Immersive theater is on a collision course with virtual reality. There are so many best practices for interactive storytelling that are easily translatable into VR. Immersive Theater troupe Third Rail Projects produced the acclaimed Then She Fell, which only serves 15 audience members per show allowing for deeply intimate and personal engagement with audience members. They’ve been developing best practices for embodied communication and non-verbally engaging audience members, and starting to bring these insights into virtual reality experiences like Wolves in the Walls by Fable Studios and Oculus Studios.
I talked with immersive theater actor Alberto Denis from Third Rail Projects at the inaugural Immersive Design Summit in 2018 where he share so many deep insights for how immersive theater insights are directly informing immersive storytelling with VR & AR.
Denis has performed in over 900 shows, and in every single show he saw something he’s never seen before, and so we also talk about the limits of AI and computational non-player characters, and why the embodied intuition of an immersive theater actor is going to be hard to replicate with technology alone.
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Music: Fatality
Rough Transcript
[00:00:05.412] Kent Bye: The Voices of VR Podcast. Hello, my name is Kent Bye and welcome to the Voices of VR podcast. So immersive theater and virtual reality are on this collision path where there's so many different lessons of what spatial stories are going to look like that are coming from immersive theater. So many different innovations that are happening with the types of both audience engagement and interaction, as well as just narrative structures that are happening within that space. but also the ways that immersive theater actors are interacting with the audience members are starting to be actually fed into experiences that are in virtual reality, such as the experience called Wolves on the Walls. And so in this interview, I had a chance to talk to one of the immersive theater actors named Alberto Dennis, and he's done over 900 performances within immersive theater of Then She Fell. Then She Fell is so many different one-on-one interactions that are happening. And I guess the constraint within the experience is that you go in and they tell you, well, you cannot go and roam around anywhere. It's not an open world exploration. Although you can roam around any room that has a door that's closed. And so they are basically guiding you into different places. And so there's about maybe 15 different people and maybe just as many different actors or just maybe slightly less. And so you have a lot of like one-on-one interactions, but also different group theatrical experiences that are happening. And a lot of it's done through the modality of interpretive dance, but there's quite a lot of engagement that is happening between these immersive theater actors and the participants within that experience. And so when you're thinking about the future of interactive and immersive storytelling, then someone like Alberto Dennis has a lot of really deep insights about what it means to really be present within the moment to be able to react what's happening to the audience members and how to React like a human and not like a robot and what does that actually mean? So we're covering all that and more on today's episode of the voices of VR podcast So this interview with Alberto happened on Saturday, June 6 2018 at the immersive design summit in San Francisco, California so with that let's go ahead and dive right in and
[00:02:20.012] Alberto Dennis: My name is Alberto Dennis, and my primary experience with Immersive Experiences is working with Third Rail Projects for the past six years. I'm very grateful to have been one of the original cast and collaborators, and helped in the creation of Then She Fell, which is still happening to this day in New York, thankfully. Helped create the role of Lewis Carroll. And then I've been in many of Third Rail's other projects over the past six years, including most recently Ghost Light, which performed at Lincoln Center this summer, and then last year we had The Grand Paradise, and then Just a couple of different things here and there that we've done.
[00:02:52.755] Kent Bye: Yeah, I had a chance to see Then She Fell back in April of 2017. And I originally saw Sleep No More back in 2011, back in October, so the first year that it was out. And so I guess there's a big structural difference between the open world exploration and, I guess, the more clockwork of having 15 people go through a space, but they're each kind of going different paths. And so, for Third Rail Projects, how do you describe the structure of the immersive theater experience that you had created as contrasted to something that may be a little bit more of an open world, like Sleep No More?
[00:03:30.053] Alberto Dennis: I guess what I could say is for all of our projects, there have been different structures. And we really, as a company, thankfully, thanks to the direction of Zach, Tom, and Janine, we really focus on the audience a lot. So things are organized around an audience's perspective or experience, which informs how a work gets created in terms of its structure. But really, that comes from them. They're the ones who decide which will serve the story best. But it varies. It varies a lot.
[00:03:59.264] Kent Bye: I guess one of the things that it feels like Then She Fell is really optimizing around is creating that intimate one-on-one interactions and moments and opportunities for like an actor to have a personal one-on-one scene with a character. With Signalmore, it's sort of like, oh, you may win the lottery and you may get a character who sort of takes you into a scene, but it seems like Then She Fell is really kind of focused on that much more intimate interactions within a small contained space.
