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#1576: How Singer Studios Uses VR to Kickstart New Film, TV, Podcast, & Graphic Novel IP with “Trailblazer with Daisy Ridley” + Cannes Immersive 2025 Coverage

July 18, 2025by kentbye

I spoke with Eloise Singer & Lesley Paterson about Trailblazer with Daisy Ridley as a part of my remote coverage of Cannes Immersive 2025. See more context in the rough transcript below.

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Rough Transcript

[00:00:05.458] Kent Bye: The Voices of VR Podcast. Hello, my name is Kent Bye, and welcome to the Voices of VR Podcast. It's a podcast that looks at the structures and forms of immersive storytelling and the future of spatial computing. You can support the podcast at patreon.com slash voicesofvr. So I did not have a chance to attend Con Immersive 2025, but I had already seen around nine out of the 16 projects that were going to be there, and I I was able to cover two additional projects remotely and also had recorded this interview with one of the other projects that I originally saw at Venice Immersive 2022 called, at that time it was called Mrs. Benz, and now it's called Trailblazer with Daisy Riddler. And so this is a piece that's actually free and available on MetaQuest. It was released on May 16th, 2025. That was actually during the con, Immersive. And it was a part of the out-of-competition selection there. In the show notes of this episode, I'll put a link to coverage that I did previously of a lot of the projects that were shown at ConXR. The winner from Dust I had a chance to see as a kind of sneak preview after IFA Doc Lab of 2024. There was Floating with Spirits, which I saw at Venice Immersive 2023. If a Doc Lab 2023, I saw Beyond the Vivid Unknown. This is My Heart, I saw at Venice Immersive 2024. And then In the Current of Being, I saw at South by Southwest 2025. And then did an interview with Otto's Planet at South by Southwest 2025, but saw it at Venice in 2024. So I'll put some links to these other interviews. I'll also be covering the Lacuna as well as The Dollhouse, which I'll be featuring in the next couple of episodes. But if you want to see kind of my coverage, then you can check out those conversations. So this interview with Eloise Singer and Leslie Patterson is actually done right before South by Southwest. They were originally going to be releasing it right around like March 7th, but then they were in negotiations to get it into con and ended up getting into con and then they delayed the release for a couple of months. And so what's interesting about this conversation with Eloise Singer and Leslie Patterson is that Singer Studios has been working on developing these different IPs. So they did the Pirate Queen and then created a whole virtual reality experience that came out. And then also this Mrs. Benz, which is now Trailblazer, which is looking at Mrs. Benz, who basically went on the first road trip as the wife of Mercedes Benz founder. So basically, she was quite a badass woman who basically Stole a car, went on the first road trip as kind of more of a publicity stunt, but it's more to show her story through a lot of environmental storytelling. So you end up piecing things together and hear all the dialogue and the narrative through the voiceover. But really exquisite environmental design and puzzles and using this interactive, immersive way to put you into the story. And what they're doing is that they're developing this story into like a graphic novel, into a podcast series, into a film. And so the Pirate Queen also has all these other things of like a podcast series and a TV series that they're in the process of developing. And so it's really this interesting way of using virtual reality to develop a new IP and prove out that there's an audience for these different types of stories, give people a little bit of an immersive experience to prove their chops. at the frontiers of immersive storytelling and puzzles and puzzle games. And yeah, it seems like a really interesting diversified approach for how they're creating all these different projects across these different media and telling the stories in different ways based upon whatever medium that they're using. So we kind of explore the affordances of VR and how they're able to tell different types of stories across these different media from graphic novels, podcasts, films, as well as virtual reality experiences and immersive storytelling. So we're covering all that and more on today's episode of the Voices of VR podcast. So this interview with Eloise and Leslie happened on Monday, March 3rd, 2025. So with that, let's go ahead and dive right in.

[00:03:47.637] Lesley Paterson: My name is Leslie Patterson and I am an Oscar nominee and a producer of All Quiet on the Western Front. I have my own production company called Brave Art Entertainment and I write and produce film, TV, lots of different types of content and very, very excited to be partnering with Singer Studios. And I think this is the first of many.

[00:04:16.983] Eloise Singer: I think so too. I think so too. Hi, I'm Eloise Singer. I am a producer and director and I have made a couple of VR experiences. I made The Pirate Queen with Lucy Liu and we are releasing Trailblazer with Daisy Ridley. And I have spoken to Kent a couple of times. I love this podcast. It's always a blast.

[00:04:41.551] Kent Bye: So maybe each of you could give a bit more context as to your background and your journey into this immersive space.

