I spoke with Jiyue Human about VRChat Doc The Architect Across Realities as a part of my Raindance Immersive 2025 coverage. See more context in the rough transcript below.
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Rough Transcript
[00:00:05.458] Kent Bye: The Voices of VR Podcast. Hello, my name is Kent Bye, and welcome to the Voices of VR Podcast. It's a podcast that looks at the structures and forms of immersive storytelling and the future of spatial computing. You can support the podcast at patreon.com slash voicesofvr. So I'm going to be starting to dive into my extensive coverage of Rain Dance Immersive 2025 and the Raindance is a festival that is featuring around like 75% of all their different projects are connected to like a social VR platform, mostly VR chat, but some resonate. In the past, I've had some pieces and like engage VR, but most of it is in VR chat. So it's really looking at the social VR culture that is being born out of these platforms, platforms like VR chat. So this first interview is with a short film that was not in competition. It was by one of the curators of Rain Dance, also one of the curators of Sandbox Immersive based down in China. And so Jiayu is somebody who I've seen and met on the film festival circuit and is often there watching a lot of these different immersive experiences, but also is an independent filmmaker who is making different anthropological studies of different aspects of virtual culture. And so She starts to dive into some of the different things that are happening within Japanese culture, looking at specifically around like the trends of mixed reality. And so she finds this architect named Oji-chan who is looking at these ideas of paper architecture and virtual architecture. So things that are more theoretical, things that wouldn't necessarily ever be built as a physical building, but in the context of VR, starting to explore these new types of virtual interfaces, looking at how the physical and virtual realities are being blended and blurring together. doing a photogram scan of a room and then putting it into a virtual reality experience and then creating a composite camera house that has like an apartment building that is all these different personal rooms stacked on top of each other so that we could have these friend groups that can go hang out in their makeshift virtual apartment that is all their actual rooms but put together within the context of the virtual space and so things like that where they're starting to blend and blur the line between what's physical reality and what's in the virtual realm And so this is a short film that has not been released yet. And so I just wanted to talk around some of the different concepts and ideas. And at some point it should be made available so that you can watch it, but it's going to be on the film festival circuit. And I just thought it was interesting enough in terms of some of the different anthropological insights that's being pulled out there and also diving into the Japanese culture and community of what's happening in virtual realms, which is also kind of a theme of this year's Rain Dance Immersive and particularly in some of my coverage. So we're covering all that and more on today's episode of the Voices of VR podcast. So this interview with Jayu happened on Tuesday, July 1st, 2025, and it was happening virtually, but in the context of Rain Dance Immersive 2025. So with that, let's go ahead and dive right in.
[00:02:56.075] Jiyue Human: My name is Jiu Hu. I'm a curator in real life. I'm working for Sandbox Immersive Festival, and I joined the curation team of Ring Dance Immersive in December 2024 for the edition of 2025. Great.
[00:03:10.864] Kent Bye: Maybe you could give a bit more context as to your background and your journey into VR.
[00:03:17.113] Jiyue Human: Well, I studied interior design in college and then I switched to filmmaking when I studied in Paris. And I think that's 2016. There's VR pieces here and there in Paris in the cinemas. So I saw a 360 video there. And that caught my attention immediately. So in 2017, there was Venice VR for the first edition. And I was thinking, oh, if I should go there or not. And fortunately, I have a friend who had worked there. you know, some pieces about VR and she said, you should go, you should have a look. So I went there and I met a lot of VR people there, including Maria, the head curator of RingDance, and also Eddie Lo, the director of Sandbox Immersive. So, yeah, so I had interest in working in VR and I asked Eddie, if I can, you know, had an internship in Sandbox Immersive. And that's the first edition that was 2018. He said, yeah, yeah, please join us. And I had a good time there. And I saw a lot of, you know, high end, very avant-garde VR pieces. And I got to talk to the creators of those pieces, which is a very precious experience. Yeah, that's how I started the journey.
[00:04:49.400] Kent Bye: Nice. And so when did you come across VRChat on your journey into VR?
