I interviewed director Alaa Al Minawi about The Liminal that showed at IDFA DocLab 2024. See the transcript down below for more context on our conversation.
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[00:00:05.458] Kent Bye: The Voices of VR podcast. Hello, my name is Kent Bye, and welcome to the Voices of VR podcast. It's a podcast that looks at the structures and forms of immersive storytelling in the future of spatial computing. You can support the podcast at patreon.com slash voicesofvr. So continuing my series of looking at different immersive experiences that are part of IFA Doc Lab 2024, today's episode is with a piece called The Luminal, which is an immersive nonfiction installation piece. So this piece has a lot of spatial audio components. And so essentially it's a wall where it's like this rectangle and you have four different people and you're instructed to go up at different times. And in order to really listen to it, you have to put your head up against this wall in order to hear the voices that are speaking to you. So there's like 32 different speakers and you kind of move around but there's different stories that are being told some of them are documentary stories so interviews with different people talking about their experiences of being on either side of different walls or there's also more of a speculative fiction component where there's a whole story of people who go live inside of the wall and And it's really interrogating the nature of walls, being on different side of those walls, the nature of different conflicts, what's happening in the war in Gaza. And yeah, it's actually a piece that ended up getting a special jury mention for immersive storytelling. So I'm just going to read the jury statement. It says, as a jury, we are moved to commend the intention and imagination of a speculative work and progress that encourages active listening and reaching through walls erected to separate people. This work uses spatial sound to create a choreography between a wall, the stories inside of that wall, and the people who stand outside of it. It invites audiences to inhabit an awkward state of learning, something we feel is needed more than ever at this time. So that's going to be coming on today's episode of the Voices of VR podcast. So this interview with Allah happened on Monday, November 18th, 2024 at Ifadak Lab in Amsterdam, Netherlands. So with that, let's go ahead and dive right in.
[00:02:08.803] Alaa Al Minawi: My name is Ala Minawi. Mainly my work is a mix between installation arts and performing arts. So I started as a light designer and a sonographer, but then shifted towards doing my own installations in public spaces. And then for the past five years, I moved on towards performance art. And my work is basically trying to figure out a way to merge both Somehow, how can I do an installation? But at the same time, it's a performance. And is it possible? And is it interesting also? So yeah, that's the work.
[00:02:43.687] Kent Bye: Great. Maybe you could give a bit more context as to your background and your journey into the space.
[00:02:48.373] Alaa Al Minawi: Yeah, so I started as a light designer and a scenographer and then started doing my own installations, light installations and then installations that are not light installations, public spaces, and then moved to performance art. I am originally Lebanese, Palestinian, Dutch artist. So yeah, I think this is my background. I teach in some universities here and yeah.
[00:03:11.440] Kent Bye: And when did you start making this type of immersive media? I mean, we're here at DocLab where there's a lot of different types of immersive projects. And it's kind of an immersive installation that you're creating. But where did that begin in terms of your practice of moving from lighting to design and sonography and getting into more of these installations? Maybe you could just elaborate a little bit more of where those first installations began and the lineage that led you to where you're at now.
