer on presence, immersive storytelling, and experiential design. So, that's all that I have for today, and I just want to thank you all for listening to the Voices of VR podcast. And if you enjoy the podcast, then please do spread the word, tell your friends, and consider becoming a member of the Patreon. This is a listener-supported podcast, and so I do rely upon donations from people like yourself in order to continue to bring you this coverage. So you could become a member and donate today at patreon.com slash voicesofvr. Thanks for listening.
