I interviewed director Ruben Cabenda about Töngö Sondi that showed at IDFA DocLab 2024. See the transcript down below for more context on our conversation.
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[00:00:05.458] Kent Bye: The Voices of VR Podcast. Hello, my name is Kent Bye, and welcome to the Voices of VR Podcast. It's a podcast that looks at the structures and forms of immersive storytelling in the future of spatial computing. You can support the podcast at patreon.com slash voicesofvr. So on today's episode, we're going to be unpacking a piece called Tongo Sandi, which is a part of the digital storytelling competition at IFA DocLab. So this is actually a 2D film, it's an animation, but when you're watching it, you're actually sitting on this installation, which essentially is like you're sitting on a toilet, and then you're looking into what kind of look like VR goggles, but it's like a long cone that is extended by probably about six feet, And when you look inside of the cone, then there are mirrors inside of it. So you kind of see a reflection of this 2D video that's playing. And so I had a chance to talk to the creator Ruben to get a little bit more context to this short piece. It's very powerful, surrealistic piece that is exploring different concepts of language and culture and identity and all the different colonial impulses that are around that. So that's where we're going on today's episode of the Voices of VR podcast. So this interview with Ruben happened on Saturday, November 16th, 2024 at IFA Doc Lab in Amsterdam, Netherlands. So with that, let's go ahead and dive right in.
[00:01:26.580] Ruben Cabenda: So my name is Ruben. I'm an artist. A few years ago, almost 10 years ago, if you would ask me if I would do digital art, it would be something that I would even think about because my background is more painting and And I always dreamed of to become a portrait painter. But when I learned a lot about digital animation, then it opened a world for me with a lot of opportunities. And that's what I like about it. And I'm so busy with that that I don't even have the time to pick up a pencil anymore or to pick up a brush anymore and paint. So that became my new love.
[00:02:12.171] Kent Bye: Well, the very fascinating thing about immersive media is that there's people that are coming from all sorts of different backgrounds and disciplines. So I'd love to hear a little bit more context as to some of your backgrounds and design traditions that you're integrating within your practice of creating immersive art.
[00:02:28.414] Ruben Cabenda: So because I come from a traditional background, when it comes to art, let's say painting and drawing, I use that to combine that in my immersive art. So it kind of helps also.
[00:02:42.315] Kent Bye: Yeah, so it sounds like with the painting, I'm just curious to also hear a little bit more about your journey going from the transition and from more physical-based media with painting and drawing into more of the digital art. What was it around your journey that was like a turning point that made you want to get more and more into the more digital side of things?
[00:02:59.300] Ruben Cabenda: What it is about painting for me is that when I, let's say I had a certain subject and I paint, I make a painting out of it, then I feel like I have to talk more or explain more or there is less information for me in a painting. But if you look at digital art or animation, then I can tell a lot also with my moving images. So when I started to see that, I began to do that more. So instead of one painting or instead of one drawing explaining or trying to explain what I want to say, now I have several images or several drawings that is explaining what I want to do. which makes it also easier for the audience to understand what I am saying. But also with that, I can create maybe an unpleasant feeling or maybe make you think about a certain subject that most people don't want to talk about. But if it is a painting, not that I'm against that, then it's just one image. You're looking at, but if it is, let's say, a lot of images, then it just will stay more with you, even if you have seen the work once or twice, but you will think about it. Nice.
[00:04:27.613] Kent Bye: And so you have a project here at IFA DocLab. And so maybe you could give a little more context for the project that you're showing here.