[00:04:27.131] Alberto Dennis: Yeah, as a performer myself, I'm grateful that that is definitely something that's at the forefront of what we get to do as a performer. Both as a performer and also as an attendee, I've gotten to see work. What you're describing to me, I feel like when there's an element where you don't win the lottery, you know, you're human. It pulls me out of the experience, because I'm suddenly feeling non-included and unincluded, and I just feel like that doesn't serve toward the grander scheme or the goal of, like, really allowing an audience member to really settle in to work and really be fully immersed. It sort of, like, sort of pinches you and yanks you out, but fortunately with Third Rail, that tends to be a focus. We don't want that to be the experience of an audience member. I like that people leave oftentimes thinking that the whole work was for them, when in fact we just did a really good job at making sure that that's what they thought.
[00:05:17.102] Kent Bye: Yeah, and what was the experience like for you to be in some of these immersive theater productions where it's very focused on these one-on-one interactions? What were some of the most striking or memorable experiences of being an immersive theater actor where you are sort of engaging with the audience in that way?
[00:05:34.747] Alberto Dennis: That is a great question. I would think I'd have an answer right away because there's probably been hundreds of them. I think for me, if a performer and the environment has been created so that an audience member can feel vulnerable enough to be very genuine and honest with you as well, too, and they're moved by something, and it's not even spoken to you, it's just you viscerally see it. It's expressed and it's present with you. You're like, oh, we're having this moment together. We have non-verbally agreed to create this moment together and time after time to see so many audience members willing to do that because we've created a space for them to do that. I tell performers all the time, like, you're not going to get to do work like this anywhere else. This is not like any kind of other performance. It's so intimate with a total stranger in such an amazing way.
[00:06:22.290] Kent Bye: Yeah, I think that, you know, after I saw Then She Fell, it was a bit of, like, those scenes and moments where I was in a room with the actor, and we have this eye contact, and you can see the facial expression, all the body language. I immediately think of, like, okay, can this translate to VR? And I think that, like, in a lot of ways, the level of emotional authenticity and vulnerability that I experienced within Then She Fell is like a high bar and threshold that I feel like, given the technology of where things are at today, it's so difficult to replicate that facial expressions, the eye contact, the body language, you know. You can get some simulcrum of a connection and of intimacy, but it's nothing like that I had experienced and then she felt, you know, sitting in a small room, you know, having that human connection with another person that's right there. So, what's sort of your experience of that level of authenticity and emotional vulnerability that's cultivated.
[00:07:19.224] Alberto Dennis: Well, I wonder. I think it's important what you were just saying about what we have available today, given that we live in a world where we constantly are seeing technology make advances that are leaps and bounds at a rate and speed that is almost beyond our own comprehension of what we've created. We have all these tools that we've made, and we don't necessarily know how to even use them. But we're trying to use them and improve them. I don't know if you attended the session earlier today where it was really wonderful to hear Jelena was talking about our collaboration with Oculus regarding the Neil Gaiman work and it was really encouraging to see that coming from a technology perspective, Oculus recognized the necessity or the value in actually working with live performers humans who could interpret direction to actually create the closest thing to an authentic experience of that visceral experience. I don't know that it necessarily can communicate that emotional content that I was referring to earlier that you could only have in an organic face-to-face one-on-one. However, I can't possibly begin to imagine what sort of technologies we're going to create that may in fact someday be able to replicate that. I don't know. I believe in a world of possibility. I'm pretty sure that could possibly happen someday. However, I still think the source of that information, that expression, I don't know that it can be generated by an artificial sense. I think it's still going to have a source. Even if it's translated or emitted or expressed through something that's virtual or electronic, I think much like Oculus saw fit to do, as long as the source is coming from something that can generate inauthentic, it would need that at the very least to even have a chance.
[00:08:59.616] Kent Bye: Yeah, I think that the performance capture technologies are there to be able to capture an authored experience of a performance in that way and replicate it in virtual reality. But it's like the dynamic interaction of being able to both, you know, look at somebody and respond in real time. And I think that's where it starts to get where I see this trajectory where immersive theater and virtual reality are kind of on this collision path. And that a lot of the immersive interactive stories that have been done within an immersive theater context are going to move into VR, but the VR technology is going to allow a lot more sophisticated dimensions of agency. control to kind of go off the rails and have the AI and artificial intelligence and natural language processing and potentially have ways to have much more sophisticated branching narratives that are beyond the ability to have some sort of like external drama manager that's, you know, driving and giving direction to actors in real time in an immersive theater scene. So I feel like the agency and interactivity is the dimension that is going to be proven out, but that there's so much of what happens in the performance of live one-on-one and that level of cultivation of intimacy that I think that it's going to be hard to match that live embodied experience in the technology at least for the next five to ten years.
