Tony Davidson is the developer of the puzzle-based, adventure game called Ethereon. He talks about the process of creating a world that you can explore and interact with where there are puzzles that are well-integrated into the environment and make sense. He liked to take things apart and put them back together as a kid, and wanted to create a slower-paced VR experience that appeals to this type of exploration.
He talks his approach for optimizing his VR experience by only using 270k polygons, and a handful of texture maps. He set his target platform to Android, and was very mindful of getting frame rates ranging from 120 to 300 frames per second.
Tony also talks about the process of using RiftUp in order to upgrade the resolution of his Oculus Rift. He shares his thoughts on creating more immersion by avoiding photorealism and creating a less familiar, lucid dream type of environment where it’s easier to suspend your disbelief.
Finally, he talks about his vision for creating personal and solo experiences within VR, and his hopes that the slower-paced games adventure and puzzle-based games will have a resurgence within VR.
Reddit discussion here.
TOPICS
- 0:00 – Intro. Ethereon puzzle game. Solo project. Exploration game. Worked on Riven. Has an adventure background. Learned 3D because of VR, and made a demo which got him a job. In promo mode now.
- 1:46 – Myst and Riven games were old-school, pre-rendered game. Explore a world and interact. You figure things out to explore more. Ethereon is physics-based game, and well integrated in environment
- 3:34 – What happens when people can’t figure it out. Some people just give up. Other people really get it. Like to tear things apart as a kid, and people like that will appreciate that. VR mimics reality. Put them in a world where they have to figure it out.
- 4:48 – How to balance moving people forward without giving too many spoilers. Community will share hints and spoilers. It’s a slower-paced game. People who like to run and gun are ones who have more trouble.
- 6:35 – Slower pace, and dealing with VR simulator sickness. Had a hard time with it.
- 7:46 – RiftUp kit details to get higher definition within Oculus Rift
- 9:59 – Does it account for the barrel distortion?
- 10:37 – AMOLED screens will have low persistence relative to LCD.
- 11:13 – Frame rates and adapting for higher resolution. Only 270k polygons. Targeting Android as a minimum platform. Getting 120-300fps
- 13:02 – Photorealism vs. more immersion in less photo-real, low-poly world. Reflections and other effects help trick people in believing it. Non-photo real is less familiar and it’s easier to suspend your disbelief. Reality and Lucid dream.
- 15:54 – High contrast working better in VR. Setting it in space.
- 16:43 – Potential of VR. Not a big fan of the metaverse, and more about creating a personal and solo experience. Adventure, puzzle-based games and slower-paced games to have a resurgence.
Theme music: “Fatality” by Tigoolio
Rough Transcript
[00:00:05.452] Kent Bye: The Voices of VR Podcast.
[00:00:11.957] Tony Davidson: I'm Tony Davidson. I just recently founded a new startup called Inner Vision Games, just for my game, Ethereon, that I've been working on for a full year now. This is my anniversary this month, right? So I've been developing it full-time myself, just doing everything, you know, from art, animation, programming, and all that. I've had to teach myself a lot, like the coding and sound and whatnot. So, it's just a project I'm doing completely solo, you know. What it is, is it's an exploration style game. It's a lot like Myst or Riven. As you know, I worked on the Riven game. So, I have a kind of an adventure background. Interestingly, Ethereon started out like in the early 90s when I first saw virtual reality. And, you know, I just really wanted to create worlds to explore and other people to explore. So I put together a three-and-a-half-minute demo. I actually learned 3D because of that and put together a three-and-a-half-minute demo. And it caught the eye of Robin Miller from Cyan. And that's how I ended up getting the job on Ribbon. So I tried to pursue it after that, but VR just, you know, fell away and then so did adventure games. So I ended up in movies and stuff. And once the Rift came out, as soon as I could, I just jumped on it. I moved up to Oregon, where I could live on the cheap and sleep on the floor, you know what I mean, and do the indie thing. So that's where I'm at on that. But now I'm in promo mode, because I've done all this development, and I'm just trying to raise awareness and try to get some interest and stuff so I can move forward. That's why I'm here. So this is my first time showing it anywhere.