[00:04:34.600] Ruben Cabenda: So I have a video installation. And first it was just the animation. And actually the animation is about identity, colonialism. also about the oppressor and how, due to colonialism, that kind of changed the identity, but also the language of my ancestors and how it kind of forms how we are now today. So it was just only the video, so I added an installation, in Dutch they call it tutor, I don't know. Your focus point is on the animation and nothing else. So when you look at the work, then you're not focused on the surroundings, but you only focus on what I want to show you, what I want to tell. And also there is a toilet. Because the subject can be a bit uncomfortable to talk about. So the toilet kind of represents that. But what I've seen is that people just sit on it and for them it's just... They're happy just to sit on it and to watch the animation. So sometimes you have a certain idea how you want the audience to react on it. But when you show it, then you see that... they react differently different on the work for example when i was standing at let's say close to my work some people say oh to understand it better you need to read the text and some of them were happy that they read the text first and then saw the animation the installation
[00:06:19.830] Kent Bye: Yeah, I think when I first watched it, I watched it probably two or three times just because there was a lot of imagery at the end that I was like, okay, what just happened? And I wanted to just get a sense of the story. Because in a lot of ways, you're using what I would say is like a certain amount of dream logic, a lot of poetic metaphors to be able to... Yeah, metaphors. yeah say what you're saying and so when you're first starting with this piece you know you said that you've completed the animation and then you added the whole video installation component that gives people more of an immersive experience where they can totally focus on it because you have this big cone with mirrors that we can get into the design of what the experience of that actually is but maybe you could just take me back to when you were making this as a piece one of the things I mentioned to the curator is I said oh that's very curious I've never seen a piece that short because usually there's a minimum length of how long something needs to be. Usually it's like five, 10, 15, whatever it ends up being like one minute piece. I was like, oh, that's different. And then so Casper, one of the curators said, oh, well, actually it was able to say so much in such a small amount of time that they wanted to then be creative in how they were showing it in an immersive context. But maybe you could just take me back to the creation of this one minute poetic piece that's really exploring so many different topics that you get into.
[00:07:31.237] Ruben Cabenda: So what I do always with my animation is I don't want to make it too long. There's a practical reason for that. Sometimes it can be the budget, but sometimes it can be also that the time is not enough. For example, you have maybe two or three months to make an animation and it takes a lot of time also. So in those two months, you can only afford to make a one minute animation Or even last July, I had an exhibition in Utrecht. I was part of an exhibition, and there I presented an animation of only, let's say, 40 seconds. But that's just based on the time that you have. But also, what I want to do is that I don't want to make it long. I want to make it, let's say, long or short enough that it creates curiosity, that you long for more instead of giving you that satisfied feeling. You crave for more. So that's also my purpose for keeping it a bit short. Let's say right in between.
[00:08:43.973] Kent Bye: And what was the inciting incident or the turning point that catalyzed you to make the project in general? What was the thing that really inspired you to tell the story?
[00:08:53.039] Ruben Cabenda: So I come from a really Christian background. I was raised in a Christian way. So I can remember the story of Babel, the Tower of Babel. And there they talk about the people wanted to build a tower, but God was against that. And in that time, they could understand each other. They could speak one language. And let's say God was not happy with that. So what he did that they couldn't understand each other anymore. So that made that they couldn't build the tower even further. So this story is just a metaphor for, if I look at slavery or colonialism, is that in the beginning we spoke one language, we could understand each other, but so what the ex-colony did is they brought, let's say, We couldn't speak. They brought different people from different tribes. And that made that we couldn't really understand each other, which made it also difficult to go against them or to create, you know. Language can be such a powerful thing. If you understand each other, then you can achieve much more. So even in my country, there are a lot of differences if you look at the different people that we have. But if we speak one language, not one language like a language that we talk, but if we have one mindset, then we can achieve more. but if we have different mindsets, then it is difficult to form something and work towards a big, work towards our own, let's say our own tower.
[00:10:49.768] Kent Bye: Yeah, and so, With this connection between language and identity and culture, you're using the metaphor of a tongue and using that as the primary metaphor that is consistent throughout the course of this piece and the way that the tongue is required for speaking and the oppressor is cutting off the tongues and then having the tongue go on its own journey and then essentially further censoring people for what they can see and speak. you know, some really powerful ways that you use that as a metaphor and transmute it throughout the course of this piece. And so, yeah, as you are thinking around this topic, it's very abstract in terms of like these ideas. But on the other hand, it's very real in terms of the visceral experience and the impact of colonialism. But I'm curious how you came around to decide the tongue was going to be the primary spatial and visual metaphor that you're going to use to tell this much larger story.