[00:04:48.356] Eloise Singer: Yeah. So I used to work at Pinewood Studios and I worked on a bunch of different productions from sort of Ready Player One to Murder on the Orient Express to The Crown. I actually met Daisy on Murder on the Orient Express. So it's kind of come full circle of we made that film. I think nine years ago now and so it's a really weird full circle to now be making trailblazer with her but I started out at Pinewood and then I set up my own company Singer Studios in 2017 which is eight years ago this month actually so we're celebrating our eighth birthday and And then I exec produced a bunch of films from Rare Beasts with Billy Piper that premiered at Venice and also The Last Rifleman with Pierce Brosnan. And then I started getting into the immersive space because we were developing Pirate Queen as a film. And when the pandemic struck, we couldn't keep developing the film version of Pirate Queen because we didn't know what was going to happen. And at the time, Creative England were giving out grants to create VR content. And so I had met a chap called Dave Ranyard, who's also one of the producers on Trailblazer as well. And Dave was the head of PlayStation Studios in London. And I said, listen, should we turn Pirate Queen into an immersive story? It would be amazing. I mean, imagine like going through ships and climbing rigging and... discovering this world and he was like yeah let's do it so we created this prototype that premiered at Raindance and then went on to be funded by Meta and then premiered at Tribeca and then we released it and at the same time I was developing the story of Bertha Benz And very similarly, I thought, gosh, what a way to tell the story than to actually physically experience it, to go on the journey that she went through and to step into her shoes and be able to drive the world's first car, which is something you can't do in real life. So we started developing the VR experience and we premiered it at Venice and we premiered it at South by Southwest. And then Leslie and I met and I told her about the project. And there's a really cool story about how we met, by the way. It's like a proper Hollywood story about how we met. I think it's like a bizarre serendipity. And Les was like, this is amazing. I have to jump on board with this. So we teamed up and now we're developing the full world of Trailblazer, which is really exciting.

[00:07:35.916] Lesley Paterson: Yeah. And I mean, this is my first experience into VR and immersive stuff. I mean, obviously, I mean, my background, I was a professional triathlete and I'm a five time world champion in triathlon. So I'm used to experience in general and being out there and feeling it. Then as well, of course, I'm a storyteller. So, you know, a writer, a producer. So you kind of match those two drivers in my life. And VR is that sort of perfect combination. And I think Eloise is just so talented in so many different ways. And what she's doing within her company is incredible. And then this story, being a sort of trailblazer myself and very much into female empowerment stories, I just could immediately see how to make this into an incredible film. So that's sort of how it all came together. And we're currently beating out the story, developing it, and just having a whale of a time, really.

[00:08:40.879] Kent Bye: Well, before we start to move on and dive in, I kind of have to hear the story of how you two met.

[00:08:46.004] Eloise Singer: Okay. It's, it's, it is amazing. It's so good. And honestly, I think it's like, Les's life is going to be a movie at some point and it's just a funny part, but so I, not to crash on your coattails, Kent, but I have a podcast. which is called Women Behind the Scenes. And I interview different women who are nominated for Academy Awards or BAFTAs, et cetera, and kind of learn about the story of how they've made their film. And one of the interviews I did was with this woman called Leslie Patterson. who was nominated at the time for All Quiet on the Western Front and was also nominated for many, many BAFTAs of which she won and rightly so. And we just sat down and had like an amazing podcast interview, like really incredible interview and just got on really, really well. And at the end of it, Leslie just said, you know, I'm in L.A. If ever you're in L.A., just let me know. It'd be great. We should do something together. And at the time, I thought that Leslie was just being very polite. And so I was very polite and I was like, sure, yeah, that sounds lovely. And then we kind of went our separate ways. Leslie then proceeded to sort of rule the world and All Quiet on the Western Front just won loads of Oscars. And I was there sitting at home cheering her on, very, very proud. And then, cut to, I was flying to LA for the Emmys because Pirate Queen had just been nominated for an Emmy and we were going to the ceremony and there was this blonde woman sitting in front of me on the plane and she stood up and I looked at her and I was like, No, I don't. Is it? I looked at her and I was like, it definitely is. It definitely is. And so I just tapped her on the shoulder. I was like, Leslie. And she turned around and she was like, this was about a year later, by the way. She turned around and she was like, I remember you. You interviewed me for a podcast. And I was like, Yes. And she was like, we should connect. We have to find something to do together. And I was like, okay, cool. I'll message you on Instagram. She was like, I will be ready for this message on Instagram. So I texted her and we met up and had dinner and I told her about Trailblaze and she was like, let's do it. I was like, okay. And now here we are. It's such a good story. It's one of my faves.

[00:11:08.725] Kent Bye: Leslie, do you have anything you wanted to add from your perspective? Yeah.

[00:11:12.094] Lesley Paterson: You know, it's funny when you just align with an energy. And I'm very much about intuition. And I think what Eloise has done and how she just kind of, I don't know, she just gets shit done. And that's my MO. And so to align with other, especially women that are like that, is an absolute privilege. And I really... you know, I'm obviously Scottish and like when I say something, I mean it. It's not, it's not bullshit. And I think that in this industry, of course, people say a lot of stuff and don't follow through. So, you know, it's just kind of nice when you've got two women that actually do follow through. It's like, yeah, we're going to rule the world. All right, done.

[00:11:54.718] Eloise Singer: I genuinely think we're going to take over the world as well. Like I'm actually very excited for us. I'm very excited for us. It's like these two energies are aligning and yeah, two powerhouses have just come together and I'm excited.