[00:04:54.243] Jiyue Human: Oh, yeah. In 2019, the COVID started, and I had nothing to do. I was scrolling in social media, especially for VR stuff, trying to see if I can do something. I played Half-Life Alyx, but it was a little bit boring to play alone in VR. I just saw Maria, she posted something on Twitter saying, oh, there's Ring Dance Immersive. I know Ring Dance, the physical part of it. And in 2020, she said it's going to be in VRChat. So I had no idea what VRChat is, but I would love to try. So I went there, I hop on, and I met Maria in a public instance. And she taught us everything about VRChat, like how to open the menu and how to join events, how to talk to people. She did very clearly. I was very lucky that there is a professional person who taught me for the first time. And I attend every event by Ring Dance Immersive as I can. And actually after Ring Dance Immersive, I left VRChat for a bit because I don't know anybody else except Ring Dance people. And I couldn't remember why I hop on again. And I met some random players. And there's Devouring selected by RingDance. And that was a huge game. I can't play it by myself. So I just asked my random friends. I just met, like, can we play together? And we spent six hours in the game. And that's how I make friends a bit. And then I know friends of friends. And then I have, you know, have my own community. And at the same time, there's the Japanese community. They did a lot of music events. You can just friend them, even though you don't meet them and you don't know them. At that time, it was possible. You just friend them and you join them right on time. I had a good time there. And that's how I met my protagonist, Uji-chan. Yeah.
[00:07:12.332] Kent Bye: Yeah, I had a chance to attend the Sandbox Immersive, I believe it was in 2019 that I came and gave a talk. And when I traveled into China, what was really striking was that they have the great firewall of China where it was hard for me to get connected to my social media, to my Google accounts and Gmail. And my understanding is that for the most part, folks within China are blocked from getting onto VRChat, but there may be some people who are able to either through VPNs get connected. And so just curious if there is like any underground VRChat Chinese community or if it's something that you prefer not to talk about, that's fine as well. Just curious how people living inside of China may be getting access to VRChat and just trying to get a sense of what the scene is like for VRChat in China.
[00:07:57.813] Jiyue Human: Well, actually, VRChat is not blocked by the firewall. But it's not whitelisted. So it's tricky to hop on without a VPN. But you can do it, actually. A lot of Chinese players, they just hop on without a VPN. But the thing is, you can't play any YouTube videos. And if you want to attend music events, you can't hear any music. And for that, you need a VPN. And yes, there's a huge Chinese community in VRChat. I would say as many as Japanese players. There is a Chinese bar. where I was always there for the first year because, well, when you don't know anybody, you can enter like a public place. Everybody who don't have a friend will gather there. So you try to talk to people. And most of the time I was asking people, can you play games with me? Because there's horror worlds I would love to discover, but I can't do it alone. And I think right now there's events by Chinese community too, but I don't really attend. I don't know if I can say that, but I think the cultural there sometimes is a bit toxic. I would say it's same for Japanese community and the US community too. But when you dive too deep into community, you will see the dark side of it.
[00:09:29.801] Kent Bye: And so in the architect cross realities film that you've filmed within VRChat, you are going into sections of the Japanese community. And during the Q&A, you were talking around how it sounds like you had like a live translator to go and explore. And it seems like that, you know, there is quite a big language barrier there. between Japanese and English, Chinese and Japanese potentially. And so just curious what your strategy or approach was, or what was the catalyst for you to start to go and cover and document some of these parts of virtual culture within the Japanese community?
[00:10:03.120] Jiyue Human: Well, speaking of attending events, I don't really talk. I just enjoy the music. So it's no problem. And while for filming, we usually talk on Discord. I test him in English, but he's going to translate it using AI to Japanese. Even though there is a language barrier, but I think he's very good at understanding people. He tries so hard to understand me. And I would say he understands 100% what I want. So we had a little chat before we hop on. And in VR, we had no problem communicating. Actually, he speaks English. When he has to describe architectural things, he will switch to Japanese. And the live interpreter, Gentagawa, he's going to help us communicate. I don't really feel there is a barrier, actually, if there is enough communication beforehand.
[00:11:11.328] Kent Bye: So you'll communicate on discord and then he'll do some live translations with AI to be able to then understand what you mean. And then by the time you're in VR, you already have enough context to be able to, to work your way through. Uh, he sounds like he understands some English. Do you understand any Japanese at all? Or is that something that you rely upon more of the translator?
[00:11:30.311] Jiyue Human: I had, I have some Japanese vocabularies, but very little. Yeah. Sometimes I can speak it a bit. Yeah.
[00:11:39.440] Kent Bye: Okay. Well, some of the topics of this film are looking at these themes of mixed reality and architecture. And Oji-chan seems to be somebody who's really coming from this architectural background, but also doing these really interesting experiments through either... doing photogrammetry of his rooms and creating like a chimera house of lots of different of his friends, but like kind of an amalgamation of everybody's personal workspaces that then you can walk through this singular architectural home to get a chance to look around people's personal spaces and how that personal space becomes an expression of identity based upon the books or other artifacts that you have. in your room. And so it seems like a really intriguing idea that these communities would be pulling together and sharing these scans of their personal spaces, but doing it in the context that they can kind of hang out with their friends. So just curious if that was the catalyst to start this film, or if there's other things that you saw that made you want to start to document this type of blending of the physical reality with virtual culture.