[00:11:41.787] Ruben Cabenda: If you look at the human body, the tongue is really important. We use that to taste, to eat and also to speak. I think that if you don't have a tongue that it is difficult to speak or you cannot speak, you cannot really communicate. So in this case, I saw the tongue as just an important thing of communication. Because now we live in a really digital world where you don't actually need your voice or your tongue to talk. You can communicate through different things also. But for me, the tongue was really important. It was just a metaphor for speaking. Yes.
[00:12:26.969] Kent Bye: Yeah. And the seizing of the tongue and then transmuting it and transforming it into ways that are also including what people can speak as well. Like the metaphor of putting tape over your mouth or tape over your eyes. So maybe you could talk around the process of transforming the seizing of the tongues and then what the impact of that is by showing that. Yeah.
[00:12:48.253] Ruben Cabenda: Yeah, because the thing is that certain, let's say, people are afraid to talk about these subjects, about identity or about even slavery. Some people even say, then I talk about, let's say, black people, they even say that, hey, slavery was a good thing because if it didn't happen, then I wouldn't be here or I would be maybe in Africa or... But also the tape is also used to close your mouth, to not talk about certain things. And as an artist, I feel free to talk about things that others are scared to talk about.
[00:13:33.778] Kent Bye: And so there's a scene that you have in your piece that is essentially someone who's sitting on a bunch of tongues, almost like they're on a toilet. And then you use the toilet within the video installation because you had finished the animation before you did the immersive installation. What exactly was happening there? Was someone sitting on a bunch of tongues? Or yeah, maybe you could elaborate on that.
[00:13:54.147] Ruben Cabenda: So somewhere in the animation, The tongue comes out of the mouth and it's eaten by a person. So that person refers to the oppressor that is eating the tongue, the identity. So it's taken from you. And that same person is also sitting on, let's say, a toilet with different tongues. because different countries oppress also other countries. So the tongues that you see are identity or language from countries that were oppressed by the oppressor. So actually it's kind of, hey, I'm sitting on your identity. So your language, I don't know if I can curse, but your language, your identity means nothing for me. Means shit for me, I'll say that. Because in that time, the oppressor, his identity was more important than your identity.
[00:14:57.163] Kent Bye: Yeah, so in the installation that you have here at DocLab, you have people sitting on a toilet. And so is that calling out that people, as they're watching, they're kind of complicit in a way that they're just the same as people who are also sitting and eating and consuming the tongues? And I'm just wondering if you had any intention on directly implicating people or feeling like they might be complicit as they're watching it, or maybe you could just... Yeah, but in the animation...
[00:15:20.020] Ruben Cabenda: You see someone is sitting on a toilet and then you sit also on a toilet. So I wanted to make that connection also. Because sometimes we think that we are above other people due to maybe your color or the language that you speak. And that is not a good thing if you see people like that. So I wanted to make them make that connection. with the image, with that image, and with the toilet. But I also use elements that are in the animation and use them in my installation.
[00:16:00.510] Kent Bye: Yeah, so as people are watching this, they're essentially sitting on a toilet and then they put their face up to what looks like the outside of a virtual reality headset, but There's no like lenses and there's no stereoscopic effects. You're essentially looking into a big cone that has mirrors on four sides. So this kind of pyramid shape that you're looking into the film and then the film is then mirrored so you have your complete attention that's focused on the piece. And so when I was talking to the curators, Casper Sonnen said it was a short piece and, you know, they made some exceptions because it was such a powerful piece, but they wanted to do something special for the installation. And Casper said there's a number of options on the table and they decided to go with what ended up being probably the most complicated and difficult thing to pull off. But I'm wondering if you can maybe elaborate on that process of both designing the installation part and what other parts of the piece started to come out once you had it mirrored and reflected as you're watching it.
