I interviewed director Pegah Tabassinejad about Entropic FIelds of Displacement that showed at IDFA DocLab 2024. See the transcript down below for more context on our conversation.
This is a listener-supported podcast through the Voices of VR Patreon.
Music: Fatality
Podcast: Play in new window | Download
Rough Transcript
[00:00:05.458] Kent Bye: The Voices of VR podcast. Hello, my name is Kent Bye, and welcome to the Voices of VR podcast. It's a podcast that looks at the structures and forms of immersive storytelling in the future of spatial computing. You can support the podcast at patreon.com slash voicesofvr. So in today's episode, we'll be diving into what would end up being the winner of the digital storytelling competition at IFA Doc Lab 2024. It's called Entropic Fields of Displacement. And so this is an eight-channel video installation, which also has a multi-channel audio installation to go along with it. And to kind of describe this piece, I'm going to also describe this live performance that the director Pega did on the opening night of Infodoc Lab. So Pega is a performance artist. And so she was in Amsterdam and having a live streamer kind of filming her as she's walking around the city and she's taking directions. from the audience. So there's an audience that's there at the IFA doc lab in a theater, and there's being a live stream on the screen. And she's taking suggestions from the audience as to where she's going to go throughout Amsterdam and do different actions. And so if there's anything that she doesn't want to do, then she will turn around and say, game over. And that's basically the end of that person's for giving different instructions for her to do. So you can have her go walk around and run, also interact and talk to people. You can send her money to buy things. And so she took this concept and idea and then did this with eight different women of West Asian descent in these different cities, ranging from like European cities, but also in Afghanistan and Iran and and so she would give these women instructions to do these different actions as they're walking through these different cities and it's kind of getting to this idea that roaming around a city is actually a form of resistance and to see the different interactions that are happening across these different women across these different contexts then you get to see some of these different power dynamics that are playing out across these different contexts and so It's an eight-video channel installation. There's eight of these women that are walking around at the same time, and each of those video streams has its own audio feed so that as you're watching it, you're watching and taking it all in. So I just wanted to read the jury statement because this did end up winning the digital storytelling competition for Iphidocla. So the winner of the If A Doc Lab competition for digital storytelling is a deceptively simple piece under a theme that explores a space between the real and the unreal. And in a year of increasing polarization, dominant patriarchy, and global violence against the marginalized, the jury unanimously agrees that this important and moving work of resistance and solidarity is a clear winner. Powerful and layered, Entropic Fields of Displacement cuts through the voice of virtual promises and dreams to create a deeply moving and timely artwork. So we'll be covering all that and more on today's episode of the Voices of VR podcast. So this interview with Pega happened on Monday, November 18th, 2024 at IFA Doc Lab in Amsterdam, Netherlands. So with that, let's go ahead and dive right in.
[00:03:07.629] Pegah Tabassinejad: Hi, my name is Pegah Tabassinejad. I'm an interdisciplinary artist. My background is in theater, dance, and visual arts. I'm like very, very interdisciplinary. But when I did my MFA at SFU in Vancouver, which is a Master of Fine Arts, I started exploring creating performances with technology and through internet. Since 2010, I started creating these interactive performances. As an example, I created this performance with 13 inches laptops and using Skype and internet to find some performers around the world. and create a live performance based on Henry Gibson's A Doll's House or some kind of a dramaturgie. So when the audience were coming inside this black box, famous black box for theatre performances in Vancouver, they were seeing some 13-inch laptops around, like a form of installation, and they were observing some people, random people, inside their houses and watching. They thought like this is a video installation up to the point that perhaps one of them was getting disconnected. And that was the moment that they could understand that, oh, this is a live performance because the performers were calling back the room and the audience supposed to, you know, they found themselves, you know, accepting the call and then they could understand that this is a live performance. So we're not talking about the COVID time. We're talking about 2010. So I started these kind of performances that were in between theater, performance, and visual arts. And I started looking at the audience and how they are interacting or observing and what is their experience. And also I started observing myself that I developed that language towards creating what we call digital theater. only using internet or different kind of monitors and live performances. And this is the background of the last, I would say, 10 to 14 years of me. And now, for me, it was always interesting to see how I can push my medium, how I can develop my medium, which for me was theater. And then at some point I found myself coming out of the theater rooms or like finding other places for this medium. I found it more interdisciplinary, more interactive, more immersive. Then I became less interested to portray characters whereas like even though when they were like contemporary characters and moving towards showing citizens of a city. of showing myself with my own identity and everything, like whatever is the project. So I started these bunch of live performances. Should I talk about them?
