Solastalgia is a site-specific augmented reality experience on the HoloLens 2 where you explore the surface of a depopulated planet in ruin, and colonized by a number of human ghost holograms. “Solastalgia” is a neologism coined by philosopher Glenn Albrecht in 2005 that describes a form of emotional or existential distress caused by environmental change. At Sundance, I went through through this experience with another audience member, but there isn’t any social interactions built into the experience as we’re each experiencing different aspects of the narrative at our own pace.
I had a chance to catch up with Solastalgia co-creators Pierre-Alain Giraud and Antoine Viviani at Sundance where they talked about the evolution of this project, their experiential design process, the differences between the smaller and shorter Sundance version and the larger and longer version that’s playing at museums around the world, and how they wanted to use immersive technologies to look into the future of the Anthropocene epoch, and explore the “potentially redemptive power of technology and the scientific forecast of a compromised future.”
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Rough Transcript
[00:00:05.452] Kent Bye: The Voices of VR Podcast. Hello, my name is Kent Bye, and welcome to the Voices of VR Podcast. So continuing on in my series of looking at the XR experiences at Sundance, specifically some of the immersive storytelling innovations, the technological innovations, as well as the experiential design process. So today's episode is with the creators of Solastalgia. So this was a pretty epic augmented reality experience. It was on the Holland Lens 2. They had this whole installation. Solastalgia is a term from a philosopher named Glenn Albrecht from 2005. It tries to describe this form of emotional or existential distress that's caused by environmental change. you're in this world that is often to the far distant future it's basically like ecological devastation you feel like you're kind of walking around this moon environment and you see these little holograms of these ghosts like characters with a big monolith and there's different aspects of the story that you're trying to piece together so This is a much larger experience that has actually been installed with, you know, a much larger space and a much longer time. This seemed to be a little bit of a edited version of that, so a smaller space with not as many holograms and stories. You know, it has kind of like a backdrop of black, so you have some contrast to be able to see the holograms relative to this larger installation that's very site-specific, but is going around to different museums around the world. So that's what we're covering on today's episode of the Voices of VR podcast. So this interview with Pierre and Antoine happened on Monday, January 27th, 2020 at the Sundance Film Festival in Park City, Utah. So with that, let's go ahead and dive right in.
[00:01:44.895] Pierre-Alain Giraud: Hello, so I'm Pierre Alain Giraud. I'm from France, but live in Iceland. And we have a project here in Sundance called Solastalgia. It's an AR project where we built a set and people explore it with their HoloLens 2 headsets. So it's our first AR project and we are more from a classical filmmaking background with documentaries together. And we have a small production company in Paris called Providence.
[00:02:14.771] Antoine Viviani: Hi, my name is Antoine Viviani, I come from France and more specifically Corsica, the island of Corsica. I made a couple of future experimental documentaries, including the last one called In Limbo, which actually is the origin of the project called Solastalgia. which is this large-scale installation which is putting you into a fictitious sci-fi world where we try to explore a mysterious future that is kind of a bad scenario for the planet which has become inhabitable and where we can discover and meet the ghosts that are still haunting the place and how the last generations of humans that have lived there have decided to, thanks to a specific machine, to transform themselves into ghosts to continue as spirit to haunt the place rather than to live out of the world, I would say, in like bunkers or whatever. So the project is called Solostalgia, which means it's a world that was invented I think 15 years ago or so, by an Australian philosopher called Glenn Brecht, in order to describe a very modern disease, I would say, meaning a kind of distress caused by the disparation of familiar environment or world that we know, and especially for indigenous people who have really witnessed the disparation of their own world. So this is today as we face this global ecological crisis something that we are all aware of and The idea of the project so it originates from the film called in limbo that we did together the piano edited and that's how we met actually and five years ago, which was a kind of poetic journey into the digital world as if there was nothing left anymore than that. And so it was a story of a spirit that was waking up in the maze of data centers and slowly dissolving into it, meeting the founding fathers of the Internet, leaders of that world that I filmed as ghosts already, you know, with the Kinect, depth kit camera, talking to themselves forever. So the project originates from that. There is this fantastic museum called the Champs-Libres in Rennes, in France, that asked us to imagine an exhibition around the film. And we thought, let's try maybe to push things a little beyond and try to imagine an experience around that that goes further. And so the world that we imagined in this film, we decided to explore it. to actually integrate into that project, into these intentions. Okay, this questioning of the belief we have in technology today, you know, and all these digital traces that will certainly maybe survive us at least a little bit. And why do we do that as a species? But integrate into that