I interviewed Iris van der Meule about Lesbian Simulator on Tuesday, November 18, 2025 at IDFA DocLab in Amsterdam, Netherlands.
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Rough Transcript
[00:00:05.458] Kent Bye: The Voices of VR Podcast. Hello, my name is Kent Bye, and welcome to the Voices of VR Podcast. It's a podcast that looks at the structures and forms of immersive storytelling and the future of spatial computing. You can support the podcast at patreon.com slash voicesofvr. So continuing our series of looking at different experiences at IFA DocLab 2025, today's episode is with a really fun piece called Lesbian Simulator by Iris van der Mule. So this is a really playful and interactive story. It's in VR. So you're in VR and you're choosing an embodiment of becoming a lesbian. You choose a name and you're assigned an astrological sign. And you kind of go back and forth between discovering your identity as a lesbian and then you are able to come out of the closet by actually using your voice and saying, I am gay and having these different fun, playful, interactive moments. Sometimes you have good experiences coming out. Sometimes it's not so good. And so it's a way of exploring the full spectrum of all the joys and pains of, being a lesbian in today's culture. And so it's a really great interactive narrative piece, and I think is really an exemplar for ways that you can use different agency, interactivity, and participation to really amplify the story that's being told. And so in this interview, we kind of go through and walk through each of the different chapters because I wanted to really unpack the way that interaction, dynamic gameplay mechanics are really kind of amplifying different aspects of the story that's being told. And You're kind of going through a chapter-based journey through these different series of experiences. So yeah, hopefully you'll be able to have a chance to play through it. Iris at some point wants to make this available on Steam just to address the broader gaming community. And I think there's a lot of ways that these messages are going to land through this type of interactive experience to kind of explore these deeper concepts and ideas. And also it's probably going to be a great piece for some streamers to be able to play on a stream and do a play acting. So anyway, lots of really interesting, provocative and fun experiences within the context of Lesbian Simulator. So we're covering all that and more on today's episode of Voices of VR podcast. So this interview with Iris happened on Tuesday, November 18th, 2025 at IFA Doc Lab in Amsterdam, Netherlands. So with that, let's go ahead and dive right in.
[00:02:24.895] Iris van der Meule: Hi, I'm Iris van der Meulen and I'm a digital artist. I really like making VR. I studied animation film, so I'm actually from an animation background. But during my school, they bought the Oculus DK2 and they said, we don't know how it works, but if you want to use it, you can use it. And ever since that time, I tried teaching myself to use VR as a medium and figure out VR storytelling. And made a couple of projects in art school. And then I graduated and I started working on my current project, Lesbian Simulator. That now, six years later, had its release at ITFA.club.
[00:03:05.170] Kent Bye: Nice. And maybe you could give a bit more context as to your background and your journey into working with VR.
[00:03:11.243] Iris van der Meule: Yeah, so I actually learned VR a bit from YouTube. Actually, the first VR experience that I saw was from Jeffrey Lilleman called the Nail Polish Inferno, which was also like a very animated virtual world of sort of his own museum. And when I put that headset on, I was like, This is insane. As an animator, of course, you make your own worlds, your own stories, but you also always look at them through a screen. And all of a sudden, with that VR headset on, I was in the world, and I was like... This is so cool. I want to learn how I can tell my stories in this virtual environment. So I started to watch a lot more VR works at that time. There was a really cool VR studio in Breda called Studio Opvis, who worked a lot with also more poetic storytelling in VR. They translated poems to also an animated virtual world. And I did my internship there, which taught me a lot about using the 360 space to communicate a story. And yeah, I just started experimenting a lot with it at school, like, hey, I can animate, I can make my own 3D worlds, but how can I actually carry the viewer in a world and also convey a certain emotion, since it's such an immersive medium, of course. So yeah, and I just did a lot of trial and error, trial and error, I went to a lot of exhibitions like this to get inspired and just look very closely at what other makers are doing and try to learn from it. Awesome.
[00:04:39.553] Kent Bye: And so where did the lesbian simulator begin? Maybe just give a bit more context for the catalyst or the spark of inspiration for this project.
[00:04:47.532] Iris van der Meule: Right. So, I mean, it's actually a bit of a sad story because I'm a lesbian myself. And when I came out, I was 17 and I lived in a very small village in the Netherlands. And yeah, there were not a lot of openly gay people there. When I went to art school, I started living in a more like, how do you say it, rural area. Yeah.
[00:05:09.125] Kent Bye: Rural. It's hard for me. Yeah. Rural.
[00:05:11.486] Iris van der Meule: Yeah. And being like a lesbian in the public space with a girlfriend and I started experiencing that not everyone agrees with my sexuality, even if it's just holding a hand in public space. So I got a lot of responses and it happened so often that it started to feel normal. And one day I told my family about the things that I experienced, like getting groceries, but also going out or even at work where people would just give me weird, a bit of like sexual harassing comments. And my family was like, oh... Oh, we didn't know you experienced that. I thought the Netherlands was safe and you can get married here and there was no issue. And that's when I felt like, hey, this is interesting because the people that are close to me that also accepted my coming out are not even aware of the societal issues that we have in a country that is considered safe on paper. But in reality, it's experienced very differently. So that's a bit of the conceptual start. And I was working already a lot with VR and I thought like, hey, this could be... It's also a bit of a cliche, but I was like, I could show people maybe what it's like to be as a lesbian and what these small forms of discrimination are in our society by putting them in a certain environment that I designed to show this specific issue about. It was very natural for me to pick VR because I've been using it for quite some time now and it's so immersive and you just get a certain attention span from your viewer when using VR that I thought would fit very well with my idea for this project.
[00:06:50.868] Kent Bye: Yeah, I really enjoyed this project and I thought it took me on a really interesting journey. It was fun, lighthearted, comedic, but also playful, interactive, immersive. And so maybe you could give me a sense of where you began in terms of doing the world building, the character design. You have like a whole series of different simulations that then creates an arc and a journey. And so just trying to get a sense of like where you begin when trying to like tell a story like this.
