#1366: Electric South’s Ingrid Kopp on Increasing Access to Immersive Production Resources to African XR Creators + Tribeca 2019 Program

I interviewed Electric South director Ingrid Kopp during Tribeca Immersive 2019. See more context in the rough transcript below.

This is a listener-supported podcast through the Voices of VR Patreon.

Music: Fatality

Rough Transcript

[00:00:05.412] Kent Bye: The Voices of VR Podcast. Hello, my name is Kent Bye, and welcome to the Voices of VR podcast. It's a podcast that looks at the structures and forms of immersive storytelling and the future of spatial computing. You can support the podcast at patreon.com. So in today's episode, I'm featuring an interview that I previously did with Ingrid Kopp, who is one of the founders of Electric South, which is based in South Africa, but is trying to create these different workshops and resources and support for a lot of African-based XR creators to be able to produce their immersive stories. And the previous conversation that I had with Omer Reggie, Oscar Poehler, in the piece called We Speak Their Names and Hushed Tones, some of the different workshops at Electric South was pretty key in being able to produce that piece. And there's been other pieces that I've also talked with over the years that have been produced out of Electric South. And I did this interview with Ingrid back at Tribeca 2019 when she was a programmer there. And so we talk a bit about the program of 2019 from Tribeca, but also her vision of trying to make XR more accessible, and through that, a lot of her work with Electric South, which continues to today. So that's what we're covering on today's episode of the Voices of VR podcast. So this interview with Ingrid happened on Sunday, April 28th, 2019, at the Tribeca Film Festival in New York City, New York. So with that, let's go ahead and dive right in.

[00:01:27.490] Ingrid Kopp: My name is Ingrid Kopp. I am a programmer of Storyscapes here at the Tribeca Film Festival. I'm actually based in South Africa, and I run my own non-profit there called Electric South, incubating and producing and exhibiting VR in Africa with African artists.

[00:01:41.287] Kent Bye: Great. So maybe you could tell me a bit of the story of how you got into this immersive space.

[00:01:46.386] Ingrid Kopp: Yeah, it's a long story. Initially I was working in television and documentaries and I was always really interested in, at the time we were fighting to get PD150, Sony PD150, those are the cameras we were using at the time, the sort of cheap prosumer cameras, fighting to have them recognized as broadcast quality because it meant that it was more accessible for filmmakers to make documentaries. And so I got really interested in the links between technology, changing technologies and film practice. and access, like that was something that has always really interested me. And then when social media kind of exploded and Twitter launched in 2007, I think, I started working a lot with filmmakers, mostly around promoting their films on social media. At that point, I'd moved to New York from London. And through that, I started to see that people were actually not just using social media and the internet to promote films, traditional films, but actually to make new kinds of stories. And actually, you know, it was the idea of the internet as a medium and not a pipe. And that's really what got me into this. I got hired by Tribeca Film Institute to run a new department, the interactive department. And through doing that, I started funding work and we started producing TFI Interactive, this big conference at the festival. And then I was like, well, we should be showing more of this work. And this was before VR really exploded again. So it was more like web documentaries and app experiences and things like that. So we started showing work in 2013. And I've been programming Storyscapes. So it started with just Storyscapes. I've been programming Storyscapes ever since, but now the virtual arcade has sort of exploded around Storyscapes. And here we are with Tribeca Immersive.

[00:03:23.825] Kent Bye: Great. Yeah, so there's 22 different experiences here. And so your role as a programmer, it seems like, to be connected to creators, to see who's creating what, to, as best you can, go to places and see work. Because some of these pieces have immersive theater components. And so in some of these cases, they don't fully congeal until they actually show up here. And so there's different phases in which a project is incubating. So what is the process for you as you're in South Africa to try to help curate this overall show here?