[00:12:11.018] Lesley Paterson: And I think like, I really do think there's something to be said for helping each other in general. So again, in this industry, often it's very, there's a lot of protectionism and there's a lot of like, well, I'm doing my thing and I don't want competition to know about it. I don't want to help anyone else. And I'm like the absolute polar opposite. It's like, all boats rise, you know, it's like, so in my opinion, it's like, why would I not want to align with someone like Eloise and vice versa? Like it just only makes sense. So, and that's the beauty of collaboration and all forms of storytelling, whether it's VR or featured or series or, you know, books or anything like that. It's, You know, how can we create a vision and a path and use all of our skills and strengths and collaborate with all the best in the business to do as much as we can? It just makes sense. And then when you're telling a story that is so inspiring and, you know, really when it comes to either feature films or television series or anything like that, we're always trying to figure out why is this important to tell and why now? And I think for me, the story of... Bertha Benz is really an untold story. And I think the reason that that's important is when we look at movements in life, people set the foundation for those movements and it doesn't happen all at once. So as a woman, we're always kind of told the freedoms that we have now are built upon the shoulders of others that sacrifice as a consequence. And I think that her story is kind of like that. You know, she wasn't commended at the time, but now looking back, how she inspired other women to achieve what they achieved and also where we're at now as a consequence. So there's just so many aspects of that I find fascinating and, you know, just great to dig into in a narrative way.

[00:14:06.715] Kent Bye: Great. And so, yeah, I had a chance to first see this project when it was called Mrs. Benz back at Venice Immersive 2022, where I met you for the first time, Eloise, and we did an interview about this project and also just how you are also looking at films and podcasts and VR as telling stories across all these different medium, according to those affordances for each of those media projects. And so I'd love to kick it back to you to give me a bit of an update as to what happened with Mrs. Ben since Venice of 2022. And at that time, I think it was a PC VR build. Now you're getting into Quest and you're about to have the launch of it, which looks like pretty much the same structure of a story, at least, that you were telling back a couple of years ago that I previous covered. But let me throw it back to you to get a little bit of an update as to what has happened with this project since Venice of 2022.

[00:14:55.549] Eloise Singer: Yeah, for sure. I mean, so we obviously we premiered as a PC VR at Venice 2022. And then since then we made Pirate Queen. And so our whole team was working quite intensely on that. And then now we are developing Benz into Trailblazer, which is going to be more of a franchise aspect. So we're porting it to Quest 2 and Quest 3 as a start of 10 and releasing that. And obviously the massive and really exciting news is that daisy ridley is starring as the voice of bertha benz so that's a really cool and fun development and daisy's exec producing the project alongside me and leslie as well and the reason that we're sort of calling it trailblazers because it's not just going to be the vr project it's we're creating this sort of world so leslie's on board and we're now developing it into a film together which is really exciting we're developing it into a graphic novel so i think the coolest thing about vr is and what we're seeing with it is that it can launch ip in a way that's really unique and really exciting and With, for example, with Pirate Queen, we announced Pirate Queen and now we're developing it into the graphic novel and we're developing it into a TV series as well. And I think that's what's so fascinating about VR is it's this new medium that can be used to demonstrate that there's an audience for these stories, to be a proof of concept, to show and In a world where people are becoming, and commissioners and studios are becoming a lot more conservative with the decisions that they make and the choices, we need to demonstrate that there are audiences there for them to greenlight projects. And that's exactly what we can be doing with VR. As well as creating amazing experiences that are very emotionally resonant, we can also demonstrate that there's scope to then build these into bigger franchises. Hmm.

[00:17:00.512] Kent Bye: And Leslie, love to hear some of your reflections on, you know, this broader ecosystem and telling these stories across these different media.

[00:17:08.077] Lesley Paterson: I think everyone has a different way in to getting content, to absorbing it. And certainly as a producer, you know, anybody that wants to come on board wants to know that it has traction in a myriad of different ways. There's different marketing tools. There's different verticals that can be really dug into. So, yeah, From a business perspective, it just makes sense. It's also really fun and it's challenging as a storyteller to understand how to best put across the story in different platforms. So for me, I've learned so much from Eloise in that regard, like how she's coming in at the industry in a different way. which is so clever because especially as you're, you know, if you are an up and coming producer, how do you get a hold of really top IP? It's incredibly challenging. They have whole departments that studios and production companies are doing that with big paychecks. So, you know, this is a way to kind of generate IP yourself as well. So it's just clever.

[00:18:13.319] Kent Bye: Well, because there is this multiple medium dimension to all these stories that you're telling, I'm curious specifically on Trailblazer because it's something that premiered at the film festival. It's not like a full feature length. I'd say it's more like a short in terms of its length and its scope. And I'm curious how you start to both price it and market it in terms of like if it is to serve this larger function of just getting the word out? Or if there is like a monetization strategy, given all of the current ecosystem of what's happening with the XR and immersive stories and the app ecosystem. So let me hear some initial thoughts of, is this gonna be a free app? How did you price it? And how are you starting to negotiate all these different trade-offs for how do you start to approach this project and in the larger context for the process of building up this IP?

[00:19:04.451] Eloise Singer: Yeah, I mean, really good questions. Definitely the price point of this is going to be very low because it's a short experience. It's a 20-minute story that we're releasing. I think at the moment where the climate sits, in my opinion, is that for Quest, obviously a lot of things are moving to... free to play or free to access and there's meta horizons for example that is sort of becoming the focus of meta at the moment and they're seeing that younger audiences are engaging with vr content and so for something like this we're obviously we're releasing it on quest but we're also looking at sort of more of an lb approach to it and speaking to museums because it's such a fascinating piece of history and it's a piece of history that very few people really know about. I mean, if you ask anyone who created the world's first car, who drove the world's first car, I doubt people would be able to answer and say Bertha Benz. So I think that looking at where the industry is at the moment, especially for VR, going for an approach of focusing on sort of an LBE museum based release, as well as launching on Quest at a much lower price point, feels like the best fit for this project.