[00:07:19.665] Iris van der Meule: Right. I began, actually, I always sort of begin with VR sketching. I really like using Quill or Tilt Brush as my sketchbook. Because to me, it seems very natural to sketch and play around in the medium that you want to use. And of course, I also have a little dummy where I write little notes and little sketches. But I always try to go in the drawing mode in VR as soon as I can. And first, I started sort of collecting... for the narrative, like certain elements that I wanted to talk about in the work when it comes to this discrimination. So I started writing these things down. So it's, yeah, for me, the coming out is a big thing. Like it's a big, scary moment that you have to do. So yeah, the coming out is for me a big, important element because it's a quite scary thing. You never know how your friends, your family, whoever you come out to is gonna react. And it feels like it changes your life from that moment on and you can't really take it back. So that was an element I wanted to have in there. I wanted to have an element that showed a specific sexual harassment that lesbians encounter a lot. And also, yeah, being in the public space and how sort of very minor, subtle things that people can say are actually very hurtful and they might not be aware of that. So I started sort of categorizing that. But as I went on, I was also thinking like, hey, I also don't want this work to be traumatizing for queer people themselves, because what if I make this work? And it's like, hey, this is what it's like to be a lesbian. And then it's all like sad, miserable things. That's not fun for a queer person to see. So already early on, I started to realize like, hey, I actually... I also want to show the beauty of being queer and the fun parts of being queer and also like prevent it for the queer community to sort of alienate them to show like, hey, we're all just humans. Most of us fall in love. We have a lot of things in common. So I also wanted to put in elements that for the queer community are recognizable and for everyone that are fun. So there's like a rave that you can go to and you have to flirt with girls, which is difficult, probably also for straight people, you know, not only for lesbians, but also the part of exploring your sexual identity. Yeah. And there was just a lot of rooms to create this sort of representation slash Easter eggs jokes for the queer community as well to make them feel seen. And that's I think when that balance came, it's yeah, I wanted to be like the end thought that you would have after this experience. I wanted it to be like a happy thought and not like, oh, being gay is awful. No, it should be being gay is fun. But this is also the reality. So maybe we can work on this together as a community. Yeah.
[00:10:08.114] Kent Bye: Yeah, I remember that you were in Venice at the production bridge and showing me some of the concept art. And I'm just curious to hear a little bit more around like you moving from original sketches within Quill or Tilt Brush. And then at what point do you start to then move to Maya or Blender? Just talk a bit about your character design process.
[00:10:26.425] Iris van der Meule: Right. Yeah, I designed almost everything in Quill. And it took a long time. And in the beginning, I kind of used the characters sort of, you know, you want to make a quick sketch. So it's like, okay, I just make a stick figure and give him some clothes and a little smile. And I start designing the world because you want to be quick. But yeah, after using these characters for so long, I started to sort of love them. And I thought, hey, they look quite basic, but also quite silly. And I was like, I want to keep it this way. I like the way the sketches look. And yeah, I started working with a 3D modeler because my 3D model skills were a little bit outdated. And I was like, okay, there's people that can do this a lot faster than me. And that leaves more time for me to design the worlds because I did all the concept art in VR, which was also a lot of like... pre-work for the 3D modeler because they never had to model from scratch. But I'd say like the first one and a half year, it was just me sketching in VR. Then I had my first 3D modeler and I started to just give him scenes and we start to figure out like, hey, because yeah, if you draw on quill, it's like a bit messy 3D. It's a lot of polygons. So he just tried his best to remodel basically everything and keep it as close as the sketches that I made. Because I really liked, yeah, if you sketch in VR or even in real life, like you can't ever really draw a super straight line if you don't use the straight line tool. And everything started to become like a little bit wobbly and wonky, as we called it. Also a bit like maybe sculpty. And that's something I really liked. It's like the handwriting, but in VR instead of on a physical paper. So I told my 3D model like, hey, whatever you do, I know this probably breaks all the things you learned, but everything needs to be asymmetrical and try and keep my handwriting as much as you can. And afterwards, I also thought, you know, let's just make this a rule because it's a lesbian VR and nothing in this project should be straight. That was the joke. So also not the geometry. Yeah.
[00:12:28.598] Kent Bye: So there's no straight lines.
[00:12:29.418] Iris van der Meule: There's no straight lines. Everything in there is like even a little bit asymmetrical. So yeah, I started working with the 3D modeler, eventually also an animation team and a couple of more modelers because it's a lot of worlds. eight levels, but there's also some sub-levels in one level, so there was a lot of modeling to do. And that's just the pipeline we made. I drew everything out in Quill, I exported it to them, gave them notes, and they just remodeled the whole thing, and then we put it in Unreal Engine back together. But I already basically did all the level design and stage design or whatever you want to call it in Quill because it's fast and easy. So in a way that made it for the team a bit faster to make everything. And for me, it left a lot of room to really play around with how everything should look and how big it should be or small. And yeah, it was a lot of fun. Very intuitive.
[00:13:23.359] Kent Bye: Yeah, and there's quite a lot of interactive components that are in this piece, and I think it feels like a game in a sense. It's like a simulator, but there's also a cinematic quality of going from scene to scene. And so I'm just curious if you were iterating on those interactions, or if you were also creating cinematics and seeing how things were flowing, or if it was more of building one thing out and then seeing how it fit together to the next stage. Yeah.