[00:16:58.123] Ruben Cabenda: Yeah, so I had, because Casper, like you said, told me that, and it needed something. So I made a few ideas, a few drawings, and the one that really captured me is, you know, you have this thing, this triangle thing, and you look in it, and that's the only thing you see. But with the other drawings, your focus is not really... the animation or this is an installation that in a way it forces you to sit and really look at it but if it was just the animation then you would look and you know you can just walk pass by that so I talked with Casper but also with my producer would like and And we really had a good conversation about, hey, what would work or what wouldn't work, or maybe you need to change that. So, because in the beginning I had in mind only a golden toilet. But I think due to budget, we couldn't do that. But now that I look at it in combination with black and gold, I think it's really beautiful. So sometimes you need to really be open for changes. And the changes can make the piece more stronger.
[00:18:17.947] Kent Bye: Yeah, the first time I watched it, I watched it probably two or three, maybe four times. It's only a minute long, so I just wanted to take it all in. And I was really focusing on just the frame of the story, and then I just watched it again right before we had this talk, just so I could refresh my mind with the piece. And the thing that I was really noticing when I just watched it again was just how the animation is projected into a 2D plane of basically a video screen. And then it's mirrored and reflected in different ways. So there's some moments in the piece that really plays off each other with you kind of soften your gaze and look at how they're feeding off each other, the image in the mirror image, especially with the hands grabbing at each other through the tongue that gets turned into a rope. And so because you've designed it obviously just to be in that 2D plane of a context of a video screen, I'm wondering if there were other surprising things that came out with the piece once you saw it in the full installation context.
[00:19:11.794] Ruben Cabenda: So the reflection was really a surprise for me because I didn't thought that you would have that reflection, but it works. I think it really works well, the reflection, especially at some parts of the animation. So I was really surprised with that also, but also with how well the glass is connected to the triangle thing. So that's what's really, yeah, a surprising part also. But also what I like is that it kind of feels like, you know, when you put on one of those glasses, those virtual glasses, that for me you look in a, it's kind of feel in a virtual world. But yeah, for me the reflection was really, really good also. It was really a surprising thing. But also the whole work itself. Because I made a few sketches. But also I created the work in 3D software. So they would have a better understanding of what I really wanted. But seeing it in front of you, I would say it's much better than what I had in mind. So yeah, the people from Popcraft, they really did a good job. And it was also... a great collaboration with the team of DocLab. Yeah, it was really good to work with them also.
[00:20:38.180] Kent Bye: When was the first time that you saw it in its full video installation context? Was it here at the festival?
[00:20:43.061] Ruben Cabenda: Yeah, the first time. What was your thoughts when you saw it? I was like, wow. I was like, well, I was if I could install this in my home, then I would just put my bed close to it and just look at it and know it was really. So this is really one of my first time where I have an idea of an installation and where I can say, hey, this is really what I had in mind and it is professionally done. And that gives me more inspiration to create more ideas, as long as you have the budget, but also the people to create it. Because I'm not that technical, but if you have people that can do it for you, then anything is possible. And I like that actually, yeah.
[00:21:39.028] Kent Bye: So there's also a quote that's above this installation that's referring to identity. Maybe you could elaborate on what that quote says and what you are also trying to communicate with that quote with the overall piece.
[00:21:50.460] Ruben Cabenda: Yeah. The sentence is, my identity makes you feel dot, dot, dot. So if you look at the animation, then you need to kind of fill it in. So my identity makes you feel what? Uncomfortable, comfortable, or more understanding. So it is something that I leave open for the viewer. Yes, but also I had in the beginning, I had another sentence in mind, and that was my language is not my identity.