[00:20:26.849] Lesley Paterson: And I would have said it allows you to investigate some aspects of the story such that you can use it as a springboard to engage people to say, am I interested in this? Yes, I am. It's such a cool premise. and concept. Now let's build on that in a deeper sense. And that's what I love to do. I'm kind of known for adaptation of true story or text and or VR. So the fact that this is kind of all of that is my sweet spot. And I think what we'll find is that as we do develop out the feature film, there could be other aspects that could be built upon as well, whether that's in VR or graphic novel, you know, we can build out based upon how we are developing the story. So that's kind of cool. So I think it's a symbiotic relationship. I don't think it's finite.

[00:21:17.799] Eloise Singer: Completely. I totally agree. And also, I think what's so interesting is that there are different audiences, just like not only just with going from VR to film, but in VR as well, you know, you have audiences who want to go and experience things in museums or installations or exhibitions. And there are people who also want, own a quest to experience it differently. So I think what's really exciting about this is that we can, we can share the story in different formats to cater to different audiences which just allows her story to get out more widely which is ultimately the goal for both me and les is just to tell the story and to reach as many people as possible because it's something that we're just so we're both so enthusiastic about

[00:22:01.863] Lesley Paterson: And it's also a bit of an MVP in terms of how to actually create packages like this for other stories. And that's what Eloise is doing, which is cool. So we're kind of testing out all the different types of content that you can have, the effectiveness of them, the engagement of them. What does that mean? I mean, for example, obviously, this is the origin story of Mercedes-Benz, right? So brand partnerships and things like that. So there's so many different offerings, I think, that can be investigated. Yeah.

[00:22:31.568] Kent Bye: I completely agree. Yeah, in terms of the audiences, I think that there's a pretty distinct difference between, let's say, like the hardcore gamer audience of some of the quest players versus people that may be interested in more of the storytelling bits and not want to get caught on some of the puzzles that they may not be able to figure out. And so I know with both Pirate Queen and also I've noticed within the, at least the video playthrough version that you sent me for Trailblazer since I haven't seen it since Venice of 2022 and It weakened a lot of my memories of that, but you've been adding a little bit more of like these tool tips or these hints systems. And I'm wondering if you've thought around like different scaling of like, if you have the option to turn those on or off, or, you know, just for people who are looking for a way to really be challenged and to like fail or to really have to like, look around. Versus people who just want to have the story told in the most optimized way without having to get caught on a puzzle that they can't figure out. So I'd love to hear how you start to navigate those two different demographics and audiences and how you did it with Pyrogreen and if there's different approaches that you're doing here with Trailblazer.

[00:23:44.147] Eloise Singer: Yeah, definitely. With Pirate Queen, we had two different modes, effectively. We had like a story seeker mode, which gave you both timed hints and like a glint system. And then we had a hard, kind of a hard... escape room type mode which delayed the glints and the hint system was based on sort of ringing a bell so you had to trigger the hint system with this the initial version that we're releasing is the story seeker mode and as dlc will look into doing a more challenging mode For this, it's definitely designed to be a VR story. We want people to get to the end of it and it's an experience that feels like the narrative is so important and to be able to get to the end and to actually witness what happens and it's a very emotional story because you go on this journey and then you feel at the end what Bertha felt, which is that her story didn't come to light in the way that it should have. So it's very much designed specifically around that. So it's a bit of a different experience to Pirate Queen, which was a lot more sort of game focused. This is a lot more narrative focused. And I guess that leans into what Les and I are building Trailblazer out to be, which is, you know, it is all about the story and it's about her story and the future will extend even more than that. There are so many aspects, which is so fascinating that I think Les can dive into a bit more. I mean, just the journey herself, you know, she at one point ripped off her garter and wrapped it around the engine of the car to bring it back to life. And she took out her hairpin and used it to clean the fuel pipes so that the car would function again. I mean, she was so unbelievably resourceful And I think that that's so inspiring. And those are the elements that we were excited for people to kind of learn more about.

[00:25:43.772] Lesley Paterson: And I think that ultimately she's the reason why the car came to be. So how do we lean into that? And what does that mean? And she wasn't commended for that as well. And how do we lean into that? So I think there's many story points we're investigating at the moment in terms of she was somebody that couldn't get into university. Women weren't allowed to study. So that's a big win for her that kind of drives this impetus to have an impact She's also married to somebody that's a perfectionist and probably scared of failure. And yet she's somebody that failure is almost like not an option. And if you do fail, that means you've been able to have a shot, which is something. So like, again, all of these things are thematic emblems that we want to investigate. And then as I spoke about earlier, I think the journey itself that she took was incredible. And she took her two sons with her. And what was the influence like on her sons? There was a lot of publicity around what she did. But there was also a lot of turmoil on that journey. You know, people calling her a witch, you know, the church coming down on her. It was actually illegal at the time to drive a car. She was not allowed to be a woman on her own. So there's amazing obstacles and tension and escalations that we want to lean into within that journey. And We really see the culmination of this is, in many ways, she achieved all of this. What she discovered along the way with her ingenuity was then put into the car that became a success. And yet she wasn't allowed to have any ownership in that. So what can we say by that? Yeah, so we're kind of at that point where we're putting together those pieces in the architecture that feels good and right and interesting and says something powerful.