questioning also this awareness around the world we're living in today and the consequences of that. Why is it so that today, at the same time that we are questioning the way we live in the world and now we are all aware that there's a dead end in some sense and that we have to imagine new ways of living, of producing, of everything, etc. Why is it that at the same time that there is this end-of-the-world kind of situation where we're starting to think of the end of civilizations and everything, the beliefs into technology, even the faith in a way, into the solutions that could be brought by technology are stronger than ever. Is there a relation between those two strange and very important issues of our time, which are maybe the most important issues of our time? This is an abysmal question and we don't want to answer that, but we want to put the audience, the viewer, the explorer, I would say, to feel it from the inside. And so we imagine this world in a few centuries that there is this strange Bad news, so the IPCC in English, we say the Climate Conference, the IPCC has foreseen that the alteration of the atmosphere is inevitable and in a few decades some people for mysterious reasons have decided to build a machine that we call SOLAS. and this machine is the exact look of the monolith you know in 2001 Space Odyssey except that it's bright and white this time. This machine enables the people that want to to live again forever the same memory, the same scene, the same gesture over and over again as holograms, as ghosts. And it contains the promise to keep the conscious alive in that moment. It's like the eternal return, in a way. And, of course, it's a moment of big war and crisis and conflicts because, I mean, you can imagine the situation, right? And for some reason, for a personal reason, some people start, because they don't want to degenerate, because they want to be remembered in a specific way, some people start to become ghosts and to integrate into that strange machine. And at first it's something, people are very reluctant, I would say, with all this, but then people get used to live among ghosts. And what does it mean to live among ghosts? At the moment when you see the ghosts that are continuing as the spirit of the forest, as the spirit of the places that we used to have also before, continue to be there and to share their world, because once you come closer to a ghost you can hear actually his interior voices, you know his interior world and everything. So, people start to keep feelings with them, you know, to the close ones and to everything. Anyway, that's how we imagine the evolution of this world that is getting a strange kind of heaven, basically, in an inhabitable planet and how humanity became ghosts. And so this is the world we want to put you in, to feel this idea of being out of the world. What does it mean to live in the world? And do we really want that, in a sense, with technology? Do we really want to create a world that is only for us? But if it's only for us, not with the other livings, then we will be dead in this world. We will be just traces of ourselves. So, these are just a few ideas, I don't know if I'm clear, but we don't want to have any moral judgment or point of view saying technology is good or bad, it's both, of course, and we just want to question our own belief in technology today and just think about where we really want to go with all this, you know, and what's the point. And so, yeah, that's what the intentions and the origins of the project, the ideas at least, yeah.
[00:09:34.128] Kent Bye: Yeah, and well my direct experience of this piece was that, you know, I'm using a HoloLens 2, which is nice to see people trying to do some narrative content on the HoloLens 2. I don't see that a lot. There's probably a lot of bugs or, you know, I just get the sense that's probably a lot of frustrations that you have to even get it to work. But in the experience, you're on this planet, there's this installation place, and all of the background is like black. So in some ways you're in this space-like environment, but it allows some high contrast for the holograms to be able to be seen in a way that it's even more obvious to see them. And then there's these little points of light that are walking around, and I'm in the experience with another person, but I'm not really necessarily interacting with them. They're also walking around to these little lights and getting a little bit of narrative, so they're getting some abstract art depiction where it's not always clear what the context is or what the story is or what's happening and it's hard for me to sort of ground what the deeper through line with all those different pieces were and so I guess as I hear you talk about that I can hear the artistic contention but there's also like this a little bit of a gap in terms of it's very experimental and abstract and I actually couldn't describe what the deeper story was. I knew that there were ghosts but you know the deeper through line of what people were saying and how it all ties together was a little bit hard for me to grok.
[00:10:50.535] Antoine Viviani: There's a good reason I think for that, is that what we're showing here in Sundance is a very reduced, shortened version of the real format that is already being played in museums in Europe. So here it's 10 minutes for two people, normally it's 45 minutes for 12 people and 400 square meters, so that's a huge gap, as you said. And, of course, the narration, you know, the stories, you have to take the time to discover all the little fragments of the world that takes time to explore. And, yes, I'm not sure it's very easy to understand everything here. Instead, the idea was more for us to show the project and see how we could show it actually in museums or in centers, you know, in North America. and present the ideas and the intentions rather than, you know, having a... It's not the experience actually, you know.
