Amy Zimmerman is a senior producer on the innovation group for media & entertainment at Unity Technologies, and she helped to start the Unity for Humanity contest there. We talk about her inspiration for the project, and what type of projects that Unity is looking to find with their Unity for Humanity program.
Unity is one of the two major game engines that have been fueling the immersive entertainment revolution, and so they’re very interested in supporting projects that not only push forward the technology & immersive storytelling capabilities, but also make some type of social impact. Zimmerman is also seeing how the interactive affordances of XR will start to move beyond just educating and entertaining, but also potentially help to cultivate new behaviors, cultural shifts, and even directly address other issues (especially around medical or education applications).
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[00:00:05.412] Kent Bye: The Voices of VR Podcast. Hello, my name is Kent Bye, and welcome to the Voices of VR podcast. So in today's episode, I'm continuing on in my series of looking at the VR for Good movement. In part one, I'm looking at the larger economics and ways to support and sustain these different projects. And today's episode is with Amy Zimmerman of Unity. She was one of the founders of the Unity for Humanity contest. She saw experience that was called Elfin Keeper, and Elfin Keeper helped open up her heart and her mind as to what's possible with immersive technologies to bring about change. She felt a direct impact for how that experience changed her, and she wanted to find a way within Unity to be able to support these larger social impact projects. And so she talks a little bit about the history of the Unity for Humanity and some of the projects that they've supported, as well as what they're looking for specifically, and the projects that they're trying to fund for Unity for Humanity. So that's what we're talking about today's episode of the WisaSFVR podcast. So this interview with Amy happened on Thursday, January 9th, 2020, at the Impact Reality Summit in Seattle, Washington. So with that, let's go ahead and dive right in.
[00:01:15.904] Amy Zimmerman: My name is Amy Zimmerman. I'm a senior producer on the innovation group for media and entertainment at unity. And I began my days at unity under the made with unity program, which supported creators from all sorts of disciplines. And through that, I started to see more and more creators using our technology to create. projects for good, specifically in XR. And as a result of that, found that we needed to support and nurture and foster more of an environment for these creators to succeed. And therefore I produced what was called the Unity for Humanity contest last year, which actually began our first year with Terminal 3. We supported a project called Terminal 3. which was a project about racial profiling, and took that to Tribeca. And then the second year, really, Unity for Humanity really took off, and we opened submissions to the general public. And this year we awarded the prize to Surround Vision, who created an AR app that measures and visualizes air pollution. And they were the 2018 recipient of Unity for Humanity.
[00:02:21.908] Kent Bye: So, that's what I do. So yeah, maybe you could give me a bit more context as to your background and your journey into doing what you're doing now.
[00:02:30.947] Amy Zimmerman: Okay, so I started working in the film industry on set for big feature films up in Canada, but my passion was documentary filmmaking. I really wanted to be a documentary filmmaker and somehow change the world via that medium. But I came to work for Unity on the Made with Unity team because I started to become really passionate about creators and what other people were making, especially with technology and how they're solving really hard problems and creating really innovative content. my focus shifted obviously from film into technology and While I was working with all of these different creators, I actually tried Elephant Keeper. And Elephant Keeper was a project where, in VR, where you go in and you actually feed and care for a baby elephant in the Kenyan elephant sanctuary. And when I came out of that experience, I think it made me a better, not only a better producer, but a better global citizen. It really, like, blew my heart open and realized what I could do to make the world a better place, but also the power of this medium and what it can do to make the world a better place. So now my passion is really supporting creators working in the impact space. So that was my trajectory from the film industry into being very passionate about XR for Good.
[00:03:51.741] Kent Bye: Is that the same experience that's showing here?
[00:03:53.122] Amy Zimmerman: It is, right behind you, right here. So I encourage you to try it and get your heart blown open and then you'll become a better global citizen too. It's pretty spectacular.
[00:04:03.017] Kent Bye: I actually just had a chance to try it earlier this morning and you are in this wildlife conservatory where This baby elephant has its mother killed and then you have to do all these nurturing things You have to wet its ears with a sponge and they have like these I guess mixed reality objects where they have them tracked in VR but you're actually touching them and so you kind of see this one-to-one correlation and you're doing these different things with making sure the elephant is cool and drawing some blood and measuring the heartbeat and feeding it milk at the end and I Guess thinking about unity as a game engine it started off by having people go around Shooting each other or different types of game mechanics, but you know this is using other aspects of that interactive game mechanic foundation that you have in a game engine and starting to adapt it. I know that Unity over time has been having more and more tools meant specifically for the filmmakers rather than, you know, the gamers. But I'm just curious how you think of that conceptually, of blending together what you know as this cinematic storytelling of film, but yet adding these new dimensions of interactivity into these types of immersive experiences.