[00:10:13.346] Alberto Dennis: What you just said in particular, it makes me think also about the power, the thing that I get to experience quite regularly when I'm performing and that I'm so appreciative of is a performer's ability to improvise in a given moment when an audience member makes different choices. I think that's, I don't know, like I wonder how would technology answer that? Would it have an answer for that? And would that also feel inauthentic to a person who's having that experience? Would they recognize computerized improvisation versus organic improvisation, which I think I don't know. I think people know the difference. And that is, I don't know how that would be replicated. But again, that's where I'm left with, perhaps someday it can be, but I don't know. I don't know. I think that without that human component, you can't fully trick a person into thinking that that's what's happening.
[00:11:00.258] Kent Bye: I think that there's a lot of things that humans do at an unconscious level that, you know, just the way that we're picking up on subtle body language cues and we react to each other in a way that's so refined that within the realm of artificial intelligence, we call it the uncanny valley because we know that there's something odd and eerie that's just not quite right. And we can't always put a finger on what exactly it is, but there's just a lot of things of, you know, those subtle moments of improv and interaction that, as they get computerized, just feel weird and creepy because there's something in our brain that recognizes that it's not quite human or it's fake or not real. We can tell within virtual reality who is a real embodied human, at least at this point. That may be changing in the next five or ten years. But I'm curious to hear more about those improv moments or those things that you would do day-to-day in the course of a performance, like what some of those actually look like and maybe some examples of that.
[00:11:55.740] Alberto Dennis: I don't know how specific I can be about examples. I don't want to share necessarily about... Because all the audiences are different. And there are absolutely specific incidents that have occurred where audiences will make a choice that's unanticipated based on what we've structured. Today they talked a lot about our misconception about control. It's funny because we're designing and creating these experiences for audiences who are coming in without needing to have anything with them other than their wits about them. the nice thing is everyone's got their own set of wits about them and they make all kinds of choices and no matter how frequent or how often a particular response happens, there's always something new, there's a variance. I've performed over 900 times in this one singular show and I don't think I've ever left the space not having at least one experience that night with an audience member who did something I just haven't seen before or heard before or I wondered about, or I was like, oh, that's interesting. And then there's simple things like just errors, technical errors. Like maybe I make a mistake, or I've slipped, or I've dropped an item, or a prop is broken, or something doesn't function or work. What am I going to choose to do? How do I remain present? How do I really make a decision based on my characters? perspective as opposed to just a logical choice or even my own personal choice. I really have to think about what's going to sustain this world for the audience member because as we were saying earlier, I feel like they can tell if I'm manufacturing some sort of artifice about how to respond to a moment. They happen frequently and I'm grateful for them. I think that they actually are happy accidents that keep the world alive. And audiences oftentimes leave a scene where I have perceived a mistake or an error or an aberration, but they certainly haven't. Which is wonderful because then that means they truly genuinely got an authentic singular moment that they have no way of knowing that wasn't quote-unquote supposed to happen.
[00:13:52.043] Kent Bye: Yeah, I think that some of the things you're talking about in terms of technology sort of gets to the level of we need artificial general intelligence, which is like a level of intelligence that can basically replicate a human and make it almost indistinguishable from a human. And I think that we're really, really far away from that. And so in the short term, we can probably use artificial agents to be able to maybe scale up these immersive experiences to have like maybe dialogue delivery or something that's exchanged. But in terms of the interaction and the dynamics of actually feeling like you're interacting with some sort of conscious being, I just I sense that. There's so much about the technology that the roadmap is just a really long goal and that it's really like the immersive theater experiences are really putting a goalpost. It's like this is kind of the highest extent of what we can do within an immersive experience. And that right now there's going to be a lot of higher level, like maybe less agency experiences in VR with AI, but that it's going to maybe create and cultivate this sense of people wanting to have that sort of Westworld experience or have the immersive theater experience where they can really have this more immersive part. To me, it was really interesting to see how Then She Fell was integrating taking a shot and actually tasting things, you know, so there's like a sense of like engaging the full sensory experience. And that because there's also like a rule that you can't open any door, it gives you a way to control the audience flow, but you also have like these opportunities to... Some of the actors were actually engaging in dialogue, and you sort of do a little live-action roleplay with them in that moment. And so I'm just curious to hear your experience of, like, if you were in those dialogue creation moments with people ever at all, or if you were in more of, like, sort of a nonverbal space with them the whole time.