[00:03:33.971] Alaa Al Minawi: Actually, it just came organically. I mean, because I started from a light design and scenography background, spaces and dealing with spaces was very important. But for me, with time, I thought like I wanted to do work where the scenography itself has its own story and thus the installations came. So how do I deal in this space? And I put on an installation that holds in its own narratives, if you want. And that kept developing and at some point having an installation or a piece of art in a public space was not enough for me. I thought text was needed. In that sense, I felt the addition of text or like moving towards performance art became interesting, but I didn't want to go to the theatre in the classical form of what it is because I started having, I'm still having doubts about the classical theatres and what impact it can have. So I thought of trying out experiences since 2017, I think, or 18 that I started doing these kind of experiences or experiments, if you want, where could I do a performance in the absence of the performer? Could I do a performance where the audience have more agency? so the narrative of the performance is not finished it stops at a certain point and it gives the audience the chance to add their own personal narrative so diminishing the power structure or trying to play around with the power structure between the performer or the maker and the audience member so that's when it started in 2018 i had the first installation till now all this except for one most of the installation that i do the performer never comes I did one last year where people were actually invited through their WhatsApp number. When you book the ticket, we ask you for your number. And then we gave them a location that the performance starts here. So they met in this public space, 12 to 15 audience members. They all met there. And then I created a WhatsApp group. And then I messaged them like, hey, guys, I'm not going to come. So we're going to continue the performance without me. So let's continue through WhatsApp. And then I used all the mediums of WhatsApp, from the voice to photography to calling someone, like the different possibilities of WhatsApp. So accessing something that is so basic in terms of technology as WhatsApp, everyone knows how to deal with it. But then having a dramaturgical sense, they were then sent to a location. It was a house. There was a key under the rug. They go in. There's no one in the house, but they go in. They're asked to sit, to take off their shoes, to sit. Someone is asked to make tea to everyone. But the whole performance was about the fact that in Lebanon, the mother doesn't give citizenship to her children. And it tells the story about a person who is from a Lebanese mother and a non-Lebanese father who was not accepted in the community. That's why he could not be with them. But at some point, the story stops. And then they're invited to a table to have dinner. There is only a salad. And while they're eating, the electricity cuts off, so they turn on their phones in this house that there's no one but them in, the lights of their phone. And then I asked them about their personal stories, about their own parents. And the interesting thing is that people actually start giving so much and most of the feedback that I got is like, how the hell am I telling people that I don't know so much personal stuff? So these kind of connections, these kind of experiments that connects people together with the absence of the performer are things that I've been trying out and the liminal is one of those experiments now. So it's basic in terms of scenography. It's just a wall, a wall standing there. And that wall talks to you. That's the only difference. And asks you to come closer and put your ear at the wall to listen to stories. Because there are a group of people who decided to leave this world and go inside it. And the question is, is it going to be too boring? Is it going to be interesting? When you strip your performance from all, well, it has a scenographic element, it's a wall, but from many of the theatrical elements, the fantastic theatrical elements, what stays? That's an experiment I'm trying to find.
[00:07:35.956] Kent Bye: Yeah, I'm looking forward to digging much more into detail into the liminal. But before we do that, I want to elaborate on this idea that you're playing with the power dynamics of the performer and not being there. And there's another piece that's here at IFA Doc Lab this year called Drinking Bracht, which was by Sister Sylvester. And I just had a chance to talk to her earlier today. And she was saying that part of it was that in order to do the performance version, she needed seven people. And it travels. And just economically, it didn't work out. part of the provocation from Casper Sonnen from DocLab was, is there a way that we can kind of automate this performance in a way that uses interdisciplinary transdisciplinary art practices of all the immersive media, XR and theater, film, all the different media to come together. And that eventually now at this point, there's no one that's even in the room when you have the performance. Similarly with your piece, with the liminal, you're not there. And it's got a completely different practicality where it wouldn't make sense for people to give that type of performance because there's the speakers on the wall that are speaking to you. But you'd mentioned that this seemed to be coming more from a creative place rather than a practical economic place of creating something that's automated. So maybe you could take me back and elaborate a little bit more as to this decision to decenter yourself as a performer to not actually be present and have this automated or asynchronous or synchronous but you're not there co-present with people communicating and where you think that really began as artistic inspiration for your practice
[00:09:01.090] Alaa Al Minawi: Yeah, I mean, I had questions about theatre itself. Because I worked in theatre, like in a classical theatre, for so many years as a light designer, for 10 years as a light designer and scenographer. And this relationship between the audience and the spectator, for many years, since many years, I started questioning what is it doing so am i a maker so i'm an artist this is my point of it from my personal perspective it doesn't mean that i do still watch theater even the classical theater what i see and sit and watch it's not classical in the terms it could be experimental but the idea of this relationship between the audience and the do i say what do i want to tell people and do i want them to be seated and just listen to me if i would like to communicate with the audience is engaging them Not in a way like participatory, but engaging them with the real stories, like actually giving them value of their own stories, to have presence as part of the performance. Would I be able to communicate with them in a better way? Would I be able to touch them in a more effective way, in a deeper way? That is the question that I have. I have questions about what is a performer doing? I mean, until there is a need for a performer, do I need a performer to make a performance? Or is it by default, the minute I think of a performance, okay, how many performances do we have? How many actors do we have? So I have big questions about that. I even have questions about text. Do I need text? So I'm really trying to question the basics that are needed for a theatre performance or a theatre in general to be done. And with these questions, I found out, for now, for example, I found out I still need text. But for the liminal, for example, it's text-based. But I stripped the scenography. The scenography was in the previous performance because they go into a house and there were lighting and there are different aspects of experiences. So, yeah, it's just questions about the structure of theatre, questioning it, not necessarily criticising it, but questioning. How minimal and how minimal can I go? And with the minimality that I'm going through, is it still effective? Do I need all this fantastic? Yesterday there was a talk about the sense of awe in theatre. Is it important? So, yeah, I think this is the main questions that I have. But now for the next performance, for example, we'll talk about The Lemon, but The Lemon is part of a bigger project that's going to happen next year that most probably will continue on stage. And I have big questions. What language am I going to use? Am I going to go on stage again? Really? And how? So this is also another experiment.
