Jeep Barnett is a programmer at Valve Corporation who has been on the VR team for the last couple year. He was at GDC showing off The Lab, which is a series of mini-games demonstrating different design principles within VR. I had a chance to catch up with Jeep after trying out four of their Lab experiments in order to learn more about how these came about as well as some of the VR principles that each one was trying to demonstrate. There are a lot more experiments left to be discovered when the Vive launches in the next couple of weeks, and these mini games and experiences definitely have a lot of replayable qualities and will make quite the impression as a lot of people’s first-time VR experience.
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Listen to more reactions and analysis of The Lab in this GDC wrap-up.
Rough Transcript
[00:00:00.068] Kent Bye: My name is Kent Bye, and I host the Voices of VR podcast. And back in July of 2015, I quit my job to do this full time. I just love doing it. But I do need your support to help continue this podcast. I've got lots of great insights from GDC and a lot of other conferences that I want to travel to and kind of be the proxy of the virtual reality community. So if you do enjoy this podcast, then please do consider becoming a patron at patreon.com slash voices of VR. The Voices of VR Podcast.
[00:00:41.931] Jeep Barnett: My name is Jeep Barnett. I'm a programmer at Valve. I've been working on the VR team for about two years. And I'm here showing the lab at GDC. The last thing that I worked on was the SteamVR performance test that we put out a couple weeks ago. So that's been a big thing. And then the robot repair demo, which we showed last year at GDC, I've been doing a bunch of updates to that, just to where people have access to it right now.
[00:01:03.147] Kent Bye: So yeah, maybe you could talk a bit about how the lab started, what's the intention of the lab, and what you're showing here at GDC.
[00:01:09.937] Jeep Barnett: Yes, the lab is really a collection of all the VR experiments we've been doing over the last few years. And, you know, we've been getting closer to launch of the Vive and realizing, you know, we've done so many things that we haven't shown to anybody outside of our office. And it would just be a really cool, engaging, essentially conversation with our customers to be able to say, here's all the things that we tried, here's what worked, here's what didn't work, and just give a very broad variety of the types of things you can do in VR. It's really just a sampler. Some of those things we've already shipped out, you know, Robot Repair and Secret Shop are examples of that. As well as the Longbow demo, we released that to developers as sort of an example of how to do haptics and how to do input when we first introduced the two controllers. And so those are just some examples where all this new content that we hadn't shown before, we're finally polishing it up into just this really cool package where people can kind of jump around between these different things. And the lab itself is this fiction where it's a pocket universe inside of Aperture and, you know, the miniature technicians there have sort of excavated and uncovered all these experiments that we've done inside of Valve and they're, you know, researching away in their own Aperture way. And, yeah, it's just a cool way to be able to experience all these different things.
[00:02:21.687] Kent Bye: Yeah, I had the chance to play through the three different lab sessions here and I had a lot of fun with each of them. Staying with the longbow example, Chet was just saying that the longbow is kind of like a test for your controllers and occlusion to make sure that you could put your hand out in front of you and your hand behind your head and still have tracking in. It's a really good example to me for that may be more difficult to do with just front-facing cameras. And so that's a really good mechanic that is really the strength of the Vive. And so in this experience, it's sort of like you have these characters that are coming out, and you have to be able to shoot them in different waves. And so I just played for a few minutes, but is this something that's built out into an entire full mini-game?
[00:03:02.400] Jeep Barnett: So all the different mini-games are, again, just showing you a spectrum of different types of things that you can do with it. And, you know, there's a score in almost all of them, so you can do score attack and, like, you know, try to compete with your friends, see who can do the best. But really, just as a sampler, it's something that not only we'll be sharing with you, but, you know, when you have this in your house, we want you to share this with your friends and family. And, like, each person that you watch do these different games and experiences, you'll see them try things that you hadn't thought of trying and find little secrets in there. I don't know, did you figure out the thing with the shields in Longbow?
[00:03:33.454] Kent Bye: No, I didn't. What was that? All right, so I'll spoil it for you. So spoiler alert, fast forward a few seconds if you don't want to hear this spoiler.
[00:03:40.457] Jeep Barnett: Basically, you can light your arrows on fire and those will burn away the shields. And so that's one of the ways to get at those more protected guys. So there's just little things like that, all these little things in the environment you can find.