[00:01:46.401] Kent Bye: Great. And so in my background, I played Doom in like 1994 and then I stopped for 20 years. So I don't have necessarily a gaming background. And for me and maybe some of my listeners, maybe you could explain like what Myst and Riven are and how you can kind of describe that.
[00:02:00.665] Tony Davidson: Sure. Absolutely. Actually, I'm not much of a gamer myself either. When I was young, you know, I loved games, but virtual reality was mainly my interest and that's how I got into the adventure games. Games like Myst and Riven, they were very old-school, pre-rendered games, point-and-click, you know, very basic. But the idea was there, you know, to explore another world and to whatever degree you were able to, you know, to interact and stuff within your world. And basically, most of them are puzzle-based. So, how it works is you're thrown into an environment and you have no idea really where you are. It's just a great mystery. And you just kind of wander around You learn, you know, and you figure things out and just try to find your way around and one thing sort of leads to another and you're kind of unlocking more and more of the game or more areas of the game so you can explore more. Most of them are puzzle based and some of them are, in my opinion, well integrated and some probably aren't. Some don't make a lot of sense. With Ethereon, I'm very much into the physics based, kind of based on real world physics. You know, I like things to make sense and stuff. But I'm really pushing the envelope on that so Like with Ethereon, there's just a lot of unique concepts in there using real world physics, but just really pushing it. So you're kind of wondering, is this possible or not? The type of puzzles in Ethereon are just very well integrated into the environment. The environment itself is actually like a giant machine. So you just interact with it. And that's basically what it is. The puzzles are so integrated, you can't really tell you're doing a puzzle, that sort of thing. So that's probably where mine's maybe a little different.
[00:03:33.530] Kent Bye: I see, yeah, because I watched Somatic Bruce on his livestream play through your game. And so I guess one thing that happens is some people, when they come against the puzzle, they just can't figure it out. And so I'm just curious about how you've done user testing. And what do people do when they start your game and they're like, OK, now what?
[00:03:49.818] Tony Davidson: Yeah, exactly. Some people, they just give up. They're just like, oh, I don't have time for this, or it's too much. Maybe I have to think too much for myself. hate to say that but I kind of get that impression by some of the feedback but then there's a large majority of people that really get it you know they love it they like the intrigue and they like to you know solve things and figure it out growing up as a kid I was the type of person that always like to tear things apart and figure out how they work and put them back together and stuff so it's really it's probably people who have that sort of mindset would probably really appreciate this because you're having to figure out what the hell's going on here and you know and I like that actually it's I VR kind of mimics reality. And, you know, here we are on Earth, you know, we're having this experience and we're trying to figure out what it is and what it means. And so I kind of like that idea of putting somebody into a world they've never been and letting them figure those things out on their own. You know, what are the laws here? And how does this work? And what does it mean?
[00:04:46.772] Kent Bye: I guess a question is like, how do you balance that sort of nudging them along, giving them a hint and or, you know, having online communities without being too much of a spoiler?
[00:04:56.619] Tony Davidson: Yeah, exactly. Good point. I figured that, I know with a lot of games, like, for example, I played Final Fantasy XIII recently with my son, and I'd say 40% of that game we were having to go online and look up hints to figure out how the hell to move forward, you know? So, I figured that people would probably do that. There'd be a sense of community where people might share their experiences online, and if they have to, they can go there for a resource. you know, figure it out. So I was just kind of want to leave it open like that. And I really don't want to give people any hints at all or any spoilers at all. I'm just not a big fan of that. So I haven't really given great consideration to helping people through if they struggle too much. I guess I've left them on their own a little bit. I haven't addressed it, you know.
