1238: “The Fury” Combines Two-Channel Video Installation with 360 Video to Explore Memories of Sexual Assault

The Fury is a two-channel video installation in combination with a 360 video that “explores sexual exploitation of female political prisoners, referencing the Islamic Republic of Iran’s brutal treatment of political prisoners.” Director Shirin Neshat is an established visual artist, photographer, video artist, and filmmaker who collaborated with Khora CTO and co-founder Peter Fisher who led the 360 video production. The two-channel video installation is told in three different parts, and the VR puts you in the middle part of the story.

I had a chance to catch up with Neshat and Fisher at Tribeca Immersive to unpack their process of producing the piece, how a two-channel video installation invites a view to choose how to edit the piece, how Neshat prefers that audiences will see the film to get the full context of the piece, and the preferred order to watch it. Tribeca was showing the VR portion before the video installation, and I found it to be a really powerful piece and combination of being immersed within the VR portion, and then being able to reference my own embodied memories in watching the full context of the two-channel video installation.

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Music: Fatality

Rough Transcript

[00:00:05.412] Kent Bye: The Voices of VR Podcast. Hello, my name is Kent Bye, and welcome to the Voices of VR podcast. It's a podcast that looks at the potentials of immersive storytelling and the future of spatial computing. You can support the podcast at patreon.com slash Voices of VR. So I'm going to be starting a 15 part series of looking at my coverage from Tribeca Immersive and the Tribeca Games. At the beginning of June, I had a chance to go out to New York City and see all the different immersive experiences, talk to all the different immersive creators, and check out the Tribeca Games selection as well, and have a couple of interviews covering that. So I'm going to be diving deep into each of the different projects that were there at Tribeca Immersive. There were only 13 projects here, which is a little bit smaller selection, which was a lot more manageable to see everything and be able to talk to all the creators that were there. So I'm going to be starting off this series with a piece called The Fury, which is a two-channel video installation in combination with a virtual reality experience. So you can look at the two-channel installation that happens in three different parts, and the VR experience puts you in the middle part of the experience. So in order to get the full context, you have to see both the different experiences. So I had a chance to talk to the creators at Tribeca to be able to both unpack some of the different content and process of telling the story across these different media, as well as their process in creating it. So that's what we're covering on today's episode of the Voices of VR podcast. So this interview with Shireen and Peter happened on Thursday, June 8th, 2023 at Tribeca Immersive in New York City, New York. So with that, let's go ahead and dive right in.

[00:01:38.137] Shirin Neshat: My name is Shireen Neshat. I'm a visual artist, photographer, video artist, and a filmmaker. And this is my first experience in making a VR with the Fury.

[00:01:49.672] Peter Fisher: My name is Peter Fisher. I'm the CTO and co-founder of Quora. We're working only with XR as mediums. We have a strong focus on working with contemporary artists, but also work in the commercial space as well with XR.

[00:02:01.584] Kent Bye: Maybe you could each give a bit more context for your background and your journey into working with immersive media.

[00:02:08.288] Shirin Neshat: Well, as a video artist, I've been involved in creating double channel projections of videos that are required that the audience are really physically participant in the narrative, which I think is very different than a short film. And so I've been very interested in how to create video pieces that really involves the audience in a very environmental way. And so when Peter approached me in terms of working together, And in this particular piece that is so much about the brutality of the sexual assault and a woman surrounded by military or uniformed officers, I thought it would be really interesting to then go even closer to this experience for the audience to see what it's like to be her, you know, literally to be a subject of assault. For a long time I've been really questioning about the making of video for a gallery and museum audience as opposed to movies. And again, this idea of physicality of the piece. So this is really going much beyond my normal horizon.

[00:03:16.550] Peter Fisher: Yeah, so my background is in computer graphics and animation and minored in art, so for me it's an honor to work closely with Shireen on an important subject matter. I think for our side, we pride ourselves in working together with contemporary artists, coming with the right respect, appreciation, understanding of their practice, but also bringing in our knowledge of what the XR mediums can do, here specifically virtual reality and 360 film, how you can tap into the medium in the best way, you know, best practices for the medium, but making sure that the subject matter, the story, we're just helping amplify it with the technology, and that it has a true sense of purpose in this medium. I think with this work, you should be able to see that, where this is a deep dive into one of the scenes, really curated for 360 as well, and then you can see the two-channel film that tells the full story in a different medium. So you, as a viewer, can feel like you've been inside of that as you watch the full story unfold.

