VR filmmakers Joe Hunting and Max Willson are premiering their short documentary film The Reality of Hope at the Sundance film festival this week (online tickets are still available here from Jan 30 to Feb 2 and it’ll also be available later this year on Documentary+). Hunting’s previous film We Met in Virtual Reality also premiered at Sundance in 2022 and got picked up by HBO, and he’s continuing to document very human stories that are rooted within the context of virtual culture.
The Reality of Hope is shot both in VRChat and physical reality as it tells the beautiful and inspiring story of Photographotter traveling across the world to donate a kidney to his friend Hiyu, who he met within the furry community in VR. Hiyu is a world builder and avatar creator who has been a part of the team that has created some truly spectacular worlds as a part of the Furality conference (See the full list of worlds listed down below).
Facing kidney failure, Hiyu turned to social media asking for help seeking a donor, which caught Photographotter’s attention who then privately reached out. Photographotter documented the ups and downs of his inner journey in a VTuber video blog series, and The Reality of Hope fills in a lot of the gaps for the broader Furality community, the worlds that Hiyu has built, and the nuances of their friendship in hospitals of Stockholm, Sweden as the organ donor process requires a three-month commitment. The Reality of Hope is a beautifully-told story that shows the power of VR to forge deep and meaningful connections that proved to be literally life-saving.
VRChat Worlds featured in The Reality of Hope
- Furality Aqua: The Oceans of Luma by Furality
- Sylva: Treehouse Village at Night by Furality
- Luma: Crystal Forest by Furality
- Sylva: Lahaina Springs by Furality
- Umbra: Village of Umbra by Furality (video)
- Furality˸ F․Y․N․N․’s Gym by Furality
- VR Yoga by Castiel先生
- Exoplanet Journey by Niko*
- Tanuki Tunesǃ – タヌキトゥーンズ by Juno Tanuki
- Photographotters House V2 – by Photographotter
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Music: Fatality
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Rough Transcript
[00:00:05.458] Kent Bye: The Voices of VR podcast. Hello, my name is Kent Bye, and welcome to the Voices of VR podcast. It's a podcast that looks at the structures and forms of immersive storytelling in the future of spatial computing. You can support the podcast at patreon.com slash voicesofvr. So in today's episode, we're featuring the creators of a short documentary film that's premiering at the Sundance Film Festival. It's called The Reality of Hope. It was shot within VRChat, as well as within physical reality in Stockholm, Sweden. It's by the director, Joe Hunting, who created We Met in Virtual Reality, which premiered at Sundance in 2022. It's by the director, Joe Hunting, and is available on HBO Max, as well as Max Wilson, who discovered the story of Hiyu, who is a VRChat world creator who's a part of the furry community. He builds these amazing worlds for the Ferality Conference, and he had early kidney failure, and he put out a note to social media saying that he was looking for a kidney donor. And so a friend that he met within VRChat named Photographer, sent him a message saying that he was willing to become his organ donor. So it's a story around someone who found a friend online to donate his kidney. He travels across the world to go through this procedure. So they met within VRChat. And so it's shot both in VRChat as well as in physical reality. And so there's these interesting ways in which they're mixing, mashing these different realities together. But it's just a really beautiful short film that you can watch, actually, if you are in the United States from January 30th to February 2nd. There's still some online tickets available where you can get a Ticket to go watch this. And if you don't have a chance to see it next weekend, it actually got picked up by Documentary Plus. And so it's going to be online and different streaming platforms sometime later this year. So we're covering all that and more on today's episode of the Voices of VR podcast. So this interview with Joe and Max happened on Thursday, January 16th, 2025. So with that, let's go ahead and dive right in.
[00:01:56.934] Joe Hunting: My name is Joe Hunting, and I'm a filmmaker most known for my documentary work in VRChat, largely for We Met in Virtual Reality, which premiered at Sundance and was later acquired by HBO, released in July of 2022. And most recently, been fortunate to make a short film following an amazing story that we're going to talk about today. But that's me, very briefly.
[00:02:27.093] Max WIllson: Hello, I'm Max Wilson. I'm a filmmaker as well. And I mainly come from the corporate world. I've worked with Bentley, Hertz, and Tesla. And I've been a diehard VR enthusiast since 2016, I think.
[00:02:42.146] Kent Bye: All right. And so why don't you each give a bit more context as to your background and your journey into VR?
[00:02:48.260] Joe Hunting: Such a big question. My journey into VR was really in tandem with my interest in film. So I joined VRChat as a lover of games and immersive worlds, and then very quickly was interested in how this sort of environment, especially VRChat specifically, could be a vessel for story. And I got quite interested in self-image as a concept in that space and started making documentaries about that with people I was finding there and becoming close with. And so I made several short films from 2018 to 2020. and then decided to make my first feature film, which really sealed my place in the community, I think. And I've also become a curator for Raindance Immersive, a VR festival that hosts many events in VRChat. So since that initial curiosity of wanting to explore filmmaking and trying VR for the first time, being so inspired by the immersive quality of it, I couldn't come out of it. And I've been so interested in it from a participatory and experiential point of view, but then also a virtual production perspective in the greater film industry. That's really where my interests and experience lies.
[00:04:09.494] Max WIllson: My first kind of interactions with VR was in 2016 when the first like dev kits were coming out and I immediately got hooked after trying one and I bought myself a Vive in 2017 and been pretty much in and out of these virtual worlds ever since. VRChat back then was not much to look at, but then it really came into its own in 2020 and was just hooked ever since. Since then, I've brought my own craft of filmmaking into VR and I've assisted with communities there, particularly with Virality and assisting with just promoting their events and really just been in the heart and soul of the VRChat community ever since.
