I interviewed director Wen Yee Hsieh and producer Sebox Hong about Limbophobia that showed at IDFA DocLab 2024. See the transcript down below for more context on our conversation.
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[00:00:05.458] Kent Bye: The Voices of VR Podcast. Hello, my name is Kent Bye, and welcome to the Voices of VR Podcast. It's a podcast that looks at the structures and forms of immersive storytelling and the future of visual computing. You can support the podcast at patreon.com slash voicesofvr. So continuing my series of looking at different experiences from IFA Doc Lab 2024, today's episode is with a piece called Lumbophobia, which is a part of the Immersive Nonfiction Competition. So in the previous episode, we talked about Limitopia, which was the first piece in this sequence of pieces that was released by Wen Yi. So I saw that back at Filmgate Miami back in December of 2023. And Libetophobia was either the sequel or prequel. I think it's probably the prequel coming before just in the timeline of things. But is exploring all these poetic feelings of existential angst of a big event, it feels like a big climate disaster in terms of what's happening in the context. But there's a lot of ways that that's kind of being poetically interpreted and extrapolated into different vibes and feelings of using the medium of virtual reality to kind of modulate these different types of feelings. So a little bit more details from both the director, Wen Yi, as well as the producer, Seabox, to kind of unpack both the process of creating this and also translating it into a dome experience. So we talked in the previous episode around translating Lobotopia into a dome experience, which in Filmgate Miami was more of a forward-facing dome experience. And then with lumbophobia, it was more on a planetarium where you're like looking more at this concentric dome, which is more of like the equivalent of you can kind of think about a 360 video and chopping off the bottom part and then how to use that top half of the 360 video in order to translate your experience. So there's a number of different modulations they had to make in order to get this to work. So we're covering all that and more on today's episode of the Voices of VR podcast. And unfortunately, my voice was continuing to get out throughout the course of these different conversations. So you'll hear a little bit more of my crackly voice. So this interview with Wenyi and Seabox happened on Tuesday, November 19th, 2024 at IFA DocLab in Amsterdam, Netherlands. So with that, let's go ahead and dive right in.
[00:02:17.183] Wen Yee Hsieh: Hello, I'm Wenyi, and I was an architectural design background artist. And this time I brought Limbophobia here in IDFA, and this is my second VR piece. And my previous VR piece, it's called Limbotopia. And although it had a very similar name, but they are totally different art direction in the narrative.
[00:02:42.978] Sebox Hong: I'm Zed Boggs. I'm the producer of Lymphophobia. And I used to work for Kaohsiung Film Festival for a while. And I'm now a freelance producer, producing with independent artists like Wen Yi. So this time, I not only produce Lymphophobia, but I also co-write the structure of the Lymphophobia and go through the process of transforming VR360 to Dome, which is a really exciting journey.
[00:03:05.646] Kent Bye: MARK MANDELMANN- Maybe you could each give a bit more context as to your background and your journey into the space.
[00:03:13.052] Wen Yee Hsieh: Yeah, so when I was still in the architecture design, I was thinking of some of the possibility to expand a much more interior space into another form of art itself. But I realized it's quite hard or quite impossible to really put yourself into a form of art into the architecture. So I ended up trying to use theatre for the first time. So in 2020, at that time, I used theatre to form an interior space, trying to describe something much more emotional. And then also in 2020, I found out VR is also kind of the cross point of different media during my practice with the theatre. So then I jumped into VR and I made a demo at that time. And then it becomes Limbo-Topia in 2021. So after my first project, I wrote the second piece. It is Limbo-Phobia. And the first draft is in 2021. And then we start the production in 2022, which is also founded by Kaohsiung Film Archive in Taiwan.
[00:04:34.946] Sebox Hong: Yeah, so as I said, before moving into XR industry, I did a lot of different kinds of job in movie industry. I did movie distribution, also I wrote film critics. So that's when 2020, I joined Kaohsiung Film Archive, Kaohsiung Film Festival and end up in 2022 being curator of the XR program. And I left Kaohsiung Film Archive to start my own company, to start working with artists, because I think that is a way to really deliver more and more exciting art piece as a helper of all the artists. So that's why I'm here. Yeah.
[00:05:13.708] Kent Bye: And did you work on Limbatopia at all? Or maybe you could talk about, like, when did you come on board for this project?
[00:05:19.764] Sebox Hong: Alright, so I knew Wen Yi back in 2021 when Libotopia was submitted in Kaohsiung Film Festival competition. That's when the director of In The Mist introduced us this really young talent who did all the VR 360 on himself with Cinema 4D software. And we were really impressed by the quality and the universe he built in the virtual reality. So I didn't really work on Limbotopia, but I was quite familiar with this project. And when I left Kaohsiung Film Festival, I had the chance to talk with TAICA, which is a cultural institute in Taiwan. And they support Wenyi, kind of like a little subsidy to make Limbotopia into DONG. So that's when I started to think that that could be a way for the artists to transform their work into different kinds of media in order to maintain the living. So I started to work with Wenyi only in lymphophobia. And so we planned to make VR360 and Dawn. So that was on purpose. Yes.
