I interviewed Sen director Keisuke Itoh at Venice Immersive 2023. See more context in the rough transcript below.
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Rough Transcript
[00:00:05.452] Kent Bye: The Voices of VR Podcast. Hello, my name is Kent Bye, and welcome to the Voices of VR Podcast. It's a podcast that looks at immersive storytelling, experiential design, and the future of spatial computing. Support the podcast at patreon.com. So continuing on my series of looking at different experiences from Venice Immersive 2023, this is episode number 19 out of 35, and the first of two of looking at the context of death. So this first experience is called Sen by Keitsuke Ito. It's a piece from Japan, and it's looking at the Japanese traditional tea ceremony. This is actually a three-person social VR type of experience where you go into this installation, you sit down, and then as you go into this experience, you're in this traditional Japanese room, and then you're holding this cup. It's actually a recreation of like a 400-year-old traditional Japanese tea ceremony cup. It's got a Vive tracker attached to it and you also have a pixel watch that's put onto your wrist. So your heartbeat that is being detected and then fed into the experience through the haptics of this Vive tracker. That is, as you're moving around, you're there with two other people and you kind of go through this whole sequence of seeing this little fetus animated baby type of thing on your cup. And there's kind of a whole journey that happens where you kind of blip into this more transcendent realm and there's kind of a death and rebirth and themes of reincarnation, but it's actually very abstract piece, there's no words at all. And it's all kind of visually told. So the primary contextual domains of looking at issues of death and reincarnation, looking at transcendence and community, the center of gravity of this experience was very much this environmental storytelling, and also this sense of embodied presence, like really deeply connecting to your own heartbeat and how that's fed into the immersive experience. There's different degrees of social presence because you're there with other people and there's different moments where you can actually kind of interact with people throughout the course of the experience that they kind of blip in and out of sometimes you just see yourself and sometimes you see yourself in the context of these other people. There's also a lot of mental presence of just trying to piece together what's happening with this very abstract transcendent shader ways of visually telling the story. There's different degrees of interactivity as you're able to kind of like, you know, move around and engage with your body in this experience, but kind of interacting with other people as there's different things that are shooting at and interacting with other people. And overall, just creating this sense of emotional presence of the vibe of this mood. I think this is actually one of the experiences that was a crowd favorite. If you look at the survey that was done by XR Must as well as Andrea Lunev, where they've surveyed like 50 different folks that went to Venice Immersive, this is like number three on their list. And if you go to episode number 1,305, that'll be like the three and a half hour discussion where we kind of go in order of that list and talk about all the different immersive experiences. But this was certainly a crowd favorite and just a really strong piece. like exploring different aspects of the medium as well. One quick note about this interview is this was translated through one of the producers, Katsuochi Machiba. It's kind of an interesting interview just because there was a lot of typing in the phone and finding specific words to translate. And also at the end, they're kind of tapping into ChatGBT and having things automatically translated. And so there may be things that are lost in translation. The first half, I'm going to have the English version. I'm going to have a Japanese version in the second half. So folks who speak Japanese, they can see the full context of the conversation. And so I'm hoping that maybe through the power of artificial intelligence, maybe the transcription, I'll be able to potentially eventually at some point, maybe get another translation with some of the different stuff that's there as well, just in case some of the different things that may or may not have been translated in real time. You know, I think in a lot of ways, Keisuke is using the medium of virtual reality to be able to communicate a lot of what he's trying to say. And I think I'm able to get a really deep vibe of what he's communicating with, a series of different experiences that he's created each and every year here at Venice Immersive over the last number of years. So, that's what we're covering on today's episode of the Voices of VR podcast. So, this interview with Keisuke happened on Monday, September 4th, 2023 at Venice Immersive in Venice, Italy. So, with that, let's go ahead and dive right in.
[00:04:18.998] Keisuke Itoh: So, he is Keisuke Ito.
[00:04:27.490] Katsutoshi Machiba: He is the director for the VR. And so he used to work for the 2D animation. And after that, so he worked for the 3D animation. And so now is a VR animation, where he made the VR animation now. Yeah.
[00:04:48.396] Kent Bye: Great. And maybe you could give a bit more context as to your journey into working with virtual reality.
[00:04:57.219] Katsutoshi Machiba: Actually, at first, he started to learn from the Biennale College Cinema in Venice. He learned how to make VR contents in the Biennale College, and after that, he made the first VR content, and then he applied to the Venice immersive, and so Venice introduced that content. That is the first time, yeah.
