I interviewed director Lisa Schamlé about Me, A Depiction that showed at IDFA DocLab 2024. See the transcript down below for more context on our conversation.
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Rough Transcript
[00:00:05.458] Kent Bye: The Voices of VR podcast. Hello, my name is Kent Bye, and welcome to the Voices of VR podcast. It's a podcast that looks at the structures and forms of immersive storytelling and the future of spatial computing. You can support the podcast at patreon.com slash voicesofvr. So continuing my series of looking at different immersive experiences from IFA Doc Lab 2024, today's episode is with a piece called Meet a Depiction, which is a part of the Immersive Nonfiction Competition and actually took home the top prize this year. So this is a performance art piece that is including different video projections, and there's like a whole immersive live performance to this. So essentially, the creator, Lisa Shalame, is exploring different aspects of her body image and trying to create art around the male gaze and having an opportunity to turn that gaze back to the audience. And so She's taking images of herself and distorting them and morphing her body. And so you see these projections of these images that are going by on the different walls. And then she's laying on this bed, which is made out of mirrors. And so as audiences looking at her, they're able to also see themselves and it's kind of like got this distortion. So it's a little bit like a fun house mirror. So in the first half of the performance, Lisa is just looking at herself. And then in the second half, she sits up a little bit and starts looking back and gazing back at the audience. And so, yeah, it's a really powerful piece. And I just wanted to read the statement from the jury. Our jury recognizes a work that sets up a powerful dynamic between physical and digital representations of the body to actively engage audiences and create a maverick visual language. We enter essentially charged and technically fortified environment where the artist asserts her body as her home, an act of liberation from stereotypes of beauty and sexuality. Shalame designs a uniquely creative confrontation between artists and audiences and offers a new direction for portraiture that invites collective participation. So we're covering all that and more on today's episode of the Voices of VR podcast. And I should note that by this time of my interviews at Ifadoc Lab, I was progressively losing my voice. And so that's why you'll hear a little bit more of a crackly voice in this conversation. So this interview with Lisa happened on Wednesday, November 20th, 2024 at Ifadoc Lab in Amsterdam, Netherlands. So with that, let's go ahead and dive right in.
[00:02:25.282] Lisa Schamlé: My name is Lisa Schamlé. I'm a performance artist, interdisciplinary artist. I do photography, video now, and yeah, live performance. Yeah.
[00:02:37.753] Kent Bye: Great. Maybe you could give a bit more context as to your background and your journey into the space.
[00:02:42.145] Lisa Schamlé: Yeah, so I studied performance art at theater school. So it's a very broad education. You get trained as an actor. So like the basics, the voice acting and the body on the stage. And then you learn to develop your own work. You can stand in your own work and it can take many forms. And I started making photographs of myself in school. Then I had a collective in theater with five women called La Isla Bonita. We made performances for seven years and three years ago I quit and I started working on my own work. And that started with My Toe Uncensored, shown here at the Itzfah Dog Club.
[00:03:29.930] Kent Bye: Yeah, that was back in 2022. Coming out of the pandemic and maybe you could just give a bit more context for how that project came about.
[00:03:36.673] Lisa Schamlé: So I made that work in COVID because I couldn't make photos of people. I only could make photos of myself and I bought a new camera lens and I just started making photos of things in my house and I couldn't make photos of my own toe because like this is a very good perspective too. to photograph and then I looked at it and I was like what a weird thing actually I never really looked at the toe and it really grossed me out also and that's the part which I think is interesting the things that you think are gross and then why so I made a lot of photos of my right big toe then I put it on Instagram with the hashtag toe And I got a lot of response from the food fetish world. So they were sliding in my DMs and they wanted to buy feet pics. And then I thought, well, this is very interesting. So that made it more about objectification of the female body, where even a toe can be sexually attractive. So I made an OnlyFans for my toe and I had a lot of interesting conversations with people, food fetishists. And I documented the conversations and I made them anonymous. And you could also read them during the exhibition. So in the exhibition, it's an installation of really big photos of my toe, so bigger than my own body. And I had a like a glory hole where I was in sitting inside the glory hole, and my toe sticking out so you could see my live toe, my real toe. The artist was present, the toe was present, but you couldn't see me. And the conversation I had with the man, the food fetishist who wanted to buy feed pigs and had special requests, made screenshots and showed them on iPhones. So that was also a part of the work. Yeah.
