#672: “TribeXR DJ School” Virtual Apprenticeships & Immersive Education

tom-impallomeniEach of the founders of TribeXR wanted to learn how to become a DJ, but they never got around to it. So they all went to DJ school, and they’ve been building virtual reality technologies to alleviate many of the pain points that slowed down their journeys of learning how to DJ. The number one blocker is not having easy access to the DJ hardware equipment that costs around $6000. They’ve created a virtual simulation of the hardware in VR with an audio processing backend, and now they’re collaborating with DJ tutors to create virtual apprenticeships and come with innovations in new models of immersive education. Their goal is to help aspiring DJs go from knowing nothing to being able to perform in a night club by being able to learn and practice a virtual DJ booth from professional tutors.

I had a chance to talk with Tom Impallomeni, co-founder and CEO of Tribe, at VRLA where I received a tutorial in VR for how to switch bass on a virtual DJ equipment. TribeXR has found a sweet spot of immersive education where it’s faster and easier to learn some tasks when there is an expert in the room guiding you on your learning journey. We talked about collaborating with hardware manufacturers, their Explain, Demonstrate, Mimic (“EDM”) model of immersive education, collaborating with professional DJ schools and tutors, experimenting with spatial metaphors that create visual synchrony to make learning a multi-modal experience, and the iterative process of collaborating with hardware manufacturers on hardware design and potentially designing intuitive spatial interfaces and capabilities within augmented reality.


Here are some clips of some lessons and DJ jam sessions from TribeXR:

This is a listener-supported podcast through the Voices of VR Patreon.

Music: Fatality

Rough Transcript

[00:00:05.452] Kent Bye: The Voices of VR Podcast. Hello, my name is Kent Bye, and welcome to The Voices of VR Podcast. On today's episode, I'm going to be exploring TribeXR, which is a DJ school that is in virtual reality. So they've created this system that is going to replicate different aspects of DJ hardware that costs around $6,000 or so. A lot of people don't have that money to be able to have access to the equipment. So it's a challenge for how to learn how to DJ if you don't have access to the equipment. So they've created this virtualized replication of the equipment on all the audio backend to be able to replicate what the functionality of the equipment does. But also, they've been creating these training opportunities, both from within VR, so that you have these lessons that you can step through, or you can get one-on-one lessons from a professional DJ who could essentially become an apprentice to a professional DJ. So TribeVR is doing a lot of things in terms of collaborating with the hardware manufacturers and talking to them about their user interface design and thinking about what is the future of augmented reality interfaces, as well as just looking at the fundamentals of immersive education and what some of those opportunities are. So we'll be covering all that and more on today's episode of the Voices of VR podcast. So this interview with Tom Apollomini happened on Saturday, May 5th, 2018 at VRLA in Los Angeles, California. So, with that, let's go ahead and dive right in.

[00:01:31.213] Tom Impallomeni: Hi, I'm Tom Impalemany. I'm the co-founder and CEO of Tribe, and Tribe is the immersive learning platform for real-world skills. So our first product is a product called the VR DJ School, where we teach people the basics of DJing and how to produce music, and you can learn live from real-life tutors in VR, no matter your location. So we're trying to democratize learning, and we've picked a really interesting first use case, I think.

[00:01:57.808] Kent Bye: Yeah, I think so. I mean, it's exciting because there's so many knobs and dials and levers with some of these DJ platforms. And my understanding is that you took some of the industry standard technology that people would be using on a DJ gig and you have a way to sort of basically virtually replicate that and then be able to implement some of the software on the back end to be able to then teach people how to do that. So maybe you could talk a bit about that process of like integrating the actual hardware component in order to actually do this.