[00:13:47.321] Iris van der Meule: Yeah, it was a bit, I think, the last thing. I really made them as sort of separate islands. The core idea actually was to make it a lot more interactive and a lot more free-roaming, I'd say. But I quickly learned also that's a lot of extra work. And when we started testing things, you easily see that people can get stuck or... Yeah, sometimes even... It was quite hard to design, in my opinion, because you have the gamers who... see everything very quickly and they move on easily by themselves. But then you have the non-gamers who really need a lot of extra nudges. And if they don't have them, they will just stay in a scene forever sometimes. So that made me... Well, I had to rethink... a little bit the approach about it, and that's why I think it became a little bit more cinematic than I intended it to be, just to keep this flow going, because in the end I felt like, well, that you can live through the story is the most important part, and that you can do the minigames is my second favorite part. So in a way I felt a little bit sad about it, because I guess I wanted to go more into that gaming department. But yeah, I think what I just said, communicating the story was more important and that's why some elements became a bit more cinematic.
[00:15:07.952] Kent Bye: Yeah, and you start off the experience where you're able to choose an embodiment, an identity, all these different choices. You pick a name for yourself, and also an astrological sign is assigned to you. So maybe you could go through the process of what you were trying to accomplish with giving people an embodiment and choosing their identity.
[00:15:27.495] Iris van der Meule: Right. Yeah, because I thought it's called Lesbian Simulator, of course, and I was tapping a little bit in this VR simulator game gimmick that we see a lot of games on Steam is like, oh, Surgeon Simulator or Job Simulator. Like, I thought that was really fun. But I thought, well, what do you need if you want to be a lesbian? Well, you need a body. And we were thinking a lot in the beginning, like, do you play a specific character? Like, is it more that you step really in the eyes of someone else or of a character that's based on me, for example? I was like, no, I really want people to sort of have a little bit of autonomy as far as I can create that within this piece. And with that, I think, yeah, creating a known avatar is a big part because... It's also fun, I feel like. I love creating avatars in games. And it makes you, in my opinion, connect a bit more to the story, the world, because it's like, this is you, this is your part, and now you can go with this body in this world. Also because it looks very cartoony. Yeah, I wanted you to be part of that world as well, so you can see your own little cartoony body. And also a second important part was for me that the introduction, the character creation was some sort of tutorial. So it's not only creating your avatar, but it's also learning a little bit how this world is going to work, which is just grabbing things and touching things and speaking. So I wanted to implement all interactions in the creation of this character. And yeah, about the horoscope part, it's a typical sort of lesbian joke that we always ask, like, oh, what is your horoscope? Like, what's your zodiac sign? And then you sort of are like, oh, maybe we're a good match and maybe we're not. So I felt like this needs to be in here for the reference, for the joke. It's a big part of lesbian culture. Yeah.
[00:17:16.963] Kent Bye: Nice. And so I'm trying to remember the very first scene. Is the first scene that you choose a girlfriend or is that... What's the first scene that happens after you get your embodiment?
[00:17:26.867] Iris van der Meule: You go to... Yeah, I call it paradise because it's like a little tropical forest. It first starts with a small introduction story that is like this sort of princess fairy tale to give you a little bit of a context of like, hey... Yeah, this is what you've been told all your life. Like, yeah, you are supposed to get a boyfriend and you're going to live your happily ever after. But then you realize that you're not very interested in all these boyfriends or princes in the story. To give you a bit of context, and then you go into the first level where I made like three little areas that are also references to things from queer culture. Which for me were very canon when I was figuring out my own sexuality, which was mostly behind the PC. So it was searching for a lot of representation, movies. So in the first scene you have to eat all these fruits and find lesbian representation, but there's not a lot.
[00:18:22.493] Kent Bye: So you're choosing apples and sometimes it has representation, other times it doesn't.
[00:18:26.502] Iris van der Meule: Yeah, and if it is representation, you get a point because you earn points throughout the experience. And if it's not, you don't. So it's a little fun interaction. You can also skip it if you want. So that was a little bit of the exploring part. Initially, that scene was much bigger, but due to budget and time, I could only leave three mini-games in there. Yeah, and that scene you also can pick a tarot card that decides for you what your first girl crush is going to be. So there's a couple of options. So every time, if you would play it again, you could have a different girl crush. And the last part is where you do the very known BuzzFeed quiz, the Am I Gay BuzzFeed quiz, which I heard from, I mean, I did it myself, but a lot of people I know from the queer community just take this quiz. It's a really stupid quiz because it's like, oh, have you ever kissed a girl? And do you like it? Like the questions are very like... obnoxious, but everyone did it. So I was like, this has to be in here. It's just, yeah, it's a form of representation. Yeah.
[00:19:28.106] Kent Bye: Yeah. And that very first scene, you have like this panels that you see. I don't know. I don't remember if they're animated or not, but they're kind of like a cartoon graphic that you are kind of panning through. And then you you have these three little mini games that are the first part of like discovery of like seeing like things that you are getting clues and seeing representation and having a resonance and getting to the point where you're discovering your identity. And then what's the next scene after that, as I'm trying to remember?
[00:19:56.912] Iris van der Meule: The next scene, you go to a rave and this whole part still plays, because I actually divided the whole experience in two chapters, which I mean, I don't really talk about it, but that was sort of a design thing for me that the first couple of chapters take place before you come out of the closet. I don't know if you say that in English too, but we say we come out of the closet.
[00:20:18.611] Kent Bye: Yeah, yeah, that's what we say.
[00:20:20.709] Iris van der Meule: And the rest happens after. So, yeah, the first level you explore your identity and then lesbian goddess, your personal guide, thinks it's time that you start to meet some other queer people in this still sort of safe space. So it's a rave with only other girls. And of course, she gives you the opportunity to flirt with girls and give them drinks. Yeah.
[00:20:43.226] Kent Bye: You have to kind of catch a glance and then take a risk of giving them a drink. And then sometimes they'll like you and other times they won't. And then if they don't like you, then you have these carabiners that are like the points. And so you will lose a couple of points if they don't like you. But if they do like you, then you get a point.
[00:20:59.201] Iris van der Meule: Yeah, yeah, that's true. So there's a little bit of like, you have to pay a bit attention indeed to their glances because they will, like the more they like you, the more they will actually look at you and change like their smile. If they don't like you, they look a bit sad.