[00:06:16.639] Kent Bye: Yeah, so you have what's showing here is Entropic Fields of Displacement. At the opening night, you had input from the audience to direct you as you're walking around the city. You also have an eight video channel installation here where you're giving the instructions to these different women as they're walking through these different cities. And so as you start to talk around some of your performances, maybe you could give me a lineage of where did this type of thing start to begin for you and where did you start?
[00:06:41.570] Pegah Tabassinejad: Yeah, thank you. That's a great question. So since 2019, I started these performances called Game in different cities, which I was in the streets and audience were in the art galleries or they were in the theater spaces or any kind of interiors. or like I would say public spaces. And I was introducing myself as an avatar of this game. So I started with Game Tehran, which happened in Tehran. As an avatar of a game with my own identity, and there are certain rules that they had to follow. And the rules were very simple. I was telling them that you can walk me, run me, spin me through the city. You can play with me. And I can play with you as long as we both enjoy this game. And I have the freedom to resist. I have the freedom to oppose. I have the freedom to game over you. And you also have the freedom to leave the room, leave the game, you know, do whatever you want. So for me, my own view, I was expecting this would be some kind of a gallery viewing and, you know, people are coming by. They might play or not play and then, you know, leave. And then suddenly when I like at the end of the performance, you know, I was like getting instructions by the people that were asking me to do many things. And then at the end, somebody literally like, you know, this was not planned at all. Somebody... gave me instructions towards the art gallery. So I ended up coming back to the art gallery. I mean, they all wanted to do this game since the beginning and I was like game-overing people because I was like, you know, I'm in the streets, then there's a point for that. But at the end, somebody did that and I ended up coming to the art gallery and... It was filled out with people and everyone like clapped. And I was like, oh, I thought it's going to be like a more cool, you know, gallery viewing thing. But it became like a performance. Anyhow, so like I redid these performances. I mean, these are like whenever it happens, it's always a new thing. So I did it in Tehran and then I did it in Vancouver. I did it in Berlin. last year but the one in berlin had two performers me in the city of berlin and an afghan woman in the city of tehran and then recently at the opening night at the club i had the honor to wander around in the city of amsterdam and the audience were amazing audience of it for the club which was So astonishing. Anyhow, so what happened was that based on this experience, which I call it more like a performance art or slash performance, but also it has the idea of gaming and it uses the structure of game, but in a very real way. I think I forgot to say that there is a microphone in the room and audience can talk to me one by one, or sometimes it's like a couple of them talking to me together.
[00:09:55.325] Kent Bye: And you have like AirPods in your ears and there's a camera person who's following around filming and live streaming. And so in the audience, we're getting a live feed. And from a third person perspective, we're watching you go through the city and do all the actions that the audience is telling you that you should do.
[00:10:09.210] Pegah Tabassinejad: exactly thank you so much for explaining that yeah exactly so there is this camera person with a mobile phone very simple they're following me in the street and i can only hear the sound of the audience who are giving me instructions so i have no idea who is giving me what you know i cannot see them but they can see me and they can hear me So based on this experience, I was interested to explore. It was not just based on this experience, but I would say probably this experience opened up new possibilities for me in terms of performance creation. Because I'm always interested in visual arts, I ended up creating Entropic Fields of Displacement, which is an 8-channel video installation, video and sound installation. that is about women of West Asian countries, women of West Asia, whether they are living in their own country or they have been relocated, displaced, emigrated, or has been refugee in other countries. So I chose four different countries, Iran, Afghanistan, Turkey, and Lebanon, Maybe the first name was mid-game collective strolling with women of West Asia, but then I changed that. But in this project, this is my game with all these women who we share similarities, probably because we're all from West Asia or because we are all women. I share similarities with them because some of them are still living in their own country and I used to live there. and some of them had been relocated, and I have been relocated as well. So for me, I've tried to use the memory of the games or the instructions that people in different cities gave to me. And also, I decided to use my imagination to create these instructions and send it to these amazing women and create that project.