[00:03:54.646] Ingrid Kopp: Well, I do spend an awful lot of time on airplanes. So I'm not doing all of this from Cape Town. But actually, being in South Africa has been really challenging in many ways. But in some ways, I think it's actually really forced me to think more, I guess, more consciously, be really intentional about the way that I curate and program. because it's not easy for me to get to all the film festivals and studios and do artist visits and things like that as it was when I was living in New York. But it does really mean that I'm sort of hyper-focused and really thinking about where I do need to be and maybe looking a little bit sideways at where work is coming from. rather than always going to the usual suspects. But yeah, I mean, obviously I travel to a lot of film festivals that are doing really interesting work in the space. You know, IDFA, Sundance. I haven't been to Venice yet, but I would love to do that too. And then trying to just do as many studio visits as possible, go to showcases, look at who's funding work. I mean, obviously following the money is always a way. You know, it's really interesting this year that we've got three projects funded by Creative XR in the UK. There's something really interesting happening in the United Kingdom because there's government money funding this work. So I'm always thinking about that, like who's funding, who's supporting, and then again, who's not doing that and where do we need to work a little bit harder to make sure that work's coming from everywhere and not just from particular regions. So yeah, I would say actually in some ways being thrown out of the loop and being in a country where there isn't such an amazing immersive community has meant that I'm actually maybe paying attention in a different way. to finding the work. And then you were talking about sort of the immersive experiences. A lot of that is based on interesting conversations and trust, because I don't always see the full experience until it's here. You know, it's often impossible. So I see builds, and I know the companies or maybe the creators, and maybe we talk through what's going to happen. But there is a lot of luck and trust involved. And I kind of love that, to be honest. It's really It's exciting, because you never quite know what you're going to get. And you never quite know if it's going to work or not.

[00:05:54.204] Kent Bye: Yeah. And it's interesting, because I was just talking to Casper Sonnen. And he's someone who's also a programmer. And we were just talking about how there's a small group of people that have the opportunity to go to all these different festivals, whether it's Sundance, or Tribeca, and Venice, and if a doc lab, and to these different places like VRLA, or regional conferences. There's a certain corpus of experiences that something like the Collider here is maybe we'll see 100 or 150 people see it at this conference. And then another 300 to 500 people total will ever get a chance to see it, at least for how it's been shown at this point. And so it's a little bit of being able to go to these places and have access to these experiences, but then to try to figure out what's new. What are the trends? What's different about this? to have that decision as to what is it about this project that's interesting. Just curious to hear about your own process of that.

[00:06:47.396] Ingrid Kopp: Yeah, I'm actually thinking a huge amount about that right now because, obviously, as a festival programmer, I'm always thinking about, like, what is the role of the festival? Like, what is it that we do that helps these projects either get press or launch the next phase of where they will go? And, obviously, for some of these projects, it's really difficult for them to go elsewhere. If they're a really big installation build, it's not like there are all these venues that are welcoming projects like the Collider. I do think that's changing, and one of the things I've really seen change, I don't know if you've noticed this, but one of the other jobs I do is I produce Immerse, which is a publication on Medium about immersive media, and I'm writing a piece right now for Immerse about exhibition. And what I've noticed is there has been a real shift from the kind of sky is falling, no one's buying enough headsets at home, for at-home distribution so that the conversations really shifted from that like VR as the Netflix model isn't working to LBEs like location-based experiences and a space like the Phi Center and you know what Iñárritu did with Akane Arena. So I feel like some of the metaphors have shifted from film as a metaphor to museums and libraries and spaces like that as a metaphor for distribution of these pieces. And I actually think that's really great in some ways, it does open up some possibilities. There's still issues around access and numbers and scale, but if you start to think of it more as like a theatre experience and how theatre operates, or going to a gallery to see a single painting that only exists in that gallery, in one place in the world, then actually it doesn't make the art, like art doesn't have to be scalable and this work doesn't have to be released for everyone to see. I think there's a real balance to be had between mainstream access and then other kinds of access. And I think maybe we've all been slightly confused in that conversation. So, the way I'm now seeing it as film festivals and VR festivals and immersive festivals generally, they play one role in this ecosystem that we are building and that ecosystem isn't built yet. And that's why these conversations are a little bit confusing right now. But it is changing. I mean, the conversation has changed hugely in the last two years. Hugely, I think.

[00:08:53.524] Kent Bye: I think it's interesting to look at the VR trade press, like Road to VR, Upload VR, like a lot of their main reporters don't cover Sundance or Tribeca just because the scale at which there's maybe a couple hundred people to see it, like what's the point of talking about a project if no one can see it? And for me, I love to experience the project and then talk to the creator, but I have tons and tons of interviews that I've recorded but haven't released yet because it's like, what's the point of having people talk about this experience that they can't see because it doesn't exist anymore. It's like very ephemeral. I mean, there's a part of the archival process of that, but it feels like part of what I also see happening is things like Marshmallow Laser Feast in London at the Satya Gallery with the We Live in an Ocean of Air, which when I was in London I had a chance to see. And it's in a beautiful gallery space, people are going in VR, there's an installation component so people can come and sit down and watch people doing VR and not even do the experience but still have like an artistic expression to see people in this experience while there's projection mapping and then they come out of it and they see their expressions of what they had just experienced, and that within itself becomes a spectacle, that people in the gallery context then are watching the people going through VR as a piece of art, and then people in VR having a whole other layer. And so, you know, the first week or so, Marshmallow Laserfeast said that, you know, they didn't, like, sell out, but then after that, it basically was sold out, and then they extended it twice. When I was in Paris I went to the Palace de Tokyo where they had a couple of immersive installations and a lot of immersive art that was there. So it feels like there's more and more locations and I expect something like Ayahuasca experience here that's showing to have lots of different places that it's going to just because it's such a compelling experience for the mass public to see. I think there's going to be like a word of mouth and reach new audiences. So finding like specific content that is resonating with specific demographics and then finding those locations that are going to house that and that's probably the next phase.