[00:04:12.542] Kent Bye: Yeah, so the piece is called Fury. It's debuting here at Tribeca 2023. So maybe you could give a bit more context for how this project came about.

[00:04:21.287] Shirin Neshat: Yeah, essentially, the theme of this video is a reference to the sexual assault and rape of women in prisons in Iran by the authority, the Islamic Republic of Iran. And since they've been in power, and even more recently, women, life, freedom, revolution, where you saw many of male and female protesters were sexually assaulted and raped, and how perpetually you see some of these individuals, even when they're released, they never ever recover from such trauma. Either they go mad or commit suicide. So for me, this is, of course, a highly stylized and almost surrealistic narrative about a woman who's free in America, but is never really recovered. And in fact, her victimization and her experience of being assaulted shrinks off other people's rage and a protest, which is exactly what happened in Iran with Mahsa Amini, Women, Life, Freedom, where Mahsa Amini was murdered and later that unleashed a protest. And this was actually created before this revolution, but it is such a issue we have in Iranian society, but in many ways I think it's also quite universal about the trauma of women in political prison and how often they're sexually assaulted.

[00:05:43.592] Kent Bye: So Peter, I'd love to hear from your side, you have the end result is a two-channel installation as well as a 360 video that puts you immersed into one of the scenes. How did you go about producing this piece and if you were shooting them at the same time or if the two-channel installation was already produced and you came back and did it later? So yeah, I'd love to hear that process of how you were trying to figure out how was the immersive medium of the 360 video going to play a part in helping to tell the story.

[00:06:09.249] Peter Fisher: Yeah, so our role was just producing the VR part of it. So we were in dialogue a good time before the shoot for the two-channel film was already planned for last June. And then we just had a lot of conversations around the medium itself, exploring it together, talking a lot about it. How can we take advantage of the immersion of virtual reality? And then over those course of dialogues, you suggested that the prison scene would be likely the most immersive. So practically speaking, it was all lined up together and planned quite simultaneously. I think you had three days of filming the two-channel film and then one day to film the 360, because the two-channel film is three locations. 360 is just one of those locations. So I think it worked out really smoothly from my perspective because we were able to come in after the two-channel film was filmed and you got to work closely with the talent, get very comfortable with them and then really curate this one scene for VR and think about the camera as a different medium and also just work with the whole cast and crew specifically for VR. So in a lot of ways it was a very similar shoot, we just had to hide everybody, think about how we're masking people out and also how we're orienting people towards the camera to make sure that the viewer has this sense of presence and is being stared at and addressed in a very intense way as well throughout the film.

[00:07:35.258] Kent Bye: Yeah, and the actual mechanism of telling story is in this surrealistic vein, almost like this dream logic where you're using dance and embodiment and movement in a lot of ways symbolically communicate the gist of the story without having explicitly all the different interim steps in between, but you get a sense of a little bit of a transition point when one of the soldiers blows smoke into the woman's face. And that is a turning point in some ways that you see that this is a metaphor for assault that's happening. But in the 360 video, you see the woman dancing around. And then at some point, you see her recovering from the assault. And then she escapes. And then you have the two-channel installation that, in some ways, shows the aftermath of her interacting with people in the street almost like this. grieving ritual or a ritual or protest that is happening afterwards. So I'd love to hear about all the different ways that you were trying to use both the affordances of the film but also of VR to try to symbolically communicate the gist of the story.