[00:12:47.281] Jiyue Human: Well, actually, at the beginning, I wasn't planning to shoot a documentary. I just wanted to shoot a video about Quest 3, about the color pass-through. And Oji-chan is the first person I know in VRChat who did some experiment, and he posted on Twitter. And that caught my attention. And, you know, at that time, everybody is in green in VRChat, so I can just join them. I joined Wu Jijiang several times. I find him in the Kyoto room, and he showed me, you know, with his paper mask in his computer screen, the virtual computer screen, which amazed me a lot.
[00:13:31.721] Kent Bye: Just to jump in to elaborate on that paper mask, because he's got a very distinct avatar in VRChat, and he basically recreated his avatar face with a paper mask that he could wear and shoot live video, and he would have his hands, that's like his real hand, but his... face is covered with his paper mask. So it gives us illusion of like that he's kind of blending and blurring of his virtual avatar identity, but having his physical reality, being able to have this kind of mixed reality, but have that beamed into a VR chat world. That was a really interesting moment as well as how closely he's able to mimic his virtual identity representation, but still have it in real time, almost like a VTuber, like a hybrid VTuber where he's hiding his identity with a mask, but able to communicate in real time with his body.
[00:14:19.912] Jiyue Human: Yeah. And at that time he was right there in his real life Kyoto room. So on the background, we will see, we will know, understand that. Yeah. And the other time he was in the Chimera shared house and I find it very interesting. I visit every room. and actually he invited me to scan my room too because his idea is to have not only rooms in japan but rooms in other parts of the world and he can connect it in vr but i i never did it because my room is a mess and i'm a bit shy to show it but i actually i would love to i'll try to do it in in the summer and i would love to join the camera share house
[00:15:10.267] Kent Bye: Yeah, there was some other really interesting UI prototypes where you're able to scan through a number of different books and then click a button and then it would take books on a bookshelf and then basically like put them all laid out into a virtual space so that then you could see the front covers of those books. And so it seemed like, you know, one of the key things of being able to do a photogram which you scan of your room would be like, okay, what books do you have? What kind of things are you interested in reading? And having at least some way of taking it something where you're just looking at a photogrammetry scan of a bookshelf, you're only seeing like the spine, but to have other interfaces where you're able to actually potentially scan the entirety of the book in the front and the back so that you could see all that laid out in a virtual space and kind of like these new UI to explore a bookshelf. So you showed some clips of that. Is that something that OG Chan was just doing as an experiment? Or is this something that he was also trying to find ways of use his architectural background to expand out a physical location, but to kind of do it with the affordances of virtual space? So yeah, just curious to hear a little bit more context around some of those prototype clips that was included within your film.
[00:16:21.806] Jiyue Human: Well, as I understand, that bookshelf is developed for Apple Vision Pro with his colleagues. I wish OJJ will be here explaining his idea, but I will say how I understand it. I think his job is, you know, part of his job is to, you know, just work for a startup. But the other part, he has his freedom to develop anything that interests him. And I noticed that he always collaborates with people The same colleague who's a developer writing codes for him. And the idea why he, uh, the reason why he, he builds the demo of a bookshelf is because, you know, a bookshelf in real life, you know, books in real life is super heavy. So he's trying to make it lighter to, to make everything in a headset.
[00:17:20.482] Kent Bye: Hmm. Yeah. And there's some discussion there around virtual architecture. And you mentioned an architect named John Haydeck, who's an architect who presumably was doing a lot of virtual architecture. I've done a number of different interviews with architects. And this whole idea of virtual architecture would be, or a paper architect who would be just drawing things on paper, but not actually building the buildings, but to just kind of explore concepts and ideas. And so Just curious if that was something that was inspiring to OG Chen to look into these different types of virtual architects, because he's coming from an architectural background and he's now made this transition from doing architecture into building XR experiences. But there's an existing lineage of these other kind of virtual architects or paper architects. So yeah, just to hear any kind of elaboration on that concept.
[00:18:05.526] Jiyue Human: Yeah, Oh Ji Chang, he did a research in John Hedek and his ideas for his bachelor degree. Actually, I didn't ask him really detailed stuff about that, but I kind of feel that he got the idea before he knows there is something like VR. I had the same experience. I remember I shot a film. I record something. I ask an actor and I record something with her in the Paris Metro. And I record something else in the aquarium. And I blend those two images in the same frame. And so showing as if... She is swimming in the metro station. And at that time, I had no idea what AR is. But I would say I really like the idea. I want to develop more about it. I guess Ou Zijian felt the same way. I mean, I really have to ask him more about that. I think he discovered VRChat also during COVID. And there is one year he quit his job and he stays in Kyoto, you know, playing and developing his worlds in VRChat probably every day. Yeah. I'm sorry. I don't know too much about it.