[00:02:25.815] Tom Impallomeni: Of course. So the system that we showcase is actually the sort of industry standard club DJ setup. So if you go into any nightclub in the world, you'll probably see this setup. The setup that we've replicated would cost normally around $6,000. So it's something that most DJs, even pro DJs, often don't have at home. And so we've basically recreated all of that functionality in VR so you can train on that setup and you can actually perform on that setup using your own music without the need for the hardware. So there's various elements that we've had to build. So we're built in Unreal Engine. But Unreal Engine wasn't built with complex audio backends. So we've had to build and customize a custom audio middleware in order to enable all the features. But we now have pretty much a one-to-one replica deck that replicates all the different inputs and all the different sounds and effects that you can utilize as a DJ. One of the interesting challenges that we've had is how you replicate touch. when you don't have a physical piece of hardware. And so we do a lot of work working with the existing hand controllers and trying to sort of get the buttons and sliders to respond in a way that you would expect. And we have also looked at things like haptics and different input systems. The reason that we're not really focused on that at the moment is that most people at home don't have that type of setup at home. So we hope that that's where the market will move, but for now we think that we've replicated pretty accurately what you can do on a real physical deck using existing touch controllers or Vive controllers.

[00:04:02.188] Kent Bye: What is the process of replicating a piece of hardware like this? Do you have to get permission from the hardware manufacturer to be able to replicate the image and likeness of this machine and then do the software? Or is this a collaboration you're doing with them? Maybe you could talk a bit about that.

[00:04:15.584] Tom Impallomeni: So we do work closely with different hardware manufacturers. We kind of want to be hardware agnostic. but to showcase different types of setups. So the process of replicating this is we can replicate any setup one for one. Really where we focus is on the back end and how you integrate into the different controllers. So we've actually built it so you can switch in and out different controllers. There are certain conversations that we're currently having about actually showcasing sort of licensed controllers, but the setup that we've created replicates a generic club setup, so we're not currently affiliated with any brand. although that situation is likely to change soon as we start to showcase actual brand hardware. And what we're seeing a lot is that as soon as you start with a generic piece of hardware, you get people wanting to showcase specific bits of hardware to switch in and out different controllers and to give people choice. And the reason that I think hardware brands are so fascinated by this is because it enables a DJ to choose which mixer they want, which CDJs or which input systems they want. And you can also pair it with vinyl or with other add-ons and really customize your own setup. And so I think for a brand that's really important because you can showcase your own products in VR but you can also show how flexible those products are, demonstrate the features of those products, and actually really explain to the user the benefits of your product. So we see this ultimately as being, as well as being a learning platform for DJs and for other skills, as being a way to showcase products to customers.

[00:06:04.895] Kent Bye: Yeah, and what was really interesting is that this is the second time that I've done this demo. The first time was at the VR Mixer at GDC 2018 and that it was kind of a single-player demo where I went in and kind of played with the knobs and played with it a little bit. Maybe just more of experimental and may even have had a tutorial or something. But in this version, it was a one-on-one training where you were actually guiding me and you're like, okay, we're going to be able to do this bass replacement. and be able to walk through each of the steps. So there was a story, there was an intention, this is the process, and then as I sort of mess around and do things right or wrong, then you can correct it. But it was that process of that live, interactive training that I felt like I got a lot more out of this experience than I did the first time. Do you imagine creating a combination of, like, if people want to just go through a tutorial and just step through some sort of training versus having access to be able to walk through the basics? Or maybe they get up to the basics, but when they want to do a little bit more advanced stuff, maybe it's time for them to sort of pull in the tutor and help train them.

