I interviewed Floating with Spirits director Juanita Onzaga at Venice Immersive 2023. See more context in the rough transcript below.
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Rough Transcript
[00:00:05.452] Kent Bye: The Voices of VR Podcast. Hello, my name is Kent Bye, and welcome to the Voices of VR Podcast. It's a podcast that looks at immersive storytelling, experiential design, and the future of spatial computing. You can support the podcast at patreon.com. So this is a piece called Floating with Spirits and it's by Juanita Anzanga and it's looking at the Day of the Dead ceremony in Mexico where there's some Mazatec indigenous sisters who are going around to these different locations and there's a little bit of oral transmission of indigenous knowledge. The first half of this film is this 360 video that has This fictionalized component with these two sisters and then there's more Documentary footage with the context of these actors that are playing in the context that so you see the through line of these two sisters But it's also more anthropological documentation of some of the Day of the Dead ceremony activities that are happening there And then it kind of flips into the second half, much more of a point cloud representation where you're able to connect to the different spirits of the earth, air, fire, and water, and different animistic representations of these different elements. And you're listening to a lot of this, again, like indigenous knowledge that's being transmitted to you as you're listening to this piece. really quite a beautiful piece and I was really deeply touched by it and just really quite enjoyed it. It's in the center of gravity of a context of death and looking at these ceremonies around death and day of the dead. It's looking at the context of ancestors and the earth as well as aspects of indigenous philosophy. The primary center of gravity of presence is looking at mental and social presence, mostly because there's a lot of ideas that are being transmitted here and overhearing a lot of the Mazatec perspective on the world. And you're kind of learning about these indigenous perspectives, but also very driven by this broader environmental storytelling and all the different ways that the locations and spatial context is kind of telling the story, but also the emotional presence of being told the story in this narrative. It's kind of like threading everything together. So that's what we're covering on today's episode of Voices of VR podcast. So this interview with Juanita happened on Saturday, September 2nd, 2023 at Venice Immersive in Venice, Italy. So with that, let's go ahead and dive right in.
[00:02:31.058] Juanita Onzaga: My name is Juanita Onzaga. I was born in Colombia and I'm based between Colombia, Mexico, and Brussels. I come from the filmmaking world and the art world, and this is my first VR experience as a writer director. And I came into the VR world, I think it was five to six years ago, when I watched the first VR that I watched, which was Awavena from Lynette, from an American maker, shot in Brazil, talking about Ayahuasca. And I remember the experience of it, that it was reminding me visions and reminding me knowledge that I have been connected with since I was really young. And I felt the connection with it through the VR in a very strong way. So I got really interested in how virtual reality can transcend the physical distance and make us go to certain places that we cannot physically go to, but we go in our minds and within the headset to learn from these places and to come back to our lives changed.
[00:03:54.465] Kent Bye: Yeah, that was Lynette Woolworth that had produced that piece. Yeah. But maybe you could give a bit more context as to your background of what kind of traditions you're coming from, from media, storytelling, and the rest of your journey into VR.