[00:19:40.691] Kent Bye: Yeah, that's fine. I think the larger point is just that there's a lineage of architects and other thinkers that predates virtual reality in a lot of ways that have been thinking around using architecture and paper architecture as a way of exploring concepts that are not bound by space and time, let's say. But there are, I think, a lot of really interesting like mixed reality type of experiments that Oji-chan is working on in terms of this club, this dance club in Kyoto and creating like a one-to-one translation of this very famous Kyoto club and Kyoto Metro club that had... like a whole like 30 to 40 years old. So it's one of the oldest clubs in Japan, but also having screens with VR chat. And so having a digital twin of that club in VR, but having people in VR watching like a DJ performance and that there was this really interesting moment where, um, VRChat avatars were able to send out emojis that span out into physical space, but yet the people who were watching weren't able to send emojis back. And so having a QR code that allowed the virtual camera to send back these emojis back into the VRChat world So just kind of like this really interesting way that the audiences were interfacing with each other. I think in Japan, they probably have a lot more of just like the general public that is aware of VR and aware of VR chat. And so it seems to be with the virtual market and VCAT that there are these other mixed reality events that are happening in Japan that is blending both this virtual world and the physical reality together. But there seemed to be within the Japanese culture, like an acceptance or an awareness of the kind of these two worlds colliding and embracing of these two worlds coming together. So I'd love to hear some of your thoughts on this mixed reality club and some of your experiences or thoughts and reflections on some of these different trends in Japanese culture with mixed reality.
[00:21:30.919] Jiyue Human: Well, actually, I don't think there's many Japanese clubs using mixed realities. I know a few, but which is very simple. It's way simpler than Kyoto Metal. It's just when the DJ, they DJed. They can see their own hands in real life because they have a square that shows the real life and the other part is in VR. That's quite common. But other than that, nothing special. I know two UK-based club world. They have similar mixed reality stuff as Ojiichan's Tokyo Room. like they have the green screen in VR chat you can enable. So when you enable it in your headset in virtual desktop, You know, you can use the chroma key to select the green part. So you delete the VRChat world, but you keep those VRChat players there. So they will be like in your real room, in your room in real life. That's how I know. Actually, it's a good question why there's no more co-ops doing this. The only club I know is OG John's Club.
[00:22:51.658] Kent Bye: And I know virtual market VCAT has like a physical exhibition where they have some mixed reality components. Sometimes they'll be walking around with like monitors where you can interact with some of these different virtual characters. So I know they've been doing some of that, but... There's also in your film, your show, when your translator is doing a performance, he's in VR chat, but it's being beamed into the actual physical club. So you have another way, which you have the DJ scene where you have all these DJs from around the world to play these different events. But this is an instance where someone's in VR chat playing a set, but that set is also being beamed out into the physical club, which I thought was a really interesting thing. And he's got a camera on his avatar. So you see a screen of him doing all the DJ stuff. But yeah, that was also kind of an interesting way which these two different realities are playing together.
[00:23:40.357] Jiyue Human: And they also did the opposite way. They have that real life live stream in the VR chat screen. So the VR chat players, they can see what happened right now in the real life club.
[00:23:53.482] Kent Bye: And speaking of these different performances and clubs, this year at Raindance Immersive, there was quite a lot of the live musical performances. I think all of them are Japanese-based in terms of the different types of innovation that's happening there. Fangs told me that one of the things that Japan has is the Yamaha Sync to be able to do live performance. And so you have a lot more experimentation with... live music, people playing together, people playing jazz. So I'm curious, as you're going to these different music events, what type of things are you exploring? Is it the same type of things that are featured at rain dance? Or maybe just give me a sense of what type of different things you're discovering within the music scene there in Japan?
[00:24:31.383] Jiyue Human: There's DJ events. There's live singing events. Actually, there's a lot of live singing events. And there's live houses. There's a live house called Awake. I think it's very famous in the Japanese community. I was there once. in 2021 for the first time and actually i'm a big fan of a japanese band called johnny henry they're very active in vr chat they're a virtual band but i think they had a debut real life performance last year or the year before last year yeah there's a lot of bangs And there are also different kind of events, which is music related, but I won't say it's a show or it's a performance. For example, I've been to an event called Wanderlust. It's a world hopping event, but with live DJing. And they ask you to join the Discord server, and the music is going to be live streamed there. And so in VRChat, there's no music. And they show you five or six worlds in an event. And the music changes when you switch to different events. Actually, I think it's kind of tailored for different worlds. Yeah.