[00:06:23.064] Kent Bye: Okay. And I had a chance to see Limbophobia last year in Miami at Filmgate and we had a chance to talk and I'm going to air that interview and this interview because I feel like they're building off each other in a lot of ways that you even talked around Limbophobia when we were talking last in Miami. But maybe from your perspective, map out the arc from Limbophobia and then now what you were expanding in from Limbophobia. limbophobia and if you really see them as a lineage and a sequel and you know just catch us up on limbotopia and then what you were starting to do with limbophobia.
[00:06:53.972] Wen Yee Hsieh: Yeah so it's actually a draft we developed in 2020 is about if we consider the cityscape as a collective human beings of consciousness and we are living in the pieces of other people So for architecture designer, they usually have to solve the problems in the city, which is already existing in our physical world. But sometimes we will forget to consider in our design or in our project who exactly we are in our piece. So that's how we try to develop something that's pretty individual or isolated from the physical world. And then Limbotopia is kind of tricky because I'm still in the architecture design institute at that time. And then we somehow have to serve for the architecture design educational program. So we started with a architecture design, which is also called Limbotopia. And I also cooperated with my friends at that time. And then he's the architecture designer. So Limbotopia is something more half and half. We use or blend our thoughts and what we want to do into the project. But in another half, it is also like an extension from the original architecture design. So after that, when we know we were selected by Kaohsiung Film Festival and also we wrote the Limbophobia, the draft for the workshop at that time in Kaohsiung. And then we finally knew we had a chance to do something a deep develop with our very personal draft in the very beginning. So when we started the production, we know Limbophobia is much more personal and much more darker or much more tend to the original draft we wrote in 2020. So I would say Limutopia and Limbophobia is happening in the same universe but it is also sequel but I won't tell the audience which one is first and which one is the second one but you can somehow feel one of them is happening in a huge event and you are just going through the aftermath but one of them is in the huge event and you can totally dive into that event and going through the events together with the whole dimension.
[00:09:38.982] Kent Bye: So CBOX, when you came on board, there's different design constraints that you have for Dome and for VR. And so talk about some of those constraints that you were working with Wenyi in order to shape a narrative, or if you really let the VR go free to do whatever you want. And then so thinking about like, the dome as a constraint and if that was feeding into how the narrative was unfolding and your role as a producer to rein in some of those creative aspirations to make sure that it was working for both.
[00:10:10.114] Sebox Hong: So, well, it's a really tricky question because I think that as a producer on Limbophobia, when it comes to transforming from VR to Dome, I let Wenyi decide all the things. So what I did was actually, I mean, we were lucky enough to have the commission by Taika last year to make Limbophobia into Dome. So Wenyi has already gained experience from making that. so in which that he can actually know how to adjust the angle at the perspective for the dome people but what I was trying to say it is tricky is because that there's a lot of different kinds of domes so they are let's say the centric kind of domes and like different kinds of domes so the one we encountered was quite different from last year in Filmgate Miami and this year in ITFA So what we did is basically, because we are 360, you do have a directional journey or path for the audience to go on. So we try to make this individual experience, expand it into a collective experience, but still maintain the direction of the author's approach of how when he wants to let the audience see. under this gigantic projection. So I didn't really do much, I just helped him to really sort it out, all the paperwork.