[00:08:39.743] Shirin Neshat: Yeah, so the whole idea was, through the video, emphasize the female body both as an object of desire and violence. And so at the beginning, in the two-channel video, you don't quite comprehend the trauma. You only see her as a woman who's dancing, very erotic, very beautiful. And then slowly we understand that she's not quite normal, as even she passes on the streets. And so she's inside of her own world, in a way. And from there on we understand that a lot is the figment of her imagination and she's not really able to connect with the world as we understand it. And that's something that was really important to me, the state of mind, madness, insanity that is often the consequence of sexual assault, that you keep everything inside. And now the question was, how do we bring the audience to this proximity of the emotional, psychological state of this woman's mental state? And which is why I responded to Peter's offer, because I thought, you know, let the audience not just be the editor of this double channel projection, understanding what is going on in her mind, but let's see if we can physically place them where she is, you see. And then, consequently, I mean, I really wish we had done the protest in VR because that would have been amazing to see the response of people, just the average citizens on the street responding to her literally by seeing her condition, but how that unleashed their own frustration about the issue of power, control, injustice, and that all culminating in a protest like a dance. So for me, the dance was also really important because in Iran, dance is forbidden. Dance is the symbol of protest. It's a desire for freedom. And it's just something that, as you have seen the last few months, a lot of women are dancing on the street and they're getting arrested. So for me, that was also a little intentional about all kinds of taboos that comes with the female body because it provokes other men And then they become a subject of violence, you see. So there was a lot of thought that really ultimately related to Iran, but not entirely, because these, to me, are really human issues. And the female body is problematic no matter where you come from, and political injustice, and sexual assault, and protests. And so it was really an intention to create an experience that is really immersive and complex. I'm not sure if it comes through, but that was my intention.

[00:11:14.852] Kent Bye: Yeah, I watched the 360 video first, and then I saw the two-channel installation. And having the two-channel installation gave me the sense that I had multiple perspectives of the same scene that was unfolding. But when I'm in VR, I just see a single perspective, and I feel completely immersed in the scene. So it was interesting to see how the same scene played out in the multi-channel installation, because there's a repetition of that same scene plays out. But in VR, I'm immersed. There's a switching between first-person and third-person perspective that Peter I'd love to have you comment on because there's a way that you see the woman dancing and that you obviously know that that's not you as a character but then in some ways you get to embody the perspective of that character as all the different military officers in the prison. They begin on the periphery, on the outskirts of this big, giant warehouse room, and at the end, they're all really close to you, so there's this contrast between the male gaze of all these Iranian soldiers and prison guards, and at the end, you feel completely surrounded, and it feels super claustrophobic, and I feel like it's a really strong use of the medium of VR, but I'd love to hear your perspective of switching between the third person, the first person, and the VR portion.

[00:12:23.978] Peter Fisher: Yeah, so I think we're always trying to treat the user with care, make sure that we don't induce any motion sickness and we also want to live up to the subject matter and treat it with the care that it deserves as well. The two-channel film, you can do all the tricks that you're so good at with traditional film. You know, having close-up shots, wide shots, multiple cameras. You can really pace things and move things along in a certain way. And like you say, have the user as the editor in between these two worlds choosing what to look at. I think with VR we wanted to have that similar dynamic without inducing nausea or motion sickness. So no moving camera, that's kind of a rule of thumb, unless there's something very, very deliberate that has to be done in a careful way. And the way we just, it was a dialogue, you know, we talked about it the day before. We made a little game plan and even made some decisions on set. You were so close with our camera operator deciding some of these decisions in the moment. But we wanted to give exactly how you said it, play with third person and first person in these crucial moments. You don't have like a camera strapped to the dancer or a moving camera, but we're carefully choosing when to pop in and out of that perspective. Because as you mentioned, it is a very intense feeling in the end to be surrounded and to realize that you're feeling maybe some of the feelings that the dancer is feeling. But again, you do want to see it through her from a third person to see how her body is telling the story, how her movements are pulling the viewer in as well and alluding to the subject matter. So yeah, I think it was a privilege to work so closely with Shireen, but yeah, a lot of decisions made around the medium itself, but I think especially with the story, it felt very natural how we decided to come up with these camera placements.

[00:14:15.057] Shirin Neshat: Yeah, I just want to add, I think, the experience from being a passive audience to an active audience. You know, I mean, I think this has been always my interest in when you're watching a movie in a theater as opposed to a gallery, a museum, or in a virtual reality, is that you have an opportunity to bring the audience closest possible to the story, where they just cannot be, you know, neutral. That they really need, it heightens the emotion psychological reaction to the work. And so I really have to say there's a lot of potential in, I'm not a big fan of technology or futuristic, but I think what Peter and I talked about is how could we heighten the brutality that is involved with this narrative. and how can we make the audience to really feel as much as possible what it's like to be her, you know, surrounded by this male gaze, men in uniform. And it has to be more chilling than, let's say, if you're just sitting in a movie theater watching a movie that shows you in a very, it's just, I think it's a very different experience for the audience and I really welcome that.