[00:04:48.328] Kent Bye: Right. Well, I had a chance to see your piece, The Reality of Hope. It's going to be premiering here at Sundance. So it sounds like that this story kind of got started within the broader community on December 28th, 2022, when Hiyu had posted a message to Twitter that he was dealing with kidney failure and he's a part of the furry community and a part of furality building worlds. And I watched Photographer Otter's video blog telling his side of the story and his inner journey. So maybe you could... set the broader context for the story that you're telling in the reality of hope and how this story first came on your radar and why you thought this would be a good story to tell in both virtual reality, but also in physical reality as well.
[00:05:29.575] Max WIllson: Mm hmm. Mm hmm. I've been in the social circles of Hayu and Otto for a while, and I've really watched Hayu go through some real trauma with his kidney failure. And I was overjoyed when I heard that he got a donor. And that led me to learn a bit more about their story and get to know photographer Otto. And I really saw that it was compelling. And I arranged to have some test interviews, get to really know both of them and how they worked on camera. And they were fabulous, absolutely just better than I ever could have asked for. And I polished up those test interviews and I took them to Joe. And ironically, we've been around each other's orbits for a while because we went to the same university, but never met. And Joe just signed on board immediately and just absolutely loved what Hayao and Otto were bringing to the table. And then within about a month, we were on site filming. It was an incredibly incredible turnaround.
[00:06:25.011] Joe Hunting: Yeah, yeah, thank you so much, Max. Yeah, I came onto the project, as Max says, kind of after he already had a little bit of a life with getting to know and forming the concept for the film. And for me, there is so much gratitude in... meeting people in person from VR and forging connections in VR chat that can really transcend into very close friendships and just the impact of Hayu and Otter's friendship. There was a lot of personal attachment for me because I'd just come off of a journey with We Met in Virtual Reality, which was so impactful to me, you know, not in a sense of health, fortunately, but in very much a sense of friendship. And so to be able to give back to that feeling with this film and to immerse myself in their journey of meeting and obviously going on this incredible journey of kindness and selflessness. Yeah, there was a lot of inspiration there. And so I'm really grateful that Max, you came to me. Also at that time in late 2023, I had something happen in my personal life that essentially told me that I was going to be stuck in Europe. for the next year. And so I thought, well, I mean, I was so lucky that Max came to me with this concept. And yeah, as he said, we took it very quickly from the initial seed of following their journey.
[00:07:44.614] Kent Bye: And after I watched the short film, I went back and watched Photographer Otter's video blog series where he has like 11 videos where he's going through quite an internal journey. And he mentioned in one of those videos that he was in a different time zone in Sweden because he was from New York City into Sweden. And that's how he actually came across you, Max, because you were in a similar time zone where his usual friends were not awake because he was in a different time zone. And so as you're putting together this story, it feels like it could have had a lot more stuff to make a full feature film because all the other stuff that he was going through, but the decision to make it a short film made it a little bit more poetic where there's a lot of other storylines that could have been dug into that you didn't have time to and the constraints of a short film format. And so as you were digging into this piece, when did you know that it was going to be a short film and not a feature film? And then how were you starting to put together the architecture of what the story was that you were even telling?
[00:08:41.945] Joe Hunting: Yeah, that's the question we were asking for quite a while from the beginning. I think initially we were unsure on the length. I think it's good to be flexible in that way. I think we knew and we had conversations about the length of the film. You know, on that first trip out to Sweden, we talked about the structure of the film and we wrote the story out. And it was as I was looking at the story, you could really see and feel the beats of what was important. And it just felt like it was going to be under 40 minutes. And to really suit distribution, we figured that under 30 minutes is probably the most flexible state to be in. I think part of that realization was this is a story that is so much about a friend donating his kidney to someone he met online. And that's really the root of it. And the VR context and morality and the sort of world around that story is incredible, but we really wanted to just hold onto that heart. And in a feature film, we felt that heart might be lost and it would have to have a lot of other stories around it for it to really justify the length and to be paced well and be cohesive and not to feel too long. And I feel we've achieved that really well in the shorts. And I feel that you step into this incredibly vibrant world that is for reality and the furry community. to then go deeper and intimately into this friendship and then return back into the broader context in a way that feels short and sweet and true to what their story was. Yeah, so it was certainly a question for us as well. There's a lot of material that was left on the cutting room floor, but overall we're obviously very proud of the film and felt the short film worked really well.
[00:10:31.457] Max WIllson: Again, making it a short was incredibly painful. We have some beautiful moments just lying on the cutting room floor. And again, we could make this a feature, but like, my lord, it is much better as it is now. We are connected with Hayu and Otto from beginning to end, and you're with them so emotionally. And any other fluff would have just not been welcome. And I'm very happy with the film's length right now.
[00:10:56.049] Kent Bye: Yeah, there was certain questions I had, like one of the things that we don't get a lot of information on is how they first met. And so maybe you could just give a bit more context as to their relationship and how they met and the larger context of the furry community of furality under which these friendships were initially formed.
[00:11:15.777] Max WIllson: Otter got into VR during the pandemic, like most of us, and one of his friends kind of introduced it to him. And as soon as he realized that he could talk to other people from across the world and meet so many interesting people, he was hooked. And through his travels, he came across an avatar he really liked called the Long Boy. And that led him onto a collision course with Hayu, who is the creator of that avatar. And he attended Ferality shortly after that. And for those who don't know, Ferality is an event that happens every year, which has DJs, panels, and these beautiful, beautiful worlds. And it is the best and brightest of the very fandom. and in my opinion the best thing what happens with variety is it connects people and it connected otter and hayu through their shared creativity and admirement for these art forms And through Ferality, Otter really got to know Hanyu and he felt comfortable enough to take Hanyu up on his offer through that tweet that Hanyu put out. And Otter is an incredible human being, the most kindest one I've ever met. And he is certainly the one to take these risks and put himself in a situation that is really scary. And that really speaks to his character.