[00:05:59.731] Kent Bye: OK. And so I guess as an artist, as you start to look at this as a form of performance art, you're sitting in what is essentially like this square wall where you have a cutout with your toe and an exhibition that also had your photos of your toe and your toes, but also these screenshot and these conversations. What were some of the things that it was making you think about in terms of your own art and artistic practice and how you could start to take this idea and then turn it into an ongoing series of a trilogy now of pieces that are on the same theme? So what did that catalyze in you to start to then dig into more and start to further explore?
[00:06:37.765] Lisa Schamlé: So it made me realize, because I love to work with my own body, I also think that's really strong whenever I see people working with their own bodies and not ask for other people to use their bodies for their vision. So because of these conversations I had with men, I stumbled upon, or like not suddenly, but how oppressed this female body is. And how much female sexuality is just very oppressed. So I wanted to dig into that more. So I made a second work called Formula Cum, where I made a performer have sex with a motorcycle. And this is about female... How do you say this? like the horniness of a woman which is not something that is there by itself it's always looked upon the male gaze of this female horniness so i wanted to investigate what female subjective horniness was so i did that i don't think you can do that with a man with a male body so i did it with a motorcycle and then now this work i started with my own sexuality and then i realized that there are so many thoughts i have about my own body which stand in the way of my own image um yeah very political
[00:08:21.215] Kent Bye: Let's go back to your second piece, Formula Come. What was the context under which that this was explored? Was it a video, a photo? Was it a live performance? Maybe just describe the set and setting for where this second performance happened.
[00:08:33.658] Lisa Schamlé: So if a woman is aroused, she gets wet and slimy, and that's usually seen as gross. But I wanted this motorcycle to become very slimy and wet and gross. And I made a lot of photos with touching this vehicle, certain cars also with a lot of slime and motor oil.
[00:09:03.181] Kent Bye: and then there was also a live performance with a performer having live sex with the vehicle and yeah that's it yeah okay okay so that brings us to me a depiction which is showing here at if a doc lab and so maybe you just talk about the origins of this third piece in this triptych of media depiction how did you want to continue the themes and what you were investigating as an artist
[00:09:29.907] Lisa Schamlé: I realized that I'm not happy about my body at all and that I have this certain image of how my body looks and I always felt like there's this ideal body hidden within my own body that is just waiting to come out. So if I work hard, it will come out, then I will feel sexy and then I will be happy. And this is because we get so much stimulations of these perfect female bodies. And I was also inspired by the whole theme of a thing being a fetish, like a food fetish, that we consider very weird because it's not the norm to be sexually attracted to a toe. But then I realized, like, the white, blonde, thin woman is completely sexualized, and that's such a fetish. So we consider that... Like this is a natural thing that this is the ideal body. And this is also what I want to be because I get all these examples all the time. So then I made a lot of pictures of myself and it was very confronting. And I thought I was trying to objectify my own body. And then I looked at the photos and I chose the ones that made me feel uncomfortable. Where I thought, okay, now my ass looks terrible. These were the ones I picked. And so I made a video out of all of these self-portraits. And you see them going from right to left. Completely dysmorphia into nothingness. Yeah.
[00:11:16.826] Kent Bye: So there's dysmorphia, which is an internal view, but there's also physical modulations. And so you're bending and blurring and actually extending and morphing your body in a way. So yeah, maybe talk around that process of just even looking at it and having maybe some internal dysmorphia, but then taking it to the next level of deliberately morphing and distorting your body.
[00:11:38.086] Lisa Schamlé: Yeah, so when I took those photos, I morphed them just to see what else it could be also and what a freedom it is to go outside of that norm. And then I thought, okay, do I think this is pretty or is this ugly and why? And I also stripped down all of these thoughts I had about these pictures. And then I thought, well, actually, this is my taste. This is something I like. And then it was like, I'm looking for freedom in my own body image. So I talked a lot about it, thought a lot about it, wrote a lot about it. And then this complete freedom is actually not it being pretty or ugly, but it is just what it is. Your body is always changing. You're aging. Now I'm pregnant. My body's changing again. If there's a judgment, that's an ending point. And yeah, that's a pity. Like, we all are aging. That's amazing that we are aging, we're getting older. So that's very liberating for me, this thought. Yeah.