[00:10:43.281] Ingrid Kopp: And I do think the key point of that that you just said is finding key locations to house it. I think one of the things that I have noticed as you know there have been a lot of arcades springing up that have closed and it doesn't really surprise me because I think that those business models were like a little bit iffy at the beginning, and obviously a lot of those arcades were not housing the kind of work we're talking about, right? They were much more around games, and you'd go there for parties, and a lot of them haven't worked. I mean, some of them have worked, and I think in China it seems like they're working, but I've seen a lot close down, even in South Africa, you know, where you'd think people would be really keen because it's one of the only places you'd be able to get hold of a Rift or an Oculus or a Vive. But what I'm now seeing is people are being really smart about thinking about what those partnerships might look like. So Marshmello Laserfeast, I just spoke to Nell about Ocean of Air and how they really designed for that to work financially and practically. And they put a lot of thought into that. It wasn't like, oh, let's just see what happens. They really planned it out. And they were housed by the Saatchi Gallery, which is an institution. I think the same with the Phi Center in Montreal, which obviously a lot of people point to as an incredible venue for beautiful, immersive experiences. But look at Lumina in Bristol. They're housed in the Watershed, which is an arts venue, which has a legacy of making and showing great work. and it can basically support limina while it sort of finds its feet. That's a really smart model to me. So you don't just like pop up in the middle of nowhere and be like, here we are. You actually partner with an existing arts organization in some way. Same could be for museums or public libraries or whatever it is. That to me seems like something that would make a lot of sense. And I mean, maybe if you're in Iñárritu and you have a really huge piece, you can kind of get around that. You could just do a standalone somewhere. But I think for most artists, actually thinking about what cultural spaces exist right now where you can have your work show. And I think that's really happening. I'm seeing people doing that. I think what Limina are doing in Bristol is super smart. You know, I think what the Phi Center is doing is amazing. So I'm really excited about that. I feel more optimistic now about VR and immersive experiences finding audiences than I did a year or two ago. Way more.

[00:12:51.993] Kent Bye: Interesting. And because you were part of the curation process of this festival, what were some of the themes that you saw emerging in this program this year?

[00:13:00.718] Ingrid Kopp: It's really hard, because some years there's really clear themes, and I could have answered that in a heartbeat. And I see the themes emerging as the work is coming in and as I'm going to festivals and studios and talking to people about what's coming down the pipeline. This year was really hard, not in terms of finding work, but in terms of seeing patterns. I mean, obviously there are some themes. Immersive theater experiences colliding with VR and AR is obviously something that is happening more and more and more. And we have pieces like that here. Collider, Traitor, Wolves on the Walls, The Key. But I think what I'm seeing is, I don't really know how to express this, but there's like a bedding down. People are still testing the edges of what's possible and there's definitely more sophistication in terms of the tools and the technology and things are getting more lightweight, higher def, all of that. But I'm seeing almost like a comfort with just trying things and everything doesn't have to be pushing at the very edges. There's just like a settling down into this new medium that we're all discovering. So for me this whole year, and I don't think this is just Tribeca, I'm kind of seeing it as a It's really hard for me to describe. It's like a bedding down year where AR is coming, but there aren't that many story projects around AR right now. So that's coming. VR is sort of settling into itself and finding a path. And that's kind of the theme that I'm seeing. And I guess, again, just all these industries colliding. That keeps happening. And I love that. One of the things I love most about this immersive space is that it's not just filmmakers. It's theater makers and puppet makers. And audio is becoming a huge thing. Audio, I guess, would be another thing. And people are paying attention to how You really do have to collaborate across mediums now, more than ever, which is something I've always loved. I hate being stuck in one silo. Sometimes I can't even get the words out to describe what I do or what the space is that we're in because so many things are colliding and I love that.