[00:27:39.295] Kent Bye: Yeah, and as you're talking around this story, what I'm really struck by is like the different mediums that you're telling this story and how you're able to tell different parts of that story in different mediums. I feel like the style that you have with VR is a lot of environmental storytelling. You're building out the sets, you're building out the larger context that people can really feel immersed and transported into another place in time. But we don't see a lot of characters. Everything is like off-screen. There's voiceovers. And so it's difficult to have the fidelity matched with how detailed you have of these sets. You know, the avatars at this point can't match that fidelity. And so plus all the other performance considerations. And so you've had to do a lot of off-screen or voiceover or ways that you're from a first-person perspective, but... not a lot of characters engaging with each other. So you're in a lot of ways embedding the characters within the environments and telling the story of these people and who they are by looking at the places in which they reside and are working. So I'd love to hear some of your reflections on the way that as you're starting with VR and telling these stories, how that type of world building has fed into other ways that you're telling the story in the context of either film or podcast or what you see each of the unique affordances of how you're telling the story across different media.

[00:28:57.386] Eloise Singer: Yeah, definitely. I mean, it's really interesting. VR, there are still so many limitations. In some way, VR is such a beautiful medium because you're given a blank space and you can create whatever you want. Like that's the magic of VR. Whereas at the same time, because of the tech hardware, everyone has these incredible visions in their head and the reality is that you can't really get there yet. yet but that's I think what's so exciting about this medium and why I think that everyone in it at the moment are just pioneers because we're just trying to work it out but I think yeah in a way the best thing about VR is in some senses it does mean that there are limitations and with limitations you have to think more creatively about how you're telling a story so for example we design the experience so that you're hearing Bertha's voice everything is sort of her voice coming through and you're hearing the narrative through her thoughts and that actually makes it a lot more personal because you feel like you're going on this journey as her and Daisy's delivery of Bertha's character is so beautiful because it's all very insular in a way like she's really delivering this as if she was talking to herself and going on this journey and so as a result you feel like you're going on this journey as this character and her performance is stunning so i think that's what's so special about vr is that it's very much a personal experience. Everyone has a different experience in VR as well. Like I could do something completely different to what you could do. And that's what makes it really, really special. And you have that agency. And so by telling a story in VR, you give the player, the user, the agency to go on this journey. And in a way that differs. And that's what's so beautiful about then transcending into different mediums is because for example with a graphic novel it's purely visual you have very very very little text and so everything has to be depicted very visually and so you're telling the story very visually in a very different way and then when you transform it into a film or a show then again it's you know your characters on screen have the agency but the player doesn't so you're able to tell a lot more of an expansive story and to show the dynamics between different characters and the hurdles and engage on that journey in a different way because you're able to see the world in a much larger sense I would say like it's a bigger world that you're actually experiencing, whereas in VR, because of the limitations, because you can't have super beautiful, high fidelity environments and those are characters at the same time just yet, it means that you have to be a lot more creative about how you're telling these stories. But ultimately, I think that's what's so cool about what the future is, is that we're able to tell stories in different formats using the same characters, but in different ways and taking different skill sets and able to do that. If you think, you know, Les is one of the best, literally one of the best producers in the world. And so the collaboration between an incredible story and Les being a phenomenal producer and what we're able to achieve in different formats is I don't know I think that we're creating a path that's really exciting and really new and like it's been rarely done and I think that there's a lot of mileage in it and it feels like the direction of where entertainment seems to be moving

[00:32:35.971] Kent Bye: And Leslie, as you start to think about telling these stories across different media, I'd love to hear any of your reflections of either the different affordances and what is doing things in VR first start to enable in terms of helping to get people to understand the time and place or it impacting how the other stories are being told in other media.

[00:32:55.812] Lesley Paterson: I think it's about emotionally connecting with a story because when you're in VR, of course, it's very visceral. And so it allows the audience to connect in that way and to understand what are the good points about that story that people really love. So it's both a bit of kind of preemptive marketing, but also investigative as well. So that makes it help. I think one helps the other and how much it helps is something that we're both learning. step by step so i think you know ultimately in my perspective as i've mentioned previously is like there's so many parts of this story that we could dig into obviously the vr experience at the moment is quite contained but ultimately you could take out certain moments and really build it out and have many different experiences along the way so it's such a huge learning curve for me just because i've not been in that world it's been incredibly incredibly helpful

[00:33:54.704] Kent Bye: Yeah. In terms of the pitching process in Hollywood, I know that there's ways of translating stories from like the different pitch and treatments and script and then seeing it. I think film has over a hundred years of doing that. So there's a way that you can have those abstractions. Whereas with VR, I feel like you really have to like experience it and see the interactivity. And it's much more similar to say like game design where there's a lot more iteration. It's more difficult to describe something and for people to really fully understand it until they actually have a chance to play it themselves to fully understand that interactivity. And so as you're kind of mashing these two worlds together of like traditions from the game industry, but still applying that type of world building and an activity and agency into setting a context for stories that are being told, Curious if there's been any use of VR in the process of pitching, either directly having people jump into a VR experience, whether it's a quick demo or for them to play through the entirety of some of these experiences, and then how that impacts how they're able to grok or understand a deeper context for the stories that you're trying to tell through those normal pitch and treatment processes.