[00:12:45.314] Kent Bye: Yeah, there's a moment where you start to see unmodulated and unmorphed raw photos, no Photoshop manipulation or anything, the first shots. And then eventually you start to see some shots of you come through with your mouth and your smile slightly distorted and bent and... There's a connection to like Snapchat and Snapchat filters where people will have a facial filter and they'll morph themselves in a way that is something that's usually they share privately amongst their other friends and don't always like share those modulations of their face publicly or people will be at like a basketball game where they'll show people up on a big screen and then the camera operator will have the snapchat filter that snapchat licenses out to these different stadiums and modulate other people's bodies and everything but in this case that you're choosing to deliberately take your body and morph it in a way that was striking to me it's like wow i don't i don't see this very often in a way that people are deliberately modulating their body to this extreme and then showing it publicly in this kind of like art performance. And so I thought it was just really powerful because you continue to, in more and more extreme ways, stretch and bend and morph your body in these series of images. And this is all within the context of watching this video while you're on the other side, laying down on like this mirror bed it's like a platform that has mirrors that at first you're not looking at anyone you're just kind of staring off and we'll get into later but maybe you could describe the set and setting of this performance that you wanted to create an opportunity for people to bear witness to these images but in a way where you're actually also in the room and in a way that people could interact with you in the second half of the performance
[00:14:29.153] Lisa Schamlé: Yeah, so the inspiration actually came from the street where I never feel free because people are looking at me all the time, especially men. Only men, actually. And this made me feel so unfree, always very conscious of myself, always being confronted with that I'm this sexual object that I'm being looked at. So this gaze is always... also in my mind about myself. So this gaze is everywhere. It's like a stain that is just like everywhere all the time. The consciousness of your own body in a room. And I thought, how can I take back the power of this gaze of other people? How can I reclaim this within this patriarchy? So I wanted to make a mirror where I only looked at myself first. And then after 15 minutes, I'm getting up a little bit. Then I look at the people, still with my back towards the people, but I wanted to show that although you're looking at my body, at me, I'm always looking back. I have been looking back all the time. I wanted to reclaim that power of the gaze. Yeah, yeah.
[00:15:51.505] Kent Bye: Yeah, and I found it really powerful, actually. And I think when I saw it, there was some people that were just talking really loudly. Eventually, someone came up and said, there's something happening here, like a performance. And I was also getting to the point where I was going to go up and just say, hey, can you leave? Because it just was, yeah, shut up. It was just very distracting. But I also noticed just during my performance that there are people that are watching live the video portion, but because of the first 10 or 15 minutes, you're not changing or doing anything. You're kind of looking at yourself. Then you start looking at people, and I noticed that you were looking at people, and it was sort of like you're being implicated, or there was an engagement, and I was like, okay, that's interesting. So then as I saw you and locked eyes and then kind of moved into another position where I was looking at you directly, not in the mirror, it was very, I don't know, it was... It felt like, oh, I shouldn't be doing this. I shouldn't be looking when you look back at me in a way. It just felt like, oh, I've been caught. That was the feeling that I had. Yeah, that's what I want. Yeah, make it elaborate on that.
[00:16:54.160] Lisa Schamlé: Yeah, so what I also get back, and I really intended this, so I'm very happy that I get this back, is that at first point, people feel free to look at my body. Of course, I put it on a mirror. I'm in the bathing suit. Of course, you're looking at my body. I staged it. But then when I look back at the second half, People feel very uncomfortable looking at my body still, because they're like, I feel uncomfortable looking at your ass when you're looking at me. So I feel like I have to look into your eyes, otherwise I don't respect you or something like that. So this is something I really wanted to create. And then also because it's a mirrored surface and the audience are walking around, they're not sitting in a usual theater, sitting, clapping, lights out, blah, blah, blah. But now they're a part of the performance. So they walk around and they also see each other. They see each other looking at my body. So there's all these layers of the gazes which I wanted to create.
[00:17:56.772] Kent Bye: And I'm wondering what kind of like reactions you get. Like I noticed that a lot of people weren't looking at you. I didn't know if they were not paying attention or if it's too intense that if you're looking back, then they no longer wanted to look. And if you find that, or if you look at people and they look away, or if you look at people and they kind of lock eyes and look at you until like a staring game where like, who's going to look away first. And so I'm wondering if you can explain some of the different range of reactions that you get when you start to look back.