[00:03:51.684] Kent Bye: So to me it feels like and at my experience of playing the longbow was that this feels like this motion that I'm doing my body in and that I kind of feel like over time I get better at it and that like I can start to kind of predict and shoot and have you found that in your own self like over time you get just like a lot better and you can tell the difference between someone who's just going in there and someone who's played it a lot.
[00:04:13.428] Jeep Barnett: Yeah, we watch people playtest all the time, and there's people who come to it who've never shot a bow and arrow in real life, they pick it up with the wrong hand, you know, all that stuff. And, you know, they start off, there's the horde gathering, a group of 20 people, you know, jumping and shouting, and they're trying to get one arrow to hit them, and, you know, the first 10 arrows miss, and, you know, by the end of playing through that, they're just nailing people from, you know, like, way far back in, you know, in their heads over their shields and all that stuff. And so just in the course of a single session, you can see people really improve. I think humans just, you know, have that plasticity of the brain where, you know, like you can turn, you know, hand motions and body motions into this learned behavior, right? And so for myself, you know, I played Longbow a lot. And we've had these demos sitting around for a long time. We shipped, you know, the version of this over a year ago. And so, yeah, over a year ago to people who knew about the secrets coming to previous GDC. So I've been playing it for a long time, and I felt like, oh, you know, maybe I've hit a threshold where I'm never really going to get better at this. But just in the last week where we've been doing, you know, hardcore testing, really trying to get everything locked down where I've been playing a couple hours a day, I'm getting so much better at it that I was like, wow, there's not really, I mean, it's obvious when you look at, like, competitive archery that you can get insanely, insanely good at it. And I do feel like I am getting a lot better over time. It's interesting.
[00:05:26.738] Kent Bye: Have you found that people that have archery backgrounds are better at this than people who don't?
[00:05:31.499] Jeep Barnett: Yeah, coming into it with the archery experience, people always do a lot better starting out. But there's definitely some, you know, slight differences in terms of how the controller is shaped versus how you hold a bow. And, you know, there's just enough little things that they always comment on. Oh, like, I usually hold it this way, but, you know, it's just a little bit different in VR. And we try to tweak it to match the realism of that as much as we can. But, you know, of course, you know, there's no poundage in the bow. There's all these things that won't match exactly to real-life experience. But they do tend to do very, very good compared to people who've never shot a bow. I wonder if the experience goes the other direction, where if somebody, you know, uses a bow in VR, if they'll have an easier time with it as a newbie starting out. It'll be interesting to see.
[00:06:11.309] Kent Bye: We could probably do some studies on that. So another experience that I saw was the postcards which was absolutely mind-blowing and amazing. I could have spent all day in there. It was like this amazing photogrammetry vista and just the resolution and the birds flying around and you know a little bit of like effects of the sky? Is it kind of emulating what it would actually look like? I thought that, for me, that was one of the most clear sense of just being in a place that I felt in VR. And you could teleport around and look around. And my first thought is, OK, when can I go anywhere in the world? This is amazing. And so talk a bit about starting off. You have a number of different postcard places that you can go and walk around. So how many different locations? And then where is that going to go from there?
[00:07:01.054] Jeep Barnett: So in the lab shipping we have six different photogrammetry locations, which are real-world scenes done with photographs. We have this guy, Adam Foster, he's just a photo nerd, but he has a handheld camera, he goes around. So he actually took a vacation in Iceland, took a bunch of pictures, and then said, you know what, I have an idea, I want to see if I can, over the weekend, you know, use some software to compile this into a thing. We already shipped a version of Iceland, you may have seen like a YouTube video of it out there somewhere. The one that you tried today was Vesper Peak, which is in northeastern Washington, and that's just another location where it's like, oh, I bet this would be a good spot to shoot some photographs. And so, yeah, it's insanely exciting because, you know, when I look at 360 photo scenes, it's like, you kind of get a sense that you're, you can look around and say, oh, okay, you know, the bell tower is this way and the lake is that way. But you don't feel like you're there, where this is like a completely different experience, where you're just transported to a new place. And it's interesting. We have one that ships in the lab that's a cave area. And we see people actually just kind of sit down on the floor and chill out and just enjoy this. It's sort of ominous, but it's also, I don't know, it's a very quiet, meditative place. And people just take in and enjoy these places for a while. It's really interesting. Yeah, I think where it's going is going to be, hopefully, an end-to-end system where people will be able to take a bunch of photographs, send it to a service, and then back will come an area that they can check out and that they can share with their friends. And then, of course, through services like the workshop or whatever places you'd be able to download collections of these, you'd say, you know what, I want to go to the Amazon, or I want to go anywhere, really. I want to go to Giza. I want to go to whatever. It'd be really, really cool.