[00:12:32.076] Kent Bye: Yeah, so Joe, I wanted to ask you because, and we met in virtual reality, you made the distinct decision to not show anybody in physical reality. And that I think was a distinct difference for how we typically see these types of films or features of these virtual worlds is that you compare and contrast between what's happening in their physical reality. And so in this experience, you had the opportunity to actually break that fourth wall of the virtual world and go into the physical reality But we get introduced to each of these characters in their avatar form, which I thought was really quite interesting to get a sense of their essence, their spirit, kind of a vibe without having all the other stories that come about when we see someone's physical body. So I'd love to hear you elaborate on the desire in this piece to show both the physical and the virtual. You know, there's a common theme, I think, in both Wigmat and virtual reality, as well as the reality of hope, where... The word virtual, which implies that it's somehow not real, but that the stories that you're telling are reinforcing the reality of not only the relationships and connections, but also these aspects of getting an organ donor based upon the relationships that were formed in these virtual contexts. And so, but I'd love to hear you reflect a little bit on these dialectic between the virtual and real that has been a real theme in a lot of your work.
[00:13:56.618] Joe Hunting: Yes, absolutely. Naturally, I've been interested in that contrast. In all of my work, even the decision to not do it in We Met in VR, there's still like a consciousness around how is that truth presented still, regardless. I did some cuts to real life in my films previous to that. But I realized that upon showing those films and talking to people about them, they weren't executed in the right way. And I was often the most favorable part of the film to those audiences, which always frustrated me. I think there's a fine balance in the truth of the avatars in VR and the truth of the physical kind of authentic real life. And I felt like after we met in VR, I had the understanding and the balance to really tread that line in a way that felt right. And I had a story to do that as well. Naturally, what Hayu was facing with kidney failure and having to be on dialysis treatment for hours, at least two times a week, needed to have real life treatment. to really allow people to sit with that, which was important to representation and the themes of the film, of course. And so the decision was made very quickly. And upon that, I wanted to really use VRChat and the creativity it allows to create match cuts and transition from VRChat to his dialysis room. and beyond in really emotional ways and ways that are really innovative and push the technology to new heights with filmmaking. And so something that we did in the short film is we recreated Pai Yu's actual dialysis room that he was in real life. in vr chat and we shot material in this vr chat world to help emphasize his initial diagnosis and his introduction to kidney failure and what he was facing in real life and then a little bit later do a really seamless match cut from his avatar, who actually has Otter sitting next to him in VR and is quite colourful and vibrant, to then the isolation of the real room and the loneliness that can exist in that room. The contrast of that, I think, was a really important first seed in how we were transitioning from these two realities and then later in the film it becomes very fun actually and there's like a party before the surgery in fact that Hayu and Otter they both got in VR the evening before the surgery in the hospital in their ward rooms and had a party with their friends to just celebrate them and celebrate what they were about to do and I think that is obviously a completely different contrast in in coming together and like coming out of this intense space in real life and going into something really warm and comforting and supportive. So yes, these time transitions were really important to the construction of the edit and controlling the themes of the film and the message.
[00:17:12.936] Kent Bye: And Max, I'd love to hear any elaborations of this theme of the virtual and the real that is featured pretty prominently in this film, but also just in your larger thoughts around the types of experiences that are happening in these virtual spaces, but also, you know, in this case, how they're jumping that bridge into physical manifestation in this exchange and this donating a kidney.
[00:17:35.586] Max WIllson: Absolutely. What I love about that match cut is that Otter was there supporting Hiyu through VR. And I was with Hiyu through some of those sessions when I could make them. And just to help someone who was going through such a hard time. And these VR relationships we make here in virtual reality are genuine. They can work with the real world. And with Hiyu and Otter, it was just like they clicked immediately as soon as they met for the first time. and that ability to just form connections halfway across the world is incredibly powerful and no other technology besides I think the internet as a whole can really replicate that.
[00:18:16.667] Kent Bye: Yeah, I think so. One of the other things that I had a chance to do before this interview is that you sent me a link to the set, I'd say. It's a VR chat world, but it reminds me a lot of the world that Starheart built for one of her music videos that she did, where it was almost like a facade where it's not like a fully fledged world that... has all the seams covered, you kind of go in and it's like, oh, okay, this was what was shown on film. And this was what I'm experiencing in this world where it very much feels like a soundstage where you have this set where you have kind of like a half cut out of the room and the room, the other side of it, you have this kind of space world that is very much in the space aesthetic, that's very clearly a virtual space, but has like the more physical manifestation of the dialysis machine with this chair and then a chair setting. So you have the two people are sitting there. So maybe you could talk around this process of looking at that physical set of the dialysis room and then recreating it in VR. And what was the process like to actually build this out in a virtual world so that you could get the shots that you needed in order to tell the story that you were telling?
