Hilmar Veigar Pétursson has a bold vision for CCP with the mission statement “To create virtual worlds more meaningful that real life.” He believes that after someone’s basic needs on Maslow’s hierarchy of needs are met, then humans will always be searching for ways to bring more meaning and self-actualization in their lives. A lot of those current methods are through consuming physical objects that require a lot of natural resources to produce. Hilmar’s long-term vision is for virtual world’s like CCP’s massively multiplayer online role-playing game of EVE Online to be able to satisfy this human search for meaning through virtual objects and experiences that are more sustainable in the long-run.
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CCP recently raised $30 million dollars to work towards Hilmar’s vision to create virtual worlds that are more meaningful than reality because it can be more sustainable for the earth in the long-run. He recognizes that it’s a grand vision, and that some of it could be seen as controversial. But he’s dedicated to working towards a grander vision where our needs for finding deeper meaning in our lives doesn’t have to come at the cost of the earth.
It may sound a little odd that CCP is working towards this larger vision by releasing two dogfight space fighting games starting with Gunjack for the Gear VR and EVE: Valkyrie for the consumer launches of the Oculus Rift and Playstation VR. But Hilmar says that they’ve spent over three years experimenting with optimizing the game design mechanics for virtual reality, and they they decided to make a self-contained experience based up previous failures. Specifically, he talks about how Dust 514 aimed to be an interface to the EVE Online world through PS3 console-based portal, but that ultimately it didn’t quite work out as well as they had hoped.
Learning from that experience, they want to discover the strengths and weaknesses of the virtual reality medium first with EVE: Valkyrie and Gunjack without trying to shoehorn it into the EVE Online world. They’ve learned not to bite off more than they can chew so that they can iterate and more organically discover how VR will be able to interface with their EVE Online virtual world.
Hilmar also talks about the game design process for EVE: Valkyrie and how they iterated over many years in order to create a game mechanic that user’s could eventually master. There’s a progression between different ships, and they’re using quite a lot of sophisticated 3D user interfaces and information that’s available in the cockpit that will take some time and practice to really master. He says that you can really appreciate and see how good you can get at the game when you play against some of the developers who have been playing it for years now.
There were a number of people who were recommending that I track down Hilmar at the Virtual Reality Intelligence conference because they really found his talk there to be really inspiring. I have to admit that I was initially skeptical about the vision to create virtual worlds and experiences that are more meaningful than reality, but I can definitely appreciate CCP’s grander vision to work towards the ultimate potential for virtual reality in helping to make the world more environmentally sustainable. And given their most recent round of funding, then CCP has a really great shot at helping to make that happen.
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Rough Transcript
[00:00:05.452] Kent Bye: The Voices of VR Podcast.
[00:00:12.036] Hilmar Petursson: My name is Hinnmarveigar Pettersson. I'm the CEO of CCP. We have now been doing VR stuff ever since the Oculus Kickstarter. First, we started with a little Skunk Works project out of our Iceland office called eVR, which later became eValkyrie. And since then, we've added projects like Gunjack, which is a game we're showing here at the show. And then we are doing kind of sort of advanced R&D into input and sort of full body capture, which is called VR Labs, which has a bunch of little kind of experience things where you can control the world by using your full body through a Microsoft Kinect, basically looking at what you're doing.
[00:00:50.921] Kent Bye: Yeah, and in your little blurb and bio, it says that you've been doing VR for about 15 years and have a long interest in VR. Maybe you could talk a bit about how you first got into VR.
[00:01:00.119] Hilmar Petursson: Yeah so my first entry into VR was through VRML way back in the 96 I started doing that. Of course that isn't VR as we know it there were no head-mounted displays but there was a lot of focus on making like a virtual reality modeling language as it was called to make like a 3D version of the internet which was I think decades too early at the time given where hardware was needed to make like a full VR experience. So a bunch of us left that company to form CTP to do, which in many ways can also be called virtual reality. In many ways EVE Online is a virtual reality or a virtual world, even though it doesn't happen through a head-mounted display. Very much the emotional context that the game renders for you, especially when you play it for years, in a way, becomes reality. So, in many ways, you could say that we have been preparing for this moment for decades.