[00:21:14.349] Kent Bye: Yeah, I found myself not always able to catch the glances and it felt a little bit random for me in terms of, but I was trying to see when they did at least looked at me, but it was kind of a fun recreation of going into like a, like a virtual dance scene with all these floating islands. You walk through the doors. And so there's a number of different opportunities that you can dance. And it's also fun because you're kind of like just moving around and dancing. And in the exhibition here, you have a couple of places, you have your own installation, but you also have like in the VR gallery, but people are up and walking around in this kind of free roaming VR. And so it's very embodied in that sense. And you're kind of moving around and yeah, I enjoyed the rave scene and dancing and and taking my chances at whether or not I was going to successfully flirt or not.
[00:21:58.423] Iris van der Meule: Yeah, I think a lot of people like that scene the most. When I see people, they're dancing and stuff. If I ever had more time, I wanted to create it a bit more difficult. There's more forms of interaction because now it's really simple. You give the drink to confirm and your only hint are the glances. So in another world, if I had more time, I would give them more things. Maybe you could talk with them or dance with them. But I think for now it's fine and I think it's a lot of fun. Yeah.
[00:22:30.485] Kent Bye: Nice. And then at this point, is that when you start to come out to the closet or? Yeah.
[00:22:35.054] Iris van der Meule: So after this, yeah, it's sort of time, sort of, of course, this is sort of a fast speed train through the process of being gay. So like, oh, you figure out your identity. Oh, you go to a rave and now it's time to come out. But yeah, that's the next thing that happens because, yeah, it's part of it. And I mean, for each individual, this happens in a different time in their life. For me, it happened quite early then in my teens. So yeah, in this scene, the point that I wanted to make a bit, and it's also what Lesbian Goddess says, is that coming out is not really a one-time thing. So for queer people, it happens almost every day. If you meet someone new, you always have to think of like, is it safe to say it? Should I say that I have a boyfriend? You know, you always have to sort of assess the room and the situation and yeah, think about what you're going to say. And so lesbian goddess makes a bit of a joke like, hey, we're going to come out. And yeah, for lesbians, usually this happens a lot, but you only have to do it three times today.
[00:23:33.701] Kent Bye: There's lots of different doors in this space and you have lots of different options. Is it predetermined that you're always going to go to the same scenes or did you create like a more than three scenes of coming out?
[00:23:43.991] Iris van der Meule: There are six and it picks it randomly. The initial idea had more than six, but yeah, we didn't have the budget to make them all. So we left it at six because I really liked the part that it would be a little bit randomized so you could have different scenes than I do. What I did think about is that, yeah, because a coming out can be difficult, it can be not fun, but it can also be really loving in some way. So it really depends on who you have in front of you and what they're... state of mind is and what they think about queer people, of course. So I made sort of three sets. So you have first a sort of bit of a silly coming out. So it can either be in front of an alien that they took up in New Mexico, I think.
[00:24:27.924] Kent Bye: Yeah, that's the first one that I got.
[00:24:30.045] Iris van der Meule: And the other scene you can get is that you have to come out in a theater stage. So you have to do a Romeo and Juliet play. So you have your co-actress up in a tower and she says the first lines of the balcony scene and then you come out and she's like, oh, that's not your line. That's, oh, I'm really okay with it. Yeah.
[00:24:48.464] Kent Bye: Yeah, so you're asking people to actually speak the words, I am gay, and it's like listening to you. And being in the festival context, it was an interesting experience just because I'm in the VR headset. I don't know who's around and who might be walking by and overhearing me. So there's a bit of like safety in being in VR, but also like this potential awkwardness as you come out. Yeah. And people may not know what the experience is. And then, yeah, I've heard a couple of people who've had a little bit of that experience of like people being decontextualized for what was happening in the VR experience, but then afterwards sort of like having this situation. But at the same time, it creates this kind of tension that gives some weight to it that would be different than if I were to see it in like the privacy of my own home. It's when I'm out in public, then it gives additional like hesitation or at least, you what that means for people. So anyway, I just wanted to comment on that. It's an interesting dynamic and maybe you could speak a little bit of that decision to kind of have people actually speak it out.
[00:25:48.232] Iris van der Meule: Yeah, I mean, it was exactly for the reasons you said, because this was actually also the first scene I made. So the first idea for this project was this scene. And it really, yeah, of course, the difficulty of this project was... thinking about and designing like how can I translate the experience that I had for example as a lesbian to someone that is not queer themselves and I can never fully give that experience because it will never be the same but there are things that I can play around with and so I thought exactly like you said like hey I know a lot of people already feel a bit awkward having a VR headset on and like knowing there's a lot of people around them in an exhibition space And then I did an other experience a couple of years ago where you had to speak. And I also felt it myself that you're like, should I, like, do I really have to speak? So you're already sort of thinking and feeling a bit awkward. That was my experience a bit. So I just remembered that and was like, okay, I can maybe recreate this, a slight portion of this tension that the real coming out might feel like by, yeah, forcing you to, well, forcing, you always have the agency to not say it, of course, but you won't get points. Yeah. So yeah, I really wanted to play around with it. And we made a prototype of the scene early on and tested it on a couple of people. And yeah, we saw it worked as I hoped it would be, that people felt this sort of pressure. Even the people that played it that were queer themselves also still felt this sort of like, ooh, yeah, it takes me back a little bit, but indeed, should I say it? And what will the people around me think? So yeah, it plays with people's brain.
[00:27:24.247] Kent Bye: Yeah, I think it manages to kind of create a simulation that is able to kind of get to the deeper truths experientially. So I thought it really worked quite well. So then the second set, I got the older grandmother scene and she didn't take it as well.
