Madame Kana is a French, transgender woman and VReporter who has been publishing a new documentary about VRChat every 2-3 weeks for the past year on her YouTube channel, and she won the Discovery Award this year at Raindance Immersive 2024 for her short film called New Eden Evergarden; Behind the Magic. She published a 39-minute documentary about last year’s Raindance Immersive 2023 edition, and she also recently published a 32-minute documentary about this year’s Raindance Immersive 2024 edition, which I highly recommend checking out as she highlights many of the projects that I have been and will be featuring on the Voices of VR podcast series featuring different Raindance Immersive artists.
I had a chance to catch up with Kana to get more information about her journey into VR, and her motivations for capturing so many different elements of virtual culture including the two Raindance Immersive documentaries from 2023 and 2024, short-form and long-form documentaries about Evergarden, a collection of meaningful moments from Public VRChat instances (Part #1 and Part #2), the Furry scene in VRChat, a vlog about how Joe Hunting’s We Met in Virtual Reality film inspired her to make her own documentaries within VRChat, an update on Dust Bunny’s VR Dance Academy, trip reports on the Virtual Market, Spookality and other VRChat horror worlds, a profile on VRChat Creator Tonton Demon, and reports on the Japanese scene in VRChat including VR Japan Tours performance group, the Japanese Jazz scene in VRChat, and an interview with Japanese musicians AMOKA.
Needless to say, it’s an impressive amount of coverage of the frontiers of virtual culture within VRChat over the past year, and certainly played a big part in why the Raindance Immersive curators Mária Rakušanová and Joe Hunting honored her with a Discovery Award. Kana is currently working on a documentary on the transgender community within VRChat as gender expression is a particularly personal interest of hers as VRChat helped her to become more public about her own transgender identity, and she sounds committed to continuing to explore the frontiers of virtual culture and continue to crank out these 10, 20, or 30-minute documentaries. Be sure to follow her on X (formerly Twitter) @Les_Gribouilles for clips and previews of her latest videos and be sure to subscribe to her YouTube channel to follow her latest completed works.
This is a listener-supported podcast through the Voices of VR Patreon.
Music: Fatality
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Rough Transcript
[00:00:05.458] Kent Bye: The Voices of VR podcast. Hello, my name is Kent Bye, and welcome to the Voices of VR podcast. It's a podcast that looks at the future of spatial computing. You can support the podcast at patreon.com slash voicesofvr. So in today's episode, I'm going to be diving into the journey of Madame Kana, also just known as Kana, who's a transgender woman from France who has been documenting the culture of VRChat for the past year plus. She's published 20 videos now on her YouTube channel, and At a pace of like once every two or three weeks, diving into some pocket of culture within VRChat. And so she went to Raindance Immersive last year and actually produced a whole documentary about Raindance. And then this year, she wanted to actually have a full documentary that she shot at this dance venue called Evergarden, which happened to have a performance during the opening day last year at Raindance Immersive. And so Kana has produced a whole half hour documentary that was a part of the short film competition. And then she ended up winning the Discovery Award from Raindance, which was a new award that was given to her just because she's been so prolific and helping to document all different aspects of the culture within VRChat. So I had a chance to sit down with her just to get a little bit more about her intentions for capturing a really in-depth look of different moments and elements of virtual culture within VRChat. Also, before we start to dive in, I'd highly recommend checking out a couple of her films just to get a little bit better sense of her work. First of all, there's the Raindance Immersive 2024, an art festival in VRChat that was just published a couple of weeks ago. A 32-minute documentary that is covering a lot of the different same artists that I'm going to be covering. And I think she's actually able to capture a lot of the spirit of both the experiences as well as the experience of what it's been like to have this Raindance Immersive festival bringing together all these artists and these creatives who are exploring the frontiers of virtual culture. Also, the New Eden Evergarden Behind the Magic VRChat documentary that was published a month ago. That's also definitely worth checking out just because it's a real masterful job of both documenting the behind the scenes people who are really in charge of bringing this all about, but also a little bit more about their collaborative process. So that's what we're coming on today's episode of the Voices of VR podcast. So this interview with Kana happened on Friday, July 19th, 2024. So with that, let's go ahead and dive right in.
[00:02:23.925] Madame Kana: Hi, my name is Madame Kana, but you can just call me Kana. That's my username. So Madame is just a little particular for the name. And I am a VR creator. I am really interested about VRChat, especially VRChat communities and content creator. So I have a YouTube channel in which I make video about what people do in this virtual space.
[00:02:52.571] Kent Bye: Great. And maybe you could give a bit more context as to your background and your journey into virtual reality.
[00:02:59.655] Madame Kana: Yes, sure. What do you know about it?
[00:03:02.436] Kent Bye: Well, I know that you started on Twitch as a VTuber and then eventually saw Joe Hunting's We Met in Virtual Reality and then started to get into VR and shoot documentaries. But yeah, I'd love to hear a little bit more about your journey into VTubing and then into virtual reality.