[00:07:06.017] Tom Impallomeni: Yeah, so there are three types of lessons that we currently offer. The first one is with a virtual mentor. And that's really a walkthrough where we've distilled the basics down to a step-by-step lesson. And you can do that one player where the virtual mentor instructs you. And we found that that's a really good way of explaining things. The downside in that structure at the moment is that you can't ask that mentor a question. So if you get stuck, or you're struggling with a specific thing or you don't fully understand it, you have to just rerun the lesson. You can't have a very quick interaction. So then we also introduced video lessons where anyone can create their own content and add a video. And we've made some learnings there as well in that long form videos, people don't really just want to sit in VR and watch a video for 10 minutes. So you have to sort of break those videos up into pieces and make them interactive for them to be compelling. But the most important part of what we did is that we wanted this experience to be social and for people to be able to teach each other and to get together in VR and sort of jam together. And in testing that live lesson structure, we made a sudden learning which was that people learn a lot faster when you have someone there who's showing you what to do and you can embody that person or you can replicate what they're doing. And then if you get stuck or if it's unclear, you can ask them a quick question. And so we found that the live lesson structure is the quickest way for people to learn. And so we started working with a few different professional mentors. So we actually have mentors that people can now book time with through our app. And for them, they then also found it was really interesting because mentors often sit at home and use systems like Skype and Zoom and different live video chat systems. to teach people around the world. But it requires that both people have hardware and then you have a suboptimal situation where you're filming and you're trying to position the camera so that the person can replicate and you have to stop and then start again. And in VR that problem goes away because you're actually in the same room and you're watching each other. So what we sort of realized in a roundabout security way is that VR is solving the problem of lessons that you would normally learn best being in a room with a teacher. And whereas you can do a lot of online learning using video these days, you can't replicate that using video. But you can do that in VR and eventually in AR and mixed reality. So that's where we're focused. And we envisage Tribe being the marketplace for these type of lessons. initially for DJing and then for different real-world skills that share that same characteristic where getting in a room together is the best way to learn and embodying that person. You learn a lot more using the space around you. So have you learned how to be a DJ? My wife would say I'm a terrible DJ. I was actually a novice DJ at the beginning of this, so I'd never really learned. And then when we started thinking about this problem, The reason we started thinking about this problem because we were two 30-something and one slightly older than 30-something founders who had all wanted to be DJs but we never managed to do it and we couldn't understand why because it seems like a reasonably straightforward thing to get into. And what we realized was there are lots of frictions to the beginning of that learning process. So you have to pick hardware, find a tutor, or go to a school, or watch online, dig through tons of videos. And so we figured out that VR would be a better way to do this. So then we went and signed up to DJ School. we wanted to understand what the current experience was. So we went to Pyramind in San Francisco, which is amazing for what it's worth. They're now one of our partners. And we signed up for an eight-week course, Evenings on Tuesdays. So I learned there the basics of DJing. And it was a fantastic course, but it also showed the limitations because a lot of that course revolves around PowerPoints and sharing a professional setup between 12 people. And so you don't actually get that much deck time And so we actually then subsequently worked with Pyramind to develop this. So Pyramind are actually a strong partner of ours, and we believe that this way actually will open up that learning process to a broader community. So it's a roundabout way of saying, I'm not a hugely experienced DJ, but I'm in training using our own product and whatever other tools I can access.

[00:11:35.466] Kent Bye: Has anybody started to use the tribe system of teaching them how to use a DJ to be able to go from not knowing anything about DJing to being able to actually DJ?

[00:11:45.293] Tom Impallomeni: So I guess it depends on what you define as being able to DJ, but we can get people from fear. So often when you put people in front of a big setup, your initial reaction is fear because there's like a hundred different buttons and you don't know what they do. And so we get people from that point, we put them in VR, explain the basics, and within about five minutes they can base walk with a real system. And that for us was a great initial proof point that you could get people over that initial hump that might stop them starting to learn. To train people to pro-grade level, we haven't got anyone to that point yet. yet because we've only been running the company for 11 months and it takes time to build up that level of content. But we can train people and we have trained people in our system to be able to put together a 30 minute set, 60 minute set that sounds good. And what we now want to do, we've started working with some pretty big name DJs, is actually deliver on the promise of actually taking someone from beginner all the way through to a star. And I think it would take a little bit of time to get there, but that's really our aspiration.

[00:12:52.590] Kent Bye: So you've actually had people go through virtual reality and then be able to throw them on the actual physical hardware, and they're able to kind of figure out and use what they just learned in VR.

[00:13:00.780] Tom Impallomeni: Yeah, and that's actually what I'm going to do with you now at VRLA, because behind you we have a proper DJ setup. And we can generally put someone on a piece of hardware within about five minutes of having stepped into VR, and they are capable of starting a track, switching bass, synchronizing, and then doing a smooth transition. And we think that's a really good proof point for what potential this product has.