[00:35:05.014] Lesley Paterson: I mean, it's certainly a wonderful event. It's not something that I've been able to utilize thus far, but I've got a lot of my friends, directors, producers have utilized VR thus far, but I haven't had the privilege to do that. I think for me, storytelling is about emotion and what better way to sort of instigate emotion than than through vr so it's certainly if you're going in to pitch a big budget film it makes sense yeah even if it's just a moment in a script that encapsulates what you're trying to get across then you know i see it's very beneficial yeah i completely agree i think it's really exciting like the potential that it could have in visualizing or showing someone's vision for a project of creating

[00:35:55.157] Eloise Singer: Like we have sizzle reels, but how amazing would it be to actually step into the world that you want to show, even if you're mocking that up as like a Yui like set and being like, this is the space. This is how I feel the space might be like and the mood and the tone. And as Leslie says, it's story is all about emotion and it feels quite exciting that we can be using emotions. VR is a medium to say this is how we feel that the emotion in this scene would be like and allowing them to walk around and experience it. It's a lot more of a visceral way rather than reading the first 10 pages of a script.

[00:36:33.795] Kent Bye: And there's also just been a lot of discussion and shifts in the VR industry going back to like, say, Venice 2023. I started to hear that Meta producers that were normally funding projects that were at the Venice production bridge were no longer funding any projects that were there. And a lot of those producers were then being reassigned to go work on Meta Horizon Worlds. And Andrew Bosworth had put out a memo saying, like, we need to make Horizon Worlds basically a make or break, especially for mobile. Otherwise, we're going to either be seen as visionaries or as legendary misadventure, is how he phrased it. So I feel like that Meta is almost putting all their eggs in the one basket of Meta Horizon Worlds. Their strategy is really shifting there. A lot of their public funding that they've announced is towards Horizon Worlds. And that was, I guess, simultaneously from when they had taken all the App Lab and all these other apps and kind of put it on the same footing on the app in the App Store. So there's been a lot of discussion. I know Upload VR did a whole reporting with a lot of creators that were speaking on the record, many of them off the record, just because of the sensitivities of all these variety of different issues. And, you know, given that, I'm just wondering if you have any comment in terms of what you see is the current state of the ecosystem changing There's Apple that's also coming into the picture. It's not just Meta, but Meta is certainly the biggest player right now. So they have a lot of sway. And how do you start to navigate this ecosystem? You certainly, as Singer Studios, you're diversified across these other media. So you're not putting everything into all or nothing for VR, but it's a part of your larger strategy. But given that, I'm just curious to hear some reflections on how you start to evaluate the current state of the industry and how you are navigating it.

[00:38:18.353] Eloise Singer: It's a good question. I think, I mean, yeah, it's a really interesting time. Obviously, meta are, from what we're aware, putting a lot of focus on meta horizons. And I think the Upload VR article was very prevalent in terms of what's what the state of play is at the moment and I think it's a huge shift within the VR landscape because we've all been very very used to an old model of releasing apps as we have and having like a system and now that's changing to something that is a lot more focused on Horizon Worlds which is like a free to play and there's a That's a scary place to be. I think I'm a little bit more optimistic than most, if I'm going to be honest with you. I think if the tech goes in the direction that everyone hopes that it will, which I hope it will, I think that Horizons could actually be quite an interesting place. And I think that... There's a world where we can be sitting courtside at basketball games that we would never be able to do in real life just because, one, we might not have the money to do it or we might not be in the right place at the right time. There's a world that we might be able to go see the best concerts in the world that we would only dream of doing. and be right up at the front of this like next to the stage and that's really exciting and there's a future of storytelling where we could be creating things using volumetric and lidar scanning that means that we're telling stories in a completely different way and that's never going to replace film or tv ever and it's never going to replace games but it's a really interesting avenue that i think could be coming in the future and this tech is evolving so quickly, so quickly. And it's only going to get lighter and faster and more performant. And with that, I think comes a huge amount of opportunity. So yeah, there are huge shifts at the moment. And that's scary. But I think change is always going to be a bit scary, but there's always going to be a huge amount of opportunity with it.

[00:40:41.394] Kent Bye: Yeah, Leslie, I don't know if you have any other insights or comments as you're coming into this ecosystem at a point where it feels like it's in a little bit of a limbo state, or at least it never has had an established footing. But given how you start to navigate these realms, maybe it's more similarities than differences at this point. But I'd love to hear any of your reflections on how you...

[00:41:04.108] Lesley Paterson: I mean, ultimately, for me, it's storytelling and storytelling based. So if that is where we focus, there's always going to be opportunities. So, I mean, I'm working with other storytellers from the gaming space and what they bring to the table is just so fascinating. So I think if we meld both worlds, you know, gaming and storytelling together at a really heightened level, then we can have so many different offerings. So, again, I'm so new to this that, you know, there's not too much insight yet, but that's maybe a good thing. So I always think there's opportunity when things are in flux. So that's kind of what we are trying to do at the moment.