[00:11:45.032] Pierre-Alain Giraud: Yeah, I mean the full-scale project is also with IoT and with light and you go inside with a backpack and with light on your head and it's dark for like five minutes. You really explore a dark space, no light at all. And then the actual ground is vibrating and there is sound coming from the walls. So it's like a whole world that we created, that is interacting with you, that we couldn't do here. But here we try to make a piece with a beginning, a middle and an end somehow, which is a reduced version. But I think also it works here in that format, so we managed to do something reduced, but I hope compelling for the audience to see. But the full experience uses really all the senses of the visitor. Also the monolith is a real one. Here we had it virtual, but it's like a real stone monolith with lights inside. So it's a different experience. And you have time, you have this long pace of 40 minutes, 45 minutes. you have time really to go into each stories and to understand the full picture and the whole story of the world that we're proposing.
[00:12:59.075] Kent Bye: I think it might also be a little bit more of the way that I process information in a very embodied way and I felt like most of the narrative that was being given to me was through the monologue for what these individuals were saying and so but when I'm in this experience I'm trying to understand the deeper context and understand what the spatial elements are and you know I don't know if just as a design intention, if you were to try to tell that same story without any dialogue, then how would you communicate what they were talking about? And so I think because I was disparate without being able to get any larger contextual grounding, it felt like, for me, difficult to connect those dots. But if there's a part of the volumetric capture Because for me, when I am in a VR experience and I hear lyrics, then I might have to watch the experience two or three times to be able to really parse through the lyrics, because I'm trying to look at the visuals and the embodiment. And I felt a little bit of that experience in this experience, where I felt a little lost in terms of what the through line was.
[00:13:53.610] Antoine Viviani: We've had different feedbacks, you know, a lot of people also are getting the situation. I guess it depends also, of course, on the way you explore this, but there is a very clear for us way of setup, you know, of ideas, but I mean, you have to do the experience yourself and especially main one to understand the logic of this world and the way, you know, there is the spirit so embodied by Nancy Houston, the writer, the voice of the monolith and of this machine, Solace. that is calling the people, actually, the ghosts, you know, and making them appear. And each scene is related to another one, how people have developed relationships, even feelings sometimes between one and another, and ultimately how they get into this machine. There is this ritual sequence of the experience that is something that you always see, whether you want it or not, in a way, that it appears as a kind of dream and nightmare of the machine itself, you know, and that's how it it goes in the end. But for us of course it's also to explore different ways of storytelling that are new in this space and it's an experiment and we really ask, this is something very important for us to understand, if the people have understood a logic or not. It's very clear for some of them, it's more abstract for others. This is, you know, this is how it is. It's the game, I think, of this installation. It's like a lot of contemporary art installations where sometimes you need some context, sometimes you don't want to have some context. I mean, it depends from the point of view, from where you come from. I don't know. We just want to create a world and put you inside and see what you what you feel about that, and we see really this as an experience, an evolving one. So now for six months long it's in Brittany, it's in France, in a museum called the Champs-Élysées. It's moving to the National Gallery in Iceland in June. then in the medium of modern art in Sweden. So each time we want to enhance, adapt, change as much as we can the content, adapt to the geology of the place because of course we want to explore the links and the relationship with the territory. That's the basis of the story, the center of what we want to tell. So we're not gonna take two trunks to Iceland from France, it doesn't make any sense. Now that we learned so much about how we can use AR and create a world like that, we want to select a specific place that already exists in a country and project it in a hundred years. and then bring our story of that world, but maybe reshoot some scenes with local actors in the local language also, and create a conversation between these exhibitions also, locally and internationally, because it could happen simultaneously in different places also. So, this is all super new in a way, you know, but we want to use that, this experience, to learn and push beyond every time the tools and the techniques that we use. For instance, we had a lot of ideas for all the interactions that could exist between scenes, the characters and the set, you know, of course, and that's what is working the best, I think. But that's also complicated sometimes, you know, you put someone under a tree and you can see that from his own temporal bubble the tree is still alive or it's raining or something and right next to it there's someone else in another time in a way and it could be the same structure, the same set, but really just a completely different atmosphere