[00:13:27.306] Kent Bye: So what's the kind of revenue model for Tribe in terms of like, are you selling the training? Are you selling a cut off of the tutors of being able to facilitate this platform? But you know, at some point you have to also pay your bills. And so what's sort of the model by which you're going to be able to sustain the company?

[00:13:45.575] Tom Impallomeni: So right now we are a consumer product. So we sell to people who have Oculus headsets. We're only on Oculus at the moment. We will be on other platforms within the next few months. And, you know, we're charging $4.99 for the setup currently. And it's a pretty basic setup that we're offering. But you're now able to use your own music and you can go in there and learn and take basic lessons and you can learn with your friends already. But the way that we see ourselves growing is we are at the core sort of B2B2C business because a lot of the partners who we are sort of working with are hardware manufacturers or in the case of DJing, you know, music companies, people who produce content or who license it, DJs, artists and so on. So there are partnership business models there, but the way that we envisage tribe scaling is to ultimately be the platform that enables this type of immersive learning. And so we have intentionally decided to choose initially one specific vertical to work very closely with the best partners in the business to deliver on that. But we then want to broaden out. So we want to first broaden out within music, to music production and other forms of musical training and then broaden into other creative arts where we provide the tools and the platform to enable our partners to create immersive content. So we see ourselves longer term as being more of an enabler to the broader gamut of immersive learning experiences where our direct clients will be anyone, whether it's a business, an individual, or say a DJ who wants to produce a DJing experience or someone who wants to teach dance or other form of experience. We want to enable them to produce these experiences using our platform and then to have people utilize that. So that's a sort of very securities way of saying consumer now b2b2c sort of midterm but our mission is to create the tools in the platform to enable this.

[00:15:59.260] Kent Bye: Yeah, in a lot of ways you're creating this training system and there's a lot of different models and theories of pedagogy or, you know, theories of how people learn and how you can best teach people and I find that virtual reality has this principle of embodied cognition which is, you know, you're immersed in an environment but you're also like you see your hands and you know you see it relative to this space and there's like this spatial relationship that you get from the VR that gives you this spatial awareness that can help you learn but I'm just curious as you've been developing the curriculum here like what have you been drawing upon in order to come up with the different theories of how to best teach people in VR?

[00:16:36.390] Tom Impallomeni: So, being frank, there's a combination of experimentation. So, I still don't think anyone has really worked it out yet, us included, because these platforms are still being refined. So, to give you one example, when we started doing live lessons, we learned very quickly that if you want to speed up the way that people learn, you add in a laser pointer. And then immediately, instead of describing and saying to people, you know, click the box on your left, turn the knob that is silver, you're pointing and then people immediately react. So we made that learning quite quickly, but in terms of what reference points we are looking at, so we looked at military training methods. So we developed a explain, demonstrate, mimic process, which we call EDM, if you're wondering the connection between music and learning. But it's actually based upon British military technique, which is explain, demonstrate, imitate and practice EDIP, which was used by the British military to train soldiers for years. And they used it for, you know, training with guns, situational training. So we looked at that framework and adapted it for what we're doing. And then the second thing is that the reference points that we are learning from is actually going and working with tutors in specific fields. So we work with a YouTube mentor called Elliskins. He has, I think, 200,000 followers on YouTube and his videos get about a million views per video that he produces. And the guy, all he does all day long is teach DJing to people. So we learned just from spending time working with him, you know, the pain points that people have. and the methods that he uses to overcome it. So I guess like when we talk about being a platform, what we want to be is an enabler for people with his knowledge to be able to transfer that knowledge more efficiently. So the way that you do that is by actually sitting with the teachers and understanding what they need. And that's where we are at the moment.