[00:11:27.702] Kent Bye: Okay, well let's dive into limbophobia and unpack different aspects of that. Maybe let's start with the dome versus the VR because I'm glad I saw the VR first because there's a lot of stereoscopic effects that really jump out when you have the two perspectives that allow you to have that sense of depth. Because you have a lot of things that are happening at different fields of depth. So you have in your field, sometimes you're looking through something and you're able to get this sense that you're contained within something. Other times you also move the camera. And I know that sometimes like in the VR, it's like really intense movements where I have to close my eyes. Otherwise, I know I'm going to get a little motion sick. And then in the dome, I found that it was a little bit more comfortable because I just had more capacity to have that type of movement within the dome. But I know that there's a certain amount of like when you do those movements, it is generating discomfort. And I'm wondering if that... was intentional to create that discomfort or disorientation as a viewer and how you're starting to navigate some of that and if that's something more of like giving the feedback if you know in the future you'll have less those camera movements or if that's something that's very deliberate in terms of like directly engaging the audience in a way that is making them feel a little bit unsettled because the nature of this piece does seem to be exploring these themes of also being unsettled so yeah just love to hear some of your thoughts on that
[00:12:48.120] Wen Yee Hsieh: Yeah, like I think for the motion sickness, I think throughout Limbophobia, there are so many different elements are like during the whole production, we are trying to find the balance between everything like motion sickness or some people watch Limbophobia, they will feel a little bit being scared by the film. But we are trying to balance everything. You can feel it, but it's not so much. There's a very intensive motion sickness chapter. It was originally planned in two to three minutes, but then in the second round of the optimization progress, we shrink it down to one minute. and also chopping off some of the very, very sick and very crazy movements. But I think for the core concept it's all trying to create a feeling of you are being thrown out of a room and then you are no place to land but when you are still in a very dizzy like a very bad feeling and then you end up landing in another dimension So it's more like you're having a nightmare and then you woke up and you are feeling, yeah, I'm actually safe and landed on the ground. It's not something happening in the nightmare. And I think the whole project is trying to create a kind of feeling like the audience is crossing through different reality in somehow a very realistic scene in each different chapter. But those chapters are also somehow very, you can say it's very personal, like the window in the very beginning of the project. like there's a very murky window and there's a thunderstorm outside and I believe that's the kind of experience everyone will have like you're peeking through the bus or peeking through the window in your bedroom and then watching the thunderstorm outside it's like everyone will have the same experience but for the stereoscopic things it's Yeah, I think it's something only VR can do for the 3D effects. Like you can only get to know the scale of the thing in front of you or the distance in front of you. And then you'll get to know how the creator want to create the space, maybe it's for a privacy design. Like for Limbophobia, I think it's mostly trying to discuss about your personal individual state and collective state outside your window and you are trying to decide whether you have to or you are forced to leave the space or the room you are in inside or
[00:15:46.654] Kent Bye: Yeah, you are trying to like being forced to pull out from your personal space and join something pretty chaotic Yeah in this piece I think visually it works really well in the context of a dome and I think that there's a lot of poetic metaphoric imagery in a way that feels like a dream like a dream logic that I'm going through but also like with the point clouds, you're giving the sense of motion and flow that I think is kind of evoking different emotions. And I kind of got this like existential terror while I was watching it in terms of like, you know, I did the interview with the curator, some doc lab, and they were talking around like, this is sort of a piece around the existential angst and terror around climate change. And there's a lot of like imagery of weather and extreme weather and storms and you know, water that's like really swashing around a lot. But so you're kind of like having these representations of physical reality through these storms, but also like these more poetic, imaginative abstractions that are allowing us to get a feel of the shape and the movement that also are drawing out different feelings, but can be difficult to know exactly like what the references might be other than creating a different feeling or emotion or a vibe. So very curious to hear about your process of designing what you want to communicate. And if it's starting with a feeling, starting with an image, starting with a space, like where do you begin when you start to prototype and take people on this journey that you're taking them on on Lumbophobia?
[00:17:23.976] Wen Yee Hsieh: Well, I'll start with the weather thing. I designed or I choose to use something like a thunderstorm or a very cloudy weather throughout the piece is to create a feeling of you are feeling something bad is coming. And also for the journey, you are keep going through the whole universe. But I think the weather is getting worse and worse. So I think that for the weather, it's a process of making the audience feeling, yeah, there's something not so good in their back of the journey. And for the draft, yes, I think I usually create some kind of the concept art first to capture a feeling. Like in the very first Limbophobia draft, it's a... Yeah, and I think Ifa also printed on the cover of their brochure. It's a white man sitting on the rooftop of the skyscraper. And then it's actually from the very first draft is about the audience is the person who trying to commit a suicide and jump down the skyscraper in the whole collective consciousness cityscape. But the audience end up, they're not going to hit the ground and they are not going to like bump into the first floor. They just somehow broke the dimension and then going through a very dizziness journey, which they cannot even touch the ground. And it feels like you're losing the gravity and it's something feeling not so safe. And this feeling is come from what's happening during 2020 and 2021 when I was trying to cross a border between the architecture itself and the art personally.
[00:19:21.250] Sebox Hong: Did you pull up something here? That's the poster we were just talking about. Okay. So there's actually an illuminating man who is sitting on the rooftop of the whole city. And the whole city was really dedicated in the way it was destroyed afterwards. So maybe when you do want to talk a little bit more about the forage of the consciousness, like how do you address the forces to destroy the whole city?
[00:19:49.412] Wen Yee Hsieh: I think maybe because we are also a very individual group and we are not like a huge company so somehow you're feeling like you are being in a collective consciousness and somehow you feel you are being pulled off down the water and you are drowning into the collective consciousness So then I try to transform it into an architectural or a space language to use the material to describe this kind of feeling. So the concept art ends up becoming a man sitting in a cityscape and he looks very small compared to the whole cityscape and you know in the city There are different kind of architecture everywhere, and each of them are different architect's design, right? And it feels like you are living in different pieces or different thoughts from others. we are also in the same group of the space so we need to like somehow trying to trying to communicate with the whole environment but somehow you don't feel this is a great idea to really trying to have a lot of the connection of the communicate with the others because sometimes it's not the solution So that's how this concept art is coming from. I think it's a very depressing and a very hopeless way.