[00:03:16.858] Madame Kana: Ah, yeah. The story is a little bit longer than that. But initially, I come from VRChat. I was on VRChat. And this time, I was drawing in VRChat and an Instagram account about it. And I was a big fan of a world map, but I was too scared to go in by myself. So I spent time on Twitch watching people who were playing a world map. And one day, on Instagram, there was a post in French, for this case, of a VTuber who said, "Tonight, a world map in VRchat. Meeting point and time." And I said to myself, "Oh, amazing. A French person will make a world map in VRChat. Let's go. Let's go." And this is my first encounter with VTubing. And the person who was streamed became a really good, really close friend of mine. She introduced me to the medium. And she encouraged me to start too by myself. So I streamed during a year and a half, I guess. And many arts, worldhopping in VRChat, and some special event about... a podcast about the VTuber communities. I had a special program in which I invite a VTuber and speak about their life from the beginning to today, to humanize them, to start to learn the people behind the avatar. But if I'm being honest, I made a burnout because of the pressure, Twitch is based on competition and there is so, so much pressure. And I made a burnout because of that. And after that, I came back to my original love. That's why the VRChat.
[00:05:08.458] Kent Bye: Okay. So it sounds like you started in VRChat and I saw on your Instagram that you were doing drawings. Maybe you could expand on what kind of art you were making. What kind of drawings were you doing?
[00:05:18.243] Madame Kana: Oh, yes. I was a big fan of making drawing with the QV pens, the basic pens of VRChat, in words and to connect it with the world. The example that I used to use is the tropical forest, just drawing little monkeys in the trees, those kind of things. And I loved drawing in the space, and for the space, in which I was
[00:05:44.442] Kent Bye: Okay. And so when I look back and see that you posted a number of videos on YouTube, you know, you talk about We Met in Virtual Reality, which is a documentary by Joe Hunting, and you posted a video on it back in July of 2023. So maybe you could talk about seeing this film and what this film had an impact on you in terms of your journey into VR.
[00:06:06.241] Madame Kana: Yeah. "We met in Virtual Reality" has such an impact on me. Just after the burnout I made, I saw it with a friend of mine and I said to myself, it was just before opening my YouTube channel, I said to myself, "This is what I want to do." So "We Met in Virtual Reality" was really important for me. I was really fascinated about the positive vibe of it. And if I'm being honest, the first time I met Joe, I was, like we said in France, "dans mes petits chaussons." I was really, really shy about it. He's kind of an idol for me. So it was quite amazing. And before that, I never, never think about meeting him. I meet all the people in the movie. DustBunny, I think, especially DustBunny. become a close friend of mine and all the people, Jenny and et cetera, et cetera. This was really, really amazing to meet them.
[00:07:07.220] Kent Bye: Yeah. And by the time you start creating videos on YouTube, you have a look and feel of like a little mouse. And so maybe you could talk a bit about creating the avatar for Madame Khanna.
[00:07:20.581] Madame Kana: Ah, this is a fun story, if I'm being honest. I spoke about my friend who introduced me to VTubing. And one time I made a drawing about my avatar, who is not a mouse at this time, but I drew her with a little teeth. And she asked me, you look like a mouse. You must be a mouse. And she encouraged me a lot to being a mouse. So it's thanks to her I became a mouse. And I made her in 2D. I tried to adapt her in 3D. With the 3D model, I do another 2D model, and so and so until that final form that I have now. And this is all random. I never really think about becoming a mouse and the symbol behind it. But today, a French mouse will inspire people to film, to make videos. I have a sense that makes me laugh.
[00:08:25.253] Kent Bye: Yeah, and as I look back at your time on YouTube, you've been really consistent in making a new documentary video one, two, or three weeks apart. You've been consistently documenting the virtual culture in VRChat. And so what was it that really inspired you to dive headfirst into this type of documentation that you wanted to both experience the culture in VR, but also document it and share it within these documentaries?
[00:08:53.638] Madame Kana: Hmmm. If I'm being honest, I think the starting point was my meeting with Evergarden. In Evergarden, I discovered there was a really large and fascinating band of people who made art in VR. I already knew it a little bit, thanks to AMOKA and some music bands like them. But it became real with Evergarden, really, really real. And after that, you know, on VRchat, there is some blues for the people who don't know what to do in VRChat and get bored a little bit. And thanks to Evergardon, I had a second discovery of VRChat. And I said to myself, "OK, here there is people who dance, who make art. It's so cool. But it's sure there is some other people in part of VRChat who make art too. And I want to see it. I want to find them and possibly make a video about it."
[00:09:55.478] Kent Bye: Okay. Yeah. So you posted a video called the Evergarden, a secret place in VRChat back in July of 2023. And then eventually you did a whole like half hour documentary, New Eden Evergarden behind the magic that you just showed at Raindance Immersive. And so this seems like this was a key part of your getting inspired to document these secret corners of what's happening in VRChat. And you talk in that first video of how it was difficult to even get in. And so... Talk about how you managed to even find it and then get into one of the instances.
[00:10:29.183] Madame Kana: Ah, yeah. This is not a particularity of Evergarden. And the group system in VRChat simplifies the thing really, really, really. Since they reinstalled the group system, it's much more simple to attend events now. But the key part is to know that this event exists. And for myself, I use Twitter for that. because most of the VRChat creators make their communication on it. So every time I developed a feed consecrated to VRChat to try to see the most part of what happened. And each week, I make my little schedules about that. "Monday, there is an event at such hour in such place. Yeah, I have to friend request this person. OK, let's go. Friday, there is this event with this group. OK, let's go." You go to an event, you see the concert things, the parties, the event itself. But there is this person who is interesting, he speaks about, I don't know, their next concert. So, okay, let's check the Twitter of this person. Okay, this concert is Friday. Okay, I will go there. And part of that, you can see a lot of things. Like I said, in Evergarden, I discovered many people in this state of mind. I discovered a lot of other events and the cultural experience of the Raindance specifically.