[00:05:21.507] Kent Bye: Yeah, and so Liz and Michelle, the curators here at Venice Immersive, had said that you have had a virtual reality piece at Venice every year since the Biennale College, and so maybe you could run through some of your other experiences that you've created over the years.
[00:05:43.426] Katsutoshi Machiba: So he made, every five years, he made the content. So first one is Feather. Feather is the first content. And the second content is Beat. He used some like heartbeat, haptics. And the third one is Clap. So he used hand tracking. And the fourth is Type Man, which is he tried live performance on the VRChat. So every year he is challenging.
[00:06:13.080] Kent Bye: new technology, yeah. So what was the technology that you wanted to use this year with Sen?
[00:06:24.302] Katsutoshi Machiba: In this year, he used the t-ball cup. That t-ball cup is a very old one, so maybe that t-ball cup was made 400 years ago. And so we... Japanese museum has a scan data for the t-ball cup so we borrowed that data and then so we made a 3d printer and so we made a kind of 400 years cup for the 3d model and then so user hold that cup and then so that is one point the two point is that so we use some google pixel watch that device read the user's heartbeat And so that data sent to the server, and from server to the teacup. So teacup is a little bit shaking, like heartbeat. So user feel the heartbeat by themselves. So that is his important point, yeah.
[00:07:26.532] Kent Bye: Can you talk about why you wanted to look at the Japanese tea ceremony as a part of this story, this year for Sen, and explain the Japanese tea ceremony a little bit?
[00:07:44.078] Katsutoshi Machiba: Actually, he is very interested in Zen, and he wanted to talk about Zen for this content. Zen and tea ceremonies are very similar, very close to the contents, and so he selected this theme.
[00:08:06.492] Kent Bye: And where do you start when you start to make an experience like this, when you're designing and developing this experience? With drawings, with animation, with prototypes, so how do you start to design this experience? Yeah, like a story or like, yeah, what's his design process?
[00:08:31.333] Katsutoshi Machiba: First, he searched the Japanese traditional tea ceremony and also he visited some Japanese traditional temple or like a tea ceremony's location. And after that, he went to the LARC museum. They made some Japanese traditional teacups. And so he interviewed to the LARC museum and he collected the information for the many tea information from the tea museum. That is the first time. And the second is he get information from the LARC museum and so at first he I think Japanese tea ceremony sees only himself, only his feeling, only. Like museum said, so not only that, so he found some good point. So tea ceremony is not only sees them, so user can't connect with each other. like not only one person so through the tea ceremony so user can connect to each other and communicate with each other in the tea ceremony.
[00:09:53.875] Kent Bye: So it sounds like the social dynamics of having three people at the same time doing the experience. Sometimes when I was in the experience, I was only able to see what I was doing, but other times I was able to see what the two other people were doing. And so there's a going back and forth between one person versus having a group experience. So a solo versus a group experience. So love to hear about that. Switching back and forth between those two.
[00:10:22.034] Katsutoshi Machiba: Actually, 400 years ago, tea ceremony took place in a dark room. So maybe like a guest can't see anything, not too much, can't see not too much. So maybe guest watch that teacup only the shadow. So that meaning is, so you know, not only the visual, we can feeling and some feeling and so we can see the another thing that is very important for the tea ceremony. So only the visual, so feeling and so not visualize item, so we can feel the something. It's a very important thing.
[00:11:14.700] Kent Bye: Yeah, and in the very beginning of this experience, we're introduced to a little character that's inside of the bowl who ends up standing on top of the edge and becomes a character that we are with throughout the course of this piece. So I'd love to have you tell me a little bit about the little animated character that we start this journey of the tea ceremony with.
[00:11:46.303] Katsutoshi Machiba: So that character, he wanted to make some fetus. Fetus? Fetus.
[00:11:53.884] Kent Bye: Fetus.
[00:11:54.384] Katsutoshi Machiba: Yeah, like a fetus. So at first, that character born from the teacup. And so he learned nature and then another presence. And he learned many things from that room. And then, so, after that, so, story is ending, but this is not ending, so we can, like, so, continue to the life, like reincarnation.
[00:12:25.918] Kent Bye: It's a reincarnation?
[00:12:27.019] Katsutoshi Machiba: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So he really creates the reincarnation from that character, yeah.
[00:12:33.585] Kent Bye: Okay, so it's a reincarnation, so who was that character before? Since it's a past life, where was he coming from?