[00:18:44.790] Kent Bye: Yeah, it's interesting. I wonder if there'll be new variations. And just to kind of break down those approaches of the explain, you tell someone the idea of what you're about to do and why you're going to do it, demonstrate. So maybe you do it as a tutor and the teacher. And that process of walking through the steps allows the student to kind of invoke the mirror neurons to be able to then, when it's their turn, then they start to actually implement it. And then the practice is just the iteration, the repetition of just kind of repeating that. So there's the initial part of the explain which is still using like a verbal abstraction and I wonder if there's going to be ways to kind of like do visual metaphors and you know this is I think probably further down the line when we start to figure out like what is the best way to communicate in VR. I think that at this point people still talk to each other but I suspect that there might be something more that's out there. For example I could imagine like looking at the landscape of the the controls and like I want to see like a mapping of a meaning of like is there a way to sort of split that out and be like oh this is all related to this of or if there's a way to sort of translate that into a visual metaphor in some way so that when you are actively turning it maybe you get the feedback of that visual metaphor so like thinking about VR as a visual spatial medium and how can you sort of go beyond what we do now which is that's great to replicate it but where is it sort of ultimately going to end up?

[00:20:05.583] Tom Impallomeni: So this is actually one of the things that sort of keeps us up at night talking about what this actually means. So I suppose there is the opportunity to replicate what currently exists, but often those products have been designed based on the limitations of the physical world. And then you have immersive technologies that enable you to augment those experiences, either fully virtually or mixed or just using sort of AR. But what we've realized is that you can add layers. that augment the way that you learn. So for example, one thing that we're exploring at the moment is when you adjust the EQs, it creates a sense of warmth or cool in the room. So you adjust the lighting or the color. And that's a really simple way of transmitting like the sort of You're trying to get to a certain audio umami that you can't articulate it very well, but maybe adding a sort of color depth to sound combination is a way to communicate that. So that's one area that we're exploring. We've had tons of people talk to us about, well, why don't you design a VR DJ deck? So why don't you make it more for the purpose of DJing in VR? And yeah, we want to do that. We've built the backend to enable that. But really our vision was always to allow people to achieve the things that they had always hoped that they would be able to do but hadn't managed to do for some reason. And for us, I think being able to train people to go and then DJ in a club is a really powerful thing. And so I think redesigning the DJ setup will be complementary to that, but it's sort of complementary to our vision, if you like. The last thing that I would say is that I think it's going to be amazing when mixed reality headsets are a real thing. and consumer ready because the idea that your audience, so the idea that as an artist in a room, you could perhaps DJ and then apply a layer of visuals to a real room and then the audience could see those visuals that you create is a really interesting way to also communicate. So for us, the big interest area in music is putting a visual layer onto what has traditionally been just an audio thing. That's been done in concerts and in festivals and things like that forever, but the idea that as an artist you can do that yourself without spending a fortune on all this kit is a really interesting area as well. So there's a lot of opportunity in a nutshell, but we're trying not to boil the ocean straight out of the door. We are very, very focused at the moment on just finding the best way to teach people.

[00:22:50.604] Kent Bye: Yeah that's sort of the where my mind went after I asked the question was that yeah the whole design of this board is because it's limited to physical reality there's a little bit of a lot of abstractions actually just like you're turning knobs at are kind of loosely labeled with a word, but like, to have that visual feedback in real time, to translate the visualization of sound into the different ways that you can actually see a visual representation without even having to look at that. And then eventually, if you do design that augmented layer, then eventually either DJs will just start to do a, you know, if they have haptic gloves, maybe they'll just start to use that augmented reality interface to drive the, rather than have this sort of the constraints of physicality, But then there's the haptics, I think is the main thing, actually touching the actual knobs and having the nuance of that movement. The tracking of what I've seen today can't really match, I'm sure, the precision that a trained DJ is able to do and that they're going to want that sort of granular precision with actually touching those knobs, which would then leads to whether or not the whole design of that interface needs to have this iterative process. So maybe it goes from physical to virtual and then back into physical so that they can have that. So it seems like you're kind of at this genesis of the seed of this iterative process that may be going back and forth.