[00:08:40.890] Kent Bye: I am really looking forward to that, because I think it's going to be really amazing, especially if you're able to take people to a place that they have a really emotional connection to already, you know, to allow them to go back there, even if they can't ever go back there for whatever reason. Just from a technical standpoint, though, so there's different places you can teleport. So each of those places that you're teleporting, what is he doing just taking 2D photos? And then, like, how many does he have to take? What's the resolution? What are some of the details that are required in order to create a photogrammetry scene like this?
[00:09:09.746] Jeep Barnett: So Adam actually did a really good blog post on this. It was about six months ago, you can go look it up, where he goes way deep into it, like deeper than I can understand, honestly, but the very basics of it is he takes a couple hundred photographs, these are just handheld photos, you don't need a tripod for it. These aren't long exposure, these aren't spinning shots, these aren't anything like that, just standard camera. The process to build those photographs into geometry, this is stuff that's been done for years and years, there's a lot of stuff that's been built for this, and You know, running it on a machine, you can do it overnight. You know, it's not something you can do on the fly obviously. At least not yet, who knows where computers will go. But you build that into a 3D mesh and it maps the textures onto that 3D mesh. And once you have that, you can actually set those hotspot locations anywhere around that scene where you have good detailed clarity and you can go outside of that and things will start to get blurrier. getting into the distance where you didn't take a clear nearby shot. But we actually just picked those spots because they were nice vista areas for you to stand. But really you can kind of place them anywhere you want. We tried to use areas that have flatter ground so you don't feel like you're tripping over the rocks and things like that. So, yeah.
[00:10:13.687] Kent Bye: Yeah, that's really exciting. And let's talk about the last game you have in the lab experience, Zortex, which for me was my personal favorite, and I could have spent all day in there. And it took a couple of times of dying to really get the hang of it, but I was just moving my hand around, all these objects were flying at me, and then as you go on more and more, there's just more things that you have to avoid and dodge and shoot. I just felt like it was using new parts of my spatial awareness, my peripheral vision, my sense of where my hand is actually at, like knowing where my hand is at and being able to... You can dodge even when you're not looking at your ship because you know where your hand is.
[00:10:51.905] Jeep Barnett: It's really interesting. Yeah, it's a game that we've been working on. I feel like that one's been eight or ten months, and one of the main guys helping with that is Zach Barth, who, you know, he did Space Chem, and he did a lot of different programming games. And, you know, we had a remote control sort of helicopter game that we were trying out, and it ended up, like, just through slow evolution turning into this, and it's really one of the most fun things that we've seen in a long time, where we're just, like, You know, you get into the zone, the music's pumping, and you're dodging all these guys. Even though you're dodging with just your hand, you're still making use of the full space, because if there's a huge wave of, like, you know, these bullet hell damage coming in one direction, you can kind of move your body to a safer area and, you know, start to fill out that. And yeah, it's really just... I don't know, it's weird, because there's going to be new, this shouldn't be a controversial statement, there's going to be new genres that VR invents, and I don't know if this is a new genre, but it's a new type of thing that I've never seen before, you know? It just feels very different from things that you've played.
[00:11:48.947] Kent Bye: Yeah, I've never, I don't think I've played anything that's quite like this, because part of the thing that I think is happening is that there's things that are shooting at your face, and so as things are coming towards you, like the stereoscopic effects are becoming more and more detailed, and so you get this kind of like near-field effect of You know, kind of like a lot of times when you have those small dollhouse scenes and they're like miniature and then you just look at them and they're really neat and interesting because you just have a lot of really interesting dynamic stereoscopic effects. And this, there's stuff just like flying at your face, but you're like combining that with a lot of really kinesthetic gameplay where you have to be able to move your body. And the thing I wonder is that like, and I think I got a score of like 3,500 or something, but like How long can you go? Is this like an infinite runner, or is this a game that actually has an end?