[00:04:09.271] Juanita Onzaga: So I studied filmmaking, and I studied in Belgium. I started as a director of photography, and I did my Bachelor in Direction of Photography, which was very technical, which I think gave me a lot of tools of understanding all the technicalities of VR and like the rules, the do's and don'ts because I come from studying optics and light. Then I did a master in audiovisual arts in Brussels and then I started directing. So I have directed four short films. First one is called The Jungle Knows You Better Than You Do, which won a big prize in the Berlinale. And then our song To War, which was in Cannes director Fortnite. And with these two first short films, I, like the whole quest in a film like form was to work with how animism and mysticism from my background, which I'm from Colombia and I grew up in Colombia in an animistic background, can make the trauma from violent conflict become something else. And so I shot with what we call the poetic boys, so teenagers that are just very connected with their emotions and with the mystical world. I grew up surrounded by kids like them and I'm also talking from a very personal relationship with the dead and how they are alive in all the landscapes that they touched and that we can still touch and how these landscapes are kind of a portal to them. So that is really with my first two short films. Then, somehow, this world of the spirits and the ancestors in the first two short films was more about our loved ones that are not here anymore with us, physically, but somehow else. And then with my third short film, which is Tomorrow is a Water Palace, which was at Rotterdam and as well presented at MoMA of New York and the Museum of Modern Art of Paris, Then I started to work with the notion of what is a spirit and what does have a spirit and we can dialogue with and which are the ways we can communicate with the invisible world. So Tomorrow is a Water Palace is a dialogue with the spirit of fresh water in a world where there is no fresh water anymore. And so this woman can travel through dreams and visions to dialogue with the spirit of water. And then I arrived to the VR, to Floating with Spirits, which was giving a bigger questioning about how can we dialogue with those essences in nature that have a soul, that have a spirit, and how can we make people feel that are in the experience, not just watching a film, but feel that they can interact with and enter in dialogue with the spirits of nature. So I think that it's been like a road of like really searching from a very philosophical questioning of myself with myself you know like more coming from a really my big questions with life of how can we make peace with death and how can we communicate with nature and each of the different films has a very different subject I work with different native communities around the world mainly in Colombia and Mexico because I've been since I'm like 15 learning with different families and learning with different communities because that knowledge for me is the place where I learn the most from. So in a way it's been interlacing my own personal stories with the knowledge that I got to learn from them and with the technological and film tools of how to build sensorial worlds that make us forget about the rational and remember about the intuitive and that there is an invisible world around us and how can we feel it.
[00:08:26.265] Kent Bye: Beautiful. Yeah, I can definitely see the through line between your previous films and this piece, Floating with the Spirits, that you're showing here at Venice Immersive 2023. And yeah, I'm curious to hear what was the catalyst for you to start to continue exploring these themes of death and connecting to nature, connecting to the spirit realm and the invisible realms. What was the catalyst for you to go from seeing Lynette Woolworth's Awawina into making this piece that you're showing here?
[00:08:55.153] Juanita Onzaga: So I remember the first time I watched Awa Bena and there was this experiential, like it was almost like my body was feeling the ritual of Ayahuasca again. And then I watched Vestige. I mean, I did the whole experience of Vestige. And for me, coming from the filmmaking world, the most important is always the emotional connection that your work can build within the person that is watching it or experiencing it. And what Vestige did for me, it was deeply emotional and deeply physical, almost. I could feel the whole world of this woman that has lost somebody. And when I finished the experience, something inside me moved so much. And after I watched Vestige, I was like, okay, VR can be a form to go deeper into the psyche. into the subconscious, into the memories, into the dreams, and also into the psychology of whoever watches it, so that we rewire some parts of ourselves that have been maybe confused or lost or not so present. There was that from one side that I realized watching Vestige. And then from the other side is that there is a very, very deep connection with nature in the place where I come from, but also in the cosmogony of what nature means with the different communities I work with, but also as a Colombian person. At the same time, I live in Belgium from long ago. And so there is this idea that nature is important because it gives us air, fresh water we need it because we drink it, you know, like we need it for survival. And nature has been seen as natural resources by the West. But for us, nature is alive and Knowledge that is like from centuries lives within each of the elements of nature, within each mountain, each tree, each flower, each mushroom. Everything has knowledge inside that if we open our bodies as portals, then we can dialogue with them. And so this notion for me, it's extremely urgent because of the moment we're living in, to disassemble the myth of progress and to disassemble the vision of nature that the myth of progress has imposed on us and to rewire how do we see a flower? How do we feel a tree? How do we talk to wind? Because that is what I've learned from not only the Mazatec community, but from my time spent in many different communities. And that is also the way that I moved through the world. And from that urgency and at the same time that feeling that this could be the perfect thing to do in VR, then we started making this project.
[00:12:11.853] Kent Bye: Yeah, so I really see this piece split up into two parts where you have more of an anthropological 360 video look of a lot of the Day of the Dead rituals and just really exquisitely shot scenes of these different rituals to connect to the ancestors and I really felt transported into being able to be like a ghostly apparition, a spirit as it were, kind of just witnessing these rituals and then The whole second part was to connect deeply to each of the different elemental spirits, you know, as you're floating with the spirits and going into the earth, air, fire, and water. So, yeah, I'd love to hear you talk about the first part with the 360 video. And, you know, you said you have a background in film as a DP, center photographer. So, yeah, I'd love to hear your process of understanding the nuances of how to shoot the 360 video and what you were trying to do in this first part of, like, capturing these different scenes that were either documentary style or if there was things that you were trying to also construct and direct people to recreate. So yeah, just love to hear a little bit more about that process of capturing that.