[00:15:28.536] Kent Bye: I feel like having seen the 360 video and then the two-channel installation, first I want to ask, is that the intended order or do you expect that people would see the full context and then have the embodied experience? I'd love to hear, as an artist intent, what would you prefer people

[00:15:44.590] Shirin Neshat: Actually, I should be asking you that. This is the first time that we are showing this two-piece together. Now my judgment is that you should first see the two channels to have a full context of the narrative and then see the VR. But I'm very eager for you, who's experienced it for the first time, what is your feeling about what is the order that should be?

[00:16:07.445] Kent Bye: Well, I happened to see the VR first, and then the two-channel installation. And I feel like I was able to get enough of a context of just from being in VR that I get a sense that I'm taking my own embodied experiences into the two-channel installation. And I felt like the two-channel installation was more powerful. But this isn't a possible question, because you can only do it once. I'd have to wipe my brain and see it the other way, and then come back in a parallel universe and compare notes. But for me, I felt like there's something about being immersed into the immersive experience without having the full context, and then it gives me more of a motivation to understand. In some ways, the VR is throwing you in the middle of this piece. and then the two-channel installation is giving you the beginning, then the middle, then the end, where you have the follow-on. So, I mean, it's really an impossible question for anyone to answer, but for me, I really appreciated having that embodied experience that really allowed me to project myself into the two-channel installation in the middle in a way that I don't think I would have been able to had I not been immersed into the VR.

[00:17:07.807] Shirin Neshat: I think it's important to point out that this is only one scene of a full narrative, and therefore that scene does not have a conclusion. It means that the entire time you consider this woman as a victim, where in the actual narrative, the full narrative, actually you see what follows her victimization, which is actually quite hopeful. So here it's quite dark and also it may be a little perplexing for some people to say, is she just trying to depict the victimization of such people? But in video you actually see that actually what follows is very powerful. So that's why I think it's important that you oversee the VR in the context of the full, whatever long the video is, so people have the actual context of the narrative and the intention of the artist.

[00:17:57.844] Kent Bye: Yeah, Peter, I don't know if you have any other opinions on that.

[00:18:00.126] Peter Fisher: I mean, you're on the VR side, so... Yeah, I mean, I agree it's an impossible question. Ultimately, it's what Shireen intends and what you'd like the viewers to experience. But I do think I agree with you that, again, I can't... I'm super biased because I was there last June filming this and been heavily involved in the process, so I have no idea what it's actually like as a user to just walk in reading the text and go into this. But yeah, I would... I wonder if seeing the two-channel film may spoil the feeling of immersion in VR, because you see everything line up, but then when you see it afterwards, just my feeling of looking at it the past few days, seeing the two-channel film afterwards, you remember it like I was there, you know, I was in her shoes and I saw him blow that smoke and you're seeing a very similar story, but you just remember it maybe as like a memory from yourself. So, again, something to explore, everything is being pioneered and undefined, but I think in the context of Tribeca and the immersive, I'm excited to hear what people's reactions are, because ultimately I can't really answer it either. First day!

[00:19:10.137] Kent Bye: Yeah, exactly. Well, I will say that having seen this single scene, this vignette, in some ways of the immersive experience, and then seeing the two-channel installation, I was deeply, deeply moved by the two-channel installation when it got to that point where the third act, in some ways, where you're getting into this resolution and It reminded me of, there's this book called The Smell of Rain on Dust where you talk about these indigenous practices of grief where a lot of times you want to just grieve privately, but in some indigenous cultures there's this practice of when someone goes through trauma or loses someone that they love, they would run down the street wailing in grief and the community would come out and bear witness to that grief and be grateful because it's that expression of grief that allows people to be connected to their own grief and their own trauma and I feel like this piece is really capturing that spirit of this communal expression, but also the community coming together to bear witness to that grief and to participate in a ritual of catharsis and just trying to witness, but also protest. So I'd love to hear the process of creating this protest dance at the end, because I felt like it was deeply moving to see this communal ritual of grief that we don't have yet. But from an artist's perspective, suggesting that this may be a possibility towards healing and I'd love to hear your process of creating this.