[00:12:34.209] Jeep Barnett: The way it's set up right now is it has an end. You can try to go for a high score, but hopefully we'll do some updates where we can add an infinite mode, because there's people who are really good at it right now who I would like to see how far they can get if it just keeps piling on the difficulty more and more.
[00:12:48.913] Kent Bye: Yeah, I'd like vote for that as well, because that's a game I'd want to just kind of play and play and play towards, you know, for high score or length or like, how do you measure that? Would you measure it just by score or, you know, like for you, for example, do you have a high score for that?
[00:13:02.353] Jeep Barnett: I don't know what my high score is because we just recently changed the scoring algorithm, so I don't know off the top of my head, but I would probably do it based on time, just how long can you go, and what's the recent shooter game that just came out that does that? It looks like Quake Arena, kind of, but yeah, just doing that sort of thing where you play as long as you can. But did you get to the boss in the game?
[00:13:20.578] Kent Bye: I got the boss like twice, I think, and then killed him twice, and then I ran out of time, so then they stopped it.
[00:13:26.332] Jeep Barnett: Okay, yeah, so it's kind of like it's I mean, it's a throwback to retro arcade shooters And so it just like that the boss kind of keeps coming back and you know getting more powerful each time And so eventually you'll have one final time where you can defeat him Nice, and so what can you tell me about some of these other lab experiences that you have that are gonna be released here? So, let's see. We haven't talked about slingshot at all. What did you think of that?
[00:13:47.603] Kent Bye: Oh, yeah. So was that the one? Oh, the slingshot. Right. I completely forgot about the slingshot. So the slingshot, actually, it took me a little bit to figure out that it was a slingshot, first of all. So they were calling it like a calibration machine. They didn't call it a slingshot. And so it was sort of like, oh, if they'd just called it a slingshot, I would have known what to do. The thing I really liked about the slingshot experience is that you have a record of your previous shot. The minder had to kind of tell me that that's what was happening. I didn't figure that on my own. But what that allowed me to do is, you know, you're just kind of shooting this ball and you have this trajectory and you're able to, based upon your previous shot, adjust and calibrate. And I think without that it would be really difficult. So that was another thing that I thought I got a little better over time as you learn how to shoot and everything. And so, yeah, that was another one that I just felt like it was just fun to destroy things and to shoot physics objects like that and see how they fly.
[00:14:39.839] Jeep Barnett: Yeah, I mean, so just like the longbow thing we were talking about, you can definitely start to learn the dynamics of that slingshot and kind of eyeball and make really good shots, be able to hit this explosive in the distance. But, you know, that one's really all about the vastness of that space. Even though you're in this tiny booth inside of GDC, you're shooting into this huge warehouse and, you know, launching things in distance and seeing these crumbling stacks of objects. And it kind of has this epic feel to it, which was the thing that drew us toward it immediately. Like, all these things I was talking about is, There are experiments where we're like, oh, I have an idea. Maybe this will be cool in VR, and we'll try it. And I would say 8 out of 10 things we try are horrible. They're not fun. And then 2 out of 10, we're like, this is the most rudimentary thing we've ever done, but it's amazing. And so all we need to do is just add a little polish to it and build some games around it. And yeah, we found that just a really interesting. exciting thing. I mean the thing is like you know talking about ideas is just you know we've done hundreds of things just trying to see what works in VR and there's probably a backlog of thousands of things that we want to try that we just don't have the time to do and that's why we've been really trying to get dev kits out to as many developers as we can because everybody has a million ideas and you know the more people who are trying ideas the sooner I think we're gonna find all these like you know just interesting little tidbits inside of VR.
[00:15:56.884] Kent Bye: Yeah, in talking to Sarah Northway, one of the things that she said about the Fantastic Contraption was that once you hit go, then physics kicks in, and then you're able to watch how your contraption moves. And it's a bit of a surprise and delight, because you're not quite sure what the contraption's going to do once you hit go. And then you tweak it, and then you play it again, and then you see it go again. And I think that this slingshot has a little bit of that as well, where you're shooting, and then you're observing, and then you're like a scientist in a way, and then you're adjusting, and then, you know. So it's a little bit of like, in the end, it's a pretty simple mechanic of just, you know, it's like Angry Birds in some ways. It's just like you're shooting a thing out. But there's something in our brains that just loves physics. And I don't know why, but I'm sure that you've noticed. And like, in these Vive experiences, the physics simulations just are so inherently compelling.