[00:19:24.619] Joe Hunting: Yes, I'd love to. So the virtual set was something that we wanted to do very early on in production. We worked on it for about six months, seven months to really refine it and get it to the quality that we wanted to. And the people that led the creation of it was the team at Painted Clouds. I'm going to name drop. Their names are Rob Ouellette, Tia Johnson and Morgan Furtado. Incredible 3D artists and obviously talented Unity developers. They were the ones who brought it into VRChat. Initially, we decided on the room, the dialysis room that we were going to recreate with Hayu. Max did a 3D scan of that space and did a really intricate 3D scan of the dialysis machine in particular. And then the Painter Clouds team took those 3D scans and used them as base models to do really high quality geometry and kind of recreated that environment and studied the dialysis machine very carefully and obviously all the assets in the room. And then to just talk about the exterior of the set, you know, once we had the room and the storyboard of how we wanted to shoot in that room with Hayu's avatar, the exterior really came from inspiration with the Forality worlds. You know, Hayu is part of the world developer team at Forality, and that's really key to the film and the worlds that he's worked on. we felt was a kind of home and provided so much direction in the aesthetic of the VR chat side of the story. And so one world in particular, and many of the frailty worlds feature this beautiful starry sky and the Aurora. And we've shot a lot in a world that has this big starry sky. And so it felt like this dialysis room being in this strange poetic void in space. It's like a piece of his imagination rather than an actual world that people can visit. You know, it's much more poetic. We wanted to highlight that in the exterior. So when you see out the window of the virtual room, you just see this aurora that's very reflective of his inspiration with his world creation. To justify this direction a little bit more, we actually had an ending written where we came back to that room and the lights turned off in the room and this void kind of ceased to exist in the story. That's somewhat how we wanted it to feel. But then we realised we didn't really need to do that. It was a bit too far. Very indulgent from a director perspective. And so those were the sorts of ideas we were playing with and it was really exciting for me to... examine his truth in that way and because vr chat is already a very poetic landscape i think in terms of documentary by shooting there it almost feels like a bold move but then once you build a kind of ground truth in that space i think it's really exciting to then build this poetic landscape on top of it, which I feel we managed to achieve and I'm really proud of that. I have one more detail that I want to mention regarding just the match fade from Hiyu in his avatar to the dialysis room. The camera that we used to shoot that is a simulated virtual camera that is directly influenced by the tracking data of Max, who shot this in the physical dialysis room. So we managed to use a tracking software to take Max's pullouts on the Steadicam and directly create a simulated camera in Unity and bring that into VR chat. And so the camera you see in VR is almost a one-for-one for what we shot in real life, which was a pipeline that was quite new to me, but the team handled it gracefully. And so great to see that pay off and I think it's very impactful.
[00:23:14.741] Kent Bye: Yeah. So I watched your short film last night, and then I went back and watched the Photographer's Video Blog series, and then we watched your film, just because it's telling the same story, but in different ways, the way that you're able to share so much more of the poetic beauty of the virality worlds that you're bookending the experience with. You're starting with that, and then you're ending with that. I felt like the way that the story is told, it primes you to be in this altered state, or at least... this fantasy world of stark beauty that I use part of creating and helping to make. But then at the end with everybody there at this fireworks and I'd love to hear you elaborate a little bit on the affordances that you have and shooting in VR to be able to create these visuals that have an emotional resonance that are fitting in with the story that you're telling that you may not have that same type of latitude to do that type of, let's say, documentary work and physical reality that has that same type of spectacle that matches that type of poetic beauty that you're able to bookend this experience with. So I'd love to hear how you were thinking around using the aesthetics of these worlds to tap into this larger emotional journey and poetics that you're communicating in this piece.
[00:24:34.809] Joe Hunting: Yeah. Yeah. Perhaps I could start that. And then Max, it'd be good for you to maybe mention just where those worlds come from in reality as well. What, what their purposes are, I think would be good to talk about, to talk about the, the influence of the frality worlds in this film. I've always gone to the frality worlds prior to making this film and I've just been stunned by the spectacle of them. I think spectacle is a kind of a key word in the world developer team. In fact, I think that's something they care about. And the cinema and creating a really directed experience for a viewer in VR. And because the film is a portrait of Hanyu, we knew that these worlds had to be a big part of his landscape. You know, it's a very personal story and he's reflecting on on the state he's in and his future and where he's going. It just felt like he needed to be in spaces that were personal to him. And not often, as you say, will you get the opportunity to do that in documentary. And so I think that's part of the reason I love filming in VR is we had this opportunity and these worlds were incredibly stunning. And so we took it. A big part of it also comes in the contrast, which we talked about earlier. Ferality is magic. It's kind of whimsy. It's fantastical. It's otherworldly. And the furry community is also that as well. And what Haiyu was facing was very real and really disruptive and intimidating. It felt like two opposite spaces. And so being able to mirror them and complement and contrast, was really interesting and it felt like we would be able to make a compelling film with that in mind. And so we spoke to the Frality team who Max is in touch with and they were kind enough to allow us to kind of repurpose the worlds for this film in some way and allow us to shoot in there. But it's good to mention that these worlds have have such a rich purpose in virality. You know, we're using them in this context of Hi You, but also in the film as well, we talk about virality and what that means and the events that happen within it. So maybe Max, you could talk about what these worlds are actually purposed to do in the first place and the events that happen within them.
[00:26:53.928] Max WIllson: So I'm just going to touch on something involving how you first and then I move on to the world. We were incredibly lucky with just how you being such a multi-talented individual. He has music, he does world creation, he makes things in real life. And we were incredibly blessed to have a massive back catalog of these breathtaking worlds to immediately get around and start shooting in. And it was required for us to really bring these worlds into the documentary because Hayyub really put his essence and his worldview into them. And it's so good we could represent that into the visual style. The Feraldi worlds mean so much to many people. These worlds not only just look gorgeous, but they represent memories to many people because Feraldi connects people all across the world and you create friendships and you find your people there. And the community really looks fondly on these worlds as like where I began, where I really was given my people. And it was such an honor to convince Frality to work alongside us, to help them grow with the spotlight of this project and give them something back because Frality has really changed my life. And it's just such an honor to just help them in return.