[00:13:12.339] Juanita Onzaga: Right. So I think for the 360 part, I entered it from, I would say what I know better to do, which is directing in a hybrid style. So my short films previously, they're all docu fictions. And so there was The first thing that I think was really important in development was that we knew we didn't want the viewer to be a character, but we wanted the viewer to be really close with our main two characters, with the two little sisters. And so the whole design of cinematography and also of narration is so that we get really close to their own vision of the world, which is based in the cosmogony that they grew up with, because of what their shaman grandmother used to tell them. And so in order to do that, we designed the scenes so that they are fully directed with the girls and it's super rehearsed. Also so that the movements of the characters or the sounds make the user be curious about the environment and be able to discover new things while watching around the 360, but always with their perspective. So I think like the perspective of the two little girls was the center of how could we shoot the best this 360 part. And that meant having the camera at their height, having them be the closest possible to the camera, which was sometimes a bit like in the lines of what couldn't be done anymore because of technology. But we were always trying to push it the most we could to be close with them, not just physically, but also in the relationship to preparing for the Day of the Dead. Because in a sense, we were searching for opening curiosity in the user. What is curiosity and what is that state of mind that is childlike? when you are wondering about what is it that is around you. And at the same time, you have certain certainties about what that world is composed of. So having their point of view, but being close to them, was what guided us for that first part, for writing it, because we wrote every scene. And then, of course, a lot of research about exactly what are the symbols for the Day of the Dead? And what are the symbols? Because each of the symbols is a portal. Basically we wanted to build a meaning for each of the symbols that we will see in the first part, so that in the second part the symbols had a weight on them. And so that when we enter the world of the candles, that is the light that lives within the candles we light for our dead, we have seen this before. So it kind of lives within the viewer before we are deep into the particle world of each of these elements. their relationship to water, for example, when they are in the river and they go giving an offering to Chondave, that is the spirit of the water. And so then when you enter the water world, we know that they do have a relationship with water. And that's why we can enter that world. So it was a lot of like the writing of the first part is all inspired completely in the knowledge of the sabedoras and sabedores, of the knowledge people. They're not shamans, but they are the people that hold the knowledge from tradition of oral narratives in the community, which we spent so long. spending time with them, listening, sharing time and learning. And so everything there comes from that cosmogony. And the work shooting for the docu-fiction was a mix between fictionalizing certain things, especially with the two little girls, so that we could have a narrative that took us closer and closer to the preparations of the Day of the Dead. And then some scenes that are the ones of the ritual itself, when we arrive to the Day of the Dead. The Day of the Dead that they celebrate in the Mazatec community is a pre-colonial ritual, which was one of the reasons why we went there. Also because Maria Sabina comes from Huautla. Maria Sabina, she was a shaman and a poet really important for the Bitnik generation because she was one of the first persons that opened the knowledge about sacred mushrooms in the 16th century. So you had all these artists from the 60s, like, okay, I don't know exactly the names, but big persons from the Bitnik generation went there and learned from her. And her poetry is just so deep and beautiful and feminine. It's really rooted in a feminine knowledge with nature. So yeah, this is like for how the narration is built, it's built upon these different elements for the first part. And so these scenes of the ritual, we shot them like directing the girl and her mother and then around people were in their ritual. And so we also worked a lot with the community so that, you know, we were there and they were doing their thing. But some of those scenes with like for the cinematography we were really thinking like where can you see the most from but also feel like feel you are in that place and feel you're surrounded by everybody praying to their dead so that you can ask yourself the questions of wow like what can I do for my dead as well
[00:19:14.220] Kent Bye: Yeah, it's just a exquisitely beautiful scenes that were there. And so, yeah, it sounds like the actual ritual was the actual Day of the Dead, but there was a lot of associated stuff that's leading up to it. There's also some dancing that was happening. Was that also on the day or was that something that was directed by you?