[00:21:27.967] Kent Bye: Yeah, and so when you are building out this piece, you start with the concept art and the idea and the story, kind of the arc, and then do you build out one scene and go from one scene to the next, or are you trying to tune into a feeling and create a lot of different types of... Because you use a lot of point clouds and flowing and constructing and deconstructing. Sometimes point clouds come into form, sometimes they're deconstructed, and so they're going back and forth between... identifiable forms and like unidentifiable forms where there's like more of a flow dynamic than it is like a shape so it's like more of a process than an object and so you're kind of going back and forth between these different modes of expressing spatially these different what I read is like these kind of gives me a sense of a feeling or I don't know it also gives me a sense of awe and wonder of like the types of abstractions that just I think really work well in like a dome context or even in VR that gives me the sense of awe and wonder because I don't know exactly how to make sense of it. I can't always identify the patterns and so it's always kind of putting me in this like, oh, what is happening? How do I? I can't put an easy name on what this is, what's happening, but but it gives me a feeling. And so I'm wondering how you like, you know, start to develop that type of visual language and pattern language in order to like create an overall journey and what your process is to work in both the physical forms but also the more abstract forms.
[00:22:57.751] Wen Yee Hsieh: Yeah, I think for the storytelling I usually will do two different processes. One is writing some words and some sentence to maybe like what will the audience feel throughout the whole journey and what's the dynamic or what's the chapter and the different chapter it's going to lead the audience into. Very specific feelings and The differences between each chapter will also tell them or have some meaning in different chapters. And in the end of the project, I will also wrote something like what will the audience get or what will the audience feel or take away from the VR cinema. Yeah, and this is one process. And another one is drawing the image and drawing something like a mood board and something like I'm very specific and very sure I need this scene or need the chapter inside of the project. And then I will, in the second step, I will then decide which chapter or which scene I drawn is going to be in the storyline. So I think the whole production is also a back and forth between keep checking if something I draw is matched the thing I wrote.
[00:24:24.187] Sebox Hong: So there comes a process when I was in talk with Wenyi regarding his thoughts and the mood board he just mentioned. So we kind of like put it into the structure of the whole narration because it's not really linear narrative way of doing that. So we try to make sure that every chapter and every chapter has a reasonable bridge between each other because when he's like since he has a architectural background he really is really good at using space to play with the feeling of the audiences so we will try to make sure that every scenery every chapter really delivers the vibe and really get the audiences understand not to understand literally but have a sense of what is happening and have a sense of, let's say, terrifying or have a sense of questioning, confusion, this kind of different feelings. So restructure that after all the mood boards and then we build up the whole thing all together.
[00:25:23.184] Kent Bye: Are there Any indications in the piece of when the piece goes from one chapter to the next? Because my memory is that it just felt like a continual arc. You may fade to black, you may fade up, or there's no title cards, there's no words, you're just kind of experiencing it. And so is there any indication to the audience of these chapter shifts, or is this more of your own internal planning of the journey that you're taking the audience on?
[00:25:49.392] Wen Yee Hsieh: I would say not only Limbophobia and also in Limbophobia I always try to create the whole experience in a very continuous way and it's not going to stop and there's no exactly black screen or something you will feel like oh the experience is stopped or maybe the creator is trying to have a little break for the audience it's not happening in my project if I want the audience to like something like a break and it was still a kind of very abstract way to make the audience feels like they are taking a break but it's not a completely black screen to stop the experience yeah or I think that's quite hard for the audience to get back from that break
[00:26:44.924] Sebox Hong: I think what we've done to split out the chapters was not really obvious for the audience but there's a way for us to really understand the narration like subtext of the whole experience that we want the audience move from emotion A to emotion B and emotion C but somehow ABC may not be like independent like they could be add up when they feel confusing and terrified at the same time this kind of thing so we didn't really separate it into chapters but there's a really really brilliant transition when I saw when you did that I was really impressed when people are kind of like out of focus in a way. And then you concentrate back to the story itself. That's kind of an antidote when you share with me about because he has consistently working in front of the computer for like long time. So his eyes might be really, really tired. There's a warning information from his body. It's like he's totally out of focus and he needs to rest a little bit to walk out a little bit and then give the focus back to concentrate again. which I feel is a really good way in Libephobia to let the audience feel a little bit about how the artist feel when he's creating a work.