[00:15:45.148] Alberto Dennis: Well, the character that I portray for the last several years has been Lewis Carroll, so I do interact with the audience members in a verbal way. Unfortunately, the scene, again going back to I can't anticipate everything or we can't anticipate everything, the scene is structured mostly so that the audience's response to, say, a question, which is a very direct stimulus, it's pretty ordered and doesn't leave too much room. That being said, I'd be lying if I said there haven't been experiences where there have been audiences who simply have either chosen to ignore the directions we've given them or have had just other choices made and they do want to engage in a conversation. And again, that's where I need to, as a performer, improvise in a way that stays as true to the scene as possible. I usually fight for trying to keep it where it is, but it's important to recognize I'm not going to ignore an audience. in their choice. Because that also would, then I might as well be a virtual being. You know, if I'm going to just ignore their choices, then I think that's similar to the way a participant in a VR experience can immediately tell something is fake. If, you know, if the other, whatever that is, is not responding to my choices, then clearly they're not real or there. Similarly, I think that happens with us as well.
[00:17:03.540] Kent Bye: Yeah, and I think that within a VR experience, you're always testing the plausibility. Is this real? And I think that also in an immersive experience, they can also do the stress test to see what can you throw out into the system to see what the response is. And as an actor, how do you respond to people who are either trying to deliberately disrupt you or ignore you?
[00:17:27.719] Alberto Dennis: Personally, all of the directors are quite good about stressing to us about honoring an audience member's choice, even if that's their choice. And this is my own take on that. I just do my best to Buddha my way through it, like to accept and go, okay. to listen. This audience member, for some reason, whatever their reasons are, I have no way of knowing, has decided that this is what they want to do with the time we have together. They want to just test the boundaries. That's fine. That's their prerogative. So long as we're safe. I mean, there are some, everyone has to take precautions. If nothing is unsafe, then typically I've gotten to a point where I'm just game. And I will just do my best to try and protect the scene on behalf of the audience member, if that makes sense. At least that's how I look at it. Again, I'm not speaking for Third Rail in that regard. That's me as a performer myself. But I think it's in alignment with what we try to make sure happens for the audience members. And often, too, if an adult has decided to be bratty or take in this course of action, If I'm being consistent and being honorable to their choice and just continuing with the work, I think most people, much like a child does, they give up on that tact. They surrender. You know, honestly, that's been my experience. They surrender to the scene. They see that the performer before them is committed to just doing the work for them on their behalf, and it's best not to be shaken. It's a good challenge. It's great for any performer, I think. It really challenges your own sense of self within a work, to be like, oh, this isn't about me. unlike traditional theater, where you own the stage, you're on the stage, the lighting's on you, everyone's focus is set on you, there are these unspoken rules and etiquette of what's going on here, you applaud when I do something, you stay quiet, but you're over there and I'm here. That's not available to us in this immersive setting. It's so intimate and so true and genuine, everything's seen. So if I react, I think it's about keeping my reactions in check and really being able to listen and be present.
[00:19:30.040] Kent Bye: After doing 900 performances, it seems like there has to have been some sort of ritualistic experience of going through the same process, but yet you're a human being, you're growing and evolving and changing over time. was there a sense of, like, you going in and having experiences that were, in some ways, maybe reflecting your own state of consciousness of where you were at in your life? And just curious to kind of hear, like, what that experience is like of going through the same process that is the same night to night in terms of the actual form, but sort of the details of it being different. And that experience of, like, how you maintain presence throughout that, but also, like, if you found that the things that were showing up each day were also kind of giving you information about what was happening in your life?
[00:20:20.710] Alberto Dennis: As a company, we've all had to face that together over the course of the years. There's only so much anticipation you can do, but no one anticipates doing 900 shows of something. We've come up with some really great techniques, and one of my favorite pieces of advice has come from the directors. I believe Zach, in particular, would impress upon this, but they've all shared this sentiment of comparison to yoga. Yoga practice. You are repeating forms and shapes constantly, but in yoga you understand no two warrior twos are the same. You are really committed in that moment. You're focused on your breath. You are trying to recreate what can't be recreated. The warrior two I did yesterday simply cannot exist today because that was yesterday. I will do my best. I'm just constantly in a constant cycle of attempting to do my best. and be present. And I think that that's the best example I've heard for me, recognizing that the practice we're doing is yogic in that way. And it's actually quite freeing. It makes it possible to occupy that space of presence so that when there are these unknowables and these surprises, you can be authentic and genuine in your response.