[00:05:40.796] Kent Bye: All right. OK. That's interesting. So yeah, you're kind of leaving it up to the community.
[00:05:46.434] Tony Davidson: Yeah, some people are gonna like that kind of thing and other people don't get it I know people that are used to really running through the environments and kind of a run-and-gun, you know approach They seem to be the ones having the trouble They don't like the slower paced feeling and having to sort of figure out what's going on once that hits and settles in I think that's where some people back out, you know, they're not comfortable but other people, you know, they really kind of dig in and you know, into the intrigue and they, you know, they set their mind to figuring it out. So I'm getting actually a lot of people solving it. I'm hearing from people, which, you know, when you develop this or design this, you really have no idea. You know, it's a huge experiment. So I had no idea if anybody would ever be able to solve it. So obviously I was happy when I started hearing from people that they literally figured it out. So it is challenging. It's a challenging game.
[00:06:35.516] Kent Bye: Awesome, yeah. Well, I do think that the slower pace is going to be much more well-suited for VR just because of the simulator sickness issue. I'm curious, just in the process of you developing, did you face your own sort of getting your VR legs in place?
[00:06:47.423] Tony Davidson: Yeah, absolutely. I had a terrible time, frankly. When I first got the DK-1, I spent about 20 minutes in, which is like the Tuscany demo. To be honest, I just had a horrible time. I was very nauseous and sick, and it lasted for days, you know. And I remember I was kind of bummed. I was thinking, shit, I waited all this time, you know, for VR and here it is and it doesn't really work, you know. But once I saw and got a hold of the DK2 and tried that out, I realized, okay, this is going to work, you know. So, but yeah, I had a hard time. Frankly, I'm still getting my legs and I can't spend more than you know, 20 minutes at a time in VR. But in my own game, I'm able to last up to an hour or so. I don't know if that's because I've adjusted it for what's comfortable for me, or if it's just because I'm so used to spending time in there. It's probably a little of both, because I've definitely made an effort to try to cater it to that, to make it less, whatever, less of a vomiting experience.
[00:07:46.542] Kent Bye: And so you had mentioned that you like to take things apart, and you have Rift Up integrated into your Rift. Maybe describe what is Rift Up.
[00:07:53.787] Tony Davidson: OK, sure. Yeah, totally. I teamed up with VR Union, the guys behind the Rift Up kit. They're over in Prague. And I basically contacted them because I really wanted to showcase my game in the best quality that I could. And HD is what they have. In fact, they have a super nice screen. I think it's a 5 by 9 inch. It's a 6.22 megapixel. It's LCD. So it actually has more, you know, like a higher pixel density rating than even the DK2. And I know that it has a wider field of view than the original Oculus HD that they sent out to people and showcased, I guess, a few months ago. So they sent me a kit that was already converted, you know, upgraded. But the kit is really interesting. You essentially gut the entire Oculus and replace everything in there, the control board, all the electronics, the display. And I guess you could hardly call it an Oculus at that point. In fact, they sell a version of it to where you can actually print your own headset and sort of create your own HMD. And in fact, there are some companies, I think, that are basing their products off of their kit. So it's really complete. And they're also working on a low persistence integration somehow through software using the backlighting and stuff. So they're really developing it. And it seems like they have a really nice kit. It works really well. From a developer standpoint, it's really nice to have to work with. And for a slower-paced game like mine, it works perfect, you know. And I'm definitely able to spend a lot longer in there. One thing I've noticed, though, there's a different side effect with that. I can spend a lot longer immersed inside the headset, but I've noticed that whenever I come back out, you know, pull the headset off, It takes a little longer for my eyes, I think, to focus and readjust. And I'm thinking that has to do with the fact that when you're in there, you're actually able to focus a lot more, you know, than you do with the DK-1. A bit of blurriness and screen door, you know, it kind of causes me to not want to focus so much, you know. And with this, you really get in there and you see all the detail and everything. And so I think you're really actually focusing more. So it takes a little longer to readjust your eyes. But I'm new to it, so I'm sure I'll get used to it and that'll go away.