[00:11:33.655] Kent Bye: Okay, well, I got a good sense of where you're coming from and a little bit of where you might be going, but let's dig into the liminal now. So where did this project begin for you? What was the exciting incident that you felt like you wanted to tell this specific story and tell it in this specific way?
[00:11:48.589] Alaa Al Minawi: This is part of a research that started around two years ago, I think. I had an interest in researching Arab futurism. Arab Futurism is a movement which is actually inspired by Afro-Futurism, which is an older movement from the 50s and the 60s, rethinking the future, also rethinking the power structures and power dynamics of the world. So it's rethinking the future for the Arab communities or Arab societies, different than what it is now. In short, it's that saying that the present is not working, how can we rethink a future? And there are lots of artists who have been working with the theme of Arab futurism from the Arab world, Syrian, Palestinian. There is also Gulf Arab futurism. It's completely different context, different dynamics from there, but it's still there. And I was fascinated by this. There's lots of sci-fi happening. But yes, how can you reimagine a world with different power structures? This is the main start of my research. And for a year I was thinking, or two, I was thinking, OK, how can we recreate a world? And then I started a series of interviews. The main focus was if we bring people from marginalized communities, or what is described as marginalized communities, and they were given power to rule, what kind of world would come out? So one of the experiments that I had last year was if Lebanon, let's say Lebanon, becomes a kingdom, back to be a kingdom. And this kingdom had a queen and this queen is a drag queen. And she has all the executive powers in her hands. What is the first executive order she would do? What is the second one? What is the third one? So basically, would it be drastic changes? Would it be revenge for all the years that she went through? What kind of world would she be able to make? So I did interviews with a group of drag queens from Lebanon, and I asked them this question. And very interesting answers came along. But then it developed even more, and with the war in Gaza, I was also working on borders and the idea of no man's land. And then with the war in Uganda, the whole research really shifted. It was still about power structure and about futurism. But what was important is not the future, it's about the now. I mean, if I want to think of the future, we need to exist today. And with the genocide happening, there are big questions about that. Who's going to survive this? Maybe World War III will happen. Everyone talks about the Russian nuclear war coming in. So really, we are in a world where our own existence is being threatened first by nature, what we're doing to nature, and secondly, by the possibilities of nuclear wars happening between huge powers and through genocide to marginalize communities on every level. For example, in the Netherlands, we're literally underwater over here. You know, we're like literally now talking, but we are one meter and a half underwater. But these dams are protecting us. But if one iceberg like melts somewhere in the North Pole, we might all drown. So there's this thing that about our own existence that really we think about. So at least for me, it is resonating somehow. And I was like, wait, how can I start thinking or reimagine the future without acknowledging the now? And in the now, what it seems is happening is like, OK, living together is not working. Maybe we live parallel to each other. So a group of people who felt that this is not working, they decided to go inside the wall to live between the pipes and the cables until something else happens. They are living between the pipes and no one has access to them. You can hear them, but you cannot join them. And then you will know why they're there, how they decided to be there, to drop their bones and everything and just go inside and live there. That's the start of the project. So it's the sociopolitical realities that is, well, the whole world is going right wing and very separative, right? It's very polarized. So it felt like, yeah, everyone is creating their own bubble, their own communities and just living in it. This will develop furthermore to the performance which is called No Man's Land. We're going to go to the theater and mainly the performance is going to be in No Man's Land between the borders of two countries. And someone decided to go, a Palestinian actually, decided to leave everything and live in No Man's Land because this is the land that is owned by no one. And they will start creating a whole world. They have the chance to create a whole world. But with all the traumas that they brought with them, they evolved into this new person. So I'm researching all the traumatic aspects that could happen with genocide and how can you create a world of what is left of you when everything ends. I know it's too much to say, but this is where I am.