[00:27:39.029] Iris van der Meule: No. No, so indeed the second set you can get is either, yeah, I call it homophobic grandma or the homophobic parents. So yeah, your second coming out will always be more of a negative experience just to see like, hey, yeah, there's also people that, yeah, and especially in grandma's case, it's really sad, but it's actually what my grandma said. And I feel like when people say this, so for context, grandma says like, oh, I accept gay people as long as they don't show it in public. And that's what my grandma said. And it felt a bit like, OK, but that actually means you don't accept this because you don't want to see it in public. But my grandma didn't realize that what she said was actually really painful. You know, she thought she was being progressive. So I thought this is such a subtle thing that we don't really talk about. We always talk about the more extreme forms of discrimination as well, which are also important. But I felt like these little conversations are also really harmful and I wanted to give them a place in the VR. The parents are a bit more extreme, so they will really say like, hey, I didn't raise you like this and we're going to send you to a doctor. So that one is a bit more extreme. But yeah, there had to be room for this, I think, because it's a reality for a lot of people as well, sadly. Yeah.
[00:28:57.352] Kent Bye: And then the third one, I had some friends who were like more chill about it or they were kind of joking or it seemed like it was okay, but also they were kind of joking like, oh, I hope you don't hit on me or something like that.
[00:29:07.459] Iris van der Meule: Yeah, the last scene is either it's your friends. So I wanted the last scene to be a bit more positive. But with the friends, I also wanted to make this comment that I heard a lot of friends say when I was younger of like, oh. I hope you don't have a crush on me, as if any lesbian would fall in love with any girl in the world. It's just a bit of a dumb comment. But then I also wanted the other friends to step in and be like, of course, it's a bit in this extreme American Mean Girls reference, because I think Mean Girls is a really fun movie. So sometimes I just put references in there that just needed to be there for my own sake. But I wanted to lighten the mood as well a bit after the more heavy one. And the other scene you can get there is a biblical God. So he's God and he sits in a bathtub. So he's gigantic and you're very small. And I'm not religious myself, but I grew up in a religious part, the south of the Netherlands. So I did get religious studies when I was a kid. And somehow that always stayed with me. And I always thought about this, like, hey, why? Because, yeah, a lot of people that are religious in the Netherlands don't really agree with being queer. But I thought like, if God is so loving and he made people in his image, why would he hate queer people then if he made them himself? So God also responds in a way, like first he will say like, I'm going to send you to hell. And then he's like, ha ha, no, just kidding. Why would I make like queer people and hate them? Like I love them and they're much more fun than straight people. So it's like a really silly dialogue of, countering a bit yeah this idea not to say that all people that are religious are homophobic definitely not but I thought I wanted to make a statement of like God if he's there he would love all of us yeah
[00:31:01.038] Kent Bye: And then I think the next scene, you start to go into getting a girlfriend out of a vending machine, and then you go on the date, and you start to hold their hand, and then you're sort of in public situations that then you are getting either bad looks in a restaurant or then having to be in this enclosed space on a subway and kind of fighting off. And so you're starting to get into this kind of experience of being connected romantically, but then also all the other implications of... being out in public and holding hands. And yeah, I'd love if you maybe just say a few words on this more romantic phase.
[00:31:37.270] Iris van der Meule: Yeah, so it's actually... It's such a bit of a duality because you come out and you're like, yes, I did it and now I can be publicly gay and you fall in love and you just want to have a relationship like anyone else. And then, yeah, you realize, oh, yeah, well, not everyone likes it if I'm gay, apparently. So that's why these scenes come a bit later, of course, because they happen if people see you in public and being openly gay. So in the restaurant, yeah, you hold hands and people... will respond to that in a bit of like an aggressive, well, passive aggressive way. I mean, they don't attack you, but the restaurant grows really, really big the longer you hold the hands. And they will say things like, oh, this gay bullshit is messing with our kids or like you're ruining my dinner. Like, why are they so sexual in public? And you're just holding a hand. You know, there's nothing sexual about that. So yeah, I really wanted to show that this does happen and it's ridiculous that it happens because it's really about holding hands or just existing in a public space and why are queer people not allowed to do that. So yeah, designing that was more difficult, of course, because I wanted to highlight this. But yeah, like I said, at the same time, you're happy that you can finally be out in public and then this happens. So after these scenes i didn't want to end also on these scenes you know because it would end the experience a bit sad of like oh okay as soon as you come out everyone is mad at you and you get sexually harassed in a subway that's not awesome so i wanted the last scene to be more uplifting and also show the fun aspects of being queer and also sort of the support and love of the queer community itself because that is for me what makes me actually really happy and really proud to know like i'm not the only one and together we can also make a change and that's when you go in the pride scene
[00:33:39.332] Kent Bye: Yeah, well, just to go back to the previous two scenes, because I think there's a couple of points I just wanted to kind of flesh out a little bit. One was that you have a mechanic in VR where you're reaching out and holding the hand. And then that's sort of triggering all these other negative reactions. And so what was interesting is that after I did this experience and as I was walking around Amsterdam, I was noticing when there was like same sex couples that were holding hands in it. gave me this perspective of like the weight of what that means. Uh, whereas before I wasn't necessarily like thinking it was a big deal or big thing, but it kind of put me in the shoes in a way that realized that, Oh, actually like just this act of holding hands is a brave act that they have to potentially open themselves to being attacked. And so it was interesting to go through the lesbian simulator and then have that shift my perspective as I was walking around in Amsterdam, which is a very open and liberal city from the outside perceived, but still there's these implications of that.
[00:34:30.939] Iris van der Meule: Yeah, it's actually really nice that it's opened your eyes a bit like that. Because it's actually what one of my coaches on this project said, who's also a queer person. She said, yeah, like holding hands for a same-sex couple is a little bit of a statement, even though you don't want it to be. But to some people that don't agree with it, it's like, oh... They're doing that in a public space. So for me, you really think about when am I going to hold my partner's hand and when do I let go? And Amsterdam is indeed a much safer place than the places I lived before. But yeah, I kind of wanted to reflect that in the experience as well of having to choose also. Because if you don't hold a girlfriend's hand, she becomes a bit sad and she starts to give you nudges of like, oh, I really want to hold hands and why can everyone else do it but not us? So I kind of wanted to show like the stupid situation that you're in because you're on a date, you want to hold this hand. But if you do it, there is this response. But if you don't do it, yeah, you're a bit sad because you can't be who you want to be. Yeah.