[00:25:56.857] Kent Bye: Why is it streamed on Discord? Is that so that people can jump around between different worlds and not have the music interrupted? Or what's the reason why? I think so. Yeah.
[00:26:04.810] Jiyue Human: Because they want it to be continuously. Even though you're loading a world, there is still music.
[00:26:10.619] Kent Bye: OK. Yeah, that was one of the things I appreciated around the way that you were doing your documentary was that you were including some of these little interstitial moments of kind of documenting what it's like to kind of jump into VRChat, starting even from the very first scene of your desktop. And you're documenting the larger context of VRChat as a platform. And so just curious to hear some of your thoughts in terms of how you wanted to structure some of that in terms of including yourself you mentioned agnes varda as a french new wave director that you were influenced by who's including herself within the context of the film so yeah just curious to hear a little bit more around like the decisions of the style of how you were going to shoot this and include all these kind of interstitial aspects of vr chat as a platform
[00:26:57.386] Jiyue Human: Well, I would say I have a second life in VRChat. Well, Oji-chan mentioned in the Q&A session that he doesn't separate his virtual life with his real life. But to me, it's a bit different. I don't really separate either. But I would say my virtual life is very different than my real life. I think it's because of my avatar, because she has a way younger looking than I am. She's a teenager, I would say. So the way I act in VR, it's a bit different than the way I react in real life. And because of the different way of reacting, I got to meet different people, very, very different than the people I meet in real life. I meet friends way younger than me. So every time I hop on VRChat, I would say I was entering an alternative reality. And I would say I was like a protagonist in a science fiction film, like in Ready Player One. Yeah, sometimes I was dreaming if there is a world I need to save with my friends, like in Ready Player One.
[00:28:18.635] Kent Bye: Nice. And so the way that you're shooting it as well is that you're, you're taking a lot of like first person camera perspectives and kind of blending that with some like third person shots, but, you know, kind of also trying to figure out unique ways of showing some of the different virtual culture from sometimes first person perspective, sometimes, you know, from more of a, you know, static camera that shows you with other people interacting in these different worlds. And so that's, Just curious to hear a little bit more around some of those decisions for how you were going to shoot some of these different scenes.
[00:28:50.758] Jiyue Human: Well, at the beginning, I wasn't planning to use the POV, first person. But because before every shoot, I asked Ujijiang and Gentagawa, the live interpreter, to record everything in first person. That's for sound, actually. because there is this distance between us. So on my side, the voice of them was not that clear, was not good enough for documentary. So I asked them to record everything. And when I was checking the footage, I find those POVs so interesting. It's way interesting than a fixed close-up by the VRChat camera. So I was like, why not include it? And it really tells how we see the world in VRChat. It's everyone's perspective.
[00:29:46.468] Kent Bye: Yeah. And it's kind of an interesting mix of genre because you are, and I don't know if there are, let's say like scripted parts, or at least there's recreations. It seems like there's stop motion. There's a lot of different types of techniques that you're using that the course of this piece. And so just curious to hear a little bit more around the styles or inspirations that you were drawing upon to have these different either reconstructed moments or stuff that's shot. Yeah. in a way that's captured live. There did seem to be some scenes that were like, okay, there's definitely like some planning out or at least some kind of more poetic interpretations of, you know, just you walking down into the club as an example and having kind of like a stutter stop motion. So it's just curious to hear some of the different inspirations for different genres or, you know, the different styles between the fiction and nonfiction that you were kind of playing with to put this piece together.
[00:30:39.113] Jiyue Human: Well, as I said, it's a project that's not perfectly planned. I just had the idea one day, oh, I want to interview Oh Ji Chang and attest him on Discord. And he's like, oh, okay, let's do it tomorrow, something like that. So I have no time to plan a shortlist. That's why I record everything in third person. So when I was editing the film, I felt, oh, it's so boring to just having three characters talking in the frame. And I got to show something else to explain better what Oh Ji-Jung was saying. And I think the advantage of shooting in VRChat is you can hop on whenever you want. You can stay in the location and observe and think everything. And you have freedom to try. There's no time limit and you don't have to ask the permission of someone else. So I spent hours and hours in VRChat trying new stuff. And that's how I got the idea of the stop motion.
[00:31:49.014] Kent Bye: Nice. I know you showed it at Raindance Immersive. Are you planning on showing it on the festival circuit? Or are you going to be launching it on YouTube here anytime soon?
[00:32:00.763] Jiyue Human: Yeah, I do want to submit to different festivals.