[00:16:21.551] Kent Bye: It's really helpful to kind of understand both the origins and where it's at now and then where it's going next. But to come back to the liminal, because you were talking around the world building that you're doing with this Arab futurism is that there's people that are living inside this wall and you have a chance to go up and listen to them. And you mentioned the filter bubbles of reality and how there's like these different communities having different realities and each seeing each other as being untethered from what the actual reality is. And so and then in between those two realities are boundaries and in this case walls where there's completely different realities that are happening with the physical existence of some of these walls, especially in Gaza and the Palestinian communities. And so that ends up being a pretty powerful metaphor for being on the outside of that wall. And whether that wall is an external wall or internal wall, either way, the wall is a boundary and you have this encounter with the boundary to then listen to what's on the other side of that wall. And so I'd love to hear you maybe elaborate on using the wall as this primary metaphor that you're using in the liminal.
[00:17:25.202] Alaa Al Minawi: I mean, I found, for me, the wall became very, very interesting for me because the wall could be many things. I mean, the wall basically could protect you from that. Actually, that was the intro of the performance. It describes a wall or what is the actual description of a wall if you Google it or if you find it in a dictionary. A wall is a place that is made to protect you if you're in a house, but it will imprison you if it is in prison. It would separate in case of borders, you know, it would oppress if you start putting cameras and barbed wires and also protect the others. So it's really always relative. And yeah, the two sides of the wall, the polarity, the duality of things between the two sides of the wall, this side and this side. But also I wanted to check what is inside, what is within the wall itself. So these three worlds, if you want, this side and this side and what is in between, for me became very, very interesting. Of course, this is still not finished. Next year it will develop even more because I don't know if people from both sides will interact or not. But yes, the main interest is the fact of it could separate, it could protect, it could seclude. Yeah, it has the yin and the yang, both possibilities. But then the human activity or the human action makes it what it is because the role is what a person makes it.
[00:18:44.505] Kent Bye: Yeah, I had a couple of encounters with the wall and just to kind of describe some of the physical aspects of the installation because I was here on the first days when it opened and then so I came in and someone was already listening to it and then I was like, okay, I'll just go up and start to listen and then had a hard time kind of finding the voices and walking around and then I found it was like, okay, just coming in cold, it was hard to access and then later I saw that you put a note on the seats that said, okay, there's a beginning of this. part of the challenge of having an automated performance that just is on a running loop is that if you come into the middle, it doesn't make as much sense. And I think this is one of those pieces that you really kind of have to be onboarded and start from the beginning because it's hard to jump in the middle of it. So then I came back and then it was like, okay, I'm going to have to like be there and dedicate myself to like listening to it. But then there's also like at least three or four different storylines. And so I was like, okay, I'm going to have to like trying to understand all of the different aspects of the piece, because it's really rich. But at the same time, being in a festival context where people may be talking in the background, then it's like, oh, then it actually becomes very difficult. So in terms of accessibility, it can be difficult. And then you're moving the voices sometimes, and then I lose the voices. So there's all these things where Even experiencing this experience of the wall, I had a number of different walls of how it was being exhibited of getting access to some of the story elements. And so I imagine that the intended experience of people starting at a specific time and then you're guided through this experience. But I'd love to hear some of your process of starting to design this as like an automated piece, but also as a piece that does have some challenges when it comes to having a way that people can access and interact with it in a way that was intended.