[00:18:25.307] Lisa Schamlé: Yes, so I think as an audience member you feel confronted because also you have this gaze of other audience members seeing that I am looking at them. So this hyper awareness of your own presence is also very uncomfortable. Some people are very shy, they look away immediately. Some people look at me in my eyes very... How do you say that? Can you help me?
[00:19:02.403] Kent Bye: They're intently staring, or there's an intensity?
[00:19:05.806] Lisa Schamlé: Very intense, yeah. And some people are crying also, because it's very weird to make contact with strangers in this very direct way. I mean, there's a mirror in between. It's not like Marina Abramovich, you're sitting across each other. There's still this mirror. But it's such a special meeting, because... I'm putting my own vulnerability at display, and I think it's not only a thing of women, I think also men or des dames, everyone has a body. Everyone who has a body is recognizing something in this work. So I feel like I put a vulnerable step forward and I also get that back most of the time. But they're also like 2024, people are looking at their phones all the time. Sometimes that happens. yeah it's different some people crying some people are like very uncomfortable and i love it all i don't like when people are on their phones yeah have you had a chance to talk to anybody who did have a reaction of crying and what was maybe coming up for them Yes, some people are waiting for me like after the performance to get out of the room and they want to talk to me or hug me or thank me. Yeah, this is a very emotional meeting and I think it's so special. It's so special. It's like laying on this mirrored surface. It looks maybe easy, but it is like super hard because I'm laying still all the time. So everything is sleeping in my body and it's... it hurts but then the reactions i get from the audience is so heartwarming it makes such a connection with people yeah yeah why do you think they are so appreciative what are they grateful for in terms of what you're able to do that is able to reflect on their own experience I think everyone recognizes this problem, but it's so invisible and it's so big in our own head and yeah, it takes up a lot of space. And I think more than people realize. Yeah.
[00:21:23.942] Kent Bye: What do you notice the difference between the first part where you're looking at yourself and not looking at other people? Or maybe you have an awareness of what people are doing because there is a mirror there versus the second part where you're looking back at people. Do you notice that people don't look at you as much or stop looking at your body and only look at you and your eyes? Or what are some of the things that you notice?
[00:21:47.248] Lisa Schamlé: So the difference between the beginning, not looking and... Well, at the beginning I cannot see anyone, so I don't know what's happening. And I feel a bit powerless also sometimes, but I have like a sort of a bodyguard who checks upon everything, like no one can touch me or come close to me because... audience members can be weird and sometimes they do that especially i did that with my toe with my toe sticking out there were so many people who touched my toe and blew on it even they wanted to see if it was real there is this interesting form of performance art people walking around and they think they can just touch you or like but still I am a person so in the beginning whenever I don't look I feel less powerful but I know that it will change and then I'll change position and and I can look at people and and then I feel very powerful yeah yeah i feel very powerful some people like i mirror also a little bit of the people like not really in gestures but feelings that people give me through their eyes i i mirror it yeah so if someone's sad then you touch into your own feelings yeah sometimes i also cry yeah yeah yeah certainly yeah yeah
[00:23:17.895] Kent Bye: Well, on the installation of the bed, it's mirrors, and you have a surface you're laying on. You have a mirror that's on the side, so it's more of a chair in some sense. Not just a flat surface, but you have the ability to look back at people. And then on the end, the mirrors are not perpendicular to the ground. They're at an angle. Like, when you look at it, you kind of see your feet, or it gives a little bit of a different experience. And so I'm wondering... if you could elaborate on the design of that mirror space. And because in some ways the audience is either seeing reflections of themselves and they're also seeing reflections of other people. But some of the mirrors I noticed are also distorted. It's almost like a funhouse mirror in some ways where it's not a straight mirror. And so you see distorted versions of yourself or distorted versions of other people. So I'm just wondering if you could elaborate on the design of the mirror and that part of the installation.
[00:24:08.919] Lisa Schamlé: So the feeling I have, the image that I have of my own body is different in my mind when I close my eyes than what I see in the mirror. And I deliberately dismorphed my whole body through the photography. So I want the audience to have this same feeling with their own body. That's why it's a bit of like a mirror, like the laughing house. What did you say?
[00:24:34.417] Kent Bye: It's a funhouse mirror.