[00:12:17.662] Kent Bye: I think one of the experiential aspects for you as you're doing these performances is that you'll be asked to do different things from the audience, and you'll have a certain level of comfort or fear or actions that you are willing to do. Someone asked you to steal a bike, and you started to do it. And I was like, wow. And then you're like, oh, I can't ride a bike. But at some points, you can just turn to the camera and say, game over. And there's a big flashing screen like, game over, with red flashing lights. And then the next person comes up. There's this deeper thematic aspect to this piece, which is the implications of wandering through a space, the freedom to wander through a space, and the political implications of if you're able to do that or not in certain situations and contexts, especially if women of West Asian descent are in other places other than their country of origin. And so maybe you could elaborate on the deeper thematic aspects of these pieces based upon your own experiences of doing that and then how you wanted to try to incorporate some of those different elements within this eight channel video installation.
[00:13:19.981] Pegah Tabassinejad: Yeah, sure. Thank you. So, you know, I was interested in the idea. I mean, you know, I'm a wanderer, first of all, like I love walking around and I hate biking around. I'm so sorry. I know I like I can bike, but I really don't like to bike. I cannot. I need my feet to be on the ground. You know, it's been years that I've been doing this wandering. So the idea of flaneur is coming from this, you know, typical French thinker, male thinkers, male philosophers, male artists who had the luxury to walk around in the city of Paris and think and probably reflect upon the city. So the word flaneur didn't exist back then. What is happening to the female body, that would like to be a wonder and you know i'm a feminist and i'm interested in exploring all these terms these boundaries these questions these things that they don't exist for women and how we can like re-look and re-imagine and remake them So I was interested in the word flannels and I was interested to see what is happening to the female bodies who might be interested to wander around because female bodies are the ones women are the ones or like not just women women and marginalized bodies are the ones who are always pushed to be within interiors or pushed to be accompanied by someone else or you know be a mother or you know prepare something for the others and they have been taught that they are safe at home and you know they never have the time probably to wander around the first and foremost and then when you are looking at this in a certain region certain lands other lands you know West Asian countries I was always thinking Can we wander around? I might be able to wander around in Paris, probably at a certain time of the day, but can I wander around in Tehran? Can I wander around in Afghanistan? And all of those things, and what is happening to our bodies. And then, wandering around is also an act of resistance in different levels, in very different levels for women. Not only for uprising movements, which women... of West Asian countries where they have a very strong role in the uprising movements in those spaces, cities and countries. So it is an act of resistance also for like your being as a female body, as a woman. It's an act of resistance because the moment we are wandering around in the public space, it seems like you have to have like a goal, you know, you have to be somewhere, you have to do something, you have to otherwise like what are you doing or like you might get attention or you might be in danger or all of those things. All of these themes made me interested to explore more these wanderings. And also, for me, there was a focus in this one. The instructions I'm giving to these women are in three sections, action, interaction, non-action. So action, 10 minutes of each. Action is about walking, jumping, pause, sleep on the floor, like sit down, run. Interaction requires them to do certain interactions with people around them, asking them questions or even to ask them to do something with them. You know, could you please caress my face? And then in non-action, which is the most interesting part for me, is the part that I'm asking them to remember a figure that they have seen in the public and just re-body that figure and stay in that for five minutes.