[00:20:28.291] Alaa Al Minawi: As I've said, it's still a work in progress. So we're still learning from what the possibilities could be for this project. But one of the things that we wanted to do is to create a ritual. So basically at the entrance of the door, there is a sign, but I don't think most of the people read it, which says, please come in with the least noise possible. And for example, for me now, okay, of course, and there is also a volunteer, so hoping that that would help in informing people. But now I'm thinking about it while you're talking. One of the things that I'm going to do, I usually in my work, I add lots of rituals, at least one or two rituals. I'm also interested, before you go into the room, a ritual has to be made at the door. And with that ritual, you were asked to come in in silence. And that would change a lot of things from the entrance of the people. So in that sense, yes, it had to be more silent, I think, inside. There is also a paper saying that it starts there, but we thought this is not clear. We need to make it as clear as possible. So the next day we really put that sticker, because it's a time-based performance. It has a beginning and it has an end. it's okay if you want to start you would sit in the queue on these designated times but if other people are walking they were asked to walk silently they can walk around you and check what is happening also giving in that with these kind of performances the audience could do whatever they want so leaving it to what it is and then if it works it will be great but then we think about What are you going to hear? Is it going to be annoying? But also, if you want to listen to people inside the world, you have to put some energy to know what's happening inside. So maybe that works as part of the dramaturgy that maybe if someone talks like, oh, I want to know what's happening. If I miss them, then I'm missing them. But I'm missing an important part. So I'm testing all of these. And in terms of text, yes, there are two stories on one side of the world and one story on two sides of the world. So two sides are equal stories. And these two sides, this is a story and this is a story. So there are three different stories. so if you want to listen to them you have to go back and sit another 15 minutes and you go through the experience again but it's okay to hear one but if you hear the second one you start to get more context and if you hear the third one you get more context and it's also an experiment that i'm having in itfa because the first two the ones from this side this is an interview they're actually interviews with people so it almost has a documentary aspect in it one of them is a person who is from the trans community who talks about her experience that when she transitioned from her male body to a female body the privileges that she lost how she is not fully heard in a room anymore how she is looked at as incompetent suddenly just because she changed into a woman's body so she talks about that experience the other person is a Palestinian person who lives in a refugee camp in Lebanon and he describes being a Palestinian in the camp in Lebanon and the third part so these are the two who almost seem like a documentary the other part is a fictional part where I write a whole text and talk a bit philosophical about what is a wall, what it means, why we went inside the wall. So I was trying the two genres, if you want, to see what I can build up. Is it interesting to have both? Is it interesting to have one? Or maybe it's interesting to write the whole thing and get inspired by the interviews. So it's still a testing process, I would say.
[00:23:34.335] Kent Bye: Yeah, and usually when I have a project, I will just experience it without reading too much around it. I did an interview with the IFA Doc Lab curators, and so sometimes I get information, but sometimes I find that if I read too much, then there can be like different spoilers or other things. I kind of want to see what the experience of the piece is without any of that. And after going through your piece, I did listen to each of those three stories, but I didn't pick up that one was constructed or manufactured. Part of it may be just because it was... The haptic experience of putting my face up against the wall, it took off my glasses so I could really put my ear up against the wall. I had both my hands on the wall so that I could feel the vibrations. If it was moving, I could know a little bit where to move. So some of it that I did hear, I think some of the first stories I heard were more of the documentary. And so maybe there was a part of like this speculative world that you've created. I was reading it as, oh, these are people that are actually living this. So I think depending on which one people hear first, that may be setting a context for what all of it is. kind of the idea that you're blending and blurring or that people are actually literally living inside the wall rather than the wall serving as a metaphor that they're on one side of the imprisoned and I'm on the side that is listening to what their experiences are so that's just some feedback as I'm listening to it and I guess the question is like As people are getting onboarded into this experience, how much do you prime them into this kind of blending and blurring of this speculative worlds or Arab futurism type of framing versus the documentary framing, which is kind of like the documentation of what's happening and how you start to negotiate that?