[00:05:12.063] Amy Zimmerman: Yeah, well, that's a really good way of putting it. I actually think that that's going to be the future of this XR for Good sort of movement, is actually not only using the medium for cinematic experiences, storytelling, but amplifying the interactivity to the point where the technology or the project is actually going to be the solution to the real world problem and what I mean by that is we see it more specifically right now in the medical industry by people using VR as therapy actually reducing pain therapy or reducing symptoms of ADHD and that is becoming more and more the way that this is going is not just a passive experience but something that actually could have real world, real tangible results in our physical world. So yeah, that's where I see things going and that's why I think what started to happen now is real world solutions with our technology.
[00:06:11.885] Kent Bye: And as you are getting submissions in and seeing the range of different projects, how do you start to make sense of this landscape of these different either industry verticals or domains of human experience or specifically around, you know, you have like medical applications, you have enterprise applications, you have aspects of identity expression, but there's all these moral dilemmas. There's a lot of things that are wrong in the world that are happening right now. And so Unity for humanity. How do you make sense of that landscape of humanity and these different verticals? Do you look at the medical applications? Do you look at the storytelling? Do you look at the different issues that are happening in the culture or such like racial profiling? So how do you make sense of it all?
[00:06:53.098] Amy Zimmerman: Yeah, that's a really good question. So that comes down to like know who you're pitching to. I mean, Unity is a 3D development platform. So ultimately, you know, we'd love to take on all the causes, but we would select projects or look for projects that are really pushing the way Unity is used and in ways that we've never seen before, solving really hard problems with the technology. So that's the way that we look at projects. not only what impact it could have and how it's going to be distributed and put out into the world to actually yield that impact, but how is it using technology in a really unique way or pushing the boundaries of what unity and what the medium can do. So that we always skew what we're looking for towards that, towards how people are pushing these boundaries technically, not just in storytelling or with their cause, but using the technology in a really innovative way.
[00:07:48.252] Kent Bye: I unfortunately wasn't able to make it to Tribeca where Terminal 3 premiered, but I did see Asad J. Malik's Jester's Tale at Sundance last year and I understand that there's kind of a similar twist at the end where he's playing with integrating live actors in a way that gives you this volumetric experience, but then you're confronted with the embodiment of the person who was just represented symbolically in this volumetric. And so maybe you could talk a bit about the Terminal 3 project and what was it about that project that you decided to kind of take on.
[00:08:20.897] Amy Zimmerman: Good question. So again, just like Elephant Keeper, Terminal 3 was one of the first impact projects that I ever witnessed. And Assad and I had a great conversation about what he was trying to achieve and how he was using, I mean, at that time it was AR, which is, you know, that's even more challenging. So to see someone use AR in a narrative documentary type way was something that we had never really seen before. and telling that really hard story with a really hard medium like that was duly challenging. So that was the sort of a perfect project that we were really interested in helping support because it really did push forward the use of AR for documentary or for narrative storytelling. So we hadn't seen anything like that before and that's what really blew us away was that's a challenging way to tell a story and he did it successfully.
[00:09:15.807] Kent Bye: Well, I haven't had a chance to try it, so maybe you could describe a little bit of what happens in the experience.
[00:09:20.008] Amy Zimmerman: Okay, so Terminal 3, you take the role of a border guard in Terminal 3, which is the terminal that everyone coming through the Middle East into the United States has to pass through. And so it's a HoloLens project, and a hologram appears before you, and you interview the hologram questions that are typical for when you're entering the United States. Again, you're the role of the border guard and at the end of the interview with the hologram in front of you, ultimately you have to choose whether they get into the United States or not. And in the end of the project, I don't know if I want to tell you the end because you should see it, but it's challenging your own bias, right? It's putting you in the role that you would probably yourself never be able to be in, but putting forth really challenging questions and giving you a really hard situation and then you have to make a decision. And so it's really challenging your own bias and taking a look at what you really believe in. It makes you think about your choices in a way that like a passive documentary film on the topic probably wouldn't have because you really are in that hot seat and you really do take on that role. It's a controversial piece and in a really good way, it just really makes you think. Yeah.