[00:17:22.572] Kent Bye: Yeah, so as you take your own experiences that you've had from doing this performance and then provide the instructions for this 37-minute piece that's showing here in an 8-channel video installation, how did you find the instructions that you were going to put into more of a fixed media that could be played over and over again other than the performance elements? What were some of the things that you found were the most interesting for you from your own experience of what it might feel like for the person to be doing it versus how it looks and translates to the camera and how what we're viewing as an audience? And love to hear you expand on some of those things that you found to be really compelling for your own experience that you wanted to also show these different women across these different contexts to also start to elaborate on some of the cultural differences that might be happening in some of these different situations.
[00:18:11.580] Pegah Tabassinejad: Yeah. For example, there was this moment in my own performances. I'm telling the audience that I don't have money. So you should buy me things, you know, and you have to pay me. Like literally, you have to like... It's the money transaction that is really important for me. And exploring that in different cities, because there are sometimes in some cities, yeah, nothing happens. Like people are not buying you anything. They're not... Going there and there are cities that they are really going there. So that was a moment that I wanted to explore with the women of West Asia as well. Like I've added that moment, go to that supermarket and ask them, can I have a bottle of water, a drink or like a small snack? and tell them that I don't have money and see what happens. And I'm asking them whether they give it to you or not, just leave it and get out. And it's interesting to see what happens. Different things are happening. Well, there were like a couple of times that people in different cities, you know, there are similarities. Sometimes people ask me to have interaction, like, you know, hug the tree. Something with a tree always happens. In Amsterdam also happened. In Vancouver happened. I think in Berlin happened. And yeah, I was just interested to see how some people might interact with a tree or these kind of elements of the city. And that's the part that I added, but a little bit I changed it, lean on a tree. And then, OK, so I have to say what is happening to me in the cities is always it has a variety of instructions. I always get a lot of nice interactions and also a variety of sometimes cruel, you know, cruel. Maybe it's a big word, but it can be like violent or like a little bit not nice instructions. which didn't happen in Amsterdam. That was interesting because I think we have a specific audience here and they were all artists and it was a performance with care. This was also the performance that I've tried to do with these women. So one thing that was really interesting that happened in my own experiences happened in Vancouver when somebody got me an Uber and I found myself inside a building and I opened this door. And she said, yeah, go enjoy. And there was this guy in his house clothings and he was like, who are you? And I was like, who are you? And he was seeing me with a cameraman who really didn't want to get into that apartment. And there was this moment that I had to decide because, you know, the private space was getting exposed directly to the public space. And I was in charge of that. And That was a really, really, yeah, interesting, unexpected moment.
[00:21:26.540] Kent Bye: Yeah, watching the performance here at DocLab, as people were having you go to different places and do different things, they had you first go to one of the theaters. Because there's the International Documentary Film Festival of Amsterdam that's happening right now, there's one of the theaters where there's an office that they had you go in the back and trying to get into. They had you go into a karaoke bar that someone knew of, and then you get onto the dance floor, and then immediately you get pulled up on stage and start singing, which I thought was really quite magical. How often do you just waltz into a karaoke bar, and then within a few minutes, you're on stage singing? Also, the hugging of the tree, giving different interactions, and... asking very intimate questions to share stories around your mother and aspects around your own relationships and love. And so there's all these kind of themes that people are both having you do different interactions to kind of see what is going to be revealed about who you are, but also asking these questions as you're walking to tell a story or to sing a song or to reveal something about yourself. So it feels like there's this opportunity to both push the edge of what you can do in this kind of like spontaneous interactions but also like an opportunity for you to share more about yourself as like you're on a weird intimate first date type of thing but it's a performance art but people are curious it's like who are you why are you doing this you know explain yourself why is it that you're doing this type of art so yeah i'd love to hear this kind of balance between the interaction part but also like you either choosing to or not reveal different parts of your own identity and your motivations and who you are as an artist.