[00:14:59.867] Kent Bye: Yeah, a couple of things that I saw based upon seeing all the 22 experiences here is one is ethical and moral dilemmas and being put into situations where you may have to make a choice where there's an ethical or moral aspect to it. So whether that's in Trader or in the Bonfire or the second civil war, there's all these experiences that are explicitly having a morality issue that you have to be put into like an impossible situation and making a choice where there's no clear answer but yet you're still being asked to make a choice. So having the choices that are being made have like an ethical and moral dimension to them. Also, sort of the surveillance and other issues that are kind of embedded into some of these projects as well, like privacy and surveillance and totalitarianism. There's an element of that. But also, dream and dream logic, I think, was the other big theme that I'm taking away, both from Gymnasia for how the whole experience not only feels like a dream, but it was designed like a dream. so inspired by what it feels like to have a disturbing dream, but bringing in more surrealistic qualities of the experience, but with Sling Tricards the Key, explicitly using dream logic as a storytelling method of using the symbolic metaphors in a way that I think actually works really well within VR to use that symbolism in a way that's explicitly connected to metaphors that you have a deeper story that you're trying to tell and that you may not sort of realize what is emerging until like it hits you once you realize what the metaphors are.

[00:16:27.149] Ingrid Kopp: Yeah, it's so interesting because sometimes when you're in the middle of it you don't see the things as clearly, but everything you just said is absolutely right. And I think the shift is now from that sort of hackneyed empathy machine idea around VR to this idea of using VR as a way to actually make you think through the choices that you are making. You know, when you were talking about the ethics and the ideas around surveillance and totalitarianism, it's not that sort of like, you know, here's a terrible story, you can feel like you are there and you will feel empathy and et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, you know, which I always had huge problems with. I think what's happening now is way more interesting than that. And I'm really loving how people are taking both literal and sort of more dreamlike and more metaphorical experiences to actually really make us question our role in stories and the stories that are here, but also the stories of our lives, the choices that we make and how we are implicated in things. And I think to me, that's way more interesting. I think, I guess that's what I mean about VR sort of bending down. I just feel like The sophistication is in not just the technology, but in just the ways that people are thinking about what VR can do that other mediums cannot do. To you as you experience it, as you're immersed in that world. And I actually find that it's really exciting to me because I was getting a little bit worried that maybe we were just going down the wrong path with all the sort of like, you know, you can be here and feel poverty and experience this and that. And it just made me feel really icky. And now, actually, I think that we're on the right track, where we're really thinking about how you can actually almost take someone out of their comfort zone and out of their day-to-day reality, put them into this world, whether it be a dream-like world, a metaphorical world, or a world where you have to make decisions, and it shifts you a little bit. And it's that kind of storytelling that I think is really exciting and less problematic ethically, too. Definitely less dubious.

[00:18:18.996] Kent Bye: Well, I'd love to do a quick run through of the five StoryScape experiences that are in competition and kind of unpack things that you see are unique or different in terms of pushing forward the storytelling medium. Because there's 22 experiences overall, but five of them are in the StoryScapes competition. So those are the ones that are competing for the StoryScapes award. So maybe you could start with the Collider, your experience of that, and what you think is new or different, and why that, in terms of a story, that you chose it to be within the StoryScapes.

[00:18:49.333] Ingrid Kopp: Absolutely and one thing to say is a lot of people ask me like why certain projects are in storiescapes and others aren't and it's not like you deserve to be in storiescapes because you're the best project and everything else isn't. Like that's absolutely not the criteria we use. We use storiescapes to shine a spotlight on projects that we see as doing particular things. like basically almost as a dialogue on where we're at right now in terms of immersive media. So for me, Storyscapes is really about like kind of almost like a snapshot of a moment in our medium. And I think about it as a way to sort of like highlight up and coming talent, new ways of telling stories, et cetera, et cetera. So it's definitely not like these are the five best projects. And Collider, I've always really loved Anagram's work. I just think the way that they think about using all different kinds of storytelling devices. You know, we had Door into the Dark here four years ago, which there was no headset. It was just this amazing experience, blindfolded and really audio driven. I think what Amy and May are doing is just really thinking about the whole experience, like how you can create an entire experience to really shift people's ways of thinking about how they move through the world. In this case, there's a lot of stuff around power and control and loss of control. And that sounds like an easy thing to do. And I think it's actually incredibly difficult. You know, if you do one misstep, it's not going to work because there's so much trust and so much of the experience that could make you feel like you're out of it and I mean when I went through it I hate not having control and I didn't have control in the experience and it drove me crazy but that's so interesting like to have that experience and I loved what they were doing with one person being in their headset and one person having the controllers I hope I'm not giving too much away here I thought that was really smart you know and it could be gimmicky it could totally be gimmicky but they are just really thoughtful in their practice and it's not gimmicky and I think a lot of people feel really changed by it which is extraordinary and what I love about Amy and May as well is like all their projects have this like quiet intensity they're not shouty projects they just have this like really thoughtful quiet intensity that I think it's kind of profound.