[00:10:28.068] Kent Bye: So for you, what's next with Unity for Humanity? Like, do you have another session? Do people apply? And then what type of stuff are you giving out? Like what's next with the Unity for Humanity?
[00:10:38.956] Amy Zimmerman: Well, right now we're exploring ways that we can grow the initiative into 2020 and beyond. So right now we're trying out different ideas and exploring different avenues of how to make that bigger and better and how we can support more and more creators going forward. So we're in exploratory mode at the moment.
[00:10:58.902] Kent Bye: And what do you think the either biggest open problems that you're trying to solve or open questions you're trying to answer with this project?
[00:11:09.459] Amy Zimmerman: What we're trying to solve is... trying to support and foster a community where these projects get made and that they get seen and that they get distributed and to really help creators through that journey in whatever way that we can. So that's one problem that we're trying to solve is to foster a community of creators who are going to essentially could change the world with this content. That's definitely one. And the other thing that Unity always wants to help solve are creators problems in what they're doing. So solving those hard technological problems as they create these projects. So we're always available and here to help creators solve their really hard problems in production. That's another one.
[00:11:54.627] Kent Bye: There's a bit of a chicken and egg problem I see with the distribution side, because there's the existing gaming content, but this feels like maybe a different audience or different distribution platforms. Maybe this isn't necessarily the greatest to have some of these narrative experiences on Steam or Oculus Home. So how is Unity thinking about the distribution aspects of this, given the current dynamics of the existing ecosystem?
[00:12:18.900] Amy Zimmerman: Can I speak not from Unity's perspective, or just from my own experience and what I've learned? So distribution, yes, is a very big challenge. What I am seeing now and what I think is a really fascinating avenue to explore for distribution for this type of content is in the conservation, science-based, nature, learning, education type for good content, that location-based entertainment of this type of content could be a really great avenue for distribution. And what I mean by that is, for example, where I'm from in Vancouver, Vancouver Aquarium is no longer allowed to keep cetaceans in captivity. So there you have infrastructure, a building, people wanting to come in and learn more about nature, about conservation, about these animals, but we can't have them in captivity any longer. So these institutions are starting to turn to XR, of how we can use XR in place of actually having actual animals in captivity, how we can use XR to continue to teach, continue to spread the message, continue to allow people to have these profound experiences with these animals by using XR in place of the actual animal itself. So if people, if creators start to think like those types of places as places of distribution, I think it could unlock a lot of potential for funding for places to exhibit their content and essentially help the world evolve into something that's less destructive.
[00:13:47.838] Kent Bye: Well, for you, you talked a little bit about your own phenomenological experience of feeding the baby elephant and how opening up of your own heart around becoming a global citizen, I think you said, that experience gave you. But when you think about us being here at the Impact Reality Summit and these social impact experiences, there is a desire to make some impact. And so how do you start to either quantify or make sense of that impact? And you have these pieces, but then what's the next step of actually trying to either measure or tell the story of what that impact actually is?
[00:14:21.121] Amy Zimmerman: I love this question because I feel like I'm always going to be like a student of this question. It fascinates me how we measure impact and it will always depend on the project, what the project is aiming to do. You know, I see it sort of threefold. I see impact measured by reach, so awareness, downloads, press mentions, how many people go and visit the LBE, so essentially how many eyeballs you get on the project. That can be a measurable way that you've create an impact because undoubtedly it's going to reach people and change people's, maybe it's changing their behavior, the way they spend their money or whatnot. But reach is often a measurable way to measure impact. The other way is output. So if your project You know, the call to action is to donate money or to sign a petition. Those are also measurable ways how you can create impact. So, you know, you raise X amount of dollars or you receive X amount of signatures. So output can be a way that we can measure the impact of these projects depending on the call to action. And the third thing is the actual change, that it feeds actual change. And by that I mean some people are creating projects to get in the hands of policy makers. So it doesn't matter if it reaches 4,000 people at a film festival, it matters if you get it in the hands of the people who are actually changing policy. And if it gets in those people's hands and change is made, then bam, there's another way to measure impact. So it really depends on the project, but those are sort of like the three major ways that I see that you can tangibly real-world measure the impact of your project.