and yeah, and just moment and maybe it's blooming, the trees are blooming, you see what I mean. And work on the juxtapositions of these temporal bubbles, this is really what we want to work more on and in order to do that we can enhance the capture of the scenes, working with different Kinect cameras simultaneously to have real 3D explorations of the scenes because Right now, it's only with one camera that we film, so there is always only one angle for you to see the scenes, you know. I mean, if you go behind the character, it's going to be very abstract, of course. This is interesting also visually, but it's limiting in a big space, you know, for placing the scenes. So there are a lot of different issues and challenges like that, that we want to work on and for us it's really this experience a way to propose something very strange which is very new I think between an art installation, you know, the landscape that we want to create, a story, an immersive story that use elements of theater, of cinema in the sense that it's a séance, you know, it's the same and even play with all the interactions possible with the music in the room, in the headsets, as a kind of almost opera, total kind of art, which is completely crazy and so exciting because The exciting thing with this project also is that museums are really interested in getting new spaces today to propose cross-boundaries experiences, you know. I think we need that, we need to mix and entangle genres and formats and experiences. This is very exciting with technology today. And so we are at this moment now where we have the possibility to create these stories in new spaces and the crazy thing is that there can be a lot of people that can see it, you know, and that's very new because if you have, let's say as is today in France with Solastalgia, you have 8 groups of 10-12 people every day, that means over 5 or 6 months it's 8,000 people or 10,000 people. then you're really starting to show your work to people. And that's super important for creators to be able to do that. And I think that this is new, maybe, in a way.
[00:20:01.945] Pierre-Alain Giraud: Pierre-Alain, please, you can talk also. Also, I will ask you a question, because the juxtaposition for us of bodies into this desertic landscape for us was as such images that were really speaking to us, in a way. And even with the narratives that are deconstructed around, did you feel that it was telling to you? There was a story told just by this juxtaposition of living person on this desertic landscape.
[00:20:36.925] Kent Bye: Well, I guess the experience that I had was that I was going to each of the little lights, and then I would get a little volumetric performance. But I didn't necessarily have enough context to know what they were talking about. They weren't necessarily moving around very much. They were kind of standing there. And like I said, if there was cut off the audio altogether, I would, you know, it was pretty much the experience that I had was like not being able to find a through line for piecing together a puzzle. It feels like a little bit of a narrative puzzle where you're trying to piece things together. But I felt like it was difficult for me to have any deeper grounding to be able to make any of those connections. So I guess that was my experience.
[00:21:12.185] Antoine Viviani: Once again, this is really because of the format, but also it's true that we want to lose view inside this state of mind where you have to look for yourself and explore the fragments. So, what does it mean to see all these entangled bodies next to a ruin, you know, and with a specific sound? We don't want it to be super clear. This is really the point, you know, and everybody will make his own experience and I think, yeah, that's what we wanted to do actually.
[00:21:38.480] Pierre-Alain Giraud: And it's important for us also because it's a very new format to get feedback from everyone and to see how we can build a story and how it can speak to people with this new way of telling stories. And it has been for us a rewarding experience I think in here too to I mean there are some elements some people see that other people don't see and there are people that really are attracted to those bodies that are entangled and really are captivated and see and have those pictures in their mind for you know so that tells them really something deep. I suppose it depends on what you see, on how you see it. But it's true that the best way to experience it is really to be in another pace somehow. So we try to build a pace so people get a bit lost and accept to be lost somehow in that world.
[00:22:34.691] Antoine Viviani: I'm pretty amazed actually by the feedback that we have. People have been crying at the end of the experience because they were so emotionally confronted with the situation, the stories, these very intimate voices. Wow, this is... This is pretty amazing, you know, to have, because it's such an experiment for us, you know, to create this hologram, to create this set, to invent this world. And some people are so emotionally engaged, you know, with just the sound and the soundscape. I mean, it's super encouraging. Yeah, yeah, really. And so we really want to be more into that kind of mental, temporal maze, you know, that want you to explore and make it even sometimes very strange, you know, because... So in Rennes, in France, it's... So you have a suit, you know, it's very strong. And some people feel really challenged, even physically, but in a good sense. I mean, being in another dimension, as really explorers, and then you really look into things differently. This is really great, actually, I think.