[00:01:57.435] Kent Bye: And so, yeah, maybe you can talk a bit about, like, the first step of your entry into VR is doing kind of like a space dogfight mode, but eventually with, it sounds like with EVE Online, it sounds like it's a fully fledged world with economies and, you know, so maybe you can talk a bit about, like, your starting point and where you see this kind of going for CCP.
[00:02:15.375] Hilmar Petursson: Yeah, I think the main focus for us is not to try to complicate it too much in the beginning. We have learned that in our long history of trying many extremely ambitious things. At some point we were making a console shooter called Dust 514 that connected into EVE Online to a point where you could shoot a missile from EVE Online and it landed on a planet and exploded in a Dust combat session. And we learned many ways from that experience and we have many sort of the technical aspects of doing something extremely interconnected is kind of in place. But right now we're focusing on having the individual experiences like an E-Valkyrie completely stand on its own. So E-Valkyrie is already now after three years of development stood up as a game as a service with its own character progression and ship progression, matchmaking and all that. So it's not going maybe as far as EVE with a full social economy, manufacturing and trading and complete sort of creation destruction. Because we know that's just too much. You cannot innovate on all layers. So in some ways we're just focusing on making sure the VR experience is like super comfortable, super accessible, exactly what you would want to have. Then has good sort of sustainable gameplay. And then we know, okay, what comes after that, we're well equipped as a company to take further steps. But it's like, you can just bite off way more than you can chew if you try to solve for all that in the beginning.
[00:03:43.223] Kent Bye: Yeah, it's pretty amazing to think about, you know, EVE Valkyrie being developed for three years, starting on the DK1, and then to the DK2 years, and now into the next version of the consumer release of the Oculus. And from your perspective, what have been some of the biggest, like, innovations or kind of breakthroughs in terms of the gameplay that you've been able to develop?
[00:04:01.025] Hilmar Petursson: So, I mean, a big leap was head tracking. I mean, first we had the DK1 with very interesting tracking challenges. It was even, because we were in Iceland and the magnetic north is way off from what it was in Irvine. So we had like interesting drift issues with that. So as soon as they got the tracking and the position of tracking right, that was definitely a level up. And then I would say the 90 Hertz was something I was not like a huge believer that it would. I thought they were overextending themselves to go and chase after that. But it really makes a difference when you play Valkyrie on a Crescent Bay. It's amazing. And I mean, it was pretty good to begin with, but it really makes a difference to do it at 90 Hertz and at the resolution we now have today.
[00:04:50.865] Kent Bye: Yeah, and I noticed that when I just played a demo, there was kind of like this 3D radar. I didn't quite understand it, but it seemed like if somebody could really understand it, that there was actually kind of a skill level that, you know, someone that I felt like I kind of sucked, but that people can actually get to the point where they can read this 3D model in front of them with kind of this 3D radar, but also be able to use their skill to be able to win the dogfight.
[00:05:14.200] Hilmar Petursson: Yeah, we're constantly refining the cockpit readouts and all that. I mean in many ways it's like you're designing an F-18. So what's intuitive, what's quick to glance at. It's actually amazing how interesting things you can do when you have the power of people looking around in the scene. so you don't have to cram it all kind of in a 2D monitor as you do in a monitor-based game. So I mean what you're playing now is one version, we have other versions in the works back in Newcastle where the game has been developed, but there's definitely, I've noticed when I play the game kind of day after day after day, you get this kind of very strong sense of mastery when you are playing the game and it's like You get this like, oh my God, I am becoming a better at like flying a fighter craft. Like if there were an alien invasion, I'm now well trained for it. That's what it feels like. And it feels so kind of, it's just exactly what it would be like. You just get the sense, yeah, of course you would do it like that. Of course you would do it like that. And I mean, we have had to work on it for years and years to get it to the level we have it. But that gives you this sort of true mastery of becoming a master of controlling a spaceship in the future. And then you have different ship classes and you have all these different options. So the game has a sort of an easy to sort of learn, but it takes forever to master. And when you play against some of the team that's been developing the game, you just gain a whole new level of appreciation for how good you can become at it.
[00:06:46.534] Kent Bye: Wow, yeah, I'd imagine that they wouldn't stand much of a chance. But the thing that was striking to me was that using a gamepad, to me, didn't feel like as much of an intuitive one-to-one translation as if I would have had a joystick that's represented there, or a Hoidus game controller or input control. Is that something that you've also looked at, or is that something that you want to have a level playing field to be able to have people be able to compete equally with each other?