[00:35:35.342] Kent Bye: Yeah, really overall in this experience, I loved how each of the interactions of each of these scenes are driving the narrative forward and so connected to the story in a way that I think really creates this embodiment and embodied experience, but then is kind of amplified by how the story is then reflected back. So yeah, I don't know if you were like thinking around the ways that for each of these different interactions that you would have an interactive component because you have a simulator, but also like the narrative component that is landing even deeper.
[00:36:01.727] Iris van der Meule: Yeah, it was really thinking of what interaction could really feed the story, but also, yeah, I mean, I can't really put you in my shoes ever, but how can I simulate a little bit what it might be like by using these game mechanics, for example, yeah, the coming out, but also the next scene, the subway scene, it's a bit more of a... Well, I actually learned a lot from horror games for that scene, particular Five Nights at Freddy's, which is a task juggling horror game, meaning and it's not as scary as that, obviously, because the lesbian simulator doesn't have jump scares. But I kind of want to keep you busy by giving you like two things you have to do, like close the doors of the subway and spray the demons whilst they're coming at you and saying really disgusting sexual things.
[00:36:52.472] Kent Bye: So just for the context, they're presenting as male characters who are trying to convert these lesbians to like, oh, I'll be the one to convert you essentially.
[00:37:00.754] Iris van der Meule: Yeah, because these were responses I got a lot, especially when I went out with my girlfriend. It's always like, yeah, if you have sex with me, I'll turn you straight. You know, like I can change your mind. And it's ridiculous. And we don't ask for these stupid comments. And it's also something I think women in general experience, like harassment. But with lesbians, it's sort of... this extra thing of like you're sort of their sexual dream because yeah lesbians are highly sexualized sadly and then they also feel the urge to like tell you and it's quite intimidating and I wanted to yeah make a scene about it and then also choosing an environment where I feel like it happens a lot like subways and trains are not always the nicest places for women to be so yeah I thought it was a good environment to let this thing happen um
[00:37:52.850] Kent Bye: Yeah. And as I was in that scene, you have this mechanic of these kind of shadow monsters or that are kind of slowly coming at you, but there are also these two buttons you have to hit and then they're coming out of the doors. And so you feel like you're being threatened. I never thought that I was going to like have the game end and I was going to have to like start over. Like it didn't have that sense, but it still had this sense of pressure and anxiety that these things are coming at me. I didn't want them coming at me and I had to defend myself.
[00:38:18.223] Iris van der Meule: Yeah, that's a bit the idea. I mean, it would have been fun in a way that you had to start over. But I know for a festival that really doesn't work because it's also almost at the end. So I fought in a way of like, OK, you can go game over, but your girlfriend will save you before it's sort of too late. Also because, yeah, if you think about it conceptually, it's also a sad statement if you would die in that scene. No, you will win either way. So either you defeat them or your girlfriend will defeat them. And you will get points based upon how long you could fend them off, basically. So you can't really lose. But I thought, yeah, it's a nicer message to end with that you can defeat these things.
[00:39:02.645] Kent Bye: Yeah. And the last scene was interesting. The pride scene. I love this sort of joyous and celebration. And there was also a game mechanic. And I was wondering afterwards of like, how much am I paying attention of trying to get the points and doing this basically shooting mechanic versus kind of like really taking it in or having... Because you're sort of sharing the love, spreading the love, but also turns into a little bit of a shooter type of mechanic. And so you're going through this parade. And yeah, I was wondering at the end, I was like, oh, I wonder if... I felt like I could have, I found myself ended up just shooting as trying to up my score. But then at the end I was like, Oh, is that really what I do? I regret that decision of like, should I've just like taken it in, in another way?
[00:39:44.309] Iris van der Meule: Right. I heard this a lot when we were testing it as well, that people felt a bit like, do I pay attention or do I go for the highest score? I think maybe for the exhibition version, it was maybe a bit too difficult as well. The reason why it's a shooter game is also because originally I wanted to have it be more like a game, right? And I wanted to have more game elements the further you proceed. And yeah, because I really like interaction and I really wanted to give a very interactive story. So I kind of left it in, mostly for the more interactive people that game more than the most people in the exhibition space, for them to also have... Yeah, to have the satisfaction a little bit of like, it's a very interactive piece. But again, this was the struggle of, yeah, you also want to tell a story and how do I find this right balance? And I think in this level, yeah, you have to choose a little bit. I also designed Lesbian Simulator in a way that I eventually want to put it on Steam and I wanted it to be replayable. And not that people will play it 10 times, but maybe two or three times to figure out like, how can I get all the points? And how can I get all the... different scenes, like how can I get all the little stories that I missed the first run? So that's also a bit still in that level of like, OK, the first time you will never get it right because it's a lot. There's a story, there's a whole world that you go through. But the second time you'll get better and the third time you'll be better. But I also realize that in an exhibition space, people only see it once. So I think it's also been on my mind of like, yeah, should I adapt the exhibition version to make it a bit more easy so you can focus more on narrative and have the Steam version be a bit more difficult? So there's like more gaming balancing. Yeah, it's something I'm still thinking about.
[00:41:32.321] Kent Bye: Yeah, that's a really interesting point because I think that if you look at the Steam culture, that's almost like the target audience that you would really want to have people experience it. And if it's a fun game, then there's sort of an interesting dynamic where they want to come back. So, yeah, I think the target demographic there, I think, really dictates that decision. But I can really understand why you made that choice.