[00:16:45.760] Jeep Barnett: Yeah, I think that's totally true. I mean, like, you know, as humans standing on two legs, like physics is extremely important in terms of the way that we actually move around a physical space. And so our brains have to have a very inherent understanding of how physics works. And I think it is a really joyful thing, and I have spent time thinking about this, and I think that it's one of the ways that humans can actually see the future, like literally see the future, is when something is falling off a shelf, you know exactly where it's going to land, and that's you seeing the future. And there's just something, I think, just joyous or inherently interesting about that. And the cool thing is, is that, you know, through your entire life, whether it's, you know, something you do as a job, you know, if you're a professional archer, or if it's just, again, you catching something falling off a table, you know, before it breaks, everybody has this very, very built-up, inherent understanding of physics. And when you can immediately apply that to something in a game and not just in an abstract way of, you know, I'm playing Scorched Earth and I can see there's a parabola of, you know, where I'm dropping my plasma on these other enemies or Angry Birds as another example, but it's very literally tied to the physical space that you're in and the proprioception of your hands and how they move. Yeah, it's just really powerful because you're drawn into a VR space and you just believe that it's real. You're transported because it behaves the way that you expect.
[00:18:05.587] Kent Bye: Yeah, that's really interesting. At the Vision Summit, Alex McDowell was in an interview that I did with him talking about what he sees as the things that you can do in narrative storytelling and VR that you can't in 2D film. He said he wants to be able to mess with time, he wants to be able to mess with scale and proportion. Like, these are things that, within an experience in VR, like, you can play with the time. You can slow down physics, you can slow down time, and again, we're getting into these areas, and when you start to do that, it starts to be really super compelling when, in the natural world, we can't necessarily see the sun moving through the sky, but yet, we can do these time-lapse effects, and when we... are able to stand and have a sense of embodied presence while we're having these time-lapse experiences, I think that's going to be a super compelling thing, just as slowing down time has been. And so, yeah, to me, being able to see into the future is a little bit like that concept of playing with your perception of time.
[00:18:57.939] Jeep Barnett: Yeah, there's definitely been, you know, all these things that you can do in VR that you can't do in real life. It's another one of these weird brain plasticity things where growing and shrinking is, like, mind-blowing. You're like, holy shit, how is this even possible? But it's, you know, it's happening. And you're experiencing it in this real-time way. And then, five minutes later, you're like, oh yeah, I can grow and shrink. And then you take off the headset and you're like, why can't I shrink? This is weird. It's not that it becomes less impressive, but it becomes a part of your understanding of the real world, that time can move slow, that's just how time is. I can teleport. You want to move around this booth just like boop boop boop, hopping from place to place, and that's really interesting how that works. I love Space Pirate Trainer, I don't know if you've played it yet, but being able to not only have the ability to dodge when time slows down as the bullets come at you, but you're looking at and shooting at an enemy and time slows down and it makes you look and say, wait, where's the bullet coming from? Something's coming from behind me because I can tell that time is slowing down. It's really cool how we start to build those concepts into our human experience and have like a learned way of behaving.
[00:20:03.141] Kent Bye: Yeah, and what are some of the other, you know, kind of VR design principles that you've embedded into these lab experiences? Because I imagine that this could be one way for Valve to start to share some of these experiments and learnings. And so from those learnings are kind of like these different principles of what makes a good VR experience. And so what are some of those principles and then the name of those experiences that are also in the lab?
[00:20:25.520] Jeep Barnett: Yeah, so there's a lot of different things. I mean another example is being able to do cutaways in sort of an intuitive way. So I'm trying to think of how to describe it. Like if you've ever seen the bodies exhibit at a museum where you can take sections of a body and actually see these sort of diagonal slices through it. When you're able to control that in real time and like sort of understand like, you know, what are the different layers. Like if you look at, you know, how scans of the brain are done. Scientists have to be able to look at all those different layers and in their head compile it into a 3D image. Or a dentist for example, being able to understand how those slices relate to real space. But now in VR you're actually able to control those slices on your own and it's just a different way of perceiving a 3D object and really interesting. That's just a visual example that is tied to your input. But we've been doing a lot of different things like that, just trying to find when you have the ability to have very fine motor control of 3D space and objects in 3D space, what can you do with that?