[00:09:59.421] Kent Bye: Well, what I would wonder is that there's a barrel distortion within the camera that is taking an expected amount of pixels in that ratio and then using the algorithm to distort it relative to the lens. And if you're doubling the resolution, I would expect that there may be some distortion at the edges. I'm not sure if you've noticed that or not.
[00:10:17.328] Tony Davidson: Yeah, actually I haven't noticed that, but that's a good point. Yeah, I'll have to look a little closer, but I haven't noticed anything to be honest. It seems pretty clear in there. So we're getting actually really good feedback from here from a lot of people. Some people are saying that it's probably the nicest one they've tried, you know, interestingly. So it has a beautiful display.
[00:10:36.178] Kent Bye: Yeah, well what I would wonder as well is with the next leap in different technology of the AMOLED screens versus the LCD is a little bit of what I understand is that it's flickering at such a fast rate, a sub millisecond, so you get a little bit different low persistence when you're moving around.
[00:10:53.050] Tony Davidson: Yes, that's right. That's right. I think it definitely you have lower persistence with the oculus with the AMOLED displays like that So you do get that pen tile effect and it is a bit of a screen door It's a little different than the DK one But it's still kind of noticeable to me and I don't really notice that with this particular upgrade kit.
[00:11:10.995] Kent Bye: So Yeah, well, I would hope that that's a stopgap solution and that would eventually go away So we don't have to do that at all with the rift, right?
[00:11:17.805] Tony Davidson: Yeah, totally. But actually, I think that as the resolution goes up, it's going to be interesting to see how games adapt for that, because I know a lot of people are really on the borderline right now with their frame rates. So, I was fortunate enough that I started from the very beginning, I designed this to be super optimized Ethereon. So, like the entire game has 275,000 polygons, you know, which is less than a typical game character. and it's using less than a dozen texture maps. So it's very efficient, very optimized. So I did that intentionally because I see it, you know, the technology being a big barrier into what we're able to create the experience. So I tried to approach it how I could create something believable and try to entertain the suspense of belief and whatnot while making it more efficient and optimized for VR headsets. I'm looking at, you know, consoles. particularly Sony PlayStation because they're the only one, but also the Android-based headsets, the mobile devices. I see that as being a huge future, like Game Face Labs and stuff. So from the very go, I'm trying to keep it extremely optimized. I'm actually kind of targeting Android or the next generation as being my minimum or whatever platform. So, I've taken that into consideration, and I think that as the resolution goes higher and higher, like with this HD one, I'm running at the 1920 by 1080, but I'm getting, you know, as high as 300 frames per second in some of my areas, and at the very lowest, about 120 frames per second. So when they finally release a commercial kit, you know, I should even if it's 1440 I should be well above the limit But yeah, that is going to be an issue. I think as the visual quality and the displays are there, you know It's going to be a matter of designing a game that takes advantage that but you know is also capable of running at that You know high resolution
[00:13:01.975] Kent Bye: Yeah, one of the things I'm curious about if you've experimented a little bit with adding more and more photorealistic textures and imagery is a trade-off with performance but also in terms of like you're in this virtual world and in some ways you can still feel just as immersed and almost believe it more if there's less realism. Did you kind of find that?