[00:41:52.564] Iris van der Meule: Yeah. Yeah, and as I have to be honest, my main goal was to design it for that Steam audience. But of course, you also want to do it to festivals and we want to bring it to museums and schools. So that's why the narrative changed a bit. And I also let a couple of interactions go and made it more cinematic. I think it has a nice balance now, but for the Steam version... Yeah, it might actually be too easy because even my brother came to play it and he's like a die-hard gamer and for him it was already quite easy to do all the targets. So I was like, yeah, we need to think about some balancing and there was also some elements not in here yet. So they will be in a later version. which is collectibles, because I think that's also a big Steam thing and also encourages to play it again. So there would be like little Pokemon type cards, things that's called celebrity crush cards that have famous lesbian people on them that would also be hidden. So that could increase your score. But also for a festival. Yeah, again, people are not going to play it a couple of times. So that's in for another round. Yeah.
[00:42:59.002] Kent Bye: Do you have your slate of lesbian crushes that are the ones that you know are going to be in there?
[00:43:03.806] Iris van der Meule: Yeah, I already had to cut down the list because I think I had like maybe 30 people on there. Like, for example, I mean, for me, Lady Gaga was the biggest, even though she's more of an icon for gay men. For me, she was my Lesbian Awakening fan. But we have Chapel Roan, she's mentioned already in experience. And Cate Blanchett, who's not queer, but sort of a queer icon. Billie Eilish. There's a whole list of girls and we had to sort of choose like who's going to make it? Because there's only so much levels that we can put these things in, right? Like it's not an open world game. So, yeah, it's a tough call.
[00:43:41.587] Kent Bye: Yeah, and at the end, you have an opportunity to reach the end, and then you kind of take a selfie with your girlfriend, and it then produces this photo that has your score that you got, but also the name that you chose, your astrological sign, and then the sign of your girlfriend, and then your girlfriend's name. And then if you do it in the installation, you actually get a printout of the photo. I did it in the VR gallery, so I didn't get a printout of it. But it's a nice little artifact of the experience that people can look back on and share it and talk about it.
[00:44:09.505] Iris van der Meule: Yeah, I thought it would just be fun because also when we did the testing, people are like, oh, I was sad that I had to say goodbye to my girlfriend. And of course you do, because you need to move on. But I felt like it would be really nice if you can sort of have something that reminds you of this experience and of your girlfriend. And also with the score, of course, I hope people start bragging a little bit to their friends, like, look, look at my score. I did really well, you know, so I hope that... giving a ticket like that in an exhibition space would create a bit of more like a discussion about the project in a fun way. Yeah.
[00:44:43.921] Kent Bye: Yeah. Like I said, overall, I really appreciated the ways that you were using that interactivity to really augment the story. And overall, it felt like this real fun overall experience that also had these messages that I think really stuck with me. And so what have been some of the different reactions you've gotten so far?
[00:45:00.765] Iris van der Meule: Yeah, people are mostly just having a lot of fun and said they didn't expect it to be in a way that it's fun, but it also teaches you about this part of reality. So it's, yeah, learning in a fun way instead of it being like a work that would point heavy fingers. Like apparently some people expected that and were surprised in a way of like, oh no, but I had fun. And yeah, it's 40 minutes, but everyone comes out saying like, it didn't feel like 40 minutes. It felt so fast and quick. And yeah, then there's, of course, a couple of queer people that have played it who came out, which really warmed my heart that they were like, wow, I've never seen something like this before. Yeah, there's so many references in it. I felt myself like I was seen in this project. So that's, of course, also a little bit my dream because I'm also queer and yeah, I want to help in creating more career representation in the world. And I mean, VR is compared to, for example, film and TV, of course, more new. So there was not that much. And yeah, they were excited that it was also that it had this positive part. For which I was grateful because I was scared that some queer people would say like, no, this was too much, like it was too intense. But I think the balance came out pretty nicely. And yeah, other people, even like my mom saying like, wow, I learned so much things about this. And also my position as a straight person and a privilege that comes with that. And that these people learn that they can also change. support the queer community and that it doesn't cost them anything so i think in a couple of ways it works as i hoped it would be and i just hope people yeah have fun experiencing it and they can take something home whatever that is yeah have you had a chance to see any of the other projects here at duck lab I have seen We Are Dead Animals so far and nothing to see here. For the rest, I have to still go. But they were amazing. I loved We Are Dead Animals because I think it's a very unique experience. I really like the mechanic of swimming to move around because it didn't make me motion sick at all. And it's just a really crazy cool idea to have these 3D-scanned dead animals and you can assemble them. When I read about it, it was like, oh, that sounds a bit morbid. But when you go in it, it was actually... I was surprised how much fun it was. And nothing to see here. I really love Celine. I think she's a genius creator and Aaron as well. And yeah, they just made a brilliant piece. I did it at the opening. So there were a lot of people also walking around that made it extra. Like, it's a really good project and really messed with my mind of like, who's really here and who isn't? Yeah, it was. I really liked seeing it. Yeah.
[00:47:47.199] Kent Bye: Yeah, I just ask because there's so many, a variety of different really strong projects this year that I think it'll be difficult for the judges as they're going through all the different projects. And they're so different thematically and also different ways that they're telling a story, but also like the ways that the story lands. But, you know, I think in terms of the interactive story genre of like VR and CGI driven animation, the way that you're able to tell the story and have it land thematically was just really strong. Yeah. Yeah. But in terms of what the judges think and jury, I think it's going to be challenging for them to try to figure out how to weigh the lesbian simulator against some of these other pieces under the same sky around the Palestinian genocide that's happening there. Yeah, there's just for me, that was a story that landed a lot. But, you know, I also really appreciated the experience that I had in lesbian simulator. But as a jury is going through it, I think it's going to be a difficult decision for them to try to figure it out.
[00:48:39.218] Iris van der Meule: Yeah, I think they're going to have a tough job because I think all the creators that are here are so talented. And yeah, what you said, the works have such a huge range and variety and new skills or new ways of storytelling. Visually, they're also all very different. And yeah, thematic-wise, it's also like, yeah, for example, my experience in Weird Dead Animals is more fun. And then we have these really serious war projects And I think for the jury, I don't even know how they're going to compare all these things together.