[00:19:29.853] Juanita Onzaga: No, that was like, I think, one of the first scenes of the ritual, because that is the moment that they open the portal. So basically, the Day of the Dead in Huautla and in the Mazatec community is not just one day, but it is several days where each day is for a different kind of person. So there is one day that is for the kids that they call the little angels. There is one day that is for the elders. there's another day that is for people that have passed away from like something violent. So there are several days and that dancing that is actually the Huehuentones. The Huehuenton is the first figure that appears when you're in the cave and is in the ritual. Huehuentones are people that are dancing and making music during the whole days of the Day of the Dead. And they are representing the dead that can travel to our world, and also the people from our world, our plane of reality, that can travel to the world of the dead. So they are a portal. And so the Huehuantones are going all around the village singing and dancing in each house, representing how the dead are visiting each of the houses because they are here. And so that scene was one of the first scenes we shot where they are doing the opening of the portal so the Hueventones start arriving to this plane of reality and so that this plane of reality opens so that we can dialogue with our dead. Yeah, that scene is very important.
[00:21:11.718] Kent Bye: Yeah, so it definitely felt like as I was watching it that, you know, there's some narrative parts that felt like these two girls that were going to these different scenes and the narration, but then it sort of flips into this more anthropological exploration of this ritual that also has these two protagonist girls that you've been following. But then there's also this layer of narration, which I sort of read it as this indigenous knowledge that's being transmitted. And I guess the character in the piece is the grandmother, who is a shaman to these two girls. And so maybe you could talk about the narration. And you sort of alluded that you're showing each of these different four elements in the mountains, seeing the wind, the water, they're by the water, you see the fire, and you see the earth as well. So maybe you could talk about that narration as they're going around to these different locations.
[00:21:58.747] Juanita Onzaga: So the narration for the first part is based on how the big sister is telling to us, but also to her little sister, what her grandmother used to share with her, with a grandmother that was a shaman. For this native community, but for a lot of other ones, oral narratives are extremely important because that is the way that knowledge is passed from generation to generation to generation. Books are not so much the way of passing knowledge as we have in our society, but for them it's oral narratives. passing the knowledge to us, and that's the way that we build the voiceover. But knowledge is passed in an intimate way, because that's the way that you also learn it from the elders. They share it with you because it's not rigid knowledge, but it is intuitive knowledge, it is emotional knowledge, and it is almost like knowledge that you already know, because you have been in those spaces. And at the same time, what was really important for me was to, through this voiceover, have what they see, what these two little girls see, of what you are seeing. So if they see a waterfall and a river, they see that this is the offering place. for the river. And this is where I listen to the voice of my grandmother that sounds like water. So the voiceover gives these different layers of what those places of the natural world and those elements of the Day of the Dead mean to them in a deep way. And what I mean by deep is by the very deep symbolisms and metaphors and meanings that attach to what it means to live knowing that water is your ally and you can ask it for things and it can give it back to you or knowing that if you do an altar for your dead you need to put their favorite food because of course they need to eat as well when they come back home for some days for the ritual. And this is their reality. And so the voiceover is written so that we are not just witnessing, but we are seeing reality from their perspective. Because this is what builds so that we're also curious, like they are. And I love to work with characters that are in between being kids and teenagers, like this age between 12 and 14. Yeah, 11 to 14, well it depends like where they are at, but it's great because they are really in the point between innocence and really trying to understand the world and defining it. And so this age, for me, it's perfect. I have done three films with characters of that age because I feel that it wakes up something in us that is maybe not childlike, but it is out of pure curiosity and imagination. And their imagination and the way that their imagination is portrayed by the voiceover is what allows us to go and dive deep into that second world Because we have been in their imagination, in the real world, and then we go deep in their imagination, like seeing things as they see it in their own heads.
[00:25:40.118] Kent Bye: Or at least the physical world, because the second world is also potentially a real world within its own right.
[00:25:46.002] Juanita Onzaga: Exactly. It's complicated to say it in words, because the 360 part for me is the physical, and then the second world is the invisible. and both are real, but at the same time what I wanted to build with the second world was this kind of cyclical time where these spirits are in this place and these worlds are there and you're in a timeless experience of the world while the first part is more narrative and linear and you're advancing somewhere.