[00:28:13.208] Kent Bye: Yeah, it was during New Year's Eve that I was with one of my friends, Rainwolf, in VRChat, and he had noticed that they had opened up the Umbra Ferality Worlds on that day. I guess that's the location for where they had the Ferality conference. That's usually in June, and you mentioned it. in this film that that was something that was a deadline that how you was going to be working towards. But yeah, I just had a chance to go to that world and walk around. And it really felt like I was going into like a Star Wars universe of just being able to like be transported into another realm, just the scale and scope of what was created. And to have that as like a conference location for people to gather, I can definitely see that as a locus point for people to have all these memories. And I think you were able to communicate that within the context of this piece. I think one of the other things worth pointing out in terms of VRChat filmmaking and filming in VR is that just like you give credit to who is in the film, sometimes people give credit to avatar creators. And in this, you also give credit to the worlds that are featured in this piece and so that people could watch the piece and then potentially go into VRChat and then go check out some of these different worlds if they are open. Some of them are not always open because they're event-based worlds where you could only go to them for that specific event. unless it happens to be open for other special events like new year's eve yeah i'd love to hear any other comment on giving credit where credit is due in terms of giving a shout out for the world creators and featuring how much the worlds play a part of these different contexts that are being able to facilitate these different social relationships
[00:29:50.029] Max WIllson: I was really shocked of the small studio you need to create these worlds because Ha-Yoo is the team lead and his vision is dictated down and some of the absolute scale and detail and the talent needed to make these at all was very breathtaking. So when you're running around those worlds, just definitely know that it's Haiyu's vision, but it was executed by an army of very talented people who were mostly volunteers doing this for just the good of the community or just giving back to something what gave so much to them.
[00:30:23.760] Joe Hunting: Absolutely. I mean, crediting those individuals and the worlds was no question. That's been important to my process with all of my documentary work and any work in VRChat. It's not required to do that, but the platform is also made by those people and those worlds wouldn't exist. You know, we wouldn't have access to them without the incredibly talented artists that build them. And so it just feels like that is an important respect that needs to be given. from filmmakers who were coming into those environments. And naturally this film is also somewhat I wouldn't say it's in collaboration in an official way, but we're very close to forality and highlight them in the film. And so giving audiences the names of the worlds as well alongside respecting forality allows people to go visit them for themselves. You know, if you're interested in seeing any of the worlds that you see in the documentary, go visit them. You know, the names are in the credits. So that's something I always like to tell people. And it's also another way side note of why we want to put the names of the worlds in the credits is so people can go and see them and we're also going to allow people to go and see the set of the dialysis room that we created for the film as well so if anyone's curious to see that then we'll we'll have a release of that hopefully later this year in some capacity
[00:31:43.149] Kent Bye: Yeah. And one of the things I also wanted to bring up is I was really noticing how the furry avatars have like really well articulated mouths in a way that's different than say more human mouths because the human mouth is more flat. And so there's actually a lot of articulation of the speaking that I think is a lot more dynamic for being in VR. And I think it's probably one of the maybe draws toward why the furry community is such a good overlap into VR is that you can be in a kind of virtual fursuit without having to buy a fursuit, which is very expensive. I mean, it can be very expensive to buy an avatar. But the ways that expressions can happen, especially when you pair that with something like the MetaQuest Pro, which has facial tracking and eye tracking, which I noticed that was how you and Photographer Otter were both using eye tracking and being able to track the mouse. So I feel like that's actually something that's a key differentiating factor of this community, but also these characters and the way that you have a little bit more emotional expressivity of these characters within the virtual space. So I'd love to hear any reflections on how this is something that's happening within the furry community and feature pretty prominently in your film.
[00:32:55.512] Joe Hunting: Yeah, yeah. For me, it's maybe good to say that my very first film in VRChat was somewhat about a furry story. But then I really kind of not separated myself, but just drifted from a furry community and was making films in other spaces. And so it was really exciting for me to come into the furry community and learn about it as I was making this film. And there was a lot of inspiration there, but one key aspect to that journey of learning about the furry community further for me as the director was how many people had facial tracking, eye and face tracking. It seems to be such a common thread and people are influencing each other and encouraging each other. to do it with the inspiration to just be as embodied as possible. And so many people you see in the film or many avatars you see all have full eye and face tracking, which was so much fun to film with because it's so expressive and their characters just come to life in such a vibrant way. And I think will really surprise audiences who haven't tried VR on how expressive the Quest Pro and these sorts of headsets can be when paired with a really amazing avatar like how I use Spirit Avatar and so on. So yeah, it was really surprising to me and really exciting at the same time. Maybe Max, you could talk about, I know you have eye and facial tracking yourself. Maybe your inspiration there.
[00:34:23.052] Max WIllson: You need to get it. But for me, face tracking, not only translating some of the genuine surprise and emotion that you often subconsciously exude, you also break down barriers between you and the technology. Instead of just remembering a silly gesture of fingers up and fingers down for smile, you just smile. And that just cuts out so much mental things so you can focus on being immersed in the game or with the people you care about. And when it comes to furry avatars, we're kind of lucky that we dodged the uncanny valley with some of these avatars. Human brain doesn't quite understand it, so it's just taken as it is. And it's kind of the Wild West with face tracking design with those avatars, because you've got ears, you've got tail, you've got all types of things you could link to those face tracking parameters and really get something which is just shockingly good. And we're just scratching the surface. The Quest Pro is quite limited on its visemes and what it could track. And with the Apple Vision Pro, you could do so much more fidelity of these expressions. And I'm so excited to where social VR could really go with this tech.
[00:35:31.974] Kent Bye: Yeah, and the furry community is something that has been a key part of, you know, going back into Second Life, but also these virtual spaces and especially in VRChat. And Furality is, you know, I think I saw that with the last Furality, it was like technically the largest furry convention in the world with all the different virtual attendees. So I know that there's the physical in real life furry community, and then there's VR chat community. Not sure if everybody that's in a VR furry community would identify in like going to the conventions, but it's something that in the past has faced some amount of stigma. And I think that... There's a way that in the VR context, it has less stigma just because it's so prominent and it's everywhere. And the furry community ends up not only being a key part of building a lot of the infrastructure of these virtual worlds, but also the internet itself with system administrators and everything else that... The furry community is notoriously involved in helping to maintain the infrastructure of so much of our online spaces. But Max, maybe you could just elaborate on your own journey into the furry community and how you contextualize as to why it has taken root so strongly within the context of VR.