[00:11:55.734] Kent Bye: Yeah, I know I had a chance to see the Evergarden last year at Raindance. And I know that with some of these shows, they can be very sensitive as to whether or not they are allowing filming or not. And so talk about the process of getting permission to be able to actually film at some of their events.
[00:12:12.336] Madame Kana: Ah yeah, this is a complex question. I used to, in my bio, say that I'm filming. If I'm being honest, with time, I developed a sense of if a person wants to be filmed, I won't do it. The person seeing me that, no, I don't want to be filmed. And they see me with the camera, just me and them. So if you don't want to, generally they said it to me. And I respect it. And I will never use an image of someone who don't want to be shared. And moreover than that, I will never share a moment of a person to discredit them. I'm here to share positive moments, emotive moments, touching moments, but never, never a bad moment or a toxic moment.
[00:13:01.448] Kent Bye: Okay, so you aired your first short piece on Evergarden back in July of 2023. And then about a year later, you showed your full documentary about New Eden Evergarden. When did you start filming that documentary that you were showing here this year at Raindance?
[00:13:18.015] Madame Kana: If I'm being honest, I started the shooting during the previous Raindance Immersive. I started in November, I guess, and finished in January, three months in the place. And after that, four months, I guess, of edit in the final version.
[00:13:38.075] Kent Bye: Okay. That gives me a good sense. It sounds like the Raindance Immersive was a pretty big turning point as well as you starting to get opened up to all these different artists and creators and communities. But if we go back to your early videos, back to like July of 2023, you also had the virtual market and Amoka. Talk a bit about covering the virtual market and connecting with AMOKA, which it seemed also Amoka as a band seemed like that was also a bit of a turning point in some ways.
[00:14:05.973] Madame Kana: Yeah, sure. With the Virtual Market, I was in some classical, I think, way of making video on YouTube. So I would go to an event and come back and speak about it, what I saw, what I learned, that kind of thing. With AMOKA, I know already a little bit I hope, so I just contact her for proposing the interview. And at the start, I was starting to thinking about speak less and let people speak for myself. And just put me in the position of the person who did interview, not of a person who speak. This is not black and white. And there is some of my video after that in which I was speaking. But the more time I spend, the more I see the direction in which I tend to
[00:15:00.686] Kent Bye: Okay, and I know that in your coverage of We Met in Virtual Reality, one of the things that you commented on was that there was just a few small moments of some people that were talking about being non-binary and their expressions of gender within VR. And I know that you've covered a little bit of the Trans Academy within VRChat as well. And you talked about some LGBT issues in the furry community. And so I'd love to hear about your interest in exploring gender in the context of virtual reality.
[00:15:30.794] Madame Kana: Ah, yes, sure. This is a personal matter, I guess. I'm trans. So in VRChat, I learned that what I am is not a shame. For if I'm being honest, I was born in a time, especially in France, that we didn't speak about that. There is no word for speaking about that. And I grew up in shame of what I am, of what I was, and in my mind to keep it secret all my life. But in VRChat, I learned that is normal, that I don't have to be ashamed of it to hide myself. And VRChat helped me to associate publicly. And I'm really thankful for that.
[00:16:18.260] Kent Bye: And so with your trans identity, is that something that you were exploring as a 2D VTuber? Or do you feel like going into VR and VRChat and exploring different avatars? Was there a period of you exploring identity through the medium of VRChat? Or is that something that you had already settled upon before you even entered into VR?
[00:16:41.187] Madame Kana: I started before Vtubing. There was a moment I was a little bit on Twitch. Before that, I had a friend who streamed on his own channel and regularly invited me to stream with him. But I was mute at this time and he animate his stream and I was in the background dancing or drawing like a psychic. And one day, he spoke about me to his chat, and when the moment to use a pronoun to qualify me, he hesitated and used "them." And after that, on Discord, we talked, and I said to him, you can call me "she." And this was a turning point. But it was before VTubing, at my early beginning in VRChat.
[00:17:29.830] Kent Bye: Okay. That makes sense. And so as you're exploring some of these different communities, like the furries, I love how you're able to embed yourself for like an extended time, like a month or two, you said you would commit yourself to these different communities and start documenting them. And so you did a whole profile on furries. And so maybe talk about how that documentary came about to focus on furries.
[00:17:56.615] Madame Kana: To be honest, I'm a big fan of things that people said about it. "This is weird." When it's weird, it fascinates me. When I was younger, I was really fascinated about the freak show. In this period, I had a theatrical company and we made a show about freak shows, just like it. And this kind of passion never leave me. I love things that people said it's weird. And Furry as well. But if you are not an Internet person, Furry is weird. But when I see people dressing themselves like they are plushies, I said to myself, is that an interesting subject? I want to learn more about that. What are you doing? I want to know. I want to know. Tell me, tell me.
[00:18:46.124] Kent Bye: And so it sounds like your method is to have a curiosity, have a question, think something might be weird, and then you want to investigate it and really dig into it. And then you start to have these different conversations with different community members and then produce the output of your research, of your curiosity into these little documentaries. And also profiling different worlds that are happening within VR. There's a number of different pieces that you do covering different horror worlds, like Spookality. I guess they're a little bit like trip reports. Like you explore what's happening in VR and then you report back and then... summarize some of your main takeaways, but also, you know, like when I go into VR, I'm much more focused on experiencing the world. But when you are creating these videos, you're also documenting these different moments. And so what's your process in doing that? Do you experience the world first or do this real-time collection of your experience? So just curious if you do the world first or if you go back and film it again, or if you are always just filming your own experience as you go through things.