[00:12:43.845] Katsutoshi Machiba: That character is like a spiritual presence. Actually, the character's name, Sen, is born from the user's feelings and also the user's core. part of core and so he is like a actually so visualize but he can sometimes visualize but sometimes you know melt to the environment like a like a cosmos in the teacup yeah okay so like a cosmos in a teacup
[00:13:28.883] Kent Bye: I feel like in this journey you start in a room but then everything goes dark and you start to use a lot of lines and trying to go beyond space and time. where you're using a lot of abstractions to take us on a journey. And I'm wondering if you could describe the journey that you're trying to take the viewer on. So where do you want to take the user as you go through this series of these lines from another place?
[00:14:01.137] Katsutoshi Machiba: So you mean the last scene?
[00:14:03.398] Kent Bye: No, just the... there's like a lot of shader effects throughout. Yeah. So, but yeah, just it's taking the user on a journey. So I'm just wondering how he thinks about the beginning, middle, and end of that journey.
[00:14:27.275] Katsutoshi Machiba: Actually, the user and the character, Sen, connect like an umbilical cord.
[00:14:35.061] Kent Bye: The umbilical cord?
[00:14:36.182] Katsutoshi Machiba: Yeah, umbilical cord. And so, like, you know, always connect to Sen. And so, at first, he learns nature and he knows another presence and he communicates with nature and the presence, another presence. And so he does a lot of experience in this world. But suddenly, that cut is a code. And so user and character is unconnected. And so like a death, like a kind of death. So unconnected, so character is a user. And so after that, so one more bone from the teacup. before the bone cut the character and so sand fall on the teabowl cup and so sand melts the teabowl like a cosmos and after that so bone from the teacup again and so and so he started to the so live in the tea room like so he always think about the reincarnation.
[00:15:49.887] Kent Bye: So he's always thinking about reincarnation as you go through the experience. He's being born and dying and being born and dying again throughout that. Okay. So there's a moment where you're holding the cup and there's little drops that are shooting out. And so I'm wondering if you could talk about this moments where you're kind of shooting out these little drops of water and they're kind of landing and you're doing it by yourself and then you eventually do it with the other people as well. So your question is... Just to talk about a little bit, elaborate on that moment.
[00:16:28.614] Katsutoshi Machiba: user and we are part of the cosmos and then so we affect so we we affect with the cosmos and then so that scene is uh so water is jumping to the like a pond so that that ripple is uh you know uh affects the other user and also other environment so we can connect the cosmos and then so he thinks about We are part of the cosmos Yeah, so it's a we're shooting out and we're influencing and that there's ripples of our impact and they're kind of like impacting each other
[00:17:13.138] Kent Bye: And for me, I really loved the heartbeat throughout the entirety of the experience of being able to tie my own heartbeat into the haptics of the cup and felt that it did an amazing job of connecting me to a deeper rhythm of the piece, but the rhythm was coming from my body. So I'd love to have you expand on integrating the heartbeat into this experience.
[00:17:45.892] Katsutoshi Machiba: So that heartbeat meaning is so he think we have to see that by ourselves. It's important so our heartbeat always beating but in the contents suddenly cut off the code and so heartbeat is a stop. So maybe some user is shocking, but he want user know, so please think yourself. So do the important, think about myself, it's important thing, yeah. So if user knows his heartbeat, but they think about their important thing, do you understand that? So he want user know that. In the cosmos, user meet the beat, heartbeat again. So it's so important that you have the heartbeat. And he want user to know about that.
[00:19:07.662] Kent Bye: Okay and in the installation here at Venice you have people take off their shoes and then they sit down in an installation that is designed like a traditional Japanese tea ceremony. With all the VR technology and the cup with the Vive tracker, but I'd love to have you expand on the installation that you have here at Venice to have people experience this and what you were trying to do with creating a space for people to enter into to experience Sen.
[00:19:47.852] Katsutoshi Machiba: So actually, he wanted to make an installation like a... At first, Communicate is face-to-face, face-to-face, and so, you know, like that. But in the installation, he wanted to connect the spirits, not face-to-face. So he wanted to connect the spiritual feeling. And so he did make some dark room and so, you know, it's very, can see the visual, not too much. So very dark room. And so he want to use a feels like a spiritual things, like a feeling.
[00:20:32.379] Kent Bye: Were there any experiences that you used as an inspiration designing the look and feel of the experience that you were creating?
[00:20:41.393] Katsutoshi Machiba: So you mean before his contents?
[00:20:44.235] Kent Bye: Yeah, if there's any things that he watched or experienced or any other film or anything else that he's looking to for design inspiration for this piece.