[00:28:02.901] Kent Bye: Yeah, watching it, I didn't detect any of those chapters. And also, I certainly had a lot of feelings and emotions as I was watching it. But it honestly feels like a dream that you took me through. And that sometimes when you're trying to recount the dream, you can have little flashes of images. But it's difficult for me to even put words to and describe. And so there's a part of this conversation where it's difficult to fully unpack all the things just because it ends up being part of the emotions that I was feeling, which is... this existential angst or terror or fear and really like not being afraid to lean into it but really just sit with it in a way like it's not a piece that is trying to resolve it in any way it's just like facing it which I think it's like facing the reality of this terror I was talking to Casper Stone and he said like this is a piece that could have a trigger warning for people that are Afraid of climate change. I don't know if I'd go that far as because I didn't feel like it was like triggering in any way. But I think it's it's a type of piece where you just want to really face the darkness and not look away. And I think that's the kind of like vibe that I got from it.
[00:29:10.342] Wen Yee Hsieh: Yeah and I think also because the first draft is also very dark and it's very strange or very impossible for the government to found these kind of very very very strange projects but I think I'm very lucky like Kaohsiung Film Archive really found this project and I think this is the chance I need to express the very different perspective to see the world. So I quote a line from a book, it's called Will Grayson, Will Grayson, in the very beginning of the project, which I think it can really summarize the whole project. It says, I was always struggling between killing myself and killing other people, like during my lifetime. And I think for Limbophobia, it's transforming into another way to use spaces and use different dimensions and the whole universe to try to describe this feeling into how can you face something that you think it might be a little bit dark to the whole society or your environment, but somehow you can express them into the art.
[00:30:33.370] Kent Bye: Yeah, I'd be very curious to hear if you're willing to share. I understand if you don't want to dig into too much of the architecture of your own thoughts, if you want to leave the piece for people who have their own experiences. But I'd love to hear if you would be willing to map out the journey from emotion to emotion. Because it feels like a piece that's very much trying to cultivate different emotions. And I'm just personally curious between what your design intent was in trying to match it to my own experience in a way that is trying to unpack and make sense of it more. You know, if you're willing to share that, I'd love to hear more.
[00:31:07.053] Wen Yee Hsieh: So like in the very first chapter, it's all started in an empty and black space, which is you can only sense the whole world by a little window. I think that's the first chapter I want to tell the audience that Every human being will have their own empty space in their lifetime and they will have their choices to try to involve into something it's outside or not really in their business. But sometimes you are forced to join the event, but you're not willing to do that. but once you get out of your own empty space and you cross the border and it will become something a non-stop journey and sometimes it can end pretty bad it's a bad ending but yeah for Limbofobia it's a bad ending so I think that's why the first chapter and some of the elements connect with the ending of this piece. It's something already implied to you in the very first scene in the chapter. Yeah, I think I'll just share something about the beginning and the ending. But throughout the whole crazy things during the project, I think I will just let the audience to try themselves.
[00:32:32.067] Kent Bye: Yeah, that totally makes sense. You're beginning the piece with some quotes that you mentioned and you end the piece with some quotes. And so I'd love to have you elaborate some of these quotes that you wanted to bookend this piece with, some of the different messages that you wanted to Communicate through words because you're communicating a lot through spatial movements and then you know at the end you end it with some of these reflective quotes that are being much more specific
[00:32:56.687] Wen Yee Hsieh: Yeah, so in the ending, the first quote is from Pascal. It's called Every Humanity's Problem is about they cannot very quietly sitting alone in his room. And I think this it's something that have a connection with the very first chapter and what's the project is leading to the bad ending. And then I decided to show the quote because there is actually no dialogue throughout the film. I think the quote has a very strong connection with my personal core concept to build this project. So I decided to use it to quote it in the end of the film. And there are three sentences in the end of Limbophobia. So the first one is quote and the rest of the two are written by myself. And the second sentence is actually describing the thing of if you have an accidentally slip through the wilderness and it means you accidentally leave your own space and leave your own empty space, it will definitely become a non-stop journey. Maybe you have to spring throughout your whole life to cross a border that somehow may not really be something you can cross. But it's like a promise to myself. The sentence is like a promise to myself of if I can really keep doing art piece during my lifetime I'm not sure but I think this project is something I will keep looking back when I was like 30 or 40 or 50 because it has a lot of meaning during 23 to 26 years old during my lifetime it's something also I was trying to cross a border between different identities and different industries. So that's what goes to the last sentence I wrote in the ending. Because limbophobia in Chinese, it actually means the dark side. And I feel like I can always sense the dark side of everything. And I always can think of the bad ending of every situation. And for me, I think I have no control of my thoughts to go with the directions, but it always comes directly into my mind. so the ending of the sentence is actually trying to also be a feedback to myself to maybe something it's a brighter side but it's being blinded so I'm not sure like my third project or my fourth project the rest of them will become I'm not so sure but I think it will always goes with the whole environment and I think it's something I hope maybe in the future of my artistic practice it will become something different because it's a little bit painful to always stay in the dark side of your own personality.