[00:24:35.998] Lisa Schamlé: Funhouse mirror, yeah, yeah. So this morphia of your own body, I wanted you to experience it yourself. And also the image, when you close your eyes, it's so weird how big things are. If you think about your own body, things are really big, really small in your mind. And then you have the mirror, a real mirror, which is representing something else. And this image of your own body in your head and the reality, This is such a weird space, and I wanted to show that. Also, when I look at my own body now, I look down at my feet, my hands are really big. And now you're looking at me, my hands are like a normal size. But all these thoughts you have about your body, I wanted to lay them out. Yeah, that's why I made that design.
[00:25:36.095] Kent Bye: Okay, so there's also photo installation parts of your performance where on the wall you have different words and phrases that you took a series of images of you making letters with your body and then you're spelling out different words and different phrases and then also other images that you have. Maybe you could talk about some of the other installation parts that you have of this performance.
[00:26:00.427] Lisa Schamlé: Yeah, so I made an alphabet letters with my own body. That's maybe less vulnerable but more political. I feel like the female mind is seen different than her body. The body belongs to the public space, to everyone. Then her mind... is difficult when she says no to sex her mind is being difficult but her body wants it it's what we see in movies with rape scenes so her mind is different than her body so i wanted to reclaim the power in my head with my body so i made letters with my own body to create text and these texts were very simple so saying this is my body i'm saying that with my own body especially with the whole abortion thing now very very accurate i think i wanted to take ownership of my own body yeah there's a couple other phrases do you remember what else was said in those photos So one is the more my body gets objectified, the more my body starts to feel like a performance piece instead of the home in which I live. And there's also one, this girl is tired of the body image rooted inside her head. There's also one, each part of this body is mine, my belly, my toes, my words. Yeah.
[00:27:37.904] Kent Bye: Okay. All right. And there's also a whole artist statement that you have that digs into more context of other references, the political implications and the gaze back. Maybe you can elaborate a little bit more on what you were saying in your artist statement.
[00:27:53.277] Lisa Schamlé: Yeah, so I made that together with a writer called Daan Borrel and we talked a lot about this theme and I read a lot about it, saw a lot of movies about it, documentaries and we made that together. into a text which is also part of the work it's not an elaborative text it's more of an artwork itself i think which is about the gays and about our sexual desires that they're political they're not personal yeah everything that i just said actually yeah
[00:28:27.799] Kent Bye: Nice. Okay. And so there's been a lot of discussion here within the context of some of the performance pieces, like Drinking Brecht is talking around kind of the Aristotelian model of catharsis, where you go into a theater and you cathart your emotions and then you leave the emotions there. And then the Brechtian approach, which is to really get engaged and to actually go out and cause political action and political change and so i'm wondering in the context of your piece how you see what you want them as to be the most kind of exalted or the best case scenario for what you want to see this type of work and what kind of impact it might have what i hope maybe that the audience takes with them
[00:29:12.269] Lisa Schamlé: I hope they can be softer towards themselves. I don't know. How do you feel about how did it make you feel?
[00:29:19.938] Kent Bye: Well, I thought so. There was moments when I first started seeing your body like morphed and changed. I was like, oh, wow, that's really brave. And I don't know if I would be willing to do that. But even more for women to do that is something that is even more higher stakes It's I think lower stakes for me just because I don't have that similar type of male gaze coming at me all the time also the the change that happened between the first part and the second part where there is this experience of the gaze back like looking back at me I was locking eyes and I was like, I'm not going to look away. But it also felt super intense and also like I was being implicated, like I had been caught. So it was that feeling of guilt and also Yeah.
[00:30:08.831] Lisa Schamlé: Why guilt?