[00:24:08.162] Tom Impallomeni: I think, yes, absolutely. And I think what we've realized is that rather than this being a massive jump from current system to completely reinvented VR system that uses all the space around you, that it's going to happen in steps and that what we want to do is work closely with the people who use our products and then augment it. But by, in some ways, sitting between the manufacturers, the hardware as it currently exists, and the people who are using the new technologies to kind of experience this, we're actually in a kind of unique position of being able to help the hardware manufacturers rethink their products. So hopefully we are helping the customers and the hardware manufacturers, you know, sort of help each other, if you like.

[00:24:54.606] Kent Bye: Great. So what's next? What's next for Tribe?

[00:24:58.027] Tom Impallomeni: So we've just finished the Boost VC Accelerator down in San Mateo, which has been awesome. We are now in the process of going out to raise our seed round. We've been scaling up our team, and we are preparing for a sort of bigger push mid-year around a fully featured product with more lesson content and some new partners. So we have a busy few months ahead, but we actually have a live product already. So we're always looking for user feedback. So anyone who has feedback for us, we are very much sort of in the process of refining our product. So we would love feedback from any listeners you have as well on sort of different directions that we can take the existing DJ school.

[00:25:43.509] Kent Bye: And what do you personally want to experience in VR?

[00:25:46.696] Tom Impallomeni: That's a big question. I'm a VR fan. I've been involved with the VR market for the last three years. And I've always been at heart a sports fan and a music fan. And so the things that always intrigued me were how you can make experiences and learning processes better. In sports it was how can I be on the field and watch the game around me, but also in a way that's kind of understanding what makes great sports people great. Seeing close up the decisions they have to make and so on. And I think with music, we have something similar here. So for me, it's like, I would personally love to be able to use our own products and train myself all the way up to being sort of Martin Solveig or David Guetta. But you know, if we can achieve that, I think it would be phenomenal. And I don't see why it's not possible as this market matures because I think this is going to be the way that people learn. The last thing that I would like to see in VR is, you know, I have three daughters, all under six, and they're probably not really meant to use VR yet, but my eldest daughter loves VR, and I would love to see her be able to use VR to sort of speed up the way that she learns, you know, from a young age. So, to overcome maybe some of the barriers that, you know, younger kids have. So, yeah, I would love to be able to see something solve that problem to help people learn faster.

[00:27:19.390] Kent Bye: Great. And finally, what do you think is the ultimate potential of virtual reality and what it might be able to enable?

[00:27:27.897] Tom Impallomeni: I think the ultimate potential of virtual reality is the ability to remove distance and barriers to enable people around the world to get together and socialize, play together, work together. The fact that anyone should be able to use these technologies no matter where they are in the world is hugely beneficial. I think it's a great democratizer. We did a class recently at the San Francisco City College in the Mission. And there was a lady there who's from Algeria and she was telling us a story about how in rural Algeria it's very difficult for people to learn because they just don't have the schools. And that's where I really see the potential of this medium is like giving everyone, no matter where they are, the same opportunities to do this awesome stuff is just extremely powerful. I think Ready Player One, maybe the book more than the film, articulated the potential of VR in that way quite well. But yeah, that's where I see it, really bringing the world closer together.

[00:28:31.884] Kent Bye: Awesome. And is there anything else that's left unsaid that you'd like to say?

[00:28:36.627] Tom Impallomeni: Well, thanks for listening. Yeah, if you'd like to feedback on our product or try it out, just go to tribeVR.io or email me, Tom, at tribeVR.io, and we will happily take any feedback that you have. And I hope you enjoy our products.