[00:19:52.914] Madame Kana: I used to work on some videos at the same time. For example, now I have four videos on which I was working on. And it depends on what I found. Sometimes I start working on a subject, but I meet for a world, I can't access to the event. There is something that blocks the process. So I just put it away and start working on other things. And I just run many videos and many projects at the same time and I just follow the wind. Like I said, I... if I'm being honest, I used to compare my process to be on a boat and just let the wind and the wave send me somewhere. The destination is frequently I don't know, but always a discovery.
[00:20:48.890] Kent Bye: So the metaphor being that you would just get on a boat and then let wherever the wind is blowing you, you would follow that lead and just take it one step at a time, it sounds like. And so one of the other turning points was this We Met in Virtual Reality, which features Dust Bunny as one of the main characters. And then she's in the process of... starting what would eventually become the Virtual Reality Dance Academy. And so maybe talk about following up with Dust Bunny and having a little bit of a follow-up for what we see within We Met in Virtual Reality and then documenting what happened to the VR Dance Academy after that.
[00:21:24.192] Madame Kana: Yeah, this was like for all those videos that I do, a little bit random. I just saw on Twitter that our students will make a presentation of work, a public presentation of work. And I just asked them on Twitter, "Excuse me, can I come and record it?" And she said "Yes!" So yeah, cool. And I made a little video about it that I posted on Twitter. And after that, naturally, I just asked her, "Can I make a video about what you do in the VRDA and make a video about it?" And we did it. She gave me the full access on the rehearsal and spent a few time with DustBunny and the students filming and watching the work at the VRDA. And we make this video after that.
[00:22:15.819] Kent Bye: And so you were pretty involved in immersing yourself into different communities in VRChat and producing documentaries. And then Raindance Immersive comes along in 2023. That was happening all throughout the month of November. And you fully immerse yourself and start to do interviews with different artists and creators, but also ended up producing a whole half hour documentary on Raindance Immersive 2023. So maybe talk about your experiences at Raindance and how that may have provided you some inspiration to have a piece for the next Raindance.
[00:22:50.933] Madame Kana: Yeah, Raindance was really, really important for me. I take my pass that Evergarden took my heart, but if I'm being honest, Raindance too. And for me, a person who would do video about virutal culture and the creators, Raindance was the perfect place to be. And all of what I saw of then was amazing. The project, the people. This is a golden matter, if I can say that. So I really want to show that in the best way possible. So I try to record it as the best I can. And it's really complex, for being honest, to capture a moment indirect. This is really not like making a script and many footage for something more cinematographic. Capturing a live moment is really different and a bit hard too. And with this edition of Raindance, I started to create some techniques for losing some less footage possible. And with this is really important in many cases for the person who made it, for the project itself, and also for the things I learned.
[00:24:01.937] Kent Bye: So you said you developed some techniques for capturing these live moments. Were you recording like an entire event or are you saying that you would only capture small snippets so that would be easier to edit because you're more focused on what you were capturing?
[00:24:17.036] Madame Kana: It depends on what I want to do with this image. After that, I have the chance to edit the video by myself. So I think I have the edit-maker view of it. For example, during the last Raindance, during the VHS performance by Amen Record and Regina Baobab. There is one song when I sing myself. "This is the one. This is the one I want for the video. Okay, let's get focused on it. Let's get focused on Sheena because she's singing it." But after that, I was free of making more extra shots. So I made some little tricks. of close shooting that I can record with the main part. There is a long moment in which I was only with the people in the public capturing their face, their reaction, their feet who beat the rhythm, this kind of thing.
[00:25:13.533] Kent Bye: And I noticed that you had featured another TikTok creator that I had a chance to meet at one of the previous Raindances, Lenny, who goes to these different worlds and captures different moments. And so maybe just talk about TikTok and if you've really settled on YouTube as your primary platform to create these videos, because I know you also do some shorts on TikTok, but also that you've put things on Twitter that will be a little bit more of a snippet that doesn't make it into a final YouTube video, but yeah, I'd love to hear about how you think about each of these different outlets and platforms to document what's happening in VRChat.
[00:25:51.906] Madame Kana: Yeah, I try to share it a little bit on TikTok and Instagram, but I'm not a network person. This is a lot of work and this is a state of mind just for having more views or that kind of thing. And if I'm being honest, this is not my goal. I don't really care if I have 100 or 1,000 views. The only thing I want is to make things that I'm proud of and make a good job. And spending time to make things for TikTok or Instagram today appears to me like a loss of time. And I prefer to really get focused on YouTube and Twitter. So for the little edit and for the communication part, but the YouTube and Twitter are really my networks.
[00:26:44.840] Kent Bye: Yeah, I definitely got that vibe because you're putting an incredible amount of work into these videos. And it sounds like that it's both you want to document your own experiences, but also share a little bit more around what's happening. And so you call yourself a V reporter. So you're reporting on what's happening, but you're also sharing your own experiences. So you're doing these kind of like trip reports. For me, I choose to fully immerse myself into the experience. I'm not worried about videoing or capturing. And then I use a podcast medium as a way of talking about my experience because I feel like that gives me more leeway. But you have to split your attention when you're both capturing experience, but also experiencing it. So I'm not sure how you've figured out how to balance that between becoming just an observer where you're not worried about what it looks like on film versus... always thinking about how you're going to translate this immersive experience into something that might translate into looking good into a 2D video.