[00:49:10.766] Kent Bye: Yeah. Like the 36,000 Ways was really beautiful, poetic, like a very short three minute experience, but also really quite powerful as well. So like it was like more of a poem versus a novel or, you know, you kind of look at these different formats and lengths, but also the power that comes with each of them. So yeah. Yeah. Anyway, I just wanted to comment on that because as I think around the selection, the lesbian seminar was a standout. And also there's these other experiences that were moving my heart in other ways or other sort of dimensions that it's interesting just to see in the context of this field, how much you can cover the variety of human experience. And like, I just appreciated how you're able to kind of open up these different realms of your own experience, but also translate that through the medium to have unique and novel ways of having this immersive and interactive experience to explore that.
[00:49:55.109] Iris van der Meule: Yeah, yeah. I think I want to give big compliments to everyone here because I think they all did a great job. And being here is already, I think, the win, you know, that we can all show our works here and show it to also the audience and create these forms of awareness that I think we're all seeking in a way in each of these works. Yeah.
[00:50:16.176] Kent Bye: Awesome. And finally, what do you think the ultimate potential of this type of interactive and immersive storytelling might be and what it might be able to enable?
[00:50:26.986] Iris van der Meule: I really want VR to move to a more interactive realm because I really like the interactivity of the medium and I think it helps creating this immersion more. By creating these interactive stories, I feel like Yeah, you can touch your viewer in a certain way and give them maybe hopefully a sense of accountability for whatever the story is that you want to communicate. I'm not saying that it's stronger than film, but I think it just works different. And you can create this certain attention span for your viewer that I think can really sink in because you experience it firsthand, even though it is a simulated environment. I still really, really see potential in immersive media to help change our world to a more positive place. I know that sounds really cliche, but I think it does. Awesome.
[00:51:18.386] Kent Bye: Is there anything else that's left unsaid that you'd like to say to the larger immersive community?
[00:51:22.580] Iris van der Meule: I just hope we keep communicating. I hope we keep learning from each other. I learn a lot from my peers, and I think this community is so sweet and generous because everyone is sharing what they learned with each other instead of keeping it to themselves. I just hope we explore a lot new more things as the technology also grows, as it becomes easier, as it gives us more opportunity. As I said, I'm an interaction nerd, so I am curious to see what we're going to come up with in the next couple of five years when it comes to interactive storytelling. But I think the community is growing and we're doing really well. Every year the works just get better and better. And yeah, it's a fun community to be in.
[00:52:04.272] Kent Bye: Awesome. Well, like I said, I really enjoyed the Lesbian Simulator. And I'm also really excited to see how this could be a type of game that would be on Steam and then reach new audiences. Because I think there's been a challenge of a lot of immersive stories that have been relegated to just the festival circuit and small pockets of museums or cultural institutions but i do think that this is a type of experience that could live on a platform i think there's still like a very toxic environment there potential harassment i don't know if you have any like thoughts on that in terms of like yeah it just seems like it's a hostile environment
[00:52:38.638] Iris van der Meule: Yeah, I'm aware of it because I'm a gamer. I used to stream on Twitch a lot. And I had to stop because of this project. I was too busy. But I'm very aware of the gaming community is a very toxic world. And in a way, you could think of it as too toxic. We're not going to mess around with it. But I feel like this project... That's the thing. I want to put it out there. I hope it can make a change. But I'm also aware that it will probably get a lot of hate because this community is very judgmental, toxic, not very female friendly. But I don't think that should hold me back from putting it out there because there's also, I think, a community that would really appreciate this work. And by creating the style as it is, like this very cartoony, like animated worlds, by using a lot of humor, I hope people that like firsthand wouldn't say like, oh, I'm not interested in queer thematics would maybe still play the game because it looks fun and fun. Hopefully like a YouTuber or a Twitch streamer will make a good video about it and people are like, oh, this looks really fun. I'm going to play it. And then they play it. Then I had my time to sort of educate them and they can then do whatever that information that they want, but they at least have seen it. And that's a bit of what I hope for. But yeah, I'm aware that there will probably also be a lot of reviews and comments on it that are not going to be very nice. Yeah.
[00:53:56.223] Kent Bye: Well, it's speaking in a language of interaction, and I think that it's going to really resonate with the audiences. But also, I do think that actually, as you mentioned it, that this is probably a type of experience that would be very streamable and could be a performance that people go through and really play act and role play.
[00:54:11.912] Iris van der Meule: Yeah, I mean, that's what I hoped a bit with it, that it would be easier accessible if I made it in this specific style with this storytelling. I think there's room indeed for streamers to make a playthrough and play around with it and make their own character and idea with it. So I hope it will sort of have its own life on Steam or whatever gaming platform through the Internet community, because it's also a fun community. And I think through it, it can reach a lot more people than only the festival circuit. So I think, yeah, that's why I wanted to go to Steam.
[00:54:47.475] Kent Bye: Yeah, I think it's certainly going to find a cult following and it's a really compelling experience. And hopefully it's going to be able to win over some hearts and minds on this topic. And we can't expect any one thing to convince everybody. But I do think that it's going to help push the needle forward. So, yeah. Anyway, I really enjoy the piece. And thanks again for joining me here on the podcast to help break it all down.
[00:55:06.171] Iris van der Meule: Yes, thank you so much for having me. It was a lot of fun.
[00:55:09.659] Kent Bye: That's all that we have for today, and I just wanted to thank you for listening to the Voices of VR podcast. If you enjoyed the podcast, then please do spread the word, tell your friends, and consider becoming a member of the Patreon. This is a listen-supported podcast, so I do rely upon donations from people like yourself in order to continue to bring this coverage. You can become a member and donate today at patreon.com slash voicesofvr. Thanks for listening.