[00:26:18.803] Kent Bye: The first part is more the earth element and the second part is more the air element, I think, in some ways of the abstractions of the particle effects that allow you to get into these abstractions that feel like the air element is something that you can feel and you can experience but you can't necessarily see it. So there's a way that you're using the particle effects to give us the outlines of these fluid dynamics or motion dynamics. Yeah, I'd love to hear you give a bit more context to these elements. The elements are something that have been deeply inspiring to my own practice of understanding both virtual reality, but also philosophically going all the way back to Empedocles and then Aristotle. It's been a big part of the Western tradition of philosophy, but also indigenous philosophy and hermetic traditions. then many different traditions around the world have looked to the elements as inspiration for how to make sense of the world, especially from a phenomenological experiential perspective. So yeah, I'd love to hear your take on the four elements and yeah.
[00:27:15.457] Juanita Onzaga: Well, from a personal perspective, like I work with alchemy and for me making work, artwork is trying to do alchemy with reality. And so the four elements and ether are the base of how I think creatively. So it was evident that there would be four spirits so that you as the user are the fifth, and you are ether, and that is the clue, somehow. And at the same time, for me there's a really important aspect in working with mysticism, but also with mysticism in the physical world, is that even if we are working with knowledge that is very specific to the Mass Effect community, is that it can be universally felt. and that each of us has a different relationship with the elements, for some in a more pragmatic way, and for some in a more ethereal way, and for some in a more philosophical way. But we grow up with a, I would say, primary capacity of thinking the world with the elements. and astrology. There are so many different branches from every part of the world that concern the elements. And at the same time, for building that part, I wanted it to be extremely specific to the Mazatec knowledge. So the way that we build the worlds, there is the water world, which is the world of Chondave, which is the spirit of the water, which is the feminine spirit in the Mazatec knowledge. Then we have the fire, which at the same time is the meaning within the fire, is the fire that is burning inside the candles we put for our dead. So we tried to take every world and to have it have at least two sides of a coin, but maybe it's more like a sphere that can be seen from different perspectives. so that it could be seen from an elemental perspective, but also from a very specific symbology in the mass of technology perspective. Because at the end, it's the same, right? There is no difference between talking about the fire or the fire that is in the candle we burn for our past loved ones. So there was this work with, for example, for the flower world. So the flower world, I don't know if for you that was more earth,
[00:29:51.930] Kent Bye: Yeah, Earth. For me, that was more the Earth. But is it called flower in their tradition?
[00:29:56.413] Juanita Onzaga: So, for example, that one, we were like, OK, this is the Earth world. And at the same time, it is what lives in the flowers that we put for our dead. And this is completely universal as well, like not only to the Mazatec ritual of Day of the Dead, but for the Mazatec knowledge, flowers are what guide the soul of the spirits when they are coming down to visit us during the Day of the Dead, because they are these points of light, as well as the candles. And this is why they have Sempozuchi orange flowers, because they're bright, And so there was this question of, OK, but why flowers? And what do these flowers mean? They're actually a portal, because that's what joins the two worlds, the world of the dead with the world of the living. as well as the candles. And so somehow we constructed these worlds thinking of the elements and at the same time of the symbology so that it's all woven together for the user. And so there is no difference between thinking of, OK, we are flying through the mountains, and we are flying like an eagle. But at the same time, we're talking about mushrooms, the sacred mushrooms, which are extremely important in the Mazatec knowledge, because that is their bridge, one of their portals to where they get the knowledge from, the shamans. And so for us, talking about the wind, because the wind represents the spiritual realm, is also talking about what is the portal to that spiritual realm. which is the sacred mushroom. So that's like the first thing you see. And they're so beautiful because they're all golden and made of particles. And they are so important for the Mazatec community. So there was like this rethinking the elemental from a Mazatec perspective. And at the same time, making it so that people would just feel the symbols and not being explanatory about them. Yeah. Because for me, the balance is more about feeling and less about rationality and the whole sound work in all my work is about entrancing and trying to shut off the rational so that we can access the subconscious and the unconscious as a dialogue with what we're watching or experiencing.