[00:32:05.146] Kent Bye: Okay, so probably be a while before folks will be able to watch it.
[00:32:09.204] Jiyue Human: Yeah, yeah. I would say I don't have plan to publish it on YouTube this year.
[00:32:14.970] Kent Bye: Okay.
[00:32:16.231] Jiyue Human: But I would love to maybe have more screenings in VRChat. Actually, I really want to show it with Japanese subtitles to the Japanese community because I really need feedback from different people.
[00:32:32.708] Kent Bye: Yeah, one of the things that I noticed watching the credits of how many people were credited with helping to do the different translations, but also during the Q&A at Raindance, seems like you had quite a team to do both the Chinese, Japanese, and English subtitles. So just to hear a little bit more around pulling in other help to make all these different translations for different languages.
[00:32:53.157] Jiyue Human: Yeah, the first part of the documentary was shot in 2023. So at that time, the crew was very small. I would say just three of us, Oji-chan, Gentakawa, and myself. So I was the one subtitling in English, and Oji-chan helped me with the Japanese ones. And there is a Chinese one. It's based on the English ones that I did. But actually, this year when Potato, she joined the team, she corrects a lot of mistakes. Because Oji-chan, he typed everything in Japanese. And I just used Google Translate to translate it into English and maybe have little touches on. on the sentences. And potato, she find a lot of mistakes because of cultural difference. And actually she taught me some Japanese cultures, why they say that and what does it really mean? It doesn't mean as it written down, it means something else. because she speaks English very well. So she also typed the English translation for me. And I would translate it into Chinese based on the English version. And actually, I would love to say that It's my daily life in VR chat. Like translate, translate. Like people help you to translate and you help people to translate. And there's misunderstandings all the time. Sometimes it's funny. Sometimes it's bitter and sour.
[00:34:28.390] Kent Bye: Yeah, I was just going to say that I see a lot of people using these automatic translations with chat box. And you're doing a documentary film where you have lots of time to go back and double check, but there's a lot of these real-time translation that is happening for people to overcome some of these language barriers. And I think it just speaks to how a lot of these automatic translation systems that are out there are not perfect. And so there's obviously going to be lots of mistranslations and misunderstandings but i'd love to hear any of your thoughts and reflections on the challenges of the translation and what that is opening up but also the loss of meaning or context when there's mistranslations well i learned my lesson in shooting this film especially in translating for the subtitles i don't think the translation tool will work very well
[00:35:19.119] Jiyue Human: I don't think language is something like mathematics. You don't understand people by the words that translate by AI over your head, but you have to understand their culture and you have to understand their emotion. And sometimes, for example, between the conversation I have with OJJ, sometimes I didn't understand him by what he said, but by the feeling I have from him, by his maybe body languages. And it's funny that sometimes he didn't really finish his sentence and I understand it. So sometimes it's not an issue of language. But I don't know how to say it. But that's how I feel in VRChat, that if you really want to understand people, maybe there is another way, even there is a language barrier.
[00:36:21.417] Kent Bye: Yeah, well, let's have a few questions around Sandbox Immersive in terms of, you know, I know that there was a number of different editions of Sandbox Immersive leading up to the pandemic and then the pandemic happened and took a number of years off. And so just curious if you were able to come back since the pandemic and what's happening with Sandbox Immersive.
[00:36:40.511] Jiyue Human: Yeah, Sandbox is coming back this year. It will be October.
[00:36:45.395] Kent Bye: Nice. And so the last one, the last edition was in 2019 then?
[00:36:51.072] Jiyue Human: No, we had one in 2021. But at the time, we don't have any international guests, you know, because it's still during COVID. But we invite a lot of Chinese guests. It's a little bit different than 2018, 2019. And actually, I attended in my avatar in the panel about social VR.
[00:37:14.650] Kent Bye: Okay. And so was it all virtual within 2021? Or did you actually meet physically for Sandbox Immersive?
[00:37:21.294] Jiyue Human: The festival was totally physical, but the panel I did, I attended virtually.
[00:37:28.120] Kent Bye: Gotcha. Okay. And yeah, so is there anything else you can share in terms of what you're hoping to do? Because there's not a lot of other VR festivals that are happening in China. I know there are actually some other ones, but in terms of looking at storytelling and immersive story, it seems like Sandbox Immersive is pretty unique in terms of bringing together both the Chinese immersive storytellers, but also like curating some of the best of experiences that you and Eddie, I run into all the time on the film festival circuit, whether Venice immersive or South by Southwest, many of the different events. I think I met first met Eddie back at Sundance 2017 or 2018. So yeah, I'd love to hear any plans that you have for the next edition coming up here in October.