[00:30:09.712] Kent Bye: Guilt, just because it's like that, you know, being subject. Well, I was looking your eyes, but you're also like putting your body in display. And so there's a bit of like the looking back is like, oh, I've been caught looking at a female body in a way that is in an objectifying context. And so I think it was sort of the full context of that. And then looking back. You know, I wanted to, as an experiential journalist, surrender myself to the full experience. It's like, oh, she's looking at people. I wonder what it's going to feel like if I look at her. And the first time I looked at you through the mirror and that was like, okay, because it felt like there was a level of distance. But I also noticed that you were looking directly at people not in the mirror, her on the side. So it's like, oh, I'm going to go over there because that was where... Someone else that I knew that was watching the show was in that position and you looked at her. I'm not sure if she noticed that you were looking at her, but then I went into that position where it was like I could look directly at you. I was like, I'm going to look directly at her, not through the mirror, unmediated. And that's where it felt like, oh, I feel like this is crossing a boundary or like it felt too intimate or felt like, yeah, that guilt of being caught in that objectifying context. I was looking at your eyes, but it still felt like that's the emotions and the feeling that came up. And I think the fact that you were, you know, in your description, you were talking about that gazing back. I think I may have read it ahead of time, and it wasn't until before our interview today that I read through it again. I was like, oh, that's what she was doing, and that was very deliberate. And so that experience was, you know, feeling implicated.
[00:31:39.847] Lisa Schamlé: Yeah, that experience was probably already there without reading it, reading about it. Well, I'm very happy that you feel calm.
[00:31:47.309] Kent Bye: Yeah, it was there. It's just I was naming it and seeing how much that was a part of the design of the performance, so yeah.
[00:31:53.090] Lisa Schamlé: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, and of course, I'm curating this whole thing, so it's not like you come into the white space. This is also intended. But this is just a micro thing that is happening. But it's also like in life, it's happening every day. So I wanted to make that experience bigger, more visual. And yeah, yeah.
[00:32:20.121] Kent Bye: And you mentioned a little bit of some of the feedback that you've received from women. Have you got any feedback from men or what's kind of the reactions that men have that you've been able to get?
[00:32:30.706] Lisa Schamlé: So there was one man who asked, why is this only about women? And I wondered if that was a question or a judgment. And I said, oh, I'm making this from my own experience, and I am a woman, so... That's why I think a lot of things are already written through the male perspective and that is called universal. So this is also a universal theme but the female body has a different political connotation. It has to do with power, I think, your body image. And I read that a lot of women are getting more power. And I read that a lot of men are feeling very uncomfortable about their body also. So it has to do with power. Yeah, yeah.
[00:33:26.195] Kent Bye: Nice. So you mentioned a book in your write-up, Ania Sarvashian, The Right to Sex. Maybe you could elaborate a little bit about what kind of inspirations you took from that book, The Right to Sex.
[00:33:38.143] Lisa Schamlé: so she talked about this couple a gay couple with one guy being fat and the other guy was like this is not the body type that i'm usually attracted to but i'm attracted to you as a person and then the person said with an active attitude i changed my sexual desires And it changed. And this is, I think, very important because it can change. It's not a natural thing who you think is attractive sexually. It's all political. And you can learn to love more bodies. Yeah.
[00:34:27.185] Kent Bye: Yeah. And so you've done a series of three pieces now on this theme of your body being objectified, sexuality, you know, what's next in terms of like, do you feel like there's other things that you want to continue to explore or are you going in another direction or where do you think you go from here?
[00:34:45.273] Lisa Schamlé: So I have this theater background and I love theater, but I also really like the contemporary art field or like the coats that you have in these rooms. And I want to combine those and put the strong parts and use them together. So the next piece I want to make about the laying passive female body. Yeah, this is where I am now, yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:35:17.081] Kent Bye: And is that more of a theater piece or more of a live performance, like performance art?
[00:35:23.004] Lisa Schamlé: So I notice in the Netherlands it's very difficult to make the work that I make because we're very rooted in these disciplines, very binary disciplines of this is theater, this is contemporary art and these are two separate things and also the whole... subsidy system revolves around that so I noticed that it's really difficult to walk that path alone but I want it and I really believe in it and I really believe that that this combination I don't think art is binary I think it's everything it should be combined But I think the next piece I want to make in a theater, this work I just made is very difficult to put that in the theater because I need white walls. You don't have that there most of the time. Yeah, yeah. But I don't really like that you're passive as an audience. Like curated, active. I like that. I don't like everybody sitting on a stage and... lights go on, lights go off, clapping, ending, bye, go home. I really like that they can walk around or that they sit around the performance to engage more with the piece, yeah, yeah.