[00:32:30.447] Kent Bye: Yeah, there's sort of a parallel in terms of visualizing the elements, in terms of the fluid dynamics of water can be very similar to the fluid dynamics of air, and just the way that you were visually representing each of the elements. And you'd mentioned the spirit name from the Mazatec tradition for water, but maybe you could go through each of the four spirits that are associated to each of the elements, just so that we invoke each of their names as we cover this.
[00:32:56.153] Juanita Onzaga: So the Ch'ul spirits that are the most important for the Mazatec knowledge are Chondave, that is the spirit of the water, and Chikontokosho, that is the spirit of the mountain. So those two are them. And then the two others are the symbols of something that is just central. to the Mazatec knowledge. So, for me, there is something really important on thinking the non-human as a personification, so that we can look differently at the non-human. And so, at the beginning, there was this idea of having each spirit personify a deity for the Mazatec, but then we tried to go further and say, OK, but what if it's not only personifying the deities, but personifying the non-human agencies that they are in dialogue with, that maybe don't have a specific name as a spirit, but that we can personify them so that we can change the way we look at flowers, for example. And this is very linked to Donna Haraway's thinking of how that personification of the non-human changed the perspective of how we look at things after. Because it does do something to see a mountain represented as personified in a human-looking body, even though it's made of particles that are going all around, or a flower that is personified in a human body, it does reach another part of the brain to rethink the non-human. And so there was a focus on how the non-human is feeling and communicating just in another language than the human, but it has the same importance for us than the human. And so we have the two spirits and then the two personifications of the non-human, very strong core symbols for the Mazatec.
[00:34:58.440] Kent Bye: If we look to the hermetic traditions of alchemy, magic, and astrology, then there are masculine and feminine aspects of the elements. I actually prefer looking to Chinese philosophy of yang and yin because I feel like that doesn't necessarily have to be associated with gender per se. you know, yin being the more receptive and yang being more outward. And so the yin aspects of both the water and the earth and then the more yang elements of fire and air. So you talked about how the two most important for the Mazatec community were more of the yin or the feminine elements of both the water and the earth. And so I'd love to hear a little bit more context as to more of that yin orientation of why those were the two most important.
[00:35:41.630] Juanita Onzaga: I mean, those are the ones existing in the Mazatec community. So it's like, yeah, Chikonto Koshu and Chondave, like that's for them and that's Water Mountain. So that is coming from their cosmogony. But for example, for me, it was really important when we were designing the costume design for the spirits and the choreography and the look was that I wanted non-gendered spirits. I wanted gender fluid spirit. And it was very important to detach the notion of gender from certain elements for me because I feel that we all as human beings have different energies flowing and they are changing a lot. And so nature being this completely like a life force that is just bringing change ongoing the whole time. I didn't want it to market as either or, like either feminine or masculine or being like, ah yeah, fire is more masculine and water is more feminine. Like we wanted to give a personality to each of the spirits. So like, that's actually why we decided to do it in depth kits and not in motion capture. and that's also why each of the spirits is a different dancer that has a different movement quality and we did the whole choreography with them but then we also created the solo choreographies with each of them from their element and from their symbols, because each has a personality. But then it's up to the user to feel, oh, this is more this, or this is more that. And then about the worlds, I feel that somehow they are built coming from an elemental perspective, because I work with the elements. But at the same time, seeing the elements as a shifting force, and as a shifting force that has a secret inside. And the secrets inside the worlds come from the knowledge that we got shared about, that was the reason why Chondave was important, or the reason why Chikonto Kosho is important, or the reason why those flowers are important for the Mazatec, and then how do we transcribe it into a feeling that we can have while being in that world. We wanted to create something that is like you're encountering four beings, and each of them has something different. And so it's up to the user to feel curiosity for some of them. There is a moment of the experience where it is gaze interactive and also sound interactive. And if you move closer, you will go faster into their worlds. So then there is really like this, like they are reacting to your presence. They are reacting to your curiosity. And that was very important for building the interaction. I come from the film world, and I discovered VR, and I loved it. And I have watched a lot of VR developing this one. And one of the focuses that we had for audience was to be able to build a VR that people that have never watched the VR could go into and interact without even realizing they're interacting. and to have the interactions based on your body movements and natural and organic movements to what your body does when it's curious. And so we build the whole interactivity on that and that's the reason why we don't have controllers because there was a notion of The middle part, like the transition between the physical world and the invisible world, we created it in a way so that we try to guide people into an intimate place of listening and contemplating and dialoguing with. For being there, there is like an entrancement of the body, but also forgetting that you are in this real world with the VR headset. And that's why we don't have controllers or that's why we don't have anything that you can remember you are watching a VR, so that the users just give themselves completely to being in that world and living in that world for the time. that is said from the second part. Because I feel that that is a gift that we can give to our own psyches. Like we are completely transported and our body remembers what we lived there as if it was happening in reality. Because it does happen in reality, just in another reality.