[00:28:53.416] Kent Bye: Awesome. Well, thank you so much for joining me today. Thank you. So that was Tama Palamini. He's the co-founder and CEO of TribeXR. So I have a number of different takeaways from this interview is that first of all, the big takeaway here is that what they found was that there are some things that you're trying to learn that is actually faster for you to be in the same room as that other person. and for them to explain, demonstrate, and mimic. EDM. So, first of all, they give you the overall concept as to what you're trying to do, and then they're standing there with you, and they are able to reach out with their virtual avatar and be able to turn the specific knobs, and you're able to see the impact of that, and then mimicking what they're doing, and then you can practice it as much as you want. So the fact that you're able to go into this virtualized environment and potentially import your own music and start to actually put together DJ sets with the equipment that you would use in a professional context, this is lowering the barrier to entry to a lot of people to learn how to DJ. This was something that a lot of the founders wanted to do. They wanted to become DJs themselves. But they just found that there were all these various different blockers for whatever reasons that they didn't actually go through and do it. But as they started to learn about it, they just realized the importance of being able to actually get some flight time actually operating on one of these pieces of technology and equipment. And that was kind of the bottleneck for a lot of them. And to be able to really take their learning to the next level was to actually have time using the equipment. So it sounds like they're starting to do this collaboration with the hardware manufacturers and that I could see eventually how they're going to not only have these partnerships with the different hardware manufacturers, but there's going to be this iterative design process by which they're going to be getting feedback as to what is not intuitive to use, or maybe they're going to be able to replicate the software back end to the point where they're able to then do these virtualized trainings. But at some point, I could see how Augmented reality glasses would be able to actually help hardware manufacturers to either do interface innovations using spatial computing or being able to have additional information in displays as to what's actually happening on the backend. So right now, as you go into one of these virtual reality environments, they're basically doing what you could do if you were in the same room with somebody else. And so they're not necessarily using the affordance of virtual reality in order to really innovate in terms of. new spatial computing metaphors or anything else like that. And that's one of the things that Tom was saying that they've been thinking a lot about in terms of, you know, if you turn this dial and you have the qualitative aspect of it feeling cooler or hotter, maybe you have a blue light if it's cooler and a red light if it's hotter, but you're able to translate something that is fundamentally a qualitative dimension of music and be able to translate that into a multi-modal experience. whether or not you're in the virtual reality environment and you have some visual feedback or maybe eventually there'll also be some haptic feedback or just other ways to be able to translate the process of turning these knobs and modulating the music, being able to translate that into a multimodal interface. I think that this is where all of this is eventually going. And I think that we're starting with something that is very much like a haptic device, which is these DJ decks, which have all these knobs. And I think that the important point here is that there's something that is lost if you only virtualize all of this. You actually want to have the fine-grained control of being able to turn a knob and be able to hear the instantaneous feedback. And I think that is the art of being a DJ. Perhaps eventually you'll be able to take all of the DJ setup and completely virtualize it in a totally optimized spatial computing interface. We're certainly not at that point and I think something like Electronauts and what they've been able to do is something that is starting to take a first stab at what would be an optimized interface if you're only doing 3d spatial computing, but it's super simplified I mean, there's so many limited things that you can do and it's really geared towards people who are not professional DJs they're just somebody who's a casual DJ and it gives you the experience of being able to control and modulate some of the music, but it's nothing like being able to have access to the tools to be able to do like a full DJ set, the things that the professionals actually use. So it sounds like that they've found this niche of DJing where they're going to be able to maybe take people who are aspiring DJs and be able to have them transition from, you know, not knowing anything and to be able to learn the basics. And then through the apprenticeship and tutorial with professionals, maybe they'll get to the point where they're actually playing in these nightclubs and become a professional DJ. So I think That's the dream that each of them have for themselves and be able to use this technology to kind of eat their own dog food and to learn how to be a DJ, but also to empower other people that are out there within the virtual reality community. And it is available on Oculus, TribeXR DJ School. It's just $4.99. You can try it out. I think they're going to be expanding as well with more and more opportunities to be able to do this live one-on-one training. And I think that is going to be where it's going to perhaps be the differentiating factor for what they're doing relative to anybody else. And so definitely take a look at TribeXR and what they're doing. And I'm excited to see what kind of other immersive education innovations that they come up with over time. So that's all that I have for today, and I just wanted to thank you for listening to the Voices of VR podcast. And if you enjoy the podcast, then please do spread the word, tell your friends, and consider becoming a member to the Patreon. This is a listener-supported podcast, and I do rely upon your donations in order to continue to bring you this coverage. So you can donate today at patreon.com slash voices of vr. Thanks for listening.

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