[00:36:40.345] Max WIllson: Absolutely. So my journey into the fairy community was pretty generic. I've always been in joy of the art. Disney and these amazing films have really made me appreciate the anthropomorphized version of these characters. And during 2020, there was Aqua, and that really connected me with the people who make that art, who create these beautiful worlds. And I realized I emotionally really connect with these people. I never really had much of a friend network. And then as soon as I entered the fandom, it completely exploded with how many friends I have across the world. And the cost of getting into that community through VR is quite low. Virality is a really great way of just getting into that and just realizing you're liking it. And then you can move up into meeting these people in real life, like you're surprisingly close to a furry convention or just like a meet. And those situations are exactly the same as a virtual reality. And then you could graduate to cons, which is like virtual reality, but on steroids. It is an amazing experience of just meeting so many talented individuals, the real life suits as well. Just an amazing portrait of human creativity. The overlap is not one to one, but again, the real life furry fandom is definitely growing because of the ease of use of virtual reality and it's growing fast.
[00:38:14.181] Kent Bye: Now, follow up question for you, Joe, when you're shooting in a context where pretty much everyone else in the world is in a furry avatar, do you find the social pressure for you to have your own furry avatar or do you stay strong with your own identity with your Joe hunting little Poe avatar?
[00:38:34.116] Joe Hunting: That's such a good question. Yeah, it definitely was true. We were filming naturally with a lot of the team members of Frality, but also Hayu has fostered a really good group of friends and a small community that we were very close to during the production as well, as they were very close to Hayu and Otter. And I was typically the only human in that instance, in that world. And so there was a... sense of separation and difference, but there wasn't that socially. Everyone was very welcoming and obviously very aware of how I was coming into this as someone who was following the story and making a film about it. So socially, of course, everyone was very lovely and welcoming, but it did make me interested and it did make me curious what my persona was. would be and i was very grateful that max in secret started building one for me and surprised me with it at virality umbra and i love it it's this wonderful bird that was created by a creator called corny nachos a wonderful bird base avatar that was customized with the outfit of my human avatar on the bird. So I feel like I, you know, through the making of the film, have associated myself in the furry community in some capacity, which is very exciting and has been a really fun journey. I want to also speak to just the stigma that exists within the furry community, because that was something that I learned about in the beginnings of making the film and naturally was very aware of the stigma that's attached and the sort of negative representation that has been forced upon the furry community in the media and the sort of reactions that can happen from people learning about the furry community and so on. And so we really hope that this film can help break down those judgments and those preconceived ideas that may have been influenced by previous media stories and allow people to really connect with two very human individuals and friends who are facing something difficult and challenging and difficult. are being supported hugely by their community of friends who are associated with the furry community. And so that stigma is something we're very aware of and hope to change people's minds and open the doors to more people being excited about what this community can be and the belonging it can provide.
[00:41:00.791] Max WIllson: Just to interject here, it wasn't just me, Jenny, your partner did the design and I just helped. Oh yes, very true. So I got to give her credit there. But to speak on to the stigma, yes, this is an unusual hobby, and that's kind of the beauty of it. And unfortunately, people look at it and just see it at face value. But when you really look deep into it, it is just an outlet for creativity. And that takes some weird forms sometimes, but humans are weird as well. And you could see that type of weirdness in all communities, in my opinion, not just the furry community.
[00:41:35.266] Kent Bye: Hmm. Yeah, Max, one of the things that you had mentioned in your previous response was that you hadn't had a lot of connections or friends. And when you joined into the community, you do have a lot more friends from around the world in the fandom. And I think one of the key parts that as I was watching this film is that it's a film about male friendship in the midst of a time where we have this epidemic of male loneliness around the world. And so I'd love to hear any reflections on that. That as a theme that we don't typically see stories around male friendship, and especially in this capacity of someone has the courage willing to sacrifice and spend all the time to do something like this for a friend. It's really quiet and incredible and inspiring story that was really moving as I was watching it. But I think the other thing that was also moving was just to see a representation of male friendship. And I'd love to hear any elaboration on that as a key theme in this piece.
[00:42:31.178] Max WIllson: Hmm. I've never really experienced the technology which has given me so much. This technology has given me so many good habits when it comes to health. It's given me so many good habits when it comes to fitness, and it's given me lifelong friendships, which I didn't really have before because I never really fit in. I never really connected with the physical peers around me. And what the beautiful thing is with the virtual reality is it's all around the world and there are people exactly like you. You just got to find them. And I found those people and I'm just so grateful that I have a massive friend network who I could rely on and treat like brothers and sisters, thanks to VR. And it is honestly the biggest joy of my life meeting them for the first time with Otter and Hayu and with upcoming events. And if I could have said to my younger self that you're going to have a friend network what spans the world from several different countries, several different nationalities, he would have laughed in his face. It's just too crazy to believe.
[00:43:38.857] Joe Hunting: No, that's beautiful. Well said, Max. There's a lot of personal attachment there to this film and to what it represents. We want it to share that story. There's personal attachment, as I said previously, with me as well, with meeting people in person and finding those strong connections. But I think it's a really good point that you raise, Kent, which I've not fully considered the impact of what the film can be in terms of male friendships. And I really hope that it could... influence people and assist in in that message and perhaps bring more people into vr because of it um but regardless of that i think yeah it's about creating empathy for friendship and for two men who are going through something something quite difficult
[00:44:25.362] Max WIllson: And the beauty of it is that you could just practice socialization. If you're shy, if you're not exactly sure on these situations, if you're neurodivergent, you can practice socializing with normal people and you screw up, but then you could just go to a safe space. You could go back to your home world. There's no kind of risk at all. And the level of comfort you want or the level of risk is up to you. And that's a fantastic way to really learn how humans work, in my opinion.