[00:07:12.547] Hilmar Petursson: We're definitely going for a level playing field. I mean, people's experience with controllers, just mileage varies. I mean, if you're really comfortable with the controller, then, I mean, you have a very intuitive, immediate sense. But if you aren't super comfortable, it takes, like, not that much time to get used to it. And also, a lot of the game revolves around you kind of tracking with your hat on top of flying the spaceship. And tracking with your hat is, like, super intuitive. Little kids can do that. So it's actually one of the things we really then took and refined in our other game Gunjack, where it's really only about that.
[00:07:49.843] Kent Bye: We're here at the Virtual Reality World Expo, and you gave a talk and you're talking a bit about how virtual reality can save the world. And so from your perspective, what were some of the big points that you were trying to make there?
[00:08:02.352] Hilmar Petursson: So it's kind of an involved point. So the basic premise is that we tend to use atoms a lot to generate electronic signals in our heads. And we do that through possession, what we choose to possess and buy. And the Western economy is very much geared towards having people consume things through designed and perceived obsolescence. where you might have something today, it's perfectly fine, but you need to get a new one because it's not perceived as good as the latest thing. This applies to fashion, tech gadgets, so many things. And this has been an ever-increasing escalation driven by how we run our economies, which have to grow. And when you put that kind of growth onto a finite resource base like the earth, it just won't add up. There are not enough atoms on the earth to satisfy the end condition of this game. And we're kind of living through it now where, I mean, some people have a lot, some people have very little. The world is changing. People are being mobilized because of global warming and just water depletion and a lot of things which are driven for this wiring for consumption that is engineered by like all of Western industries. And I mean, ultimately, when you look at it, like, why do you need a new car? Why do you need an airplane ticket? Why do you need a new set of clothes? Why do you need all these things? And they always kind of boil down to some human interaction patterns. So we're talking about here, we represent each other in the way we have chosen to look. We have taken atoms of the earth to do that. And this interaction we're having, we could have it virtually, we could have it being whatever in our different places, and there would be very little difference if we had really good VR. And I mean really good VR. It's going to be there in 10 years or so, where we could have this dialogue we're having now with me gesturing and nuances to my face and my voice and all those things. So when you think of that world and now you put the human animal in that setting and you satisfy this need for consumption and owning and possessing and things, but you no longer have to rip atoms of the earth to create things. To satisfy that, you can make it out of electrons in a completely sustainable universe where you have a fixed cost per human. So some people can have a lot, some people can have little, but their ecological footprint is a fixed size. And of course you have to make cheap computers and cheap VR headsets and all that to get the ecological footprint of an individual person down. Then you need like solar cells in your house to get the power out of the equation. But all these things are solvable. But then we end up with, okay, we're still people. We are engineered for this massive need of having and sharing and living and all those things, which is again creating this unsustainable track we're currently on. And I believe And it's kind of a scary proposition, you can't map out all the steps and it sounds a little uncomfortable and la la la la la. You think of all the negatives to it, which there are. It's dangerous, what about this and this and this? It's all there. It's always going to be the case when you have a huge disruption like that. Rock and roll is going to put the youth to hell, like all these kind of disruptions we live through. But I want to look at the positive opportunity and I think we can really genuinely save the planet. by doing a really good job of innovating and pioneering there.
[00:11:54.762] Kent Bye: And is that something that you're personally going to be working on? Because I know working on video games is one avenue towards that, but it's not necessarily satisfying that consumerist need in any specific way.
[00:12:06.553] Hilmar Petursson: Well, in a way it is. I mean, for example, in EVE it's a social economy, you can own things, you can build bigger things, you can now, like we're doing now in the next expansion for EVE Citadels, you can build things that are bigger than a Death Star. So, I mean, you can create like the sort of digital pyramids of our time by evangelizing a social group on a mission to do that. which is an extremely kind of aspirational and satisfying activity and a human endeavor. When it comes to like right now what we're doing in VR, it's just we have learned that just don't complicate it too much in the beginning. We are all kind of learning the basic language and basic opportunity. So we're focused on taking steps that just make sense in the present. There is enough innovation to get through and just getting the good, comfortable, immersive experiences stood up. trying to complicate all that now with some future vision of recreating all of western consumption mechanics inside that experience. It's just way too early to do that, but we can still have that ultimate vision, which is why we say at CCP that our core purpose is to make virtual worlds more meaningful than life.