[00:20:54.070] Kent Bye: Yeah, I had a chance to talk to them and had an hour-long discussion unpacking it. And they were not so precious about people knowing about specific things. But that's a separate question around spoilers and how much can you talk about it as we unpack it. And yeah, I think each project has different elements where sometimes the more you know the better, and sometimes that can ruin a reveal or something. And I think the key actually is one of those experiences that try to actually keep that moment of what the piece is even about a little veiled until people had a chance to see it. Then they'll be able to have their own experience of discovering what it is because I had a very powerful experience in that moment of that reveal of what the experience was all about. It was quite moving. And after talking to Celine, just to hear how she was using all this symbolic dream logic that had very clear intentions, it was like kind of being lost in this world of symbols, but yet having an experience that was more emotional or embodied and cultivating those sense of like unconscious embodied experience. And in a moment, and then unpack that and then to say this is why we did that and to connect it to what's happening with the story. So I just had a really profound experience in there and then after talking to her I had even a deeper appreciation of all the inspiration from her own experiences of lucid dreaming and dealing with dream logic and symbols to be able to embed that into the language of VR.

[00:22:16.163] Ingrid Kopp: Did you feel where it was going as you were watching it, or was it a complete surprise?

[00:22:20.326] Kent Bye: I didn't know what it was about, or I had no idea. So I kind of went and called. I kind of prefer to not know much of anything about projects and just see them based upon what they're offering. And so, yeah, I think it was a super powerful experience for me in that way.

[00:22:34.695] Ingrid Kopp: So I obviously didn't know what it was about because I'd actually been involved with the Creators Lab and I'd been following the project. But what was interesting to me is I actually also had this really powerful emotional moment when there is a bit of a reveal. And it really kind of caught me by surprise. because I thought I was, you know, I was kind of ready for it, and I kind of knew where it was going, and I was sort of feeling it all along, and almost second-guessing the piece, and it still got me. That made me so happy because it made me realize that Celine pulled it off. It's a hard thing to do. It's a really hard thing to do, and she did it. So I got really, really tearful because I was just really, I mean, obviously I was very moved by the story, but I was also just like, I was so, I mean, you know, I'm not an artist. I like to think I facilitate a lot of this work. I don't make work. And I'm always amazed when I can see someone do something like that. I just think it's, to me, that's kind of why I do what I do. It just makes me feel like all goosebumps even talking about it. That is such an amazing thing that we all get to experience. That these artists can create experiences like that, which really just get you. And it's not like you must feel this about this. It's just this way of, you know, we're so bombarded every day with terrible, terrible news. And we know that these awful things are happening. And I think most of us are actually. But it's not like we don't know. We know. But you need a moment like that, I think, to actually like almost feel it and be in it for a moment to actually take stock of what's happening. So that for me is amazing. Like it makes me. Yeah, it's I was very, very impressed with what they did and very moved. Yeah.

[00:24:11.084] Kent Bye: You too. So what about Another Dream? What were some of the qualities of that experience that you see are innovating in the realm of storytelling?

[00:24:17.808] Ingrid Kopp: Another Dream, I was so impressed with the team. They've been plugging away at the story for a really long time. They were getting these audio interviews. They were really thinking so much about how they could use animation. And it was the first VR project. So they were doing many, many different things on many different levels at the same time. And for me, there was just this bravery and tenacious determination to tell this story that I thought was really powerful. And then I'd seen some sections from the film where I just thought the animation was wonderful, you know, that they were telling this story and creating this world in just like such a lovely, delightful way. I mean, even though some of it's quite hard and sad, there's just this exuberance in the way that they work together. and they're collaborative and this is something else that I'm very interested in as I'm seeing a lot of um and future dreaming we can come to as well around this I'm seeing really interesting kinds of truly collaborative work emerging I mean obviously all Almost all artistic projects are collaborative, especially when it comes to film and VR, but I'm seeing this really unique way where people are truly working together. And obviously there's often a director or someone who's like the main creator, but I think Another Dream is a really good example of that, where there were many, many people involved in bringing that story to life. And they did it. They pulled it off. It's their first VR project. I think we made them cry a little bit in the lead up to Tribeca, because it's a big thing. Not only do you do your first VR project, and then we're like, you're coming to Tribeca, and we need this installation, and there's all this pressure. But they did it, and they're wonderful. And I think it's both a wonderful piece in its own right, but I think it's also pointing to interesting ways of telling documentary stories in VR.