[00:25:07.259] Alaa Al Minawi: there is something theatrical anyway and unreal about putting your ear on a wall and trying to hear a story right and someone actually told me something very interesting the other day when they experienced it they said there's something childish about it because the last time we put our faces on the wall is when we're children i was like of course most of my works really bring things from childhood and playfulness from childhood so that feeling of putting your face on the wall anyway gives you some kind of comfort But then we always put, at least for me, when I put my ear on the wall, I wanted to check if there's something inside, if there's someone inside that, you know? But also to feel the coldness of the wall. And I don't know why we do it also. As children, sometimes there is no logic. There's something challenging about it. There's something that you cannot, yeah. Unless you say this is real, this is a documentary, people would not assume, well, the stories sound real. but I don't mind them being blurry. I don't mind them at all to be blurry between, is this real? Is it not? What is fiction? What is not? There is a lot of artists actually that work on archives, but then they add fiction. They add untrue stories to their fiction, which I find very fascinating. So bringing something from reality, but then fictionize it a bit. But then you get lost. What is real? What is not real in this text? So it's under experimentation, the three of them. Do they blend? Do they month? And also one of the experimentation is what you're saying. If you start from this side, it's a whole different experience as you go from the other side, because the other side is explaining why we went inside the wall, why we are singing and all of that. While if you go on the first side, you don't get that unless you go to the other side. And for me also, if I take texts and not decide where we want to start with, what happens also? And for now it works. People are invited if they're curious to go to the other side. But yeah, I think the full experience would be to go from both sides maybe for now, but it's all testing and experimentation also. Playing around.
[00:26:57.972] Kent Bye: Yeah. So when I first came on the first day, there were other people that were experiencing it and I kind of jumped in and tried to get started, but I wasn't able to find it and really be onboarded onto the piece. So I had to come back. And when I came back and saw it the other three or four times, I was by myself. So there wasn't other people that were there. So I had the choice because there's the beginning that says, okay, there's these four different seats. And then, you know, I was actually sitting on the left seat and I said, okay, the right seat, you can go first. And it's like, okay, well, I'm just going to go because I don't want to sit here. I want to just go and And see it. So I went up and then I noticed after going through each of the different seats that people sitting on the right on both sides get to go first. And the people on the left are kind of sitting there waiting. And I was like, OK, I'm waiting here for a little bit longer than I'm expecting. OK, am I going to be invited? This person gets to experience more, you know, just kind of all these things are running through my mind. and I'm wondering if that was a deliberate decision to kind of have an asymmetry of access between the different seats but also from a story perspective that asymmetry but also from more of a practical perspective if there's too many voices speaking at the same time that it can be a little like overlapping and you can't hear them as well yeah it's both because first for me it will be interesting for example for you as the one who's still seated
[00:28:07.236] Alaa Al Minawi: what you will see is the first scenographic image. You will see a person starting to stick their face on the wall. So you're actually getting to have knowledge now of what is happening in front of you. So for me, this becomes interesting. And then the voice is going down. So you're actually learning what is happening. And then the voice comes in. It's like, oh, it's your turn now. You know, so now you know what's going to happen. But scenographically or like in an image wise, you will be the one who is lucky to see a person who's face on the wall. The other person would not have that image. So for me, that became interesting in terms of like asymmetry. The symmetry happens when because both on the right will go on the cube. If there's a full house, if there are four at the same time, the one on the right on this side and the one on the right on this side will stand up, will go. And if you walk around them, you will see two people standing on cubes in an opposite direction at the same time. and then people for me this became the symmetry in terms of symmetry but there is also a practical side is that yes how would you give two requests or two instructions at the same time and people will get it because you would ask them to follow the voice so you will follow the voice but if the other voice comes your ears want to know where is it coming from so we're giving time to people to slowly follow the voice that keeps fading out and actually loops towards one speaker And then you go up and then you start hearing it. There's 32 speakers inside the wall to make this experience work. And sometimes raising the volume just a bit would make the other person on the other side not hear. Because we're using diatom speakers, which are speakers, translucent speakers. You stick them to the wall and it makes the whole wall become a speaker.
[00:29:46.175] Kent Bye: I felt the vibration of the wall. It's quite a haptic experience there, yeah.