[00:27:46.054] Madame Kana: I think my goal is to share this experience and to show to people who don't play VRChat what is possible in VRChat. And put them in the first place in the cinematographic way, but in the first place, like if it were them, we were here. But I also make videos for people who play VRChat but don't know what is possible in VRChat. There is a lot of people on VRChat who just play "Murder" or that kind of thing. There is no problem with that. But I want to say to them, "Hey! There is that here and there is that here. Hey, do you want to come to a concert or come to see people dancing?" I want really to show off all of that because this is the most beautiful part of VRChat. And not only the art part, but also the human part. I used to watch videos or get focused on battle of jokes and punchy moments. Something in the TikTok vibe, something really punchy, really "What the Fuck?" and that kind of thing. But VRChat is much, much more than that. And there is so many moments, really human, really touching, really... There were so many moments that I met people that made me cry because what they said was so, so, so beautiful. And this is what I really intend to show.
[00:29:08.277] Kent Bye: Yeah, I know that, you know, there's some moments that I was watching through your videos where you were saying, making mention of different French directors. And I know that France and French cinema has such a rich history in terms of like helping to push forward the language of film. And so I'm wondering if, are there any inspirations that you take from either other directors of French cinema or other art forms of when you think about your own practice of making documentaries, if you're taking inspiration from any other artists?
[00:29:40.038] Madame Kana: I don't think I'm taking inspiration from a particular artist. But in France and Germany, we have a television channel in common called Arte. And this is a channel for documentaries. I watch it a lot, especially on YouTube. They have a YouTube channel, a really quality YouTube channel. And I watch a lot of documentaries. And my goal is to make videos that you could see on it. not making video for YouTube, but making the most possible documentaries.
[00:30:14.554] Kent Bye: Yeah, I'm a documentary lover myself, so definitely been enjoying your work as you've been doing a great job of documenting what's happening in the VRChat scene. Yeah, and so with the Evergarden, that seems like a pretty important part of your journey into VR and being inspired with some of the early videos, but also immersing yourself into that community for three months. And there's obviously the spectacle of the show that they're producing, but there's also a big part of what you're documenting is the process by which that they're actually creating it. And that you wanted to really go behind the magic as it were to show how it's all put together, or at least show a little bit more context as to these communities that were coming together. And so can you just elaborate a little bit more on that? Evergarden and what was it that really drew you to that community and why you wanted to really pull the curtains back and understand how the process that they were using in order to make it.
[00:31:13.088] Madame Kana: Yeah, if I'm being honest, the contrary was above all an excuse for no. I am a big fan of Evergarden and I personally want to know how they did that. For example, the performer on stage brings a dragon. So yeah, that's cool. But is this a person in the public instance who did it? This is the artist him self or someone on the team? And this is the kind of thing that I want to know. And the first movement that pushed me to make this documentary is to satisfy my own curiosity.
[00:31:49.830] Kent Bye: Yeah, and I think someone asked during the Q&A if you were using the process of filming just to have an excuse to always get into the instance. And I think you, what was your answer to that?
[00:32:00.649] Madame Kana: Yeah, sure, sure. It's a privilege to be here. And they thank me for that. Today, I can confess that I am always the first in the fight for going in. So I'm very thankful to them for that. And I think this is my reward for working on what they do here.
[00:32:21.561] Kent Bye: I think one of the other interesting things about being in VR and filming is that you can actually choose an avatar where you're completely invisible and that no one can see you. And so you really become this fly on the wall. And so talk to me about what it was like to be the ghost of everything. Yeah.
[00:32:40.267] Madame Kana: This is really particular if I'm being honest, I spent three months with them and I think I know them. I learned to know them and to love them because I heard them talking about the work, personal things that I haven't recorded because this is not the subject, but I start to know them. But I was most of the time invisible and mute. So I was like a kind of ghost because I know them, but I don't think they really know me. For them, I think I was just this little circle floating in the air and watching them. But I was, I think at this time, a positive presence in the Evergarden, and they start, with weeks, making jokes about me, like, oh, Kana, I saw you! Or things like Trudius, the headset manager of Evergarden, there is one month, each time he saw me, he make a fuck with his hand. Each time! And that's why there is a fuck that we do in the edit, because I had to show it. This kind of vibe is a part of the character. So for being honest, that makes me really, really love. And I don't really want, I want someday make just a compilation of him doing this fuck.
[00:33:59.898] Kent Bye: Okay, and so one of the other themes that I think comes up in your videos is remarking on how you can be in one place in the world and you can connect to people from around the world and that there's a number of videos where you're diving into different aspects of the Japanese VRChat community, starting with Amoka, but also with the VR Japanese tour and the Japanese jazz scene. So talk a bit about your interest in documenting some of what's happening in the Japanese scene of VRChat.
[00:34:29.878] Madame Kana: Yes, sure. I think this is not especially a fascination about Japanese culture, but my goal is to go where things happen. And the Japanese VRChat community is one of the most important community of creators in VRChat. A lot of events are made by Japanese people, and naturally, I was interested by it. The difficulty with the Japanese community, a lot of them don't speak English. So I have to make a video, come with a friend of mine who speaks Japanese, who makes a translation, and that kind of thing. But the Japanese VRChat community is really creative, really, really creative. I think this is a part of the Japanese culture itself. Everybody knows the proximity between Japan and new technologies and the Japanese people and virtual is totally natural. And they have years and years of advance compared to many countries in the occident.