[00:22:58.854] Pegah Tabassinejad: I have to say, when I do this performance, you know, I'm connected to this collective energy or collective, I would say, eyes of the audience who are watching me live. Whereas like when I'm in the street, like nobody knows that I'm secretly connected to this live performance. So knowing that those people are with me, although they're not with me, you know, it gives me the power to be like that. Yeah, I think like when I'm doing these performances, there is this aspect of me that comes up which is like really childish, really open, really free. I know I'm a performer as well like I have that background and like I have that but still I think I can be very open in this performance and it's through that collective audience work somehow connected to you So you know that you're performing for some people or through some people and that is like a validation for whatever that you want to do. And you don't normally do when you go to a bar that you have no idea who those people are and it's in another country. You first, you know, have a glance, you know, you want to like read the room, like, you know, step by step, hopefully you get there. But then when there's a performance, I don't know. And also, like, I think I'm very high on adrenaline when I'm doing the performance and when I'm enjoying it or like when I'm doing something mysterious, like, you know, going and opening those doors, which was like really bad, but... Yeah, so those are really interesting moments. So that collective energy, that collective eyes of the audience on me helped me to wander around deeply. This happened with women of West Asia as well. There's this Afghan woman in Tehran that at the end of the performance, she cries in front of the camera. But for the 33 minutes performance, whatever I saw was that, you know, she's so cool. She looks so cool. She looked like she doesn't give a shit about the performance. She's just wandering around and she didn't do any of those interactive parts. And I was like, I loved her. I was just watching the performance and I was like, oh my gosh, she's amazing. She's amazing. She doesn't care. She's so free. And then at the end, she cried in front of the camera. And that was like a huge shock to me. So I sent her a message, a voice message, and I've asked her, what can you tell me? Why did you cry? And she said, because you have asked me really simple things, walking, running, pausing, sitting down. These are simple things that human beings should be able to do that. And I never have the gut to do that in the city that I'm living in for years. but through the performance because I was like listening to you and I think they all mentioned that you have like a good voice or like one other person said I knew that you were not with me and you were not alive you were not there but somehow I felt you were there this is exactly what I'm trying to explore in these kind of distanced creations within the absence and presence and They said, we felt like we are connected to you and we are allowed to do these things, you know. Although they also had the agency to resist, to oppose and not to do anything that they don't like.
[00:26:51.724] Kent Bye: So in terms of the logistics of getting eight different performances to be all synced up and lined up, you have to provide these instructions. And so when you're giving the instructions to each individual, was it pre-recorded so that the timing would all work out? Or did you do it live and just have the stopwatch there, just trying to keep it timed out? Because the art of the piece is also to try to take these eight individual performances
[00:27:16.084] Pegah Tabassinejad: moments in time of going through this process but then sync them all up at the end and so i'm just wondering how you were able to negotiate and manage that uh yeah so i wrote down the script i would say script or instructions and that took a long time because i had to like redo and redo because i knew the moment i finalized that instruction i'm not going to change it So I wrote down the script and then I had to also count down the seconds sometimes for each instruction, because I was thinking, for example, if I'm giving them an instruction for dancing in those cities, so that has to be like really short. because that's an act of resistance or act that you're not allowed to do. Women are not allowed to do in the public space. Or if I'm asking them to lie down on the floor, that should be like only two seconds, three seconds. I was counting down seconds. as if I am there, as if I am performing there. And for me, safety was very important, but also it was not just about safety. It was also exploring the boundaries, like how we can push the boundary a little bit, but still safe. So I wrote down the script and then I recorded my voice in different languages. Some of them didn't know English. And then the moment we recorded the first one, which was in Sanandaj, I knew that there's not coming back. I cannot change anything, which was... really good because I'm always changing things. This way I couldn't change. And so the same soundtrack has been sent to these women. And I started recording these performances since 2022, late 2022. or early 2023, actually. And then the last one was in Paris, actually, three months ago, September 2024. So yeah, that was the timeline that I had was always the same. That's why they have been synced together.
[00:29:26.780] Kent Bye: Yeah, that makes sense. I figure you must have had to do that. Otherwise, you've been adding a lot of extra work that would have been more of a nightmare in post-production to be able to put it all together.