[00:26:06.294] Kent Bye: So moving on to the next piece of Future Dreaming, I've been a big huge fan of Sutu and a lot of his Tilt Brush works and Mind at War I had a chance to see. And so I had a chance to see the whole documentary that they produced about this project. So we got a little bit more context of working with these four Aboriginal youth from Western Australia. But to see the collaborative process that went behind it gave additional context to seeing it. I mean, I think Seeing what happened is interesting within its own right, but then to see the backstory for how it came about is also a fascinating way of documenting a moment of a culture and the dreams of a culture. But maybe you could talk about your own sense as to what were the interesting aspects of future dreaming.

[00:26:45.751] Ingrid Kopp: So I've actually known of Stu for many, many years and I only met him, I think for the first time about a year ago, but I've been following his work way back, actually when he was doing the comics with the kids. So a lot of the kids who were involved with Future Dreaming were also working with him on comics called, I think they were called Neomad. They were like the love punks. And I think I heard about that, I mean, it was years ago now, maybe eight years ago. And I actually thought when we first had story scapes of bringing them to the festival with the comics, and I just couldn't quite figure out how to make that work. in the story scapes space but I really wanted to do it and so when Sutu told me about Future Dreaming I was like okay now is my time and he's gonna hate me for saying this but he kept sending me builds where like the voiceover was out of sync and stuff and I was like You know, because I could see that there was something amazing there, but it was like very, very rough and very unfinished. But that was one of the ones where I just knew, I knew that they were going to make something special. Like the way that they work together, the way that they've known each other for years and years and years and work truly collaboratively, the way that they're sort of bringing like these really interesting aspects of indigenous life in Australia to life in a way that doesn't feel, it just feels really fresh and fun and exciting. But it's also dealing with some, fairly hard issues, I think is amazing. I have a real soft spot for that project because I just think, again, that to me is an example of true collaboration. Like, you don't just say, oh yeah, we collaborated. They have worked together for years and years and years. Soot has known them since they were little kids. you know, that is real collaboration. It's not like one project and see you later. It's actually like a lifelong project, really, I think, for all of them. Yeah, and the fact that they could all come here is just amazing. I think it's been quite hard to keep them in the space because they just keep wanting to go to the Empire State Building. Every time I see them, they're like, we want to go here, there, which is totally understandable. I mean, I would do the same if I was 16 and in New York for the very first time. And I don't think any of them have ever left Australia before. So that was really cool. And I love that project.

[00:28:40.208] Kent Bye: Yeah, I had a chance to talk to Post 2.2 and all the participants of that. So the final project is Traitor, which I had a very interesting experience of like this live action role play where I knew there was immersive theater components, but I didn't know how much I was going to be expected to participate and engage. And so just these moments where I'm being asked to lie to the participant and not being quite prepared to know what to say. So feeling off guard in that way. So in that sense, it was like one of the most intense embodied dramatic moments that I had of all of Storyscapes is kind of be in that situation and to be put under pressure and to see what I do. And so because this is an immersive theater piece where you have to experience it, maybe you could talk about if you had a chance to see it and then what was it about that experience that you thought was compelling from a story perspective?

[00:29:33.007] Ingrid Kopp: I think for that one, that really touched on this idea of different disciplines colliding and I think I definitely have a bias towards documentary generally. I think that is my background and it's kind of the stuff I'm really drawn to and I try to sort of shake myself out of that a little bit because I do think that Fiction is often a space where you can really experience truth in a really different way. And I think sometimes I limit myself a little bit by my focus on nonfiction. So Traitor I thought was really interesting because it does exactly that, right? It makes you feel really uncomfortable and it makes you realize things about what you are and are not comfortable doing, but it's really fun. And I think we all need to see how these projects can be really fun and really intense as well. You're just in it and trying to get things right. And there's a bit of a game element. And I think I would actually like to include more work like that. Because we're really trying to focus on storytelling projects, I think sometimes I limit myself a little bit as a curator. And I'm trying not to do that so much. And Traitor for me was such a great example of exactly when you don't do that, how well it can work. And I also love that it was coming out of the theater company that I don't think have ever done VR before. That the fact that they were thinking, okay, well, we know how to do theater, we know how to do immersive theater, we've got that. What does it look like when we bring VR into that? That's super interesting to me. I'd love to see more of that kind of fluidity. And I think it's happening. But I think it's really amazing because obviously, Theatre people have a really incredible way of thinking about the space that I think maybe film people don't necessarily bring to the space. So when you see it all kind of come together, I think that is really interesting and it's just fun. And we need more fun stuff too, because I have a bias towards not fun. That's just my personality.