[00:35:34.454] Kent Bye: Yeah. And I think one of the other things that you've been also looking at is the differences between the public and private worlds. I think a lot of these events we've been talking about are in these private instances, but you've started a new series recently back in May of 2024. And then you have your next video that's coming up here on the 21st of July. where you're diving into public worlds and documenting some of the different worlds that people are hanging out in, but also just capturing what's happening in public worlds. And so maybe talk about diving into these public worlds and some of the unique challenges, which is that you have anybody coming in and the trolling, but yet at the same time, You're also capturing like these authentic moments of totally random people connecting to each other. And so, yeah, I'd love to hear you elaborate a little bit more about what you're trying to capture in this series of looking at the public worlds on VRChat.
[00:36:29.761] Madame Kana: Yeah, sure. This is a connect that I say bypassed, but I want to show to people what VRChat is. And a few months ago, I realized that there have been a lot of years that I didn't go to public world. The thing is that many people starting the first time you go in VRChat, you go in a public world, a random public world and see what happens. And this first contact is really important. The first word where you go is determinant for the next. And yeah, like I said, this was many years that I didn't go to public world. And I suppose to myself to say, "Oh, how good was the Black Cat for a time? Or, oh, there is many people in this world. What happened?" And just to see what happened and capture it when the moment is showing something about VRChat. And this is a person who speaks about their journey. This is a person who plays music. Sometimes this is just a person who's doing funny things or a person alone just playing. But this is the reality of VRChat. And this is what I want to show off to people. VRChat is not only tiny little avatars who are making a joke and being toxic. There's so much more.
[00:37:50.353] Kent Bye: Yeah, you also had a chance to participate and attend a lot of events throughout the course of Raindance Immersive 2024, and you featured your new Eden Evergarden, which you, at the end of the day, you took home the Discovery Award for Raindance, which I think it might have been actually a new award created to honor some of the work that you've been doing, both in documenting what's happening at festivals like Raindance, but also in the VRChat culture in general. So maybe talk a little bit about what that meant for you to take home the discovery award there at Raindance this year.
[00:38:23.951] Madame Kana: If I'm being honest, it was such an honor. I would be honored to have the prize for the best movie. But really, this one seems to me a better more. This is a prize to... It's like I felt it, but this is a prize to rewrite my journey, my parcours, what I do. during one year. And like I said, Joe is really important for me. He was like an inspiration for me. But Maria is really amazing too. She became a friend this past year. And what they said about me, especially because there was them who speak of me and all the kind things they said about me. I was... Just talking about it now, I started crying and this was really, really moving and I'm really, really thankful for that. And I hope that I don't dissapoint anybody in the future.
[00:39:20.830] Kent Bye: Yeah, I could tell that it was really emotionally moving and meant a lot to hear the ways that both Marie and Joe were honoring you in that moment and the work that you've been doing here on YouTube and hoping to just capture what's happening with these different events. And I know that I had a chance to attend a little over 20 different events this year at Raindance, and I'll be following up and doing different interviews with different folks. And I know I saw you at a lot of the different events as well. I know you had a chance to attend pretty much all the ones that you, I think you probably wanted to see and to capture some footage. And you were able to produce another really extensive documentary, you know, focusing on some of the highlights you weren't, you know, obviously covering every single event, but you were able to cover through montages, lots of different sequences, but also focus on specific stories of some of the individual creators. And so maybe just talk about your experience this year at Raindance Immersive and all the different things you got to see and trying to distill it all down into this latest video of Raindance Immersive, an art festival and VRChat.
[00:40:22.605] Madame Kana: Yes, sure. At the beginning, this is the thing that I learned from Joe. Joe helped me for the edit with his feedback for the edit of the documentary about weddings. And he learned me that it's really important to have characters to get focused on some people to follow during the process, during the video. And the first day of Raindance, I say myself, "OK, you have one hour to choose some people to get focused on. OK, woo. And I chose StarHeart, I chose DustBunny, and I chose Steph." So after that, in each event, I cross them, I make a lot of footage of their reactions, get focused on them during the interaction, during the moments they speak about with the others, this kind of thing. And the really amazing thing is that the three won in their own categories. So I was really, really, probably really happy for them. But after that, I said to myself, "This is amazing for the edit of the video. We start with them and at the end, they won." So this is really satisfying, I guess, for the viewer who sees the video.
[00:41:41.434] Kent Bye: Yeah, you managed to capture people that ended up picking up words there at the end, which is really great luck in that sense. So I guess you had a good intuition for who to follow throughout the course of this piece. One of the things that you had mentioned in your six-month retrospective review was just commenting on English and how a lot of your videos that you're posting on YouTube are in French. And I was able to oftentimes either turn on the subtitles that were English or sometimes people were speaking in English. And so then you have the French subtitles and then sometimes you have Japanese language in there. And so maybe talk about what has the experience been like for you to... be in French and be a native French speaker, but to use English in the context of these videos or in the editing than just if being in VR has helped to improve your English or like just navigating being a content creator, choosing to produce things in French, but also some of your later videos now are in English first rather than in French first. And so, yeah, just how you start to think about that and navigate that in terms of the content that you're creating.
[00:42:50.233] Madame Kana: Yeah. Like I said, I go where people are doing things. And the Japanese community is really pleasant, but the English community too. The Americans above all. And it was natural to meet them, to chronic them. And the English is the mondial languages. And just here today, I try to speak in English because I still learning it, but I understand it pretty well. And in the same way, I don't want to leave behind the French community who follow me. That's why I try to make the video accessible to both these linguistic communities. And if I work on the video about the Japanese community, to make it accessible to the Japanese community, obviously.