[00:40:36.737] Kent Bye: Yeah, I know Liz and Michelle were talking about this year's program and talking about the transcendental nature of some of these different experiences and Floating With Spirits I think was coming to her mind, especially as you're going into these particle effect worlds, exploring all these different elements and Also just listening to what I saw and read as this ancestral knowledge or indigenous knowledge that's being transmitted as you're learning more about the different elements from this indigenous community's perspective, but also ends with you interacting and engaging and embracing an ancestor. as I was going through the experience, I was thinking about my own ancestors and feeling a connection to them while I was in the experience. And so I feel like you're sort of inviting a space for people to connect with their own ancestors, which I think is really quite moving and powerful. And yeah, I'd love to hear any reflections on, you know, designing a space for that.
[00:41:29.372] Juanita Onzaga: Yeah, I feel that, you know, if I ask the time of someone half an hour, What can we give them back, you know? And healing our own relationship with the dead is, at least for me, is that I don't call them the dead anymore, but I call them the ancestors or the people I love who are in another plane of reality. And this is something I have learned since I'm really young because I have lost people that were really close. And so it's been a process and big philosophical questions and creating artwork to heal with that and be in peace with that. And I feel that building a space that is meditative and contemplative and at the same time from the imagination allows to imagine differently where are those that have passed away. And listening to the imaginations of these girls and their ritual is actually a way of asking the question to the viewer, to the user, like, what is your relationship with you know, thinking about your loved ones outside of rationality, Christianism, Catholicism, outside of like things that probably are really deep inside us and that are not different than the questions we are asking in the experience. But what if we think about it from another perspective? And what if we are not thinking about it, but what if we are feeling our ancestors live And how can we dialogue with them? Because that is what we try to make people feel. And then when you feel it, which questions can be raised? Because if you feel like, yeah, actually, when I do put a candle on, I feel something. I don't know what it is. I don't even need to explain it to know that I feel it. When I go and take some candle, I feel something. Feeling, for me, is the center of knowledge, which is a very decolonial way of renaming not only what is death, but also what is knowledge. And that is the center of my artistic practice. So I try to give this to the viewer, to the users, during the experience, so that they can rename death from feeling that Well, maybe that death is not the good word. Maybe we can rename it. Maybe we can call it differently, see it differently. Because at the end, that is the big question that we will never be able to answer. But if we are able to feel, you know, like my ancestors, I know they are protecting me. I know they are really good. And I know they wish and do the best for me. That's what I learned since I'm really young, and I know they are there, and I know I can ask them for advice. Of course, their advice won't be like a mom's advice of, OK, go here and that. No, you just feel it. So opening the senses to the invisible renames the physical, renames life, because then you know that every time you are dialoguing with someone or you are in a nature space, or you are in a water, freshwater river, like there is more than what you see physically. And acknowledging that the world is made of presences and spirits and your ancestors and all these layers of the invisible, first of all, you're not alone anymore, which for me was one of the centers of why I wanted to create this experience. Because I think like after the whole COVID thing. I live in different places in the world. I have seen so many people so isolated and thinking about death from such a fearful place. And for me, it's urgent, first of all, to not have that fear. And second, to break that loneliness that can be caused by I am living this existence by myself. Well, no, you're not. You have your ancestors keeping an eye on you and helping you and guiding you, and they do. But you do need to acknowledge them. You do need to dialogue with them. You do need to communicate with them. And communicating with them is not like, OK, I'm going to go and do a ritual. No, it's as simple as just thinking of them and putting a candle, putting your own symbols. In a way, all of this comes from a place of trying to bring this experience to people that can take from it something personal, to their own relationship to death, as well to the physical and the invisible being one unity where we are living at.