[00:21:30.405] Kent Bye: What were some of the questions that you had in terms of the work that you're doing and the problems that you're trying to solve that may have been discussed today at this Immersive Design Summit and throughout the course of the different conversations that were happening? If there's any questions that you're asking in terms of what's really driving your work forward?
[00:21:49.244] Alberto Dennis: Well, I feel like a lot of the conversations today Appropriately so, really organized around designers and creators and those who are trying to make this kind of work. And I'm coming at it while participating in a collaborative effort to create work, thanks to Third Rail's direction. That's wonderful, but as a performer, I've got a whole bunch of other questions as well from being inside the work. There wasn't, I don't know how many performers were present for today to actually provide those kinds of questions or that dialogue. So some of those questions for me were left in the back of my mind and not necessarily answered, but that was okay. I didn't really come today to necessarily discuss or talk about that. I mean, I have them. I wonder about what is it like to break your own rules? What is it like to abandon? Like, what would it be to abandon your character? Is that a valid choice? Under certain circumstances, perhaps yes. Others, perhaps no. Does this work lend itself to that kind of behavior or not? Depends. We've done many works with different sets of outcomes and expectations and design and aesthetics. So I think it changes from moment to moment. Today I think the most exciting thing was having an opportunity to meet with other people who are passionate about this form of work. In particular, for me the biggest questions are about making work that is accessible to individuals who are from different races, different class, different genders. not just available, but that the stories being told, the experiences being shared and told, are also from those perspectives. That perhaps those creating these experiences, designing these experiences, directing them, are also from a diverse pool of individuals. I feel like there's a lot of room left to make sure that that gets to happen. And I think that An event like today's event allowed for some of that to happen, at least on a micro level. I had some really great small exchanges with individuals about that kind of topic. That's what really matched me. I've come from a very social justice background that I really would love to see made more available in an immersive environment.
[00:23:44.248] Kent Bye: So what type of immersive experiences do you want to have?
[00:23:49.590] Alberto Dennis: Oh. You know, I'm very happy. I'm elated and content beyond reason with what we've made in Third Rail so far over the past five years that I've been there. All of the different subjects and eras are really fun to explore. I feel like at heart we're really, really trying to give people an experience that moves them. And fortunately today was A nice reminder that people couldn't stop referring to Third Rail and their works all throughout the day. And that felt nice as a member of the company to sit there and recognize that, oh wow, we've had an impact on a lot of people with the work that we're making. I'd like to keep that going very much. I feel like as a company we're still growing. I can't speak too much to how the company works because I'm not in charge of that. I have had the opportunity to see some other immersive works as well in the past couple of years, and I've really enjoyed a lot of the choices being made as well. This past year was really fun to go to K-Pop at Ars Nova. I think that was the Woodshed Collective. That was really interesting. It was nice to see an immersive experience that was done in a contemporary setting, in a very present-day setting, where I've only really participated in things that exist in other eras and other times. That was kind of nice and fun. It had a different kind of relevance since it took place in a present setting. I'm also really curious about work and its integration with physical theater. I think earlier today, Colin from Punchdrunk, he touched upon it briefly when he was talking about the history of Punchdrunk and when they arrived at a moment when they recognized that they could minimize narrative selectively and instead rely more on a movement structure. I mean, I'm more of a dancer. My background, that's my history. And yet I've become a dancer who acts and an actor now who moves. And I feel like there are times where that, thankfully Third Rail employs quite often, where storytelling is done strictly through movement vocabulary and not a strict narrative. And what that affords, I want to keep exploring that. I feel like there aren't enough companies actually still doing that. I think a lot of the companies I came across or the experiences I came across today, A lot of folks are coming from more of a theatrical narrative perspective. Nothing wrong with that at all. I guess my curiosities lend themselves a little bit more to a mixture of both narrative and also movement, physical theater structures.
[00:26:03.043] Kent Bye: Great. And finally, what do you think is the ultimate potential of immersive experiences and what they might be able to enable?