[00:20:42.470] Shirin Neshat: You see, I'm Iranian-born, but I've lived in New York for, I don't know, 30 years or something. And I'm an immigrant, and I live in Bushwick, where the video was shot, where it's full of other immigrants from Hispanic, Asians, to Africans. And I study African dance. And so I brought a friend who is my teacher, is a choreographer, and some of the students. And what I loved and what I think it comes from my experience as an Iranian immigrant living in Bushwick, among other Spanish-speaking people, is that we all come from different worlds, different languages, different ethnicities, different religions, but we are creating one community and we are really bonded in some ways I feel like I feel more connected to them than I would with Iranian community. When I'm sitting in the subway, I feel safe because I'm surrounded by multiple faces, white, black, Asian, Hispanic. And so I know if something happens to me, they will look after me. If it happens in the street, in the subway. And there is so much compassion and love. And we don't know, like we listen to different music, we have different grief. We have different economic situation, different struggles, but yet we create one community. And those people who were dancing and those people who were part of this video was two blocks away from my house. These are my immediate community from my teacher, the students who danced in the same, people who I casted, the people who cooked. And I just felt that it was extremely personal on my part as an Iranian. making a work about trauma that relates to my own country, and yet bringing it to, you know, Bushwick, Brooklyn. And so the dance is very African, you know, and actually the movement, not when she's alone. It's very Iranian or Arabic, and even the music is by a Tunisian singer. But once she's outside is the reality of America. When she's inside of her apartment is Iranian reality and her world of the past. But when we're outside, we're in the present time. And the community that shows solidarity and identifies with her grief are people from all mix of ethnicities. And that's what America is about. And I think that speaks to my experience.

[00:23:09.292] Kent Bye: Yeah, and just watching the VR versus the multi-channel perspective, I get this sense that having multiple perspectives on a single scene and VR, that there's ways that the VR can have a singular perspective but encompass the full context, but there's something about the directorial control of the filmmaking medium that has this different range of the wide shot, the medium shot, and the close-up that I feel like is an interesting mix. Something about the two-channel installation of using all those film techniques is able to really robustly tell the story. I'm not sure if you'd be able to still to the same degree robustly tell the story if it was fully in VR, but I'd love for Peter to hear some of your reflections on some of that because I feel like there's in some ways more of a limited grammar for communicating a lot of the nuances of the story.

[00:23:54.537] Peter Fisher: Yeah, yeah, I think personally I think this really really works and it is the intention We're showing this at the FIVE Center in a few weeks through August in the same format to channel and VR I think it's something we want to continue to do we're showing in Denmark in the fall in the same context We just had a conversation about yeah, that final scene would have been amazing to shoot in VR as well So it's a little unknown I think It could have still been a very immersive story and a lot of the similar feelings could come across in a different way because you're immersed in it, you're switching between that third person and first person. But I think for this concept, your artistic idea, I really feel like this works well and it's showing something in a unique way here at Tribeca as well and within the XR space, that it's a video artist who's very well-known and very well-established working with video, and we're not replacing that. We're just amplifying it in a way where we can... Like we always say, we don't want to use VR if there's no purpose to it. We don't want things to be gimmicky. We really want the viewers to feel like, this is why I'm putting the goggles on and embodying this, is because it's adding something. And here, I think, is a way we can show that it's very much complementary to the two-channel film. So it will be fun to explore that, but I think in this work of art, I wouldn't want to do it any differently. This is how we want to present it and stand behind it, that it's complementary.

[00:25:20.628] Kent Bye: Awesome. And finally, what do you each think is the ultimate potential of immersive media and things like multi-channel installations? What the ultimate potential of these media are and what they might be able to enable?

[00:25:34.073] Shirin Neshat: Honestly, I think that every idea that breaks a video into many channels or that it's a virtual reality, it all has to tie to the concept of the narrative. It cannot be just as an effect, which I think is commonly done and is problematic. So for me, unless it's inherent in the concept and it heightens the meaning of what the story is, it's just a gimmick, you know. And I think it's all about what the artist is intending for the experience of the audience, and not just because it's something new or something that is different. And I see many multi-channel projections, video installations in the art world, but I'm always very specific about when I do it, when there's this need of opposites, when there's a need for the audience to be editing it. So I go back and forth between single channel to double. But I think there always has to be a purpose, like you said.

[00:26:34.148] Peter Fisher: Totally agree. I think technology is nothing without purpose, without artists telling stories and ideas. And yeah, I think that's exactly why we're motivated to this, be working with these immersive mediums, is that we're working with behavioral change, we're telling impactful stories, we're changing people's minds, shaking up their world beliefs. I think that's why this technology is useful and important to contexts like this.