[00:29:35.956] Pegah Tabassinejad: Yeah, I just wanted to say that then I was sending the audio files like five minutes before the time of the performance. You know, they were all aware of the structure, the three sections and some examples of each section. But I didn't give them the whole audio file because I wanted it to be very fresh audio. And it was supposed to be a one-time thing, one-time take. It is whatever it is. So I was sending them five minutes before the time of the performance. They were putting it into their ears. They were listening to my voice and doing the performance.
[00:30:11.994] Kent Bye: And is it the same camera person through each of the different pieces? Because this seemed to be like when you were walking around Amsterdam, you had said at some point someone asked, can you have the camera person do this or that? And you're like, I don't have any control over that. And so it seems like you have either you were not wanting to do it, or there's a set of rules that you've also set up for the camera person to do this and follow you in a way that wasn't always made clear to the audience about what those rules were, but in order to have some sort of container or consistency across these different performances. So I'd love if you could maybe elaborate on the instructions that you're giving to this camera person.
[00:30:45.046] Pegah Tabassinejad: Yeah, because it was interesting, maybe because here I had most of my audience were filmmakers or people who are working with technology. It was the first time that they asked me, you know, they were like also giving instruction to the camera and camera person. And this is not part of the game because camera is like this eye that is following the performance. It's like when you're playing game, you cannot. Can you? I don't know. Can you change that?
[00:31:11.686] Kent Bye: No. For most games where it's a third person perspective, you always see the main character in the main. And so that's kind of automated. There is an opportunity, if it's a first person game, to kind of move around. But that's more the metaphor of moving your own body rather than moving the body of the camera. So yeah, for third person games, you don't typically have the ability to move the camera around.
[00:31:29.229] Pegah Tabassinejad: I think that's an interesting thing to explore for the next versions. This was the first time, me being surrounded by filmmakers. So that's why I told them I don't have any agency. I'm not going to talk to the camera person. Because I'm only talking to the audience if they ask me questions. And again, like in Amsterdam, they were asking me a lot of deep questions, which was really interesting. And they made me to talk. There were cities that nobody talked to me or like nobody wanted me to like talk to the other. So it was all physical activities. So talking about that, you know, there were certain rules for the camera person. So we had so many meetings, online meetings. And no, they're not the same people. They're like different people in each city. And I've been giving them instructions. But it's interesting, although like I gave them a lot of very, very obvious instructions with all the PDF files and everything, some of them changed. couldn't or forgot or didn't care or something so when i received the files i understood that some of these videos are like didn't follow my instructions so there was like for example zooming and zoom out in the suburb of herat but there's no other way that i could do that performance again and i didn't have that intention Or there were like fingers coming, you know, into the thing. And I decided to polish things for a while. And then I removed all of those again. I was like, I don't have the agency. That's the file that they sent to me from that place. And the strength of the file is what it is, you know. I have to, although like it's not perfect at all, some of them. You just have to accept it. And maybe that's the beauty of those files. So, yeah.
[00:33:32.133] Kent Bye: Yeah, and one of the other really interesting things about watching this piece was that you get to see what each of these eight women, you know, how they're interacting with the world around them. But also, it's a little bit of a profile of the city because you get to see a little bit of the city, you get a little bit of a walking tour, but also... the other people in the city and how they're interacting and so there's these kids in this afghanistan city that is interacting with the woman who's walking around and you get a little bit of a vibe and a flavor for each of these different places so i'd love if you could maybe expand on how this is not only showing the women as a character and kind of revealing parts of their character as they're doing these different interactions but also the city around them and also telling the story of these different places as well
[00:34:17.779] Pegah Tabassinejad: Yeah, I love cities. I love walking in the cities. I love the scenery. I love the characteristics of the cities. I think years ago, I have read this book by Italo Calvino, The Invisible Cities, and I started dreaming of cities. So whenever I go to a new place, or even though, for example, this time in Amsterdam, this is my third time being in Amsterdam for the last 15 years, Sometimes some people are like always like have a list, you know, we have to go here and here and here and here. For me, it's always very important to wander around and just look at the city and get the vibe of the city. And I think this is the only way I can. I'm searching for the architecture, the trees, the gardens, the pathways. and also the soul of the cities. And I think it was really interesting when I saw these eight different sceneries that some of them, for example, the suburb of Herat, she had to go to the suburb of Herat to