[00:44:55.243] Kent Bye: Another thing that I noticed in watching this film and watching through the second time, just paying attention to how you're bookending this piece with the virtual worlds and that's really setting the context and really giving like an emotional payoff at the end that is represented visually that you're able to explore this kind of group celebrations. But in the middle part, I felt like there's so much subtlety to the emotions that are happening that I don't think would have translated at all if you would have shot everything in VR. Like there's certain things that had to be in physical reality because the technology is not able to capture the nuances of the interactions and the emotional tenor of what is happening in these exchanges. And so I'd love to hear any reflections on that, just in terms of how... You're able to cultivate these skills and practice in VR, but this piece in particular wouldn't have worked if it was only just in VR. You really needed to be there to see this exchange and to see the physicality, the sacrifice, and the time that was required to spend together and stuff that is not included in any of... Photographer Otter's video blog series that would go beyond what he was able to do on his own, but you were able to capture that other key part of the story. So yeah, I'd love to hear any reflections on what you were able to capture from an emotional expression part in those physical shoots.
[00:46:21.909] Joe Hunting: Yes, I completely agree. And it's something that I think came to life and was really discovered in the edit of the film as well. Because naturally, when we were shooting it, we're used to shooting in the physical world, didn't quite realise the very subtle emotional differences that would exist when going from VR to the real faces. One scene that I knew would be important was emotionally for Hayu specifically was his final dialysis session his last time he's doing treatment before going to the surgery and I think if we were to come out into VR during that moment you wouldn't feel the emotion as much as you do and if you were in the room physically with him as he kind of says a soft goodbye to the machine. He's not entirely sure if it is going to be the last session because you don't know with an organ donation or a transplant. They were really lucky that it went very well. And so that was a really emotional moment that was necessary to capture it physically. And he let go of so much weight in that moment that we're really building up to in the documentary. And you see his personality in a different way and you see his vulnerability. And it feels like the masks that we've seen in a very physical way in VR have come off in that moment. So I think perhaps that's a way to describe it. It's like you see the mask, We're always wearing masks in a different way. We wear masks physically as well. And VR is a really personified version of a mask. And so, you know, I think the film, we're able to take masks away to a point where we really reach vulnerability, which is what creates empathy and understanding. So, yes, I agree. Hard thing to put into words, but it definitely exists and was really influential when it came to editing and allowed us to kind of slow down a little bit more in the real life images. When you get into real life, the film slows a tiny bit to really allow us to breathe and feel those moments, especially that scene.
[00:48:31.074] Max WIllson: Yeah. Again, when we transition to real life, my connection with those two and sometimes the tears, what flow, it just heightened because it is messy and we get to see them be very vulnerable, especially for me was just the hospital scenes of they are no way, shape or form getting into VR in virtual reality anytime soon. And we're just we're there with them during the recovery of they've achieved this amazing thing, but they're just hurting and healing. And it was really, really tough kind of watching them go through that.
[00:49:08.362] Kent Bye: Yeah. Well, I think you really captured this story and it's a really beautiful story. I can't wait for people to have a chance to see it themselves. And there's some news that's going to be announced. I guess it's already going to be announced once this podcast airs, but it's going to be coming out here soon that you got acquired by Documentary Plus. And so typically with these different types of film festivals, some filmmakers will take it on a film festival run. And then do you have a sense of when this might be available for people to see. Maybe you could just elaborate a little bit on this acquisition with Documentary Plus and what you foresee moving forward throughout the next year, or if you have a date already, or when people can actually sit down and watch this beautiful piece.
[00:49:50.185] Joe Hunting: Yes. Yeah, we're extremely grateful to be partnering with Documentary Plus. At the moment, we are getting the film to Sundance Film Festival, which I think this podcast is going to be airing around our premiere. And so we've got four physical screenings at Sundance. And then the film will be available for US audiences at the festival from January 30th to February 3rd. That will be the first chance to watch the film. And then we will be releasing on streaming on Documentary Plus We haven't got a defined release date for the film yet, but that will be announced very soon. So yes, we're going to start with Sundance Film Festival. Please come see it. Watch it online if you're in the US. And then we'll be releasing on Documentary Plus later.
[00:50:39.465] Kent Bye: Yeah, so just to clarify, for folks in the US, there is opportunities to buy tickets online to watch the Sundance screenings. And so I've also been fortunate enough to binge watch all the documentaries at Sundance for the last two years with my wife to do a podcast called Story All The Way Down. So we'll be, again, watching over 50 hours of documentaries over the course of five to six days and then doing a whole podcast series. So it's quite an opportunity for folks who aren't able to make it out to Park City to still participate in the festival and catch some screenings. Okay, so yeah, I guess as we start to wrap up, I'd love to hear what each of you think the ultimate potential of virtual reality might be and what it might be able to enable.
[00:51:18.027] Max WIllson: Do you want to tackle this one first, Max? Oh, I'm going to put you first so you have no time to think about it.
[00:51:24.003] Joe Hunting: Okay. I've answered this question a few times on my podcast now, Ken, so I always know it's coming now. But for me, the answer I want to give is about empathy. I was writing about the making of this film recently and how documentary filmmaking for me allows me to really sit with people's stories in a really intimate way and immerse myself into someone's life. in a way that really allows me to put myself in their shoes. I think documentary filmmaking and documentary filmmakers likely really enjoy that process and get a lot from it, from a place of fulfillment. Though I also feel that's really relevant in the experience of VR, being able to fully empathize with a story and someone. And making films in VR is obviously, is like a double whammy of getting to know someone in another world, in a different country a lot of the time in a really intimate and physical way. And then seeing it on screen and immersing yourself in editing and actually in a creative way as well. So yeah, for me, the ultimate potential of VR is forging empathy, which has been very important to me.