[00:26:57.703] Kent Bye: Great. Is there anything else that's left unsaid that you'd like to say to the broader Immersive community?

[00:27:02.187] Shirin Neshat: Thank you so much for your time. I'm really looking forward to working again with Peter, to finding another way of collaborating. So for me, this was a very exciting experiment.

[00:27:14.019] Peter Fisher: I can only echo that. Thank you so much. It's been an honor to collaborate with Shireen and your whole studio. Great to be here at Tribeca for the world premiere. Honored to be here. And thanks, Kent, for the interview.

[00:27:23.227] Kent Bye: Yeah, super powerful piece and thanks for taking the time to create it and break it down a little bit here at Tribeca. So, thank you.

[00:27:30.436] Shirin Neshat: Thank you for your time and for watching everything so carefully.

[00:27:35.158] Kent Bye: So that was Shireen Nishat. She's a visual artist, photographer, video artist, and filmmaker, and this is her first VR experience with The Fury. And Peter Fisher, who's the CTO and co-founder of Cora VR, who's been working with contemporary artists, but is also working in the commercial VR space as well. So I have a number of different takeaways about this interview is that, first of all, Well first the piece is just really quite powerful to tell the story in this two-channel video installation where you're watching the full arc of the story using the techniques of film and so there's close-ups in the medium range and the long shots and the juxtapositions of watching both the video streams at the same time. You're able to look back and forth and get a broader spatial context as you go through these different scenes And I actually really appreciated being able to watch the VR experience first. It left for more things to be discovered about the full context of the story, and I felt like as I was watching the full arc of the first, second, and third part, by being thrown into the middle of the experience, I'm able to have my own embodied experiences of the piece. Also, just it's an interesting piece to be able to compare and contrast of telling the story across different media You don't get to see the full arc of the story being told within virtual reality, which I think it should be possible But at the same time there's more robust language of the grammar of filmmaking where you're able to dive into a little bit more nuanced details on certain things and to create the contrast between the inner world of this Iranian woman who's now living in the United States, having these different memories of these encounters, and then the second part is the metaphoric representation of this assault with this big warehouse space with a bunch of men standing in a circle with this woman who's dancing, and then you see a man blow smoke in her face, and that sort of represents assault. You know, now she's all battered and she kind of runs out. of the place. And then the third part is where you get to see the resolution of the whole piece, where you have people who are on a street and they start dancing. And that's a real moment of catharsis as they're doing these African dances. So yeah, I thought overall it was a really quite powerful piece. And I think by watching the VR piece first, I was able to, in some ways, project myself into the second part of watching the film. and just to see the different ranges of the close-up medium range and the long shots that are used in the film but also in the context of VR you have the first person perspective and the third person perspective which is a rough analog of a close-up versus a long shot but it's more along the lines of doing a perspective shift of you're embodying this main character and you're able to see from her perspective and then from the third person perspective you're able to as a Witness or a ghost be able to observe the main character that you are playing in this story. It's a video format So there's no choices or action that you're making that's changing anything in terms of the story But you do have a chance to get this embodied experience of what it feels like to be surrounded by all these men who are looking at you and then they bring all of that circle of men to be super close to you and so you feel this contrast between them being far away and being super close, and it's just super uncomfortable when they are doing that within VR. But it creates this effect of being trapped or being surrounded. So I appreciated having those different immersive experiences before I saw the full black and white two-channel video installation to be able to go through the whole arc of the story. And right now, throughout the course of August, it's still playing at the Phi Center, if you happen to be living in Montreal, to be able to check it out. And it's going to be showing around as well. And yeah, Core VR, I've had a chance to talk to Peter Fisher before. They're a really interesting development shop because they do a lot of enterprise commercial work, but then they work with contemporary artists to bring these different types of immersive experiences to film festivals like Tribeca. So yeah, they're a shop to look into to see how they're able to push the limits of the grammar of storytelling and the affordances of immersive media, and then to translate that back into their enterprise and commercial work. So that's all that I have for today, and I just wanted to thank you for listening to the Voices of VR podcast. And if you enjoy the podcast, then please do spread the word, tell your friends, and consider becoming a member of the Patreon. This is a list of supported podcasts, and so I do rely upon donations from people like yourself in order to continue to bring you this coverage. So you can become a member and donate today at patreon.com slash voices of VR. Thanks for listening.

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