[00:46:56.385] Kent Bye: Beautiful. Yeah. And, uh, and finally, what do you think the ultimate potential of virtual reality and immersive storytelling might be and what it might be able to enable?
[00:47:07.308] Juanita Onzaga: Oh my God. Um, so we talk a lot about empathy when we talk about VR because we can really go into like points of view that are not, I mean, as a human being normally would be so hard to beam that specific point of view. I think that empathy is extremely important in nowadays world and I think that VR can have the potential to not only be in the eyes of someone else or be in the eyes of an animal or of nature, but allow us to reshape how we connect with technology so that this physical world is still magical. And for me, virtual reality reminded me of how magical this is. And to see it again with different eyes So I feel that, I don't know how, with which kind of technology and where is it going to grow. I think that VR is, I mean VR and immersive and there are so many new technologies also like adding up and mashing up into new projects, exploring a mashup of technologies. But how can we have the sense that this reality is magical and not forget about it? Because when we know this reality is magical, then, you know, we can just do magic with it. And I think that's one of the most powerful things for us human beings to know and to be able to work with and to create with and to love from knowing that this world is a magical place. So, yeah, like I'm always curious about watching more VR works and immersive works because of reminding me that. And I'm just wondering which new technologies are going to be out there so that it can enhance the reality by reminding us of that magical aspect.
[00:49:15.980] Kent Bye: Is there anything else left and said you'd like to say to the broader immersive community?
[00:49:22.625] Juanita Onzaga: I mean a project like this the most important for me at the end was like being able to work with such talented people in my crew and to be able to trust them and to be able to just trust the technology as well and my technologies which Lillian Sauer and she's amazing because at the end it's all about what the project becomes and the project becomes something because of the effort of so many people so I feel that the collaborative aspect of doing this VR and collaborative in the sense not only of building the whole virtual world and the spirits and the secret worlds but also the place where it comes from, it really comes from my role as an artist being a bridge of knowledge that I have been surrounded with or that I learn from different native communities and how we can transcribe this into feelings so that you or any person now in Venice or any person that watches the experience can have access to it and rewire life with it little by little. So, yeah.
[00:50:41.553] Kent Bye: Awesome. Well, floating with spirits was certainly one of my favorite experiences that I saw this year at Venice. I thought it was really just a beautifully shot cinematography in the first part and the second part just deeply moving to have this specialized visualization of these etheric transcendent spirit realms of each of the elements and to have the indigenous knowledge and wisdom and connecting to the ancestors kind of woven throughout the entirety of the experience. I just thought it was just super powerful, especially the ending there. You kind of embrace an ancestor. Yeah, thanks so much for creating the piece and for taking the time to help break it all down. So thank you.
[00:51:14.853] Juanita Onzaga: Thank you so much for the invitation and I'm so glad of getting to know what you felt with it. It's really precious also that you open yourself to our world.
[00:51:26.165] Kent Bye: Thanks for listening to this interview from Fitness Immersive 2023. You can go check out the Critics' Roundtable in episode 1305 to get more breakdown in each of these different experiences. And I hope to be posting more information on my Patreon at some point. There's a lot to digest here. I'm going to be giving some presentations here over the next couple of months and tune into my Patreon at patreon.com slash Voices of VR, since there's certainly a lot of digest about the structures and patterns of immersive storytelling, some of the different emerging grammar that we're starting to develop, as well as the underlying patterns of experiential design. So, that's all I have for today, and thanks for listening to the Voices of VR podcast. And again, if you enjoyed the podcast, then please do spread the word, tell your friends, and consider becoming a member of the Patreon. This is a listener-supported podcast, and so I do rely upon donations from people like yourself in order to continue to bring this coverage. So you can become a member and donate today at patreon.com slash voicesofvr. Thanks for listening.