[00:22:27.962] Kent Bye: I think there is a connection between ways that language can communicate thoughts or ideas and preserve culture. And so there's certainly a connection between language and culture and identity. And I think you're drawing those out in a way that's very metaphoric and symbolic in this piece. You know, when I talk to people like Lena Herzog did a piece that's called Last Whispers, and that piece was really looking at how all these languages that are not going extinct but are going dormant so that they can come back at some point so they're not completely dead but that process of all these languages that are going dormant essentially means that some languages see the world in a much more relational ontology or understand the connections or understand parts of their own history and culture and music and so for me I see there's a huge connection between language and that's connected to both the identity of people but also the culture so I don't know if you had any additional thoughts or reflections because uh
[00:23:22.549] Ruben Cabenda: The title is not in English, it's not also in Dutch, but it's in a language. They call them Saramakaners. These are one of the Maroon tribes in Suriname. My wife is a Saramakana and she speaks the language, that language. is one of the language that many people really don't understand. And I wanted to learn that language because I felt that that language, that culture is the closest to, let's say, my ancestors. So I deliberately didn't use a Dutch title or an English title because I felt that those languages are not really close to my identity or to my closest to, let's say, my ancestors.
[00:24:19.137] Kent Bye: And so can you pronounce the title and then what that gets translated into?
[00:24:23.619] Ruben Cabenda: Yeah. So the title is Tonga Sandi. Tonga Sandi. So it means literally things of a tongue. But in the language, really in the Saramakan's language, it just would mean things of a language instead of a tongue. And for me, the tongue is a metaphor for language, identity. So that's how I came to the title. That's how I created the title.
[00:24:54.301] Kent Bye: Nice. And you had mentioned that this is the first time that you've been at IFA DocLab and here at this festival. So I'm curious if you've had a chance to see any of the other pieces and what it's like to see other work, but also just get some feedback of your work and love to hear just some thoughts of your experiences here so far.
[00:25:09.798] Ruben Cabenda: So yeah, it's been great. I really need to take my time to process all of the work. But also it gives you other ideas or inspiration how you can approach your own work differently. Because there's a lot of opportunities when it comes to installation or VR or maybe AI where you sit in front like a camera and it tells something about you. So those things I find really interesting.
[00:25:41.340] Kent Bye: Awesome. And finally, what do you think the ultimate potential of this type of immersive media, immersive art might be and what it might be able to enable?
[00:25:54.105] Ruben Cabenda: I would say it opens a lot of opportunities. On one side, it is good. But maybe on the other side, you would get this feeling that we are stepping further away from reality. So how do we combine that? Or should we leave the traditional thing behind and focus only on that? And I want to combine those two things in my work.
[00:26:26.156] Kent Bye: Nice. And is there anything else that's left unsaid that you'd like to say to the broader immersive community? Keep creating. Yes. Awesome. Well, Ruben, thanks so much for joining me today on the podcast to help break down your piece that you're showing here at IFA DocLab. And, you know, I think there's just a lot of really beautiful poetic metaphors and dream logic. And yeah, this whole installation is also quite unique as well. And I think a really powerful way to sit down and take it in. And yeah, just really enjoyed the piece and very much enjoyed having a chance to sit down and break it all down. So thanks again for joining me.
[00:27:02.763] Ruben Cabenda: I want to thank you also. And I want to thank everyone that worked with me. Without them, it wouldn't be possible. So thanks to the team of DocLab. Thanks to Raoul Boulay, my producer. Yeah. Awesome. Well, thanks again. Thank you.
[00:27:21.121] Kent Bye: Thanks again for listening to the Voices of VR podcast. And I really would encourage you to consider supporting the work that I'm doing here at the Voices of VR. It's been over a decade now and I've published over 1500 interviews and all of them are freely available on the voicesofvr.com website with transcripts available. This is just a huge repository of oral history, and I'd love to continue to expand out and continue to cover what's happening in the industry, but I've also got over a thousand interviews in my backlog as well. So lots of stuff to dig into in terms of the historical development of the medium of virtual and augmented reality and these different structures and forms of immersive storytelling. So please do consider becoming a member at patreon.com slash voices of VR. Thanks for listening.