[00:38:12.430] Jiyue Human: Speaking of XR festivals in China, actually there's XR sections of Beijing Film Festival and Shanghai Film Festival. And indeed, Sandbox is the only one which is dedicated to XR only. And for this year, we're going to do something a little bit different. We're going to collaborate with a music festival in the same venue. And actually, Eddie, he collaborated with the director of the music festival back in 2021. They did a VR music experience, and they show it within the festival. And I think for this year, we're going to select less pieces But pieces with longer duration and with not just VR, but like sound installation or music installation, we would need something for the audience. Sometimes it's very hard for them to wear a VR headset all the time for every piece. So we want to curate something that a mass audience will join by their bare eyes.
[00:39:30.421] Kent Bye: Okay. Yeah, I'm seeing that as a trend in terms of these festivals picking what I would say more immersive art pieces that are installation-based that don't require a headset. And so definitely see that across Venice Immersive and South by Southwest or even with Tropica Immersive had a lot of these more immersive art pieces. So it sounds like pairing up with the music festival, you're able to kind of have the musical or other physical-based installations that are immersive art rather than just immersive storytelling. Yeah. Very cool. Well, I guess, is there anything else that you're kind of really digging into in terms of like either documenting the virtual culture or I know that you've often been traveling to different festivals to curate. So just curious to hear what other things are on your radar or other projects you might be working on.
[00:40:18.393] Jiyue Human: Yeah, I have different projects I'd love to shoot in VRChat. Actually, I want to shoot a film about my experience in COVID. At that time, I was playing different kind of games. I felt like I was traveling between different virtual worlds, not only VRChat, but games like Half- Alyx, Assassin's Creed, GTA, and Red Dead Redemption. I was playing those games with my friends in VRChat, and I saw them in different avatars in different games. For me, it's a very special experience. And at the same time, I think we all felt a little bit depressed. And it's kind of poetic at the same time. So I might shoot a film, but a stop motion one in VR chat. So this allows me to do more VFX if it's only pictures. Yeah.
[00:41:25.100] Kent Bye: Can you elaborate on what you mean by playing with your friends in VRChat? Just because a lot of these games you mentioned are single-player games that don't have any specific VRChat integration. So are you in a room streaming it, or what's it mean to play with people?
[00:41:38.944] Jiyue Human: Oh, for example, Assassin's Creed, you can play with three more players as a group. And for GTA, they have an online version that you can play with a lot of people, like in VRChat, like maybe 30, 40. And you can have your own private server or you can join the public ones.
[00:42:00.072] Kent Bye: Okay. So you had friends that you made in VRChat that you were playing these games together on their separate platforms? Yep. Okay. Okay. Well, as we start to wrap up, I'd love to hear what you think the ultimate potential of virtual reality might be and what it might be able to enable.
[00:42:17.625] Jiyue Human: Well, I would say it's still going to be very niche. Actually, I was talking to one of the audience who attended my screening. He told me he's going to shoot a film introducing VRChat to the mass audience. And my answer is yes. you'd probably not do that because people will be very defensive if they heard VRChat or social VR. Maybe show them the interesting part of it and don't really say it's VRChat or social VR. But on the other hand, I feel there's more and more people joining VRChat. The community grows very big. Even though for Chinese players, there's always new people joining. And, you know, there is a website called Bilibili, kind of like Chinese YouTube. And I saw people posting VRChat videos all the time. And there's always people commenting under that. Oh, can I hang out with you in VRChat? Because I have no friend. Can you show me how to do it? Yeah, I would say it's... I don't know, it's... The mainstream world and the world underground, they're very different. I'm kind of out of my vocabulary, I don't know.
[00:43:40.607] Kent Bye: So just to kind of recap a little bit what you're saying to see if there's anything else you want to say to wrap up that thought, but that there's kind of like the state of VRChat right now is that there's a lot of tight-knit communities and that there's a phrase called the eternal September with AOL opened up into the masses in it. when you have floods and floods and people coming in, it changes the culture. And so there's something that the people within VRChat are protective of that culture, but at the same time, it doesn't need to continue to expand and grow. If it wants to continue to exist as a platform, it has to have some level of sustainability. So it has this kind of feeling of discovering your own band, and they're still small and you love them. But if they go big and mainstream, then you might not like them as much. I don't know if that's kind of the essence of what you're saying.