[00:15:53.245] Kent Bye: I know that the Oculus Kickstarter came out in 2012 and then got in the hands of developers in the spring of 2013. And so we're about six and a half, seven years into this now. And there have been a number of different projects that are out there. Do you know of any success stories of XR for Change for impact of little anecdotes that you have that you can point to to say this project had this impact on the world?
[00:16:18.582] Amy Zimmerman: Well, the team that we awarded Unity for Humanity with, their ultimate goal is to change policy. And they have been invited by the UN to attend the UN climate summits. They were just at COP. So they're on their way to having great success with changing policy and getting it in the hands of the right people. So that's sort of a success story that's starting to evolve. And I feel like they're going to have great success in getting their projects in the hands of the right people. So I can't wait to see what they do with that. I mean, look at my own experience with My Africa and Elephant Keeper. I mean, there's a success story. I mean, I viewed that. I felt that I personally became a better global citizen. And then this type of content inspired us to create unity for humanity. So, I mean, I feel like that's success, changing people's minds and sparking different initiatives to support this type of content. So, I know that could be a success.
[00:17:19.487] Kent Bye: Yeah, for me a personal anecdote is that at Sundance a number of years ago there was a piece by Condition One where they were doing this direct action where they went into this chicken farm and they were giving a whole 360 video of the conditions there and they actually were pulling out some of the chickens that were about to die and they give them medical treatment so they wouldn't die within the next few hours. But it was really impactful to see the conditions of these chickens and it actually viscerally gave me this experience of like, oh, this consumer decision I can make in the grocery store Was now all of a sudden I was in a relationship to the deeper context of where this had come from I feel like there's so much of how we get all of our stuff that is like out of sight out of mind and I feel like that part of the role that VR could be is to show the story of this context and to for you to be in deeper relationship to it and I think the goal being for lots of people to change lots of little tiny decisions that they make every day and that adding up to a big change and I feel like that's the thing that is harder to wrap your mind around because it's such a personal thing but I feel like philosophically that feels like to me how this is going to play out is that there are the policy makers and the laws, but there's also a lot of decisions that have to come from people because it's not going to be legislated or there's nothing other than a culture that is supporting certain behaviors and actions. And being able to change those behaviors and actions actually are very difficult, but I feel like XR is powerful enough that it can actually give you a direct experience that can perhaps bring about some of that deeper change.
[00:18:51.513] Amy Zimmerman: I 100% agree and I don't think we should discount those little individual changes that we all make when we experience something that really has great impact on us and I think that's successful. If it changes one person's way that they spend money or they eat food, I feel like that's a measure of success. whether 40,000 people also follow suit. Again, it's those little incremental changes that... There's that great quote, like, never doubt that a small group of individuals can change the world, because that's the only thing that ever has. I think Margaret Mead said that. I love that quote, because it's so true. Like, here we are, a group of creators and artists, setting out to try to change the world, and don't doubt that we can, right? Because we can. with these projects and these initiatives. You have to start small and grow it.
[00:19:41.427] Kent Bye: So you get to go around and see a lot of different types of content at these different festivals. So for you personally, what type of experiences do you want to have?
[00:19:51.655] Amy Zimmerman: Personally, I'm really curious and invested in conservation, environmental conservation and animal conservation. So I am really excited to see where that leads and how people use XR to lessen the suffering that we put on to our natural world and to our animals, which is why I really think that going after institutions like aquariums and zoos and science-based museums with XR content to replace some of the things that are in there now is a really great next wave of where we can see XR. So that's where I'm personally excited to see the industry going is how we can conserve our natural environment through XR.
[00:20:33.597] Kent Bye: And so we're here at the Impact Reality Summit by Kaleidoscope VR and Vulkan Productions here in Seattle. So as you're here, what are some of the things that you're doing with this community here?
[00:20:45.531] Amy Zimmerman: Good question. I'm learning. I'm learning right now. I feel the best way to learn is to be hands dirty on the ground, ground zero with all of the creators. It's one thing for me to sit behind a laptop and receive pitches and hear, read emails on what people are doing, but to actually sit face to face and have conversations with what people are making, have made, or want to make is really, really important. It's the only way that I can really learn on how to shape unity for humanity into something that's reflective and useful for the creator community. So I'm here to learn and to listen. And I'm also here to be inspired, because there's nothing more inspiring than impact content for me, personally. So this is the epicenter of everything I love to hear about and learn about.
[00:21:36.347] Kent Bye: And finally, what do you think the ultimate potential of immersive technologies and immersive storytelling might be, and what they might be able to enable?