be able to do that performance. Because I've heard and I saw so many beautiful images of Herat, but she couldn't do this simple performance there. So she went to the suburb and the suburb is like totally filmic scene. Like all my filmmaker friends love that channel because it's very dramatic in a sense. It's like kind of a nowhere. And then Daria, those kids always following her, making her performance very difficult, not listening to her that she's keep telling them, Go away, go away, leave me alone. They're not going anywhere, these little boys, which maybe represent the whole society. Maybe, I don't know. She felt that way. This is what she told me. Or like the girl in Berlin, she kind of escaped from the city. to that beautiful park and the first time that I saw the channel by itself because I was like sometimes I think by that time that they did the performance I had only three other channels and probably that was the fourth or fifth one I just decided and I was like oh my goodness this is This is not even a city. You know, I was like, it was like kind of, you know, disappointed. And I was like thinking, oh, it's all park, all park, all park. No people, no interaction. This is really bad. And then when I saw everything together, I was like, oh, my goodness, this is the breathing moment for the whole channels. Everything happens in the streets. And this one is the breathing. You know, it's like the silence within the speaking. It's like the stillness within the movements. And I loved it. And I was like, oh, wow, how parks are important, magnificent places for us to escape from the cities. you know or I would say in San Andat she is kind of in a park that we can see all the mountains those mountains are really beautiful important mountains in Iran and then at some point she comes to the street a little bit and then she goes back to that park and again get the mountains and yeah I think I stroll with all of them and I hope the audience also I don't know, had the same vibe or experience
[00:37:58.857] Kent Bye: Yeah, I jumped into the middle of the experiences. And so I saw the woman in the Berlin in the park and I was like, oh, I'm not getting to see the city. But then when it started, I was like, oh, she actually is starting in the city. And then she kind of ends up there. So it makes sense that it worked out that way and that has that pause. But I did want to ask one question around the way that you set up the monitors because it's an eight channel video installation. And so you have it all on a linear line. And so I could only see maybe three or four maybe five at the same time I have to kind of turn my head but if I stand further back I can see more but then for every of the eight video channels there's a dedicated speaker hanging above it but also two other speakers that are there and so you have at least 10 audio channels I wanted to be right in the middle to hear the sound fields that are coming through because sometimes there would be a sound or an interaction that would catch my attention I would turn my head and see what's happening but You could have potentially have it like in a grid where you could like have one visual field to see everything all at once, which there was a part of me that wouldn't be like, oh, I want to see everything. But then the way you have it now, I think that would work less well with like an immersive audio installation because you really need to have the space of the audio dedicated to that space. And so I felt like it was a little bit of a trade off of like having that audio spatial experience. And then it's a type of experience that I could watch multiple times because there's just so much that's going on to pay attention to with audio. I was like, if I really want to see everything in this piece, I'll have to watch it eight times. And I was like, I don't have the time to just watch one channel because I end up, as I'm watching it, looking around and watching it between jumping around. But as you were putting it together, I'm wondering what were some of the different trade-offs that you were trying to negotiate when it came to the type of experience you wanted to give to the audience as they're watching this piece?
[00:39:40.990] Pegah Tabassinejad: Yeah, I was thinking about the same potential problem that an audience member might have. For example, I was thinking, what if one person want to only watch one channel? So this is why I'm adding those keyframes and the videos are like sliding through. So if you only watch one channel, you will see the eight cities, all of the eight cities, all of the eight performers in different times and moments of their performances. So we're talking about, for example, right now this installation is on in Vancouver. It's a solo exhibition. It's huge. The space is big and we're using multiple projectors and we're projecting each channel like life size, like very big. the walls and so even though like over there is way more difficult you know you have to sit and you have to like turn your head to be able to see and yes you need to like see that at least couple of times in order to see everything but you don't need to see everything I think that is the whole point of this and I want the audience when they come into the space, they kind of have a feeling that they wander around with these women and you can come and go and it's always walking, you know, it's a different kind of walking. But they're there. They're going to repeat themselves. You know, the video installation is being repeated. And yeah, I also have audience that, for example, today I've met these women. It was really interesting because they sat down on the floor. Yeah, you saw it. And I had a conversation with one of them and she said, like, I've watched this like two or three times. And yeah, it depends, you know. But yeah, yeah.