[00:13:17.865] Tony Davidson: That's right, that's absolutely right. I feel like I've done that pretty well, because I'm getting some feedback from people who, they don't notice it at all. It's not an issue at all. They don't get a sense, really, that they're in some low-poly world or something. So I've sort of dressed it up as much as I could. There's a lot of reflections and stuff in the game, and those sort of, I think, trick a person into believing it a little more. When they see reflections, that's kind of a really instant cue on the surface, you know? Mentally, I think that it's easier to sell. And so I've just tried to capitalize on that and use those sort of effects, you know, that I can get away with to just sell the believability of it. And the thing that I've noticed is I don't think photo real is frankly the way to go. You know, I worked on ribbon and stuff and that was 20 years ago almost. And, you know, the quality of that people said was photo real and that's what we were going for. But, you know, I had, like, 40-hour render times on a single frame and on some of my environments in Riven. So, even today, it's, like, highly impractical. And I also feel that, as far as immersion goes, that maybe photoreal is not really the ideal way to go, because I've noticed the more realistic the world is, the more familiar it is to us. When something does stand out, for example, characters, you know, like avatars, It's a long way off from having the degree of facial animation, the detail that it takes, how comfortable we are when we see people speak, and there's all the subtle nuances in the face and the muscles, and that's really obvious. If you look at a DreamWorks character on film, once they start speaking and it's out of sync, it really kind of breaks immersion. You lose the believability of the world. And so, for me, it's like I'm not even trying to go necessarily photoreal, but I am trying to create something that seems tangible and believable, like you're actually there. And I personally think that's probably the right direction to go. And virtual reality to me is, I'm not really interested in duplicating reality or trying to recreate reality. I see virtual reality as being different. I like to think maybe it falls somewhere between our reality and maybe something like a lucid dream-like experience. So I'm just trying to sort of capitalize on that gray area. create an experience that's something other than reality but yet still believable. I personally think that's the way to go. I'm not inspired to recreate, you know, our everyday reality anyway. The idea to me is to create places that we can't otherwise go to and explore. I wanted to create something that was kind of a more surreal experience, sort of dreamlike, so that's kind of my direction in there.
[00:15:52.604] Kent Bye: So when I was working on a Game Jam game, we ended up putting it in space. The developer, Yuri Kvetchko, said one of the things that he thought worked really well in virtual reality was having really high contrast. And when I see what Ethereum has done, I see this really high contrast. I'm not sure, did you do that deliberately, or did you notice that really high contrast things tend to work better in virtual reality?
[00:16:12.870] Tony Davidson: Yeah, I did notice that early on, but I didn't necessarily go that direction because of that. But I did recognize that. Yeah, I wanted to set it in space. I like the atmosphere. I like the feel of it and whatnot. So that's kind of why I went that direction. Actually, most of that game, Ethereon, takes place underground. And it starts out above ground like that at nighttime. So you see all the stars and everything. And at the end of the game, it finishes back up there. But it finishes at dawn. So it's more of a daylight time.
[00:16:41.197] Kent Bye: Cool. I guess finally, looking at VR, what do you see as the potential of what VR could be and where it's going?
[00:16:47.897] Tony Davidson: Yeah, that's really interesting. I guess I would say I'm not really so much into the idea of the metaverse, you know, which I think is huge and everyone seems to be really into that. But for me, it's more about creating a solo experience, you know, like an individual or personal experience, you know, something that you do just by yourself, you know. So that's kind of my interest. And like, for example, some of the other genres, like the first person shooter genre, that's, you know, really been rocking for the last 20 years, I know that they're kind of struggling to, you know, work their way into VR, you know, those games. So I'm sort of anticipating like a, you know, a giant gap there in content. So I'm really hoping that, like adventure games and these puzzle-based exploration games, that they might, you know, sort of fill that gap and come back to life and, you know, because they've sort of disappeared. But they lend themselves really well to virtual reality. You know, back then, the problem, I think, was the interaction and the ability to freely roam around and, you know, have that be believable. Well, now with virtual reality, it just really lends itself to those kinds of games and being slower-paced and And I think that's really a big benefit for it. So I think it's probably more like a symbiotic relationship between the two. So I'm hoping that we'll see that kind of a resurgence of those games, that they'll find a home with VR. And I hope so. I'm a fan of the adventure games and a big fan of VR.
[00:18:12.187] Kent Bye: Great. Well, thanks so much.
[00:18:13.387] Tony Davidson: OK, cool. Thank you. Appreciate it, Ken.