[00:21:45.871] Amy Zimmerman: Right. We touched on this a little bit earlier, but I feel that the potential is that the technology will be the tool and be the solution that will inflict the change. So by that I mean that we will use technology to actually be a solution. So for example, there are doctors out there who are using VR for therapy. So that's using VR to be an actual tool that's going to solve a real world problem. In this application of it, it's actually using VR for pain management. So if we can use VR and harness the power of VR and that empathy, that it actually creates this real world effect. That's pretty fascinating and the other thing I think where we're headed to is that VR essentially can become a place or XR can become a place where we can gather as a community rather than flying all over the world. We could actually use XR to reduce our carbon footprint, bring us together as a community and actually have these conferences and these film festivals and these showcases in a virtual world, I think that that will be a really interesting application of virtual reality that could save the world. So I feel like the technology itself is going to be the solution to some of these problems. That's where I see it going.
[00:23:01.355] Kent Bye: Yeah, I agree. Events like this eventually being in VR, and then you could have whole film screenings where everybody would already be in their headset, and you could just go into the space and see the thing, and you wouldn't have to worry about the limited space. I think it would be really cool. I'm looking forward to that as well. Is there anything else that's left unsaid that you'd like to say to the immersive community?
[00:23:23.015] Amy Zimmerman: Just that your projects change our world, and they change the way that people think. And I say that from my personal experience. I had no idea that technology and these projects could have this type of impact, and it truly does. It's made me, I think, a better person and a better citizen, and therefore, I think it's made thousands of people better people. So keep creating and keep making positive change, and you're changing the world. So, thank you.
[00:23:52.330] Kent Bye: Awesome. Great. Well, thank you so much for joining me. So thank you.
[00:23:54.531] Amy Zimmerman: The best. Thank you.
[00:23:56.252] Kent Bye: So that was Amy Zimmerman. She's a senior producer of innovation group for immediate entertainment, but unity, and she's one of the founders of the unity for humanity contest. So I have a number different takeaways about this interview is that first of all, Well, one of the big characteristics that they're looking for in supporting different projects is to see how you're going to use the technology to push forward the storytelling in a new way. Maybe the technology is already there and you're doing things that they never expected and it just helps other people see what's possible with the technology. Or you're asking them to do things that aren't actually even possible in the technology and you're helping to push forward their technological roadmap. I think in particular, that's what Unity seems to be interested in is like these technologically innovating stories that are really pushing forward what's possible technologically. So the other thing that was interesting about this conversation, it actually made me take a step back. And as I am trying to put together this series of XR for Change and VR for Good, you know, one of the things that Amy said is that, you know, they're not just interested in the stories, but to see how the virtual reality engagement and interaction could within itself start to be a solution to some of the problems. You can start to look at different medical applications and different ways of education. And so for me, as I think about the different domains, those domains are going to start to blend together and blur together. And so the different aspects of storytelling and what's an application for medical treatment, ways to allow you to connect to your friends and family. And I think she's right in the sense that there's going to be a lot of ways in which there's the blurring of those lines as to what's a passive story experience and what's actually going to be an immersive experience that's going to be a direct agent for change. And to see how you can start to directly tie in solutions to the problems within the technology itself, which I think is like a fascinating conceit. But as I was putting together this series, you know, that then opens up all the doors to like, okay, all the different medical applications that could be called, you know, VR for good. And I think those, are legitimate use cases, but I think in this series, I'm specifically focusing on the storytelling aspects and starting to come from the perspective of people who are coming from that storytelling background and that center of gravity of story. And I think I'll have entire series both on education and medical applications as well. I've got more than enough interviews that I've done over the last number of years that can do this huge deep dive as to what's happening specifically when it comes to training, education, medical applications, and all that stuff, which I think is going to be a huge part for this larger VR for Good movement. To take a step back back into the storytelling aspects Terminal 3 by Asa J Malik is an experience that I'm gonna be talking to us it in the next interview where Jester's tale was kind of a follow-on from that experience but has a lot of the similar conceits and so I'll be diving into what he was trying to do with each of those projects and he's more than willing to kind of talk to the full experience and even if they don't have an ability to see the experience he wants to be able to talk about the deeper message that he's trying to get at and I how he's using the different technologies because you know these are experiences that only a small handful of people can get to see and so he wanted to just expand out the total audience for people to be aware of the different work that he's doing. But the, the three points there at the end, in terms of quantifying the impact, I think