[00:20:52.899] Katsutoshi Machiba: Other content? Yeah. His favorite director is Hayao Miyazaki from Ghibli. He creates Japanese culture and Japanese spirits. He respects Hayao Miyazaki. Sometimes his imagination comes from Hayao Miyazaki's content.
[00:21:23.118] Kent Bye: So in terms of the music and the sound design, if you could talk a bit about the music in the piece as well as the different sound effects that you have in this piece. Just to explain what he wanted to do and achieve with the music and the sound design.
[00:21:44.555] Katsutoshi Machiba: In this time, he wanted to use the sound from the Sagawa Museum that is near Kyoto. So he recorded real sound from the Sagawa Museum. In the Sagawa Museum, there are some Japanese traditional rooms, Japanese tea rooms in the Sagawa Museum. That tearoom was made by the Lack House. Mr. Lack designed that tearoom. It was very silent, so he liked that tearoom. He designed the sound in the tearoom. He recorded all of the sound of the detail. And then also he recorded the sound, so when the master make a tea, tea sound, and also the tea master move to there, so sounds like a sliding feet, sliding feet sound, so during the tea ceremony sound, so all sound, so he recorded the sound, and then he use, he put this project, yeah.
[00:23:01.473] Kent Bye: What are you hoping that audience members take away from this experience?
[00:23:11.368] Katsutoshi Machiba: Actually, so he want to use, to know, to connect with other presence, other user. And then so, it's important thing, so he want user to respect themselves. Yeah. And then so, please reconfirm the preciousness of life.
[00:23:33.838] Kent Bye: Please reconfirm the preciousness of life.
[00:23:36.700] Katsutoshi Machiba: something like that, so he wanted to do that and he really wanted to use us to feel like that thing.
[00:23:44.327] Kent Bye: So yeah, just a little translation that says, please reconfirm the preciousness of life. And finally, what do you think is the ultimate potential of virtual reality and immersive storytelling and what that might be able to enable?
[00:24:03.759] Katsutoshi Machiba: You mean the next projector?
[00:24:05.481] Kent Bye: No, just the ultimate potential of what the medium of virtual reality can achieve.
[00:24:12.757] Katsutoshi Machiba: Actually, every time he creates a character, he wants to use the interactive to the character. But now he's programming the character, so actually not naturally, so maybe he wants to use the AI So maybe character is more free and in near future, almost people communicate with that character. So he really want to do the VR, AR, maybe XR will be that thing. So maybe many user can connect with the character.
[00:25:05.471] Kent Bye: In this interview I'm speaking English and you're speaking Japanese and in the medium of virtual reality you're able to speak and communicate without language and so I'd love to hear any reflections of what's it like for you to use virtual reality as a way of communicating what you want to say.
[00:25:32.355] Katsutoshi Machiba: Actually, so he speak English not well, and then so he understand the communication is very difficult. But if VR is, you know, if many such like people use VR, so maybe easy to communicate with each other. So he really want to do that in near the future, yeah. Also, he want some user, like a handicap user, maybe so XR is maybe support to that people. So maybe XR more improve the device and so he want device to support to the handicapped people.
[00:26:27.191] Kent Bye: Is there anything else that's left unsaid that you would like to say to the broader immersive community?
[00:26:40.162] Katsutoshi Machiba: So XR is, you know, from now, just start. So there are many possibility for the XR. And then so new creator want to challenge to the more new project. Maybe Keisuke also want to challenge the new project. So, yeah, he is always challenging. So from the first contest to the, in this year's contest, very different technology he use, yeah. So he want to challenging. So XR is a completely untapped field. I want people to take expressions that no one has ever seen before without being confined to past work. I will also do my best.
[00:27:32.643] Kent Bye: Awesome. Well, thank you so much for joining me. I really loved Sen. I thought it was really beautiful, poetic, lyrical piece. And yeah, just really enjoyed the heartbeat and that you took me to another place. And I felt a deep resonance with your piece. So thank you.
[00:27:50.654] Keisuke Itoh: Thank you very much.
[00:27:52.933] Kent Bye: All right, so why don't you go ahead and introduce yourself and tell me a bit about what you do in the realm of virtual reality.
[00:27:59.498] Katsutoshi Machiba: I'm Keisuke Ito. I'm the director of VR animation. I started making VR animation five years ago.
[00:28:20.760] Keisuke Itoh: Before that, I was making screen CG animation. Five years ago, I wanted to make an interactive work, so I started to think VR was an interesting expression.