[00:44:24.510] Jiyue Human: Totally the opposite. I want it to be mainstream, but I feel it's very hard. I don't want to force people to understand it. I want people to be interested, to be caught by VR. But I would say it's super hard. Like I work for a VR festival. I know how regular people react to VR. And I try to invite a lot of people to hang out in VR chat. And most of them say, yeah, why not? And nothing else. They didn't really do it. But I will say there's hope in the Japanese community. I know some of the creators, they work for real life projects because of VRChat. They work for Sanrio, Sanrio Virtual Fest. They got commissioned by cultural institutions in Japan. Yeah, I love something in the other parts of the world. I don't know what to say.
[00:45:31.360] Kent Bye: you would love to see it expand to other parts of the world. Is that what you're trying to say?
[00:45:35.175] Jiyue Human: Yep. Yep.
[00:45:37.478] Kent Bye: Okay, just one quick follow on question, which is that you mentioned Billy Billy. And in the q&a, you said that you don't consider yourself to be like a V tuber. But yet you do sometimes post clips of yourself and your virtual avatar showing different things about the chat. Just curious what type of things you're posting to your Billy Billy account and how you're relating to that as a way of spreading the word around what's happening in VR chat to like more of a Chinese community.
[00:46:04.773] Jiyue Human: There is world introductions, especially horror worlds. I record the whole process, how I play it, as a walkthrough, so people can check it out if they got stuck. And the other part is funny TikTok-like videos. As I said, I wear a teenage girl avatar, so I act kind of childish. And Actually, I think a lot of people, if they know me, it's because of that video that I was teasing desktop players. Actually, it was a joke. I have no problem with desktop players. I used to be a desktop player myself. I don't know if you know, there's a cultural in VR chat that people think full body tracking players, they are superior than players with only headsets and controllers and desktop players who doesn't have any VR gears. I was being a little bit sarcastic of this culture, but I don't think a lot of people understand it. They know me because I'm a, I'm a naughty girl who despises desktop players. Actually, I was against that. I don't like this culture.
[00:47:34.617] Kent Bye: But do you still consider yourself not a VTuber? Because it seems like you're doing other things that other people might call you a VTuber, but you don't identify as a VTuber.
[00:47:43.766] Jiyue Human: Because I don't do live streams. And I think for a VTuber, you need to do live streams at least four or five days a week.
[00:47:53.572] Kent Bye: Okay. But you're in a virtual avatar making videos of your virtual avatar, but you're doing more VR chat, horror world walkthroughs and not doing live streaming. So, okay.
[00:48:03.718] Jiyue Human: And I shot music videos too with my avatar.
[00:48:07.701] Kent Bye: Okay. Nice. And is there anything else that's left unsaid that you'd like to say to the broader immersive community?
[00:48:13.735] Jiyue Human: Yeah, I would love to add something more to virtual architecture. Actually, I think virtual architecture is something already existed way before social VR. I'd love to mention there is a group called MVRDV in the Netherlands. They did a lot of projects, which is kind of virtual. The famous one is the building for pigs. They designed a skyscraper for pigs to live in. It's definitely very conceptual. It won't be realized in real life. I would consider it as virtual architecture too. And I think the idea of architecture, of virtual architecture, is not to realize it in the real world, It's for virtual beings, actually. And thanks to social VR, we can really experience it in 3D. And I would say that's one of the reasons Wu Jijiang have a life in VRChat. He wants to realize his ideas in the virtual world, not because of he can do it in the real world, but he's tailored something for the virtual space only.
[00:49:35.092] Kent Bye: Nice. I just looked up nvrdv.com and they've got lots of different pictures.
[00:49:41.635] Jiyue Human: nvrdv.com.
[00:49:43.376] Kent Bye: Yep. And VR DV. Yes. Okay. Awesome. Well, Jai, it was great to have a chance to sit down with you and talk a little bit about your journey into VR and VR chat and looking forward for folks to have a chance to watch your film either on the film festival circuit, which is where it's going to be probably for the next year or so, and then eventually on YouTube or somewhere else if it gets picked up. Really enjoyed this exploration and documentation of virtual culture and looking at both architecture and identity and the ways that our spaces are able to communicate our identities, but also this kind of mixed reality trends that some artists in Japan were experimenting with and creating these camera houses and creating these clubs that are blending and blurring the physical reality with the virtual culture. And yeah, just really great to hear around, you know, the latest in the film festival circuits and where you're going to be taking the sandbox immersive here in the future. So yeah, it's great to be able to sit down and hear a lot more about your journey. So thanks again for joining me here today on the podcast. Thank you, Kent. Thanks again for listening to this episode of the Voices of VR podcast. And if you enjoy the podcast, then please do spread the word, tell your friends, and consider becoming a member of the Patreon. This is a supported podcast, and so I do rely upon donations from people like yourself in order to continue to bring this coverage. So you can become a member and donate today at patreon.com slash voicesofvr. Thanks for listening.