[00:41:47.728] Eloise Singer: I think, and to Les's point, you know, there is, there's so much that we can learn from different mediums. For example, let's think about games, all games you have like QA and a testing period. And that's something that you don't have in film. In film, you go through post and then you release a film, usually there are very, unless you're releasing like a massive, massive movie, you don't go through like a testing test screening. And one thing that we've been starting to do since developing games is actually with the films that we're developing, we've started to do test screenings and have test screenings because we've seen the benefits of getting user feedback or in this case, audience feedback. And then we implement it and it's so valuable. And, you know, to flip it on the other side as well, we create a writer's room for each VR project that we make. And that's just part of the process. And that's something that very much has come from film and TV that we're now adopting into games. And as a result, it's strengthening that. the storytelling within the VR projects that we're creating. So yeah, I mean, totally to Les's point, there's such an opportunity here for us to be taking the skill sets. And as Les said at the beginning of the call, you know, me and Les, we have very different skill sets, but when we align them, it's like, It's incredible. I mean, the power and the resources that we have is so unique. And I think that's what's so exciting is that there's this cross industry collaborations that are coming out that are really game changing. And it's just really fun to be a part of that.

[00:43:23.479] Kent Bye: Yeah, and one of the trends that I would say, technologically speaking at least, is that there's been a lot more focus on Gaussian splats and this kind of new neural rendering pipelines that we have. And when I look at some of your previous projects, both of the Pirate Queen as well as with initially Mrs. Ben's Now with Trailblazer, there's a lot of focus on this hyper-stylized, high-fidelity world building that you can do. And so... like at this point, we don't really have like the process of editing a Gaussian splat. A Gaussian splat is essentially like you build a set and then you scan it and then you have it. So you have this opportunity to maybe as a small scale, bring in like small objects or big sets, or maybe there are going to be more ways of piecing these together. I have had conversations with the folks at 5Verse who say that you can do this kind of dual rendering where you have physical based rendering and with Gaussian splats, both being rendered in separate pipelines, but meshed together. And that's on the open web. But just curious if you've started to dig into the potentials for this type of new types of volumetric capture and how you start to look at the trade-offs between the documentary high fidelity versus, you know, you want to have full control over it and the world building and have a consistent style across everything, which I imagine the CGI is still going to be a little bit superior in that, but there may be new opportunities to find either hybrid solutions or ways that you could make it work.

[00:44:49.707] Eloise Singer: I think it's really interesting. I'm really interested in Splats at the moment and the next project that we're looking at very much, we have a vision of what we would like to achieve and it includes Splats and volumetric capture and possibly LiDAR and like how we can combine all three. it's really difficult because one we're really this is so early on and for what we want to do the tech isn't there yet it doesn't mean that it won't be there in the future and it doesn't mean that we're not exploring the pipelines and i think people are very close and actually This afternoon, I'm literally going to do some demos with a bunch of folks to kind of look at how we can work out because we're all sharing the same vision and what we want to achieve, which, as you say, there's so much that can be done. I mean, how incredible would it be to step back in time and really experience it like it was photogrammetry like it was at that point I think that's something that I've always really aspired to achieve and at the moment where we are with the tech obviously we're creating things that are very much sort of hyper real to the best that we can within quest headsets but everyone is leaning in towards sort of more stylized art styles which makes a lot more sense because it's a lot more performant and it's less sort of intensive on Quest headsets so it's much easier to handle. So I do think that volumetric is a really interesting way forward and I do see that to be the future to be honest with you. I think there are going to be different styles obviously there always are but I think when we manage to get this looking as good as we possibly can And to get it performant, that's the challenge is like you can make it look good, but it's not yet performant. But when we can and when we can introduce like really cool aspects of it, I think that it will be an absolute game changer. And I'm really excited for that direction, to be honest, I think. There's so much potential there in what we'll be able to achieve. And, you know, even just the basics of being able to put on a headset and to be in a room with people that you love who are the other side of the world or to be on courtside seats of a football game or a basketball game that you've never been able to go to. Just that ability to open up and break barriers. just feels really exciting and it's really cool. And it's something that, yeah, as a company, we're definitely digging into because it feels like that's just a very exciting direction to be going in.

[00:47:35.547] Kent Bye: Yeah, definitely. The point cloud aesthetic is something that I've continued to see within the context of a number of different immersive storytelling projects. There's going to be a number of them that are going to be premiering at South by Southwest that are kind of using 180 video with point clouds, but also stereoscopic and more stylized and some like Gaussian splats and melding in with like eight eye volumetric captures that are point clouds that are mixed in with everything. And so I feel like this is kind of at the bleeding edge. And I think right now the formats, because there's been a number of different volumetric companies like Windows Mixed Reality Capture is just an example, but a lot of those haven't been open source formats. And so there's a challenge of like, if you shoot it now, then how flexible is it going to be in the future to use some sort of completely new rendering technique that doesn't even exist right now, but at least you would have the data to work from. And so those are, imagine some of the other discussions and ways of trying to capture it so that you can use it today, but also in the future, think about when all those things are actually there coming together, then you can integrate it all into the project. So.