[00:36:10.475] Kent Bye: You have one more follow-on question, and then I'd love to dive into some of the dome considerations for this piece. So at the Artist's Planetarium, after your screening, Toby Coffey asked you whether or not you were going to continue to build physical architecture spaces. And you were pretty much like, no, no way. I'm done with that. I'm moving on to modulating space to create emotions or feelings. And maybe you could elaborate on what is it about the medium of VR with the background and training in architecture that You're way more interested in working in the virtual space than you are in the physical space.
[00:36:45.689] Wen Yee Hsieh: Yeah, I think VR is just a tool or a kind of media to, you know, you can really start from scratch and start from an empty space and Unlike the traditional architecture design, I mean maybe in Taiwan is much more into solving the problems from the city and it's really different from or we could say for an artist it's always the idea or the concept is always start from your personal feeling or the perspective you see from the whole world and it's always quite hard for the architecture designer to really put in what they really think of our external space, exterior space into their own piece. So I think the VR is a very great medium to really separate the two different dimensions and not to conflict with each other. So that's why I start to use VR to create something like a... It's also start with architecture designing or designing the spaces or designing the whole landscape or the cityscape. But you can really try to describe your whole perspective of how you see the world, how you see everything in your environment in a completely individual space.
[00:38:14.741] Kent Bye: Nice. Yeah, thanks for that. I wanted to ask around the dome and dome considerations because there's some domes where it's more of a stadium where everybody has a single perspective, like more of a 180 view where you're looking forward versus a planetarium is more like you're looking up and it's more of a 360 view where you're kind of taking the top and then leaving the bottom or having to tilt the camera in a way that makes it feel like you're able to still see where you're going, but it ends up being where if you're in a planetarium and you're looking up, then there could be good seats or bad seats in a way that the piece doesn't make as much sense if you're looking at it from a 90-degree perspective or you're looking at it upside down. And there's really kind of a sweet spot where you want to be watching the planetarium experience. Now, I think when the front-facing dome's with more 180, it tends to be like... everybody's kind of having more of a similar experience than a different experience and more of a planetarium and so it's certainly a design challenge that you have to take into account so i'd love to hear how each of you start to like as you're building the piece making sure that it could be adapted for each of these different affordances and some of the trade-offs or challenges that you have in terms of making it work as a dome piece across these multiple different types of formats and contexts
[00:39:28.628] Sebox Hong: Yeah, as you mentioned there's a lot of different kinds of domes and what we tried is trying to make sure that what shape or like what form is it and we adjust a little bit about the camera angle and also the movement to make sure that the audience get the equality of experiences this project. But that's one of my thoughts that I didn't check with ITVA at this time, that what kinds of dome they are having. So it was quite interesting when we see like two nights before the premiere night, we went for the rehearsaling and it was like, oh no, we didn't check that. We thought it was like the One Direction kind of planetarium style of dome, but it's actually a dome-centric dome. We tried to make some adjustment but in the end we found out that that could be the essence of the dome projections that we don't have the equality to watch everything. But of course we've talked with Kaspar and also Toby regarding this as we claim as a problem but what they've gave us is really supporting, really kind words that it's a matter of it's suitable for the Dome or not. It's not a direction that the angle or the perspective. So we thought that, all right, so that we'll just go with it this time. But it was a pity that if we do have some more time that we probably play with the shape of the Dome to create a more full dimensional perspective for all the audiences. I guess we were quite satisfied with the feedback from the audience, so this time we'll... And of course we are still in talks with different domes all over the world, so what we'll be making sure next time will be the shape of that and how many projectors will be there, then we could definitely play with the technique itself to make it more complete.
[00:41:18.652] Wen Yee Hsieh: Yeah, I think for the audience, from their feedback, I think for the whole experience, they are not really, really think the direction is a problem, but they are more like enjoying the overwhelming feeling from the dome and the visual, the overwhelming visual from the huge huge screen and also how live cinema energy is created from the dome itself because of maybe the sound system is different from the VR headset or for the whole huge screen. And I think that's the thing. I think it's very different from the VR showcase. There's a very strong energy from the collective audience. And, yeah.