[00:23:51.705] Pierre-Alain Giraud: It's always a bit being on the edge when you work with these technologies, because you create with the constraints of the technologies, and we try to push the boundaries. So you're always on a fine line, trying to show what you want, but also put back by technology. But it's also the beauty of it, so we're always in a fragile space to create, but that's also what makes us want to do more all the time. So the experience using these new technologies for us, speaking of a subject questioning our faith in technology, was very interesting because it was always a battle with the technology somehow. We don't know if we won the battle or not, but we think we will push it through the months and the years we will develop that project. It's an ongoing project that we really want to go along with the development of technologies. So yes, that's probably for some the beauty of it and for others a drawback, let's say. But yeah, we're on this edge now with this project.
[00:24:56.997] Antoine Viviani: It's been such a struggle, we could say, to make such a big installation with all these scenes and all this. I don't know actually any other AR project that has this kind of big content and big space. Maybe there is, no idea, but I don't know any other one like that. But this has been so challenging technically. It's been really, really... I mean, we've almost been crazy, going crazy, been working so much on this. But what was great also about that, the good side of that, is that we brought together an amazing, great team of visual artists, composers, actors from different worlds. So there is, for instance, Gabriela Frederiks Dutyr, who is a very good friend and compatriot, I would say, of Pierre-Alain, who lives in Iceland. And she's really an amazing, amazing visual artist. She has done all the first artwork of the first album of Björk, you know, for instance. And she's creating these very otherworldly landscapes and atmospheres. And it's been so great to be able to make her work on a piece like that, that involves a story and just... holograms and something she has never worked with before and invite Valger Sigurdsson, an amazing composer, to join that also. We have a team now, so it's been such a struggle, but now we have such a solid team, you know, with crazy people. We think that they can connect anything to anything together. We buried, for instance, in the ground, you know, half a piano, a mechanic piano, and ran under the ruins. and there are small triggers, small hammers in the ground that hit the piano, sometimes just to create a specific sound or specific moments or specific scenes. And that is created using a specific curve on Reaper that a friend, a developer hacked in order to integrate that with the IoT of the room and to hack the HoloLens. I mean, it's crazy. We have the feeling that we can connect everything to everything now and this is very promising for everything we can do now. Questioning our technology using the latest technology is a very challenging idea, but it creates a lot of new ideas also, and that's great.
[00:27:12.434] Kent Bye: And finally, what do you each think is the ultimate potential of virtual reality and immersive storytelling, and what am I able to enable?
[00:27:21.455] Pierre-Alain Giraud: Well, what we did with this project, we had to create new tools and I think one of the great things is we created a tool which enabled us to direct holograms in a way. So, we filmed people and objects, but an important thing is so you can film people and then you can really place them in a space and you can make them interact and you can really choose where they are very easily. So that's a very great potential. So we can potentially go in any place and in 10 minutes replace the holograms and really do a directing job of remaking scenes from different temporalities, different people that never went, were together, you know, put them together, invent stories. And I mean, that's a crazy thing. and put them directly inside the HoloLens. So that's a tool, I think, that we can use in many other projects, which is very promising.
[00:28:20.664] Antoine Viviani: I would love to be able to do this installation, for example, in nature, you know, at night or in the forest or something. I'm sure that will be possible. That could be possible somehow. It makes new things possible and I think ultimately what is really so interesting and so inspiring today with immersive experiences is this idea that these different layers of reality that we are exploring, you know, with all this, in a sense, connect us differently to our, actually, all the invisible worlds that are around us, you know? And I think this is very, very inspiring. And yes, it's accelerating and it's going with, somehow, in scary directions also, you know, and with such a loud noise. In a sense, it's a way, I think, for us as Western civilizations, you know, also to question the invisible around us and to see things differently. And I think we need that. And I think we really need to cross boundaries between art and cinema and use technology in an inspiring way. And so, for me, that's the goal, to connect us differently spiritually also.
[00:29:29.327] Kent Bye: Yeah. Is there anything else that's left unsaid that you'd like to say to the immersive community?
[00:29:35.099] Antoine Viviani: go to Iceland to the National Gallery.
[00:29:39.022] Pierre-Alain Giraud: All those tools are only tools like we always had, like cinema was at the beginning. So now we're exploring those new tools that are very promising, I think. But we should always use them just as tools to serve a certain storytelling. So I think we came to this decision of using AR because of the story and not the contrary. because we wanted to reveal the spirits of a place so there was nothing better that we can think about than AR for that. So I think it's always good to remember why we are actually using those tools and use them for what they are.