[00:43:44.602] Kent Bye: Yeah, that makes sense. I know that in Raindance 2023, you attended and you had aspirations for having a film be shown at the following Raindance, which you did with the New Eden Evergarden Behind the Magic. So when you think about next year for Raindance 2025, do you have in mind a project that you want to shoot and film and have premiere next year at Raindance?
[00:44:06.685] Madame Kana: Yeah, for R, yeah. I have some ideas, but I have to think about it. Yeah, I actually have three ideas of things that I could do for it, but I have to think a little bit about it before starting shooting and working really on it.
[00:44:23.823] Kent Bye: Yeah. And you've also maintained a pretty aggressive pace of producing a new 10 to 20 to 30 minute documentary every one to two to three weeks since going all the way back to June 23rd, 2023. So you've been doing this now for over a year. And so I'm just curious if you're intending on maintaining this pace of producing a new documentary every couple of weeks here about what's happening in VRChat.
[00:44:51.977] Madame Kana: Yeah, I think I will continue to produce in this rhythm as long as I can, sincerely speaking. As long as I can have my home and my Internet connection, I will continue to do that. The next big one is interesting, but I don't know at this time when they will be released. This is a documentary about the trans community in VRChat, so a really important subject for me, and I want to take the time to make things good. And I will release it when everything will be ready. Maybe two months, three months, four months. I don't know. And meanwhile, tiny videos, I think, on a little bit tiny subject, just for keeping afoot.
[00:45:44.312] Kent Bye: Yeah, that makes sense because I saw a video that you had of one of the founders of the Trans Academy talking about it. And so, yeah, I've seen some clips. So it's really great to hear that you're going to be doing a bit more of a deep dive into what's happening with the trans community on VRChat. So very much looking forward to that piece. Are there any other communities that you see on VRChat that you feel like you want to do a deep dive into and to learn more about?
[00:46:10.185] Madame Kana: Yeah, there is communities, but I haven't started at all to work about it. But I know there is in Japan some group who make fashion show on VRChat with Booth, Booth avatar, Booth clothes, this kind of thing. And I really want to see that one day. But for the moment, I haven't success to understand how to join the event. And there is many events in this kind. And I really want to focus on some aspect on VRChat, but speaking about other things. There is a lot of world, the liminal space spirit, like The Back Rooms, that kind of thing in VRChat. I think also to the world of DrMorro, ot's such a masterpiece. And someday I really want to make a video about the liminal space in VRChat of the world made in this spirit. Also to the world made for people, but there is nobody in it. And this is liminal space too. And I think there is many, many things said about that on VRChat and other culture too.
[00:47:15.302] Kent Bye: Yeah, definitely a lot of liminal spaces in VRChat. And I noticed that you had a little call out to The Back Rooms at the end of your interview with AMOKA where it was almost like a bait and switch where you said you were going to dive into AMOKA and what that led to. And then you cut to The Back Rooms and the next video, you kind of dig more into like these different horror maps, including The Back Rooms. But yeah, I'm just curious if you have any thoughts on why you cut to the liminal space at the end of your AMOKA video.
[00:47:43.578] Madame Kana: Yeah, this is ah -- the liminal space really fascinates me. And each time there is a new map that will be released about Backroom or liminal, I go in and I love to explore. I think my favorite world are the big ones with many secrets to find, many ways to get lost, many things to see. And there is a lot of wonderful maps, of beautiful maps, of scary maps too, about that. And yeah, I think there is really a lot of things to say about that, because more than the liminal space we could agree, this is just art. This is just an experience, an art experience. And I spoke about DrMorro, but for me, he's the greatest artist of all VRChat. What he does with his trilogy of maps is kind of fascinating. There is clearly a sense in it, but all is hidden behind symbols. And someday, I really want to capture all the symbols, take pictures of it, and retrace the origin of it, in the hope to understand a bit what he wants to tell us with his creation. But this is a big project and a big, big, big, big... work to do, so maybe one day.
[00:49:01.690] Kent Bye: Yeah, certainly as you were talking about the liminal spaces, I was thinking about DrMorro's trilogy with The Organism. And yeah, there's definitely, you know, on the surface, DrMorro says that there's no story, but I suspect there might be a story. And I also wonder if that's part of a story that if he's willing to really dive into in terms of like what he can and cannot say, especially because he's currently living in Russia. And yeah, there seems to be some metaphorical criticism that's happening. But you know, on the surface, he says that there's no story there, but I suspect that there might be some, even if it's just his connections to his memories as a child growing up in Russia.
[00:49:39.690] Madame Kana: Yeah, I think so too. And there is in these last two maps, we can suggest that what happened in this world between the birds and the butterfly. So I think there is a lot of symbols behind it. And the thing really catch me, that the second map, the first symbol you saw is a portrait of René Magritte, a French artist, surreal artist. And for me, it's like an intention declaration.
[00:50:12.172] Kent Bye: Yeah. Yeah. That would be a fascinating series that I would certainly watch just to dig more into that. So, yeah. So, well, I guess as we start to wrap up, I'd love to hear what you think the ultimate potential of virtual reality might be and what it might be able to enable.