[00:42:02.300] Kent Bye: Yeah, I thought it worked quite well in terms of... It was designed as a VR piece, and so it's being adapted to the dome, but it also felt like it could have been just built for the dome because it worked so well in the dome. It happened to be in a good seat, so I don't know if my... experience would have been quite different if I was in like a different section you know you were kind enough to give me a little bit of a tip off as to like where to optimize to have a better viewing experience than not but I feel like you know with the planetarium you're often looking up and looking up at the stars and there's a way that using the point clouds and the motion that it It's a lot more dynamic than how those stars are moving, but it still gave me the sense of awe and wonder as I was watching the different metaphoric scenes that are shown and just a lot of like not explained imagery, but more symbolic and just giving me a sense of a vibe or feeling that worked quite well. And like I said earlier, I'm glad I saw the VR piece first because I thought that there's some looking through the window I think works better through VR because you get a depth and then there's another part where you're In this container that's kind of flying around and I feel like you know I felt more present in that container in the VR than I did in the dome But I feel like even though it gets flattened It still works in a way that overall is a piece that it just I don't know I just is very awe-inspiring and I thought that You know in terms of the types of pieces that work really well in the dome This feels like a piece that was made with both in mind in a way that really uses the affordances of both the VR in the dome Yeah, that's just some thoughts
[00:43:28.357] Sebox Hong: Maybe that's because of the experiences Wenyi had with making the Limbotopia into dome. So he kind of has a sense of how do we really make it into... because the original piece is actually VR360. So it's really by Wenyi's abstract visualizing a virtual world. This kind of materials is really suitable for dome projection. And also to mention that we're selected also by Tribeca this year. The way we kind of work with, because Tribeca this year worked with Mercer Labs, which is an immersive museum. So we were put into an infinity room instead of VR or Dome or like the things we've met before. So I think by the experience of working with Mercer Labs in a way to make sure how do we adopt our projects into different kinds of media really give us the experiences and the lessons that we can take to understand how the audience will feel in a way in different kinds of media how do we well transform all our materials onto those projection or led panels yeah
[00:44:37.645] Kent Bye: Yeah, I had an interview with Anna Brzezinska from the Tribeca curator and she was talking about how it was kind of a last minute change in terms of like pivoting over to the Mercer Labs immersive space and that there's a number of different creators that had not a lot of time to put together something that would work, but that you were one of the artists to show us. Maybe you could just elaborate on your process of what that was like to get a last minute call to then show something within this infinity room.
[00:45:05.936] Wen Yee Hsieh: Yeah, so we were actually back in before the Tribeca is beginning, we were actually trying to use or I'm not sure about the process of the selection of Tribeca this year, but we thought there will still be a VR section this year. we were sending the Limbophobia to the Tribeca team but they said they were very interested to the project but they are not going to do a VR showcase this year but instead they are trying to do something more experimental so I think the Tribeca team has a feeling to try something to do a transformation from the VR storytelling into a much more collective experience. So we end up using two of the most important chapters in Limbophobia to try to do like an expansion of the original chapter into the whole Infinity Mirror room because we already have the experience to transform something a very personal experience into a collective one. So we try to like trying to use the same of the lesson from Filmgate Miami to the Tribeca this year and some of them is also working because like like in the VR to play with some of the lights in the whole VR 360 it works and you'll get some of the blinding lights or a blinking feeling in the VR but it will not work in the huge installation or in the dome because It's much more like an ending of the cinema or a theater. It's like the whole space is turning white and pretty bright and it's not the same experience from the VR. So that's an example of the same problem of the transformation to Dome and also in the Infinity Room. so i think after the dome premiere from the film gates miami and also tribeca so i think this time we actually we also have no much time to really do the transformation to dome for limbo phobia but we actually have a lot of experience to transform something into a huge installation things So I think overall I would say it goes well but there's also something that is unexpected like the audience and audience seats angle it's like we know that in the last minutes when we are doing the rehearsal and we were like oh no this is going to some of the audience were not going to experience the thing with the audience from the best seat yeah.
[00:47:54.554] Kent Bye: Right, and finally, what do you each think is the ultimate potential of virtual reality and immersive storytelling, and what it might be able to enable?
[00:48:03.859] Wen Yee Hsieh: Yeah, let me think about it a little bit, and then I'll hand it to Sebox first.
[00:48:09.982] Sebox Hong: All right, all right, sure. Okay, so for me, because I was a curator, I was in the film festival, and I've seen so many really, really good VR projects, but It's a shame that we still don't have a business model to really deliver to a massive audience in a way that we don't have an XR theater. We do have a lot of immersive venues that have massive projections, but not like one in Kaohsiung. We have like a VR theater that's 30 seats over there, like a cinema. So for me it was always an issue for the producer to really sort out the problem of how do we distribute this kind of immersive experiences to the audience. So what I think that could be something really potentially developing is that if we see the goggles would be more popularized in a way. I think we talked about it like two years ago to see if the goggles could be more popularized and then we can have a platform to really deliver this VR content into individuals all around the world. But at the same time, during this year working with Wen Yi and other artists, I found out that VR, like virtual reality with goggles might not be the only solution of distribution, but also that by these two or three kinds of experiences that we can actually transform VRticity into projection mapping, into dome projections that can accommodate more people, like 300 times more people for one screening, that could be a way for people really, for the general public to have the interest of it. And also in ITVA Dark Lab this time, Avinash was helping Dollhouse, made by Queerspace, trying to stream the VR chats onto DOM. That is also a way to really show the general public how is it within the headset. So that could raise the awareness of how people can really get into VR. So that's what I think could really help the artist to find some alternative way to maintain their creation journey and also maintain their living. But also wondering if we can have, in terms of what do I expect in the future, like what should it be? I would say if there could be a goggle or devices more easier to wear or like easier to access. that would be the ultimate solution for people really getting into the virtual reality but not knowing if they should buy a goggle themselves or they just go to the venue so i think there's a bunch of people who are really into promoting different kinds of way to really let's say there's a bunch of people who are really into vr assets but there are a bunch of people who really hate wearing something on their head So I think we should make into a balance to see like what are those who don't like to wear headsets, what's the reason and then we kind of like try to solve the problem and then we put it into a like semi solution that we put it on projections to let them in. So this is a possibility for different kinds of the audiences can enjoy a similar or the same from the same project with a similar but quite different experiences.