[00:41:32.466] Kent Bye: Yeah, I sat down and watched it probably two, two and a half times to kind of like jumping in and out. But you said something that reminded me of how these women are wandering around. And then as I'm watching it, my attention and my gaze is also kind of wandering to jump around as well.
[00:41:46.385] Pegah Tabassinejad: Yes, that's true. Yeah, it jumps around. And, you know, I also had one channel of this one, but then I was like, the one channel, it makes it very dramatic in a sense. Or like one very famous editor in film, because she asked me, then how do you choose which moment is the best moment? to like keep that moment. You know, for example, this moment of interaction is the best in Herat or a suburb of Herat. And then that moment of Vancouver, blah, blah. And then I was like, that's a really good point. So I feel like I had to show all of them together. And unfortunately, I have this tendency to, you know, multiply everything, make everything bigger and more and more. So it became like an eight channel thing. But yeah, I totally understand what you mean.
[00:42:42.237] Kent Bye: Awesome. And finally, what do you think the ultimate potential of this type of immersive art and immersive performance might be, and what it might be able to enable?
[00:42:52.679] Pegah Tabassinejad: Yeah, it's been years that I've been exploring the world of VR and AR. I haven't created anything yet, but I feel like it would be really interesting to explore this project or these kind of projects with that. to see how fully we can experience wandering in another city through using another person's body or like using your own body or like a virtual body in a real world but another world I think there is a potential there. I'm interested in this boundary between what is real and what is unreal, what is absent, what is present, what is the reality, the virtuality. So I guess there's a great potential there. And I'm exploring. We'll see.
[00:43:42.920] Kent Bye: Is there anything else that's left unsaid that you'd like to say to the broader immersive community?
[00:43:51.741] Pegah Tabassinejad: I want to say I think this is an amazing festival. I saw the really amazing projects and I think nothing is better than being inspired by other people's art. I've met really interesting people, had great conversations and I hope people who are in this field And have the opportunity to travel to Amsterdam at this time of the year. Be here every year. This is amazing. I hope I'll be here. Thank you.
[00:44:24.011] Kent Bye: Yeah, it's definitely a highlight of my year to come back here and to be a part of the documentary community. And like you said, the audience here is full of care and empathy and just really interested in exploring the frontiers of how to use all these technologies to tell stories about their lives. So yeah, I just really appreciated the entropic fields of displacement and all the ways that you're both creating the video installation and spatial elements, but also like your live performance and how fun that was to watch you wander around Amsterdam and go on all these different adventures and to have that kind of childlike spirit and the superpower of this audience that's watching you and giving you the courage to do all these things that I'm not sure if I would have the courage to do all the things that are in the performance with that type of context. But yeah, lots of really interesting things as I'm watching it and just observing both the differences amongst these cities and the experiences of these women, but also the cities themselves. And yeah, just really appreciated the piece and really appreciate you taking the time to help break it all down. So thank you.
[00:45:18.837] Pegah Tabassinejad: Thank you so much. I really appreciate this conversation. That was great. Thank you.
[00:45:24.142] Kent Bye: Thanks again for listening to the Voices of VR podcast. And I really would encourage you to consider supporting the work that I'm doing here at the Voices of VR. It's been over a decade now, and I've published over 1,500 interviews. And all of them are freely available on the VoicesofVR.com website with transcripts available. This is just a huge repository of oral history, and I'd love to continue to expand out and continue to cover what's happening in the industry, but I've also got over a thousand interviews in my backlog as well. So lots of stuff to dig into in terms of the historical development of the medium of virtual and augmented reality and these different structures and forms of immersive storytelling. So please do consider becoming a member at patreon.com slash voices of VR. Thanks for listening.