[00:52:36.206] Max WIllson: For me, the ultimate potential of VR is connecting people. I truly believe that what VR is doing right now with social VR, getting all nations and all countries talking together and sharing interests, sharing what they love and carving these amazing worlds out of ones and zeros and really giving a generation a place to call their own. is the ultimate potential because the sense of belonging, the sense of community, and the discovery of within themselves of confidence and the ability to do more is unmatched, in my opinion.
[00:53:12.794] Kent Bye: Is there anything else that's left unsaid that you'd like to say to the broader immersive community?
[00:53:20.126] Joe Hunting: I would like to mention one thing on a medical note, as the film is a medical story, that was very clear when speaking to the doctors and surgeons at the hospitals in Stockholm, that there is a evident rise in people making donations from people who they've met on the internet, friends who they've made on the internet. And so I think that this isn't going to be the last or first story of people doing an organ donation from VR. And I hope it influences more people to consider those who they meet in VR or on the internet at large to be a donator and support those who are taking the initiative to help those in need.
[00:54:02.055] Max WIllson: I think you summarized my bit as well, Poe. Thank you. Thank you so much for having us, Kent.
[00:54:07.734] Kent Bye: Yeah, no, I really, really enjoyed it. And like I said, I felt like I wanted to dive deep into more of Photographer Otter's story. And I watched his whole video blog series. One of the things that he mentioned that I just thought I'd throw out there is he said that there was like one in 2000 chance that he was not going to survive this whole operation. And so there was a whole other aspect that I think he was facing different parts of his own mortality and that he went on a whole other journey inner journey that I think he explores in that video blog series that you didn't have the space or capacity to really dig into. Yeah, just like I said, I feel like this is just a really beautiful and poetic and using VR in a way that helps to really amplify the way that the story is told. But at the end of the day, it becomes a story around people connecting in those very real human relationships and just really happy to see how you've continued to do this kind of anthropology of what's happening in these virtual spaces and to help to document what's happening in these little short films and more extended films and yeah, just capturing some of this virtual culture and bearing witness to it. And that's the other thing that I just wanted to mention, as you're mentioning, Joe, there's that empathy. There's a part of documentaries for me is, an opportunity for you to bear witness to stories. And this one is bearing witness to an incredible dedication to the value of friendships and what that means in your life in ways that transcend the barriers of what you experience within the virtual space. And I feel like those themes are really coming home in this piece and just really deeply moving and really excited for people to have a chance to see this piece. And hopefully it'll have a impact of having more people get into VR and to rally, but also to cultivate friendships and to potentially even become an organ donor. That'd be amazing for, for folks that need it to have more donors available. So thanks again, both Max and Joe for joining me here on the podcast to help break it all down.
[00:56:01.197] Joe Hunting: Thank you so much, Kent. Thank you. Pleasure.
[00:56:02.778] Kent Bye: Thank you so much. So that was Joe Hunting. He's the director and producer of a film called Reality of Hope, which is a half hour documentary that's premiering at the Sundance Film Festival, as well as Max Wilson of Max Films, who also produced it and helped to shoot it and just make this documentary film possible. So I have a number of takeaways about this interview is that first of all, well, if you have a chance to see it, if you happen to be in the United States from January 30th to February 2nd, you can go onto the Sundance Film Festival. There's still some online tickets available and go and buy tickets to be able to see the documentary shorts program, check out the film. If you can't, it's going to be available later this year on Documentary Plus. Just a really beautifully told story, short and sweet. It's something that gets the heart of the matter. There were a lot of questions that I had is like, wow, what was that experience like for a photographer? And he's actually got this entire like video blog series. I'll put a link in the show notes as well. You can go watch that. So that's basically photographer's internal experiences and all the different fears and other things that he's going through more of an inner journey that he's having because it's more of a video blog series. So the reality of hope is more of comprehensively telling the story about their friendship, about the actual events that are happening in Stockholm, as well as like bookending with these amazing shots within the context of the Ferali community, the worlds that IU is building. And as I'm watching, I watch a lot of documentaries. I'm a huge documentary nerd. And so there's something around like being able to document these virtual spaces that is totally surreal into this otherworldly, more of imaginative and poetic and documenting what's happening in these virtual cultures like VRChat. But also there's something around filming in physical reality where there's all these subtle nuances of the emotions and the connection that don't translate into the virtual spaces. And so I think this is a film that really emphasizes the different types of connections, because like when you're introduced to these characters, you don't know what they look like. And so you kind of get a sense of their essence and their spirit. And just by seeing some of their worlds, like how he's building, you get a sense of who this person is and the type of aesthetics and the vibe that you get. And also just like photographer in this otter avatar that how you actually happen to build and all the ways that face tracking and eye tracking is able to still communicate a certain dimension of these people's character that you see other sides of that when they're actually in physical reality, but you're not constrained to like their physical body and personality. I feel like this is a really great film that starts to explore different modes of expression of who you are, of your identity, but also fundamentally it's about a story about male friendship and just the courage that it takes to fly across the world and to go through this really intense major surgery. So, yeah, it's just a really short and sweet story. Like Joe and Max were saying, they really wanted to keep it contained and to expand it out into a full length feature, like 90 minute length that would have diluted the essence of the story. So it's really short and sweet and poetic and really getting to the heart of the story and just really efficiently told. So definitely look out for it if you have a chance to see it online during the Sundance Film Festival. If you happen to be in the United States from January 30th to February 2nd, or if not, then it'll be available later this year on Documentary+.com. And last thing I'll say, I'll put some notes to the worlds that were featured that were in the credits so that if you want to check out some of the worlds ahead of time, you can go explore some of these worlds that were featured within the reality of hope. So that's all I have for today. And I just wanted to thank you for listening to the Vr podcast. And if you enjoy the podcast and please do spread the word, tell your friends and consider becoming a member of the Patreon. This is a, this is a supportive podcast. And so I really do rely upon donations from people like yourself in order to continue to bring this coverage. so you can become a member and donate today at patreon.com slash voices of vr thanks for listening