[00:21:27.961] Kent Bye: Any other ones from the lab that you think are worth mentioning at this point?
[00:21:32.563] Jeep Barnett: I'm blanking out on a bunch, but it's just because I have been working so hard on it, and I probably have a lack of sleep. And I think there's a few I want to save as surprises for when people check it out when it comes out.
[00:21:43.008] Kent Bye: Awesome. Well, what's been some of your favorite memories or stories of being in VR then?
[00:21:48.183] Jeep Barnett: Oh my God, there's way too many. Let's see. One of my favorites is, this is really early on when we were doing the room demo. We had some guys from Google over checking it out. And we had this very abstract demo scene demo. I don't know if you ever saw it, but it's essentially this very ambient music and you're sort of floating through this abstract geometric space. And about halfway through that demo, the guy says, is it okay if I do a weird thing? And I was like, I have no idea what's about to happen, but okay, yeah, go ahead. And he lays down on the floor in like a Superman pose, and he's like flying through this abstract scene, and it's, you know, totally like that scene from The Lawnmower Man or whatever. And it was just, like, to me that was mind-blowing, because I was like, why didn't I think to do that? Now I want to try that. And as soon as he left, I did. And I was like, this is the best.
[00:22:38.133] Kent Bye: That's awesome. So following on that, what do you want to experience in VR then?
[00:22:43.977] Jeep Barnett: Oh my god. So many things I want to try. Actually, it's sort of a corollary to that. There's the Birdly videos that have gone around. And I still have not experienced that myself. So I definitely want to try that. I hear it's really cool. But I've been thinking about, and indie designers out there, please steal this idea, because I just want to play it. I don't actually want to do the work. I want to try, instead of having a table that you lay on, to instead lay on your back, where the earth is essentially up above you. So that as you're raising your arms toward the ceiling, that's sort of the weight of your hands or your wings, essentially. You would get that sort of feel. I don't know if it would work, but I think it might. And I'd be really curious to try that.
[00:23:22.849] Kent Bye: So you're on your back you see the earth and you wave your hands forward and then what happens to the earth or I don't
[00:23:27.402] Jeep Barnett: So no, the idea is that you're flying, but we're simulating that by having you laying on your back. So even though you're upside down, you might be able to imagine that gravity is the opposite direction and that you're being lifted up because gravity is pulling toward your back. I don't know if that makes sense. It's a little bit abstract, but I think it might work. I don't know. I'm curious.
[00:23:45.853] Kent Bye: Yeah, someone should try it out. They'll see. So finally, what do you see as kind of the ultimate potential of virtual reality and what it might be able to enable?
[00:23:54.558] Jeep Barnett: I mean, people have talked about this. People call it, you know, the final medium because all other mediums can be contained within it. That's probably true on, you know, on some infinite technological lifetime. And, you know, that is the potential of this. Not only can you contain anything that exists, you can make entirely new worlds and places. And that's going to be really interesting. where I see it going in more the short term, and we don't know how many years out this stuff is. If you asked me three years ago when we would see this technology, I was like, maybe when I'm 80. So I would like to be able to see, when you go in a restaurant, you see people pull out their cell phone and look at their phone. Take a survey of the room, there's 20% of the people looking at their phone. I think in a couple years, 20% of the people are gonna be paying attention to their VR headset that's a pair of sunglasses at that point, or whatever it looks like. And so I think it's just going to be something that's more casually integrated with our lives just in the same way we have phones where you want a piece of information or somebody's talking to you about their house and they're like, oh yeah, you should check out and see what my new dining room remodel looks like. And you know, you can just check it out while you're sitting there in the restaurant with that sort of thing. I think that's really what I want to see is just it integrated more with our lives in general and in social places where we can talk about and share these experiences.
[00:25:08.703] Kent Bye: Awesome. Is there anything else that's left unsaid that you'd like to say?
[00:25:12.707] Jeep Barnett: Thanks so much for talking to me. I've been really enjoying the podcast for a long time and, you know, I didn't know if I'd have a chance to meet you here and I'm glad I did. Awesome. Well, thank you so much, team. Thanks.
[00:25:22.737] Kent Bye: And thank you for listening. If you'd like to support the Voices of VR podcast, then please consider becoming a patron at patreon.com slash Voices of VR.