[00:31:18.923] Kent Bye: A lot of stuff going on in the world right now.

[00:31:20.384] Ingrid Kopp: Right. And that's the thing, right? And it's really hard. Especially at this moment, I do find it very, very difficult to get myself out of just the fact that the world is burning. It's really, really hard. But I think there are projects like Traitor that are super fun, but they also really do make you think. They make you think about yourself and the decisions you make. So that's great. I think there are ways for us to have intentional fun. And I mean, you can also just have pure fun. But I do think it's really important right now, given the fact that the world is burning, that we also do allow joy into our lives. Because otherwise, what are we doing here?

[00:31:58.655] Kent Bye: Great. And so for you, what are some of the either open problems you're trying to solve with your work and all that you do in this space, or some of the open questions that you're trying to answer?

[00:32:09.350] Ingrid Kopp: I mean, access is a huge thing for me. You know, it's a huge thing for me in my work with Tribeca. It's a huge thing for me in my work in Africa with Electric South. Just constantly thinking about access across the board. So, who's getting funded to make work? You know, who are those artists? Where are they? What stories are they telling? Which communities are they part of? And then, again, on the distribution and exhibition side, same thing. Like, who gets to see the work, right? Obviously, you know, we are in a bit of a bubble sometimes and I know that and I don't think it's a bad thing but I think we do need to start now thinking about if it's not at home and of course some of it is in home right I mean lots of people do have headsets but the more I'm doing this work right now the more I'm thinking is right now we need to be thinking about like what are spaces that are accessible like what happens in libraries who goes to libraries lots of people you know it's they are democratic spaces museums to a certain extent although I think sometimes the people who go to museums are slightly self-selecting So I think it's all the way through the pipeline is really paying attention to what we're choosing to shine a light on. And I try to do that as a curator, but I have to say sometimes it's really hard because a lot of the work I want to see is just not being funded and supported. So here I'm talking about work from the global South, I'm talking about work from indigenous communities, et cetera, et cetera. And I do think it's changing, but I think that part of the reason I started Electric South is as a curator, I wasn't finding the work and then I was like, well, The only way to change that is to start funding and supporting that work. You're not suddenly just going to start getting work from Africa or other parts of the world without that support and someone has to do it. So access for me is a huge thing. I am also obviously constantly thinking about exhibition and what is the role of a film festival and where do these projects go next. Where is VR going? What's going to happen with AR and how are VR and AR and immersive theatre and everything going to continue to evolve? But I kind of think that unless we think about the access issues, a lot of those things are just going to remain small. Like they feel big to us because we're in it. But they're not big until they're big. And I don't mean that everything has to scale again. It's not that. It's just that if this conversation needs to be a world conversation, a global conversation, then you've got to get everyone in it. And part of the other reason it's important to me is I was really inspired by Kamal Sinclair's Making a New Reality research, and I'm seeing this in my work in Africa. If you have different people in the space, if you're making sure that it's truly global and that you're thinking about real inclusivity, not just saying it, The work changes because people use the headsets and the gear and tell stories in different ways and actually pushes the whole field forward so that we're limiting ourselves by keeping it small. So I'm not talking about scale because I hate the idea that everything has to scale to be worth something. It's not that. It's that unless we are widening the circle of who we include when we talk about the community, then the work is never going to be as good as it could be for all of us. Like, we're limiting ourselves. And so that's, I think that's the main thing that I think about all the time to the point where it annoys me. Like, I find myself boring, but I can't shake it because I know that we're kind of holding ourselves back by not paying enough attention to that, you know? Because it will make all of our work better, I think. Like, I think that's how work gets better. It's by making the circle wider. And I don't know how to, I mean, I have inklings of how to do it, but it's hard. It's, I'm tired.