[00:50:28.884] Madame Kana: Oh... If I'm being honest, I think we know in the real world since the beginning of the cyberpunk age, all the prophecy in the cyberpunk movies and books and culture come to being real now. So I think going so fast, if I go back to the time, I said to the little me, "One day you will have a headset on your head and you will see a jazz concert with Japanese people." I will just watch you and say, "What are you talking about? This is a science fiction. What are you talking about?" And I said to the little me, but 10 years ago, I think I will say the same thing. So the future... I don't think so. Things are going so fast.
[00:51:22.536] Kent Bye: Yeah, I guess, is there anything else that's left unsaid that you'd like to say to the broader immersive community?
[00:51:28.139] Madame Kana: Yeah, I think always be curious, always. Take the risk to go in because there is sometimes bad moments, bad people, but there is a sea of wonderful things waiting you in this space. So just don't stop. Just stay in front of mirrors. It's happened to me too sometimes, but don't just stay in front of mirrors. Be curious. It's really important. And I think the most beautiful part of VRChat is always a surprise. And for being surprised, you have to take a risk.
[00:52:14.269] Kent Bye: Awesome. Well, Kana, thanks so much for joining me here on the podcast. You've been really dedicated to diving into recording an incredible amount of videos and publishing them over the last year plus. And yeah, just really appreciate your take on capturing these different moments and putting them together and sharing them to the wider world so that folks can see all the diversity of what's happening in the context of VRChat. I'm very much looking forward to your next projects and congratulations again on taking home the Discovery Award at Raindance Immersive 2024.
[00:52:44.878] Madame Kana: Thank you for the opportunity. Thank you so much.
[00:52:48.060] Kent Bye: So that was Madame Khanna. She's a V reporter who has been publishing an incredible amount of documentaries about VRChat over the past year on her YouTube channel. And she actually took home the Discovery Award this year at Braindance Immersive 2024. So I have a number of different takeaways about this interview is that first of all, Well, I'm just super impressed with the prolific nature of how much Madame Kana, or also known as just Kana, has been immersing herself into these different pockets of virtual culture and documenting things that are happening in the French scene of VRChat, what's happening on the American side, also the Japanese culture. So she's taken this whole cinema verite approach of capturing these moments and then focusing on a couple of characters and then getting different interviews and getting a little bit more context i really enjoyed the public worlds documentaries that she's starting to dive into now just because you know people who talk about VRChat often are focusing on what's happening in the private world scene but just to capture these little ephemeral moments that are happening on the public instance side are also just really heartwarming as well so definitely recommend checking that out I also really enjoy just going through her backlog and looking at some of her other profiles of the furry community. And, you know, I highly recommend turning on the captions because some of it has English captions. Sometimes it's just translation from the French. And so there's some stuff that isn't translated, but it does a pretty good job of the automatic transcriptions on YouTube for checking out a lot of her previous work that she's been doing, kind of diving into her the different aspects of virtual culture, some of the horror shows, the VR Dance Academy with Dust Bunny, and yeah, some of this kind of liminal spaces. Then super looking forward to her extended profile of the trans community within VRChat. And there's some clips that appear in the latest video on the public worlds that are really heart moving as well. Just definitely recommend checking out those as well. So for Kana, her motivation isn't to get like a huge amount of views, but to really capture the heart and spirit of what she's witnessing within these different communities and to share it in a way that is at the level of quality of the documentaries that she sees on Arte. And so I think as she continues to just iterate and shoot, she's really refining her own style for how to capture these moments and to tell the story of what's happening within these communities. She was really super inspired by Joe Hunting's We Met in Virtual Reality, which if you haven't seen that, definitely recommend checking that out on Max. But her feedback from Joe, just that a big part of what made that documentary successful was that he was really focusing on six main protagonists and following their story over the course of lots of time and seeing how these different relationships were developing with them. And sometimes with the topics that she's covering, like the New Eden Evergarden, it's less about one individual who you're following, but it's more about this kind of ensemble cast and how they break it up and how they have these different teams and how they're practicing and getting feedback and stuff. Yeah, just this ensemble cast of people that are coming together to create this art. In this sense, just a lot of people who are wanting to have this experience of being a part of a dance team or producing a piece of art that would be way beyond the scope of any one individual, but them all coming together is able to produce this really amazing experience. So that's a whole half hour documentary that's definitely worth checking out. And I think as she's moving forward and even with her Raindance immersive coverage, trying to focus on a few of the people that she is following throughout the course of an event and Raindance's case, it's over the course of a month and trying to highlight the individual stories. And it just so happens that a lot of the people that she ended up following ended up winning main awards there at the end of the festival as well. So highly, highly recommend checking out the Raindance Immersive 2024. And she also did a behind the scenes of Raindance Immersive last year of 2023, nearly a 39 minute documentary going into a lot of the history and the philosophy of Raindance Immersive. So that's also really great just to get a little bit more from both Maria and Joe talking a little bit more about the festival. So yeah, definitely check out a lot of Kana's videos on her YouTube channel of Madame Kana. Also, Twitter ends up being a really great resource for her to track what's happening in the VRChat scene. And it also happens to be a place where a lot of people from the VRChat community still are broadcasting different events. And so that's been a great way for her to be introduced to a lot of these different communities on VRChat. So that's all I have for today, and I just wanted to thank you for listening to the Voices of VR podcast. And if you enjoyed the podcast, then please do spread the word, tell your friends, and consider becoming a member of the Patreon. This is a supported podcast, and so I do rely upon donations from people like yourself in order to continue to bring you this coverage. So you can become a member and donate today at patreon.com slash voicesofvr. Thanks for listening.