[00:13:14.613] Kent Bye: Oh wow, yeah, that can be a controversial statement there, that virtual reality is more meaningful. But I will say that it does sound like that EVE Online has the potential to have an online economy such that, do you imagine that people could actually make a living on doing work within EVE Online?
[00:13:33.485] Hilmar Petursson: I absolutely can imagine a world where you can make a living in a virtual world and it can satisfy your kind of Maslow's hierarchy of needs aspects of the real world. Because if you look at, once we kind of crack the code on large-scale manufacturing, I think about 20% of the activities in a Western economy goes into the lowest areas of the Maslow's hierarchy of needs. which are like food and shelter, procreation, sort of basic human needs and desires. After that you have like respect of others, self-actualization and all that which are purely mental concepts and can actually be divorced from the basic hierarchy of needs. And if you look at EVE Online and what needs it satisfies, it spikes quite high up on the level of a shared social experience you can have. And we've seen spectacular examples of just the human spirit of what people have done in EVE. It's a huge inspiration. And you don't have to imagine many steps where that can be just the thing you do. Because there's so much of work. It's a completely virtual phenomenon. I mean, you run a podcast. It's not really needed. That satisfies elements of our brain. It does nothing to our physical condition. It doesn't build a house. So what you're doing is a completely virtual phenomenon. It's no less fantastic than making concrete to build houses. And in many ways, we attribute more value to these kind of more experiential things. But sometimes we get confused what's happening in reality and what's not happening in reality. It's ultimately all happening in our heads. When somebody is listening to this podcast, it's a completely virtual experience. They're listening to us chatting here. They're, in a way, experiencing a virtual world, the moment we're having right now.
[00:15:28.088] Kent Bye: It's just noticing my body when you said earlier that, you know, that we can create virtual worlds that are more meaningful. I had a resistance just because I did an interview with Tom Furness and one of the things he said is he sees part of the ultimate potential of virtuality is that it can actually make us appreciate reality even more so that it's sort of supplement to recontextualize what we have and to actually take care of the planet and to do the things so that we are connected. And so that was part of my initial resistance to that.
[00:15:54.463] Hilmar Petursson: I get the initial resistance. And rather than go into kind of the perfect grammatical construct of what it means, it's just, I mean, okay, we can break it down. So can we make virtual possessions more meaningful than real world possessions? And then we break down the concept of possession. which is not a real thing. The concept that you can own this recording device and I can own my jacket is a complete social construct. It's a complete virtual thing. So when you have broken down the concept of possession, well, I can make possessions more meaningful in virtual reality than in reality, because they don't rape the earth, possessions in the virtual reality. So check, 90% of the law is possession, as they say. Okay, can we make a human relationship that takes place in VR as meaningful or even more meaningful than a human relationship that takes place in the real world? I think we can. I mean, people have fallen in love through being pen pals, so I think there is a way to create an amazing sense in our brains through something rudimentary as writing a letter. And if you can have people fall in love by writing letters to each other, and if you have the full power of VR, and ultimately what we have are very defined input and output ways into our brains, It's kind of scary to think about it. It kind of breaks down, takes us to an uncomfortable place on how we function. I think we can just satisfy those inputs quite well and have exactly the same amount of emotion, positive things, and all that happen in the electric noise that is our brain. Because the physical reality of it brings with it so many limits that I think we can realize our fuller potential by transcending beyond those limits.
[00:17:50.672] Kent Bye: Yeah, and a question I like to ask everybody at the end of all my interviews is, you know, what do you think is the ultimate potential of virtual reality and what it might be able to enable?
[00:18:00.897] Hilmar Petursson: I think through virtual reality we will be able to transcend our current bodily and physical limitations in a way that a Buddhist monk can, just in his brain. But I think we can create a world where you can have amazing experiences where you can do things where you can only dream of today, and it's not going to hurt one atom on the earth.
[00:18:28.497] Kent Bye: Great. Well, thank you. Thank you. And thank you for listening. If you'd like to support the Voices of VR podcast, then please consider becoming a patron at patreon.com slash Voices of VR.