[00:35:37.496] Kent Bye: No, I understand that. That's part of the reason why I focus so much on what's happening in the immersive storytelling space, in trying to include as many different voices as I can on the podcast, to try to help expand that. Because I find that myself. The more people I talk to, the more insights they have about their own perspective on the medium. And finally, what do you think the ultimate potential of immersive storytelling is? And what am I able to enable?

[00:36:07.075] Ingrid Kopp: I find it increasingly hard to look into the future. I think the potential is, you can see it now, it shifts the way that you experience stories and it shifts you in the process in a way that I... still find really exciting. Like I've never been jaded about it ever. I think that 360 is getting incredibly good and it really saddens me that people have sort of given up on 360 at the point where you've got projects like Traveling While Black, you know, which is extraordinary. I think just absolutely beautiful and moving and you know there's so much good work being made in 360. So for me, it's really important to be open to the full spectrum of possibilities. And I feel the same about audio, like I'm obsessed with what Jess Brillhardt's doing with Traverse. I know Casper's always been really interested in audio and audio walks and those kinds of experiences. So for me, it's like not limiting yourself to okay, it has to be VR and it has to be room scale VR, you know, and you must do this, this and this in order to be progressive or seen as, you know, at the forefront. You don't need all of those things. You need the spectrum. And, you know, not everyone needs to do everything. Wait, now I'm really not answering your question. So I think the possibilities And the potential is now. This is the potential. You don't need any more than what we're seeing right now. It's amazing. And of course it's going to evolve and things are going to change, but I think it's the same reason why I sometimes get a little bit tetchy when people always try to have a use case for things. What is the use case for art? you know, this work changes you or can change you, the good work can. And not everything has to be social issue and not everything has to be about the fact that the world is burning, even though it is. You know, there is a huge space for joy and wonder and awe and all of those things. And I think you see it right now. I mean, I think you see it in this space. I've seen it at other festivals. It's like it's here. And so I guess In some ways, I mean, there's a lot of things to figure out, don't get me wrong. We've got to figure out distribution and exhibition. We've got to figure out access. We've got to get more people into the space and broaden our community. But in terms of the potential, I think you can see it in all of these projects. I hope. I hope you can.

[00:38:22.099] Kent Bye: Awesome. Great. Is there anything else that's left unsaid that you'd like to say to the immersive community?

[00:38:27.520] Ingrid Kopp: I guess the one thing I would say is even though I keep talking about the fact that we need to broaden this community and widen it and think about when we say we, who we mean, I was actually just talking to my friend last night who used to work with me on Tribeca Immersive and he was saying, you work with all your friends. And I thought that's actually really true. I really love this community and I think that we are doing We are both doing amazing work, sometimes not such amazing work, but we're working on it together. But we're very kind to each other. I don't really know how to say this without sounding a little bit saccharine, but it is amazing for me to be able to work in this space with people I really, really like and love. Some of whom I've known for a very, very long time, like way before VR. And we're all trying to figure it out together. And I have to say, it's not always easy. The business models are really shaky often. I don't get paid for a lot of the things I do. And yet, we're sort of figuring it out. And I've really been thinking about it this Tribeca, just seeing all these folks that I know, both creators and industry and audiences, just good people that I really like to work with. So I think as long as we can keep that going, but continuing to think about who we are, then it will be fine. We'll be fine. We'll be fine. We'll solve all the other problems.

[00:39:45.026] Kent Bye: Awesome. Great. Well, thank you so much for joining me today on the podcast. So thank you.

[00:39:48.511] Ingrid Kopp: Thanks a lot. It's great to be here.

[00:39:50.635] Kent Bye: So thanks again for listening to this interview. This is usually where I would share some additional takeaways, but I've started to do a little bit more real-time takeaways at the end of my conversations with folks to give some of my impressions. And I think as time goes on, I'm going to figure out how to use XR technologies within the context of the VoicesOfVR.com website itself to do these type of spatial visualizations. So I'm putting a lot of my energy on thinking about that a lot more right now. But if you do want a little bit more in-depth conversations around some of these different ideas around immersive storytelling, I highly recommend a talk that I gave on YouTube. You can search for StoryCon Keynote, Kent Bye. I did a whole primer on presence, immersive storytelling, and experiential design. So, that's all that I have for today, and I just want to thank you all for listening to the Voices of VR podcast. And if you enjoy the podcast, then please do spread the word, tell your friends, and consider becoming a member of the Patreon. This is a listener-supported podcast, and so I do rely upon donations from people like yourself in order to continue to bring you this coverage. So you could become a member and donate today at patreon.com slash voicesofvr. Thanks for listening.

More from this show