they're really interesting just because I think I see this as a thread throughout a lot of the different conversations. And Amy said that there's three basic ways you can look at it. You can look at reach, you can look at output and look at change. So the reach is just the awareness, the impressions, the press mentions, um, how many people get to actually see these experiences. So you can start to see how many people are just being aware of the work that's out there, as well as the people that are covering the work and broadcasting out to other people who don't get to directly experience it. Then there's the output for whether that's the different signatures or the nations, a very quantified number to see that you're able to bring about very specific change. But I think that one of the big things that I see is bring about change for specific policymakers. So highly targeted to be able to look at an issue, to take it into that specific context, to show it to them, and to try to bring about larger change from that. The winner of the Unity for Humanity contest was Surround Vision. They're actually there pitching another project as well, but they won for a project they're going to be taking to the UN Climate Summit and showing this immersive experience to the different policy and decision makers that are going to be at that summit. Yeah. And this, this Margaret Mead quote, which I love, which is never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed. It's the only thing that ever has. So I think that's a little bit where virtual reality is right now is that it's, it's not necessarily like these experiences that are going to have like hundreds of millions of people see them yet. I think. Right now it's still in the phase of trying to create an experience, see what's possible and to get it into the right hands. And the thing is, is that the experiences that you create may be shown to other people. You may come up with some innovation, which someone else will see. And then that is this additive process. I see it as this early days of VR, where anybody that creates an immersive experience has the potential to be this inflection tipping point, which then kind of cracks open new possibilities. We're still at this phase of trying to suss out, you know, what are the ways to best tell story? What are the ways to blend this aspect of storytelling and immersion and interactivity and engagement? And how do you fuse all these different things together? And I think it's vitally important to still continue to do that innovation, even if it's not, you know, getting at these mass scales, because I think it's still important. And you never know what type of experience is going to get out there and make a huge change. Like Amy said, this Elephant Keeper experience that was showing there at the Impact Reality Summit, you know, is something that really opened her mind and really opened up her heart up to the possibilities and led to the creation of the Unity for Humanity contest. So when you think about ways to be able to make these small incremental changes, I think the thing that I get excited about is the types of experiences that are going to connect the dots and make the invisible visible, and to really inspire people to change their behavior. Changing adult behavior is one of the hardest things to do. And so if you can do an immersive experience that actually shows the larger story, the larger context, and then gives people a simple action that they can take day to day, some of their regular behaviors and actions that they can shift, then You know, I think it's going to be things like that. That's also going to be like this huge impact on the world. And obviously that's a lot harder to do, and it's even more difficult to try to quantify. But like Amy said, maybe the technology will be able to allow us to start to track this more. Maybe there'll be ways to allow us to reflect on ourselves and our own patterns of behavior and be able to actually bring about these specific changes within our lives and in the way that we behave with the wider world. So one last point is that, you know, there's a number of other different producers that I didn't get a chance to talk to all the different producers. I just wanted to give one shout out to Oculus and their program for Oculus for good. They've been in this space for probably the longest of all the other different companies, and they've been pairing up different creators with projects for a number of different years. I've done a number of different interviews with people that have involved in that project. Celine Trichardt with the key. And I've got another piece that was called Home for War. Uh, that'll be talking to the creators there. They actually won the Impact Reality Summit pitch for a piece that they're going to be doing on language and losing languages around the world. But the Oculus for Good program is one that I see at a lot of different film festivals and a lot of works that they've been doing amazing work. Unfortunately, I didn't have a chance to talk to anybody from Oculus about that project yet. I keep having these near misses and. Try to do interviews live at these conferences. And I just haven't been at the same place at the same time or met up and be able to coordinate or facilitate or schedule conversation there. But I just wanted to put that out there that I hope to talk to somebody from Oculus for good at some point, just to be able to get a little bit more of the story of how they've been involved in this space for a long, long time. Cause I think they've been a big part of helping to fund a lot of different creators that have been, you know, getting into this space as well. So that's all that I have for today. And I just wanted to thank you for listening to the Voices of VR podcast. And if you enjoy the podcast, then please do spread the word, tell your friends and consider becoming a member of the Patreon. Just $5 a month. It's a great amount to give. And yeah, I do rely upon donations from people like yourself in order to continue to bring you this coverage. So you can become a member and donate today at patreon.com slash Voices of VR. Thanks for listening.