[00:48:40.117] Eloise Singer: Totally. And I think also, you know, the other challenge is volumetric doesn't, you have to get someone into a studio to capture them volumetrically at the moment. And suddenly what's starting to happen is that people are like loading up volumetric trucks, basically. And now we can actually drive, like you can take these trucks to locations to then capture on site, which makes it even easier to make it accessible to people. actually generating volumetric content so I think it's all moving in the right direction and again it's not just kind of the quest or you know the VR side that the techniques do improve it's on the camera side as well of at the moment volumetric you need gazillions of cameras in order to capture this content and Once we're in a place where actually that's reduced, that's going to be really interesting. But yeah, it feels like that's definitely the direction that I think things are going. So I'm excited to check out the content at South By because, yeah, what people are doing in that space at the moment is just really novel and really interesting. And yeah, it's cool. It's a cool use of VR.

[00:49:45.902] Kent Bye: Yeah, definitely check out the Fukushima doc, Currents, and Fly to You. Those are all three, at least I've seen so far, that are going to be featured there at South By. Awesome. Well, I guess as we start to wrap up, I'd love to hear what each of you think is the ultimate potential of virtual reality and immersive storytelling and what it might be able to enable.

[00:50:06.719] Eloise Singer: I think the ultimate potential of virtual reality is something that's going to be embedded within our daily life. I fundamentally believe there's going to be a point where we're not going to have phones, right? Everything is going to be probably through AR glasses or some sort of capacity, but we're not going to have phones anymore. And so the future is XR. And Yeah, I am really optimistic at the moment. I'm just really excited. I'm excited about how the tech is developing, how headsets are going to become lighter and faster and leaner. I'm excited about the fact that Google are coming into this space and have just teamed up with HTC. That's a really cool and massive moment that Apple are continuing to make waves in unique ways. And I just think that, yeah, there's a huge transition within XR at the moment, but it's going to develop into something really interesting. And I'm really obsessed with volumetric capture. And I think that that as a format is going to become more prevalent. And when it does, it's just going to open up a huge way of telling stories in a really interesting, different way. Like imagine a film and being able to step, literally step into that film and go on this experience with those characters. And that's, I think, you know, that's the potential of what we could be doing and where we could go with this. And it just feels really exciting at the moment for me. I'm in the excited mode.

[00:51:47.199] Lesley Paterson: Yeah, so I think we are all in a world where we want to experience and we want to have a visceral response to something. And VR is that perfect tool. And as a technology builds and as we meld our skills of storytelling with the technology, it's that perfect combination. I think it could be utilized in so many different ways, whether it's for, you know, even health reasons, psychological reasons. I mean, it's just on and on and on and on. But I think it is really utilizing all the skills from storytelling to technology together.

[00:52:20.209] Kent Bye: Very cool. And is there anything else that's left unsaid that you'd like to say to the broader immersive community?

[00:52:27.335] Lesley Paterson: I'm very excited to become a part of it, to learn about it, to help grow and build it. So this is the start of many.

[00:52:40.051] Eloise Singer: I mean, I think I'm just always constantly inspired by everyone's work. And I just get really, I feel very honored to be part of this community because everyone's pushing the boundaries in really unique and different ways. And that's really cool. And. you know, we're all in it because we're not afraid to take risks because being in VR is just a giant risk. Like it's literally a giant risk. It's so unknown. And so I would just say like, thanks. Thank you for continually trying to push the boundaries. I'm constantly inspired by what everyone's doing and I really love this community. I think that everyone just wants to create better content and interesting content and we're all just striving for creating stuff that we're really excited about and it's just a fascinating space because we're constantly it feels like we're explorers you know it feels like we're going on this little digital exploration and coming across sometimes gold and sometimes not gold and finding our way through it and that's just really fun so I think yeah there's a massive shift at the moment and there's a lot of things that are changing but ultimately we're all creating really interesting and exciting content and breaking new boundaries and I think that's fantastic

[00:54:01.357] Kent Bye: Awesome. And when does Trailblazer come out?

[00:54:04.240] Eloise Singer: March 7th.

[00:54:06.183] Kent Bye: Okay. So Trailblazer is going to be releasing here on March 7th. So definitely recommend folks go check it out just to see some really beautiful environmental storytelling. And you're getting a first taste of the story that is much broader story, but you kind of get immersed into the world, telling the story through the environment and through these different actions and puzzles. And yeah, you kind of see this whole arc of the character journey that you get to kind of step into the shoes and left with, you know, this, well, Anyway, I won't go into too much of the ending, but I think folks will kind of see the arc and the need to continue to tell the story across other media as well to really flush it out and tell the story. Even though all the stuff that you were mentioning here, there's lots more to be explored here. The beginning of the Mercedes-Benz franchise. And yeah, just always appreciate hearing both what you're working on and your approach to this industry. And you really diversified producing projects across these different media. So it's always a pleasure to get a chance to sit down with you and hear your latest thoughts on where we're at in the industry and where we all are going here in the future. So thank you.

[00:55:13.257] Eloise Singer: Oh, it's a pleasure. I mean, likewise, I love chatting with you because it's always fascinating. And you're so tuned in with what everyone is doing and creating. So it's always such an insightful conversation. So thank you so much. Thanks, guys.

[00:55:28.578] Kent Bye: Thanks again for listening to this episode of the voices of your podcast. And if you enjoy the podcast and please do spread the word, tell your friends and consider becoming a member of the Patreon. This is a, this is part of podcast. And so I do rely upon donations from people like yourself in order to continue to bring this coverage. So you can become a member and donate today at patreon.com slash voices of VR. Thanks for listening.

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