[00:28:39.578] Kent Bye: Great, and maybe you could give a bit more context as to your journey into working with virtual reality.
[00:28:45.878] Katsutoshi Machiba: Can you tell us more about your VR experience? I first made my VR animation at the Viennese Art College. I made my first VR animation at the Viennese Art College.
[00:28:55.723] Keisuke Itoh: I was selected for the Viennese Art College Selection at the Venice International Film Festival.
[00:29:13.195] Kent Bye: Yeah, and so Liz and Michelle, the curators here at Venice Immersive...
[00:29:34.693] Keisuke Itoh: Every year, after Feather, there is a game called Beat. I wanted to try a new type of interaction. For Beat, I use a device that reproduces the heartbeat. I made a game called C.L.A.P. and used hand tracking. The next game I made is called Type Man. I used VRChat to express myself. I've been trying a lot of different ways to express my interactions. What kind of technology are you using this year? The biggest thing this year This is a model of a traditional teapot that has been passed down from 400 years ago in Sado, Japan. You can also use the Google Pixel Watch to record your heartbeats and feel the heartbeats of the teapot as the teapot beats.
[00:31:00.194] Katsutoshi Machiba: Why did you choose the tea theme? Could you tell us about the tea theme?
[00:31:14.232] Keisuke Itoh: And where do you start when you start to make an experience like this?
[00:31:41.815] Katsutoshi Machiba: I would like to know how the production process went. First of all, I went to visit a traditional tea room in Kyoto.
[00:31:49.359] Keisuke Itoh: I also went to see a lot of rakucha-wan. It's a tradition that has been going on for 400 years. I met the 15th generation of the Raku family, and we talked directly. I learned about Sado. As a result, it resonated with me. I thought that tea ceremony was a way to communicate with oneself. However, in tea ceremony, the connection between people is important. So it sounds like the social dynamics of having three people at the same time...
[00:33:08.962] Katsutoshi Machiba: During the experience, there was a moment when I was alone, and there was a moment when I could see other people. The switching was very interesting, and that's what they were doing. I think that's what they were talking about in the communication. Was there a reason to switch?
[00:33:37.371] Keisuke Itoh: 400 years ago, in Sado, There is a saying that you play in a dark situation. The reason why I play in a dark situation is because Ochanwa is dark and you can't see in the dark. There is a culture that you can't rely on your eyes. So by looking at things with a sense that you can't rely on your eyes, you can communicate with yourself. I switch Ochanwa in the VR space and express it.
[00:34:10.668] Kent Bye: Yeah, and in the very beginning of this experience, we're introduced to a little character...
[00:34:27.023] Keisuke Itoh: He is like a Taiji born from an experienced person. In the story, he sees and hears various things through time and space. It's difficult, isn't it?
[00:35:07.850] Kent Bye: OK, so it's a reincarnation. So who was that character before? Since it's a past life, where was he coming from?
[00:35:15.355] Katsutoshi Machiba: Where did that character come from?
[00:35:18.597] Keisuke Itoh: He was born from the senses of the experience. He was born from the core of the experience. He is a spiritual being, and in the bowl is the universe. I think he is an existence that can be absorbed into the universe, return to the individual, and come and go. I see. That's difficult.
[00:36:11.211] Kent Bye: So, can you tell us about the user journey?
[00:36:39.006] Keisuke Itoh: The characters and the players are connected by the Hesono. Through the Hesono, you can connect with other players and communicate with them. So there's a moment where you're holding the cup and there's little drops that are shooting
[00:37:32.305] Katsutoshi Machiba: There is a scene where the cup comes out of the cup in the black and white scene. I wanted to tell you that there was such a scene. It comes out of me, and there was a scene where drops came out of other users.
[00:37:49.892] Keisuke Itoh: We are a part of the universe. We are a part of the universe. We are a part of the universe. We are a part of the universe. We are a part of the universe. We are a part of the universe. We are a part of the universe. We are a part of the universe. We are a part of the universe. We are a part of the universe. We are a part of the universe. We are a part of the universe. We are a part of the universe. We are a part of the universe. We are a part of the universe. We are a part of the universe. We are a part of the universe. We are a part of the universe. We are a part of the universe. We are a part of the universe. We are a part of the universe. We are a part of the universe. We are a part of the universe. We are a part of the universe. We are a part of the universe. We are a part of the universe. We are a part of the universe. We are a part of the universe.
[00:38:23.832] Kent Bye: For me, I really loved the heartbeat throughout the entirety of the experience of being able to tie...