[00:51:34.641] Wen Yee Hsieh: Yeah, I think also for the VR headset issue is also because most of our projects or like for the studio or the company that are doing the VR pieces are more rely on the VR headset that it's like most common in the market. Like right now it's Meta Quest 2 and Quest 3. They are the most common headset in the market. But I think there are much more potential to do something in the VR. Like in Apple Vision Pro, the resolution is very, very high and you can really do much more spatial audio design to really, like you don't require an ambisonic space. You can really just let the audience to experience the Dolby Atmos in the headset. And that's somehow the limitation of the headset itself right now. But also, like just Sebak said, wearing a very heavy headset on your head is not a very human thing. And I think it's very lucky to have the chance to experience the whole Tribeca Immersive this year. I start to have a feeling because I used to create pieces in the VR, try to doing something very isolated from our physical world. But the Tribeca Immersive this year is, I have a feeling of the interior state of the artists is like really crossing through into our physical space in another way. And I think it's very interesting to start to thinking of the installation or everything in the real life venue that give you the feeling of that's something it's expanding from the virtual reality. And we did that design actually in 2023 when Limbophobia was premiered in Taiwan, in Kaohsiung. So the very first draft is actually trying to give the feeling of when the audience is taking off the headset and they will feel like they are in a chapter, in the final chapter of the Limbophobia in the VR headset. So somehow it can create a vibe of you are still in the virtual reality, but it's just messing up with your head. And I think for the new media and for the new media installation, it's something like a new material. We can think about it to blending together with the completely isolated reality right now.
[00:54:16.385] Kent Bye: Is there anything else that's left unsaid? Any final thoughts that you'd like to share to the broader Armistice community?
[00:54:24.468] Wen Yee Hsieh: Well, like for Limbophobia and Limbotopia, I think you just need to sit back and relax, but not after your meal, please.
[00:54:37.033] Sebox Hong: Yeah, for me, I would say something about IDFA this year, because this is actually my first time here, and I... I've been to a lot of workshops and playrooms and this is actually making me feel really vital in a way to see creators exploring new boundaries, like exploring over the boundaries to see how can they build up in a way. So it really reflects on how me and Wayne is doing to transform different kinds of media from VR to 360. And in a way, I would love to shout out again to all the VR360 makers that you're not alone. I mean, a lot of people are really concentrating on making 6DoF experiences, but VR360 exists for its own reason. And it's still a really, really excellent way of conveying the idea of a creator's thoughts. So that's it. Go VR360. Yeah.
[00:55:32.293] Kent Bye: Awesome. Well, Wenyi and CBOX, thanks so much for joining me to share a little bit more about your journey in creating libophobia and, you know, a little bit of the umatopia. And I'm excited to kind of air these interviews back to back to get a sense of the evolution between the two. Yeah, I just feel like that the way that you're using these abstractions and constructing and deconstructing these shapes and forms and yeah it just has this whole like process relational expression that i think has these flows and creates these moods and shifts and vibes and emotion that i think is really kind of in this more poetic genre and intent for the medium where i think it actually is really quite strong especially when it comes to like this sort of dream logic that vr as a medium can do it feels like you're Taking me through a dream. It might be a nightmare. It kind of has this sense of unease and terror But just really gave me the sense of awe and wonder and yeah Just really quite beautiful as a piece and yeah very much enjoyed watching it and both of its forms above the VR and the dome and Yeah, thanks again for taking the time to help break it all down. So thank you.
[00:56:35.693] Wen Yee Hsieh: Thank you.
[00:56:36.253] Kent Bye: Thank you so much Thank you so much. Goodbye Thanks again for listening to the Voices of VR podcast, and I really would encourage you to consider supporting the work that I'm doing here at the Voices of VR. It's been over a decade now, and I've published over 1,500 interviews, and all of them are freely available on the VoicesofVR.com website with transcripts available. This is just a huge repository of oral history, and I'd love to continue to expand out and to continue to cover what's happening in the industry, but I've also got over a thousand interviews in my backlog as well. So lots of stuff to dig into in terms of the historical development of the medium of virtual and augmented reality and these different structures and forms of immersive storytelling. So please do consider becoming a member at patreon.com slash voices of VR. Thanks for listening.