[00:30:19.863] Antoine Viviani: And I would say maybe just take advantage of the fact that it's such a new technique and world and tools to invent your own language and your own world, you know, and not try to apply the same format or the same ideas. Just use it in your own way because it could be infinite. Awesome.
[00:30:41.573] Kent Bye: Great. Well, thank you so much each for joining me today on the podcast. So thank you.
[00:30:44.934] Pierre-Alain Giraud: Thank you very much. Thanks a lot.
[00:30:46.821] Kent Bye: So that was Pierre-Alain Joule, as well as Antoine Vivonani. They're the co-creators of Solostalgia, which was showing there at Sundance New Frontier 2020. So I remember different takeaways about this interview is that first of all, well, this is an experience that's a HoloLens 2 experience. And so as you walk in, one of the things that I noticed that they're doing is that the backdrop was all black. And so you have this high contrast between seeing these holograms. And so you would essentially walk up to these little balls and it would open up and you would see a volumetric capture of a person who is representing this ghost from the past who's kind of haunting this place. And they have different parts of a story that you can listen to a bunch of them and try to piece together a larger narrative. so when you actually click near one of these balls and it kicks into this volumetric capture of somebody basically sitting there and going through some sort of monologue you have to be looking at it and if you look away then it stops and so you have to keep your reticle focused on it and it's also you have to be standing in a very specific position because you have to like see it from the right angle so The way that they created this experience, it actually kind of forces you to stand in one spot and to really listen to it. And I would have much preferred being able to kick off something and maybe walk around and have this dynamic experience with it. But I found that by doing that, I couldn't hear it as well. Or yeah, I just had general troubles getting the specific content as to what was being said, because the very first hologram that I kicked off, I heard a little bit and then I walked away and then I came back and then I just wasn't able to hear all the. specific bits of the monologue. So I personally found it difficult to piece together the deeper story of what was happening. I got the sense that, you know, this is some time in the future and that these were ghost holograms, but yet, you know, what were they trying to say? It was difficult for me to piece together the deeper puzzle pieces. you do do this with one other person and then at one point the other person I was doing with actually tried to get my attention and to show me something but yet because we were seeing different things I wasn't necessarily knowing what he was trying to show me because it's something that he had kicked off but not something that I had seen and so really isn't designed to have any explicit social interactions and actually could detract if you do have any type of communication but this really is meant for you to have your own contemplative experience as you're going around and seeing all these different pieces. The monolith was actually quite contemplative and it was like the centerpiece and it sounds like in previous installations they've actually built it up a lot more and in this piece it's all like a hologram. So they're using the HoloLens 2 and as the docent was putting on me just kind of commenting of how a lot of the different technical limitations that they have to come over in order to show an experience like this and so because it's still in early days of HoloLens 2 it sounds like they had to do a lot of technical stuff just to even get it all working and all solid but you know, as I went through it, it all looked and worked great. I think the only complaint I have is that it was difficult to hear. I don't know if it would be better to have headphones, if it was a specialized sound, or if there's just very specific places that you need to stand in order to hear a lot of the larger story. And they also said that this is a subsection of a much larger installation and they have a much larger amount of time that you can kind of roam around for about 45 minutes. This was really cut down to like 15, 20 minutes or so, maybe even less. and really trying to give you a sense of being able to walk around. I only had a chance to of all the you know there may have been like 10 or 12 different orbs I maybe got the chance to see like four or five of them and wasn't able to connect the dots on how they were connected to each other in any specific way. But it seems like this is a type of experience that they have a larger film trying to look at these different things. And we're tasked with these different museums to build this type of installation. And because it is a site specific installation, there are lots of stuff where it makes you feel like you're walking on another planet. So in that respect, you feel like you're kind of walking into this other world and you have this kind of feels like this Stanley Kubrick, 2001 space odyssey type of feel with the monoliths and everything. And. you're in this sci-fi future trying to get a sense of what the deeper story and narrative is. So, that's all that I have for today, and I just wanted to thank you for listening to the Voices of VR podcast, and if you enjoyed the podcast, then please do spread the word, tell your friends, and consider becoming a member of the Patreon. This is a listener-supported podcast, and so I do rely upon donations from people like yourself in order to continue to bring you this coverage. So, you can become a member and donate today at patreon.com slash voicesofvr. Thanks for listening.