[00:38:51.733] Keisuke Itoh: Heartbeat is an act of looking at yourself. I use heartbeats to feel the presence of my life. We constantly feel the heartbeat of the heart, but there are moments when the heartbeat stops. I would like them to feel the shock of their heart stopping. I would like them to feel the shock of their heart stopping. I would like them to feel the shock of their heart stopping. In the installation here at Venice, you have people take off their shoes and then they sit down and...
[00:40:12.741] Katsutoshi Machiba: When I was working on the installation, I made a booth and brought tatami mats and teapots. I wanted to express what I wanted to express in the installation.
[00:40:36.010] Keisuke Itoh: At the beginning of the installation, each of us had to put our faces together, but the lines were meant to communicate in the spirit of the game. I wanted to show the same thing in the Japanese tea room space. I respect the tea room space very much, so I wanted to recreate it in this content.
[00:41:07.158] Kent Bye: Were there any experiences that you used as an inspiration designing the look and feel?
[00:41:22.120] Keisuke Itoh: I like the director Miyazaki Hayao of Ghibli. He draws on the Japanese tradition and the spiritual world. I think that's why I respect his work. So in terms of the music and the sound design, if you could talk a bit about
[00:41:52.870] Katsutoshi Machiba: What do you think about the music and sound design? We put a lot of effort into it.
[00:42:06.483] Keisuke Itoh: I recorded the sound, but there is a tea room built by the 15th generation of the Sagawa Art Museum. I recorded the sound there. The sound of wood, the sound of tapping, the sound of water, and other small sounds are all recorded in the tea room designed by Raku-san. The sound of making tea, the sound of rubbing your feet, and other small sounds are all included in the work.
[00:42:53.354] Kent Bye: What are you hoping that audience members take away from this experience?
[00:42:57.518] Katsutoshi Machiba: I want them to feel the connection between the players.
[00:43:02.183] Keisuke Itoh: I want them to feel the preciousness of their lives once again.
[00:43:16.557] Kent Bye: Yeah, and finally, what do you think is the ultimate potential of virtual reality and immersive storytelling, and what that might be able to enable?
[00:43:36.885] Keisuke Itoh: I mainly make works that interact with characters, but I think that the existence of characters is becoming more and more similar to that of living beings. If AI technology advances, characters may move more freely. I think that the way we can express ourselves in VR will change along with that. I hope that we will be able to have a wider range of communication with the characters.
[00:44:23.086] Katsutoshi Machiba: I can't speak English.
[00:44:43.187] Keisuke Itoh: I feel that communication is the most difficult thing. But with VR and XR technology, even without words, we can communicate. I feel that there is a great possibility. What was it? Communication is difficult. If it is XR, I feel that it is possible to communicate. I think it's a great technology that can connect with people who have disabilities or people with disabilities. I want to contribute to that development.
[00:45:30.638] Kent Bye: Is there anything else that's left unsaid that you would like to say to the broader immersive community?
[00:45:45.642] Keisuke Itoh: I would say that XR is still in its infancy. It is full of possibilities. I would like to challenge new things that no one has thought of before. I will do my best. XR is a completely unpublished work, so I don't want it to be trapped in the past. I want it to be an expression that no one has seen before. I will do my best.
[00:46:17.295] Kent Bye: Awesome. Well, thank you so much for joining me. I really loved the Sen. I thought it was a really beautiful, poetic, lyrical piece. And I just really enjoyed the heartbeat that you took me to another place. And I felt a deep resonance with your piece. So, thank you.
[00:46:35.202] Katsutoshi Machiba: Thank you very much.
[00:46:51.241] Kent Bye: Thanks for listening to this interview from Fitness Immersive 2023. You can go check out the Critics Roundtable in episode 1305 to get more breakdown in each of these different experiences. And I hope to be posting more information on my Patreon at some point. There's a lot to digest here. I'm going to be giving some presentations here over the next couple of months and tune into my Patreon at patreon.com slash Voices of VR, since there's certainly a lot of digest about the structures and patterns of immersive storytelling, some of the different emerging grammar that we're starting to develop, as well as the underlying patterns of experiential design. So, that's all I have for today, and thanks for listening to the Voices of VR podcast. And again, if you enjoyed the podcast, then please do spread the word, tell your friends, and consider becoming a member of the Patreon. This is a listen-supported podcast, and so I do rely upon donations from people like yourself in order to continue to bring this coverage. So you can become a member and donate today at patreon.com slash voicesofvr. Thanks for listening.