[00:26:14.957] Alberto Dennis: My immediate answer to that from today would be I am really curious and excited by the possibility of immersive works literally bridging gaps between individuals in ways that they could not believe was possible until they had an immersive experience. Specifically, the concept that we can create worlds and experiences for individuals to become other than what they are, thus allowing them the possibility of seeing other than what they can and experiencing other than what they have. So, literally, groups of people that are from different... This might be Pollyanna-ish of me, I don't think it is, but it would be wonderful to have work where a person from a particular group, say, I don't know, right wing or left wings, you know, from a political perspective spectrum, literally being able to understand the other side from having an experience that's visceral on an organic level to then bridge that gap for individuals so that they can go beyond ideology and actually find some way to find something mutual. The same thing goes for those from different classes, those from different races, those from different nationalities that are in opposition to each other. Growing up. I don't know if you heard this. I remember being told you know, I put yourself in their shoes I'm like, wow, that's I'm now living a life of art that does that I'm putting myself and we're asking others to put themselves in shoes that aren't the ones that came in So how far can we push that how how far can we actually create an experience for an individual? they literally experience something that they in reality are unable to but we're able to create a quote, unquote, virtual experience, perhaps not in the VR world, but in an organic world through theater and these practices and immersive, that they can, in fact, have the capacity to feel and experience something that wasn't available to them before that. That is something that gets me really excited about for the future.
[00:28:09.108] Kent Bye: Awesome. Well, thank you so much for joining me today and having this conversation.
[00:28:12.991] Alberto Dennis: Thank you. I really appreciate that. Thanks.
[00:28:16.288] Kent Bye: So that was Alberto Dennis. He's a actor within Third Rail Projects, and he played Lewis Carroll within Then She Fell. So I have a number of different takeaways about this interview is that, first of all, well, it just really stuck with me that Alberto has done over 900 different performances within Third Rail Projects' Then She Fell, and that in pretty much every single experience that he had, there was something that he's never seen before. So if you try to think about how to program that or how to even train that, there's something about the intuition of a human being that is going to take a really long time before you're going to be able to create something that gives that level of responsiveness to the variety of different things that human beings can do. But also that there is a certain amount of really centering the experience within whatever the audience member wants to do and want to say. So there's actually a very similar movement that's happening within the mathematics education movement where it's trying to center what is happening within the student's experience rather than the teacher's. And so in order to see if a mathematics classroom is moving towards this active learning, then you're trying to see where the math is happening. Is it happening from the teacher or is it happening within the context of the student? Just the same within the immersive theater. Where is the story happening? Is the story just being dictated to you by the actors or is there a larger context and an experience that's being created so that the story can actually emerge from the audience member and I think that is one of the the huge differentiating factors for what the key magic of immersive theater is is that it's just trying to create a context of an experience and that The actors are really there to be responsive to whatever the audience member wants to do, but that they're trying to maintain a certain level of presence to be present with what is emerging, but also almost try to protect the story in some ways, in spite of what the audience member may want to do or say. And so there's only a limited amount of agency that you can do. There's some certain guidelines and rules in terms of when you're invited to participate or to speak. And even when those happen, it's still very constrained. But given that, there's still like that urge and the desire for people to really engage and participate at different levels. And as an actor, that Alberto has to respond to that and to really be in this improv space of yes and, and being able to take what is happening and what is emerging, but then slowly guide and shift it back to what the larger purpose of the narrative is trying to achieve. And that, you know, pretty much in every 900 different times that he did this performance, that there was something new that had happened that he had never done before. I just find that absolutely amazing. And so, it seems like that Oculus and other people within the virtual reality community, the creators of Wolves on the Walls, actually worked with actors from Third Rail Projects, and I had a chance to do some interviews with some of the creators, and I'll be airing that interview next. In this interview, Alberta gives a bit of a tip that they've been collaborating and working within the domain of virtual reality. And so I do see that there's going to be some of the best practices that are going to continue to distill down to their component parts and figure out how to do this level of spatial communication and these things about body language that they've been able to really cultivate and almost get down to a science where they're able to use their body to be able to communicate and to get audience members to do very specific actions. We'll hear a little bit more of how they actually were able to do that within Wolves in the Walls. So that's all that I have for today. And I just wanted to thank you for listening to the Voices of VR podcast. And if you enjoy the podcast, then please do spread the word, tell your friends, and consider becoming a member of the Patreon. This is a list of supported podcasts. And so I do rely upon your donations in order to continue to bring you this coverage. So you can become a member and donate today at patreon.com slash voices of VR. Thanks for listening.