[00:36:45.171] Kent Bye: Yeah, it seems like the differences between theater and live performance, you know, is like in theater, you're in seats and then there's a proscenium and then there's the stage. And I feel like there's immersive theater, which is trying to take away that proscenium and then you're walking around engaging a little bit more. But then there's performance art where, you know, in a lot of ways you're. using your body as a part of the performance or there's also different parts of the audience being able to more directly engage in a one-on-one way where there's less of an asymmetry where when you're in a theater you don't have that same type of freedom of movement with your body or ability to directly engage with the performance artist. And so when you think around some of the core differences of theater versus immersive theater versus performance art, I think you're maybe one of the first performance artists I've had to really a chance to talk to. I'm just curious to hear what you think is some of the core essence of the affordances of what performance art gives you as an artist to be able to explore through both your body in relation to the audience but also yeah just in general what what you're able to do in that form that you may not be able to do in like in a theatrical context
[00:37:57.028] Lisa Schamlé: I think the reality, if you compare film and theatre, we consider theatre as a film that is being played and it's the same every night. there's this danger in it which is very exciting to look at that's why we like to go to theater to look at the live event but we're just reenacting the same movie every evening when you go to a film you don't feel the same amount of danger in it but in performance art i think is dangerous, it's real. Like Marina Abramović says, the blood is real. Yeah, I think that's the difference, the reality. It's more, even more dangerous. Yeah.
[00:38:53.821] Kent Bye: Nice. And so what do you think the ultimate potential for that type of performance art might be and what it might be able to enable? Excuse me, can you? Oh, yeah. So a lot of my podcast has been focusing on virtual reality as a medium. And I feel like the more that I've gone on, the voices of VR is really too limiting for what I talk about. It's really about immersive art, immersive performance and immersive storytelling. And so the fact that you're part of the doc lab, immersive storytelling selection I think speaks to how there's multiple different mediums that are being represented in that context but yet at the same time there's still a core of the experience of what it feels like as an audience to go through these experiences you know the type of way I'm moving my body through space and interacting with you as a performer There's a live element, it's dangerous, but there's also other experiences in storytelling and other things that have the blending and blurring of theatrical elements, cinematic elements, live elements, performative elements, social elements that are kind of in this realm of immersive art and immersive performance and immersive storytelling. So I usually like to end my interviews by asking people what they think of the ultimate potential of all these forms of immersive storytelling and immersive art might be and what it might be able to enable as it continues to grow and evolve and change.
[00:40:18.976] Lisa Schamlé: I think humans are very empathetic people, especially when they're in a room with each other. So when there is this life element and of course with the phones and all and everything being at home on demand, we miss this connection with people. And this is the power that we have in theater and in performance art. which you don't have on the couch at home. I think it will continue to exist also because it's so humbling and it's so important to connect through that way. And the power of this real body, like I made this performance where you can be, you can come in, come in and look at me. There's just this tension there. I think people are really longing to experience. Yeah.
[00:41:17.109] Kent Bye: Great. Is there anything else that's left unsaid that you'd like to say to the broader immersive community?
[00:41:25.362] Lisa Schamlé: to the immersive community continue doing what you do and please still keep your interest in in this kind of art yeah i think it's really important yeah yeah
[00:41:40.330] Kent Bye: Awesome. Well, Lisa, thank you so much for joining me here on the podcast and really enjoyed your piece and especially a chance to kind of break it down and talk more around your process and making it and all the different themes that you're talking about here. And, you know, a little bit as to what's happening inside of you as you're feeling it, but also like the deeper reasons for why you're doing it. And of course, it's all there written out and some of the different artist statements and everything else. But I think I I got even more context and information in terms of the deeper dynamics that you're really addressing in your piece. And it's really both quite powerful as a piece of performance art that I've had a chance to experience myself, but also great to hear a little bit more around your process and journey in creating it. So thanks so much for joining me to help break it all down.
[00:42:22.919] Lisa Schamlé: Thank you so much. Thank you.
[00:42:25.148] Kent Bye: Thanks again for listening to the Voices of VR podcast. And I really would encourage you to consider supporting the work that I'm doing here at the Voices of VR. It's been over a decade now and I've published over 1500 interviews and all of them are freely available on the voicesofvr.com website with transcripts available. This is just a huge repository of oral history, and I'd love to continue to expand out and to continue to cover what's happening in the industry, but I've also got over a thousand interviews in my backlog as well. So lots of stuff to dig into in terms of the historical development of the medium of virtual and augmented reality and these different structures and forms of immersive storytelling. So please do consider becoming a member at patreon.com slash voices of VR. Thanks for listening.