[00:29:50.239] Alaa Al Minawi: Because that's the best way to make it clearer. Otherwise, if you put a normal speaker outside, the voice really reflects, but we have it also to direct your ear. It was quite a number of experimentations, like how can people walk, hopefully can be guided, without really putting a mark and saying, go to position number two. Yeah.
[00:30:11.027] Kent Bye: So on the wall, there's obviously the two sides of the wall, and then there's the ends. Are there any speakers that are on the end, or is it just on the two main walls where all the speakers are at?
[00:30:19.350] Alaa Al Minawi: You mean on the edges? Yeah, on the edge. Not yet, no. So basically, most of the speakers are in the different positions that people go through. There are four movements for the right one, and three by three for the second side.
[00:30:32.546] Kent Bye: Okay. And so there's also some stairs for people that are on the right side can walk up and there's instructions that are actually moving you through the space. And I think it is another dimension of actually moving your body through the space and seeing the piece. I did have a couple of times where they were asking me to follow the voice and then I went like in the wrong direction and then I lost it. I'm wondering if you could elaborate a little bit on your intention of having people actually move around, not just stick on one spot for the entire performance. And once they find it, you're asking them to move around and have a little bit of the chaos of having to find it again.
[00:31:05.939] Alaa Al Minawi: For me, the people inside would not be able, and it's said in my text, on the other side of the wall, it says it's not okay to stay in the same place. So these people try not to stay in the same place, even when they are inside the wall, because it's not safe for them to be in the same place. So that's why they're moving from one place to the other. Of course, this I would develop later on in the text to make it clearer. But the game is that we are together and we're walking together while I'm telling you my story. So you are moving with me and I'm moving with you on the other side. So if I'm inside the wall and you're outside the wall, we have this parallelism together of walking from one place to the other. And I wanted that. And And I don't know, because for me, it's an empty wall. But when people are on it, then this is the scenography that we have. It's people's bodies that keep on shaping and reshaping. And it is inspired by the Egyptian pharaoh, the calligraphy.
[00:31:57.327] Kent Bye: Hieroglyphics.
[00:31:58.307] Alaa Al Minawi: Hieroglyphics. So these kind of images of people sticking to the wall and going down, that became fascinating for me while they are listening to the wall. But then, of course, in the coming developed piece, people will interact more with the wall. I will ask them to talk to the wall. Well, they do in the first one and the second one, but they will talk more and then they might communicate with each other also. That will happen in a later phase.
[00:32:22.736] Kent Bye: Can you elaborate a little bit on if that's connected to a physical experience in the world right now in terms of this idea of it's not safe to be in one space?
[00:32:31.974] Alaa Al Minawi: Everywhere. If you think of LGBT communities, they are getting less and less safer everywhere from the United States to the Middle East, which is by default not safe. If you talk about Palestinians and not being safe because there is a erasure kind of rhetoric that says we have to get rid of them, we have to erase them from the earth. So what do you do in that sense? It happens in marginalized communities in any world. Here, for example, people from Moroccan or Algerian descents in France, they are... So if you like, the main concept is the underground world, the communities that feel that they need to not be part of a bigger system and to create their own systems that exists all the time. And it's getting more and more. And in that sense, it is inspired by the fact that lots of communities are in need to create their own parallel worlds because this world is not working. And when you give up on changing that world, that's when you create your own world. And you start creating your own cosmos, if you want. Because you know what? Maybe some communities are no longer interested in making any more change. Because change is futile with such an oppressive system. Or systems. Because not one system.
[00:33:43.243] Kent Bye: So in the piece, there's a couple of moments where I'm asked a question. Can you hear me? I can hear you. And I'm invited to speak. And I spoke and then I didn't suspect that it was actually hearing me, but it was kind of like responding as if it were. So, yeah, there's these moments where you're asked to kind of engage in direct conversation and dialogue where I'm prompted with an opportunity to actually speak back. I'm wondering if you can elaborate on that a little bit.
[00:34:08.371] Alaa Al Minawi: Yeah, that's the part when I start engaging the audience. And I usually do this in many of the previous projects that I've done is at some point I stop and then I start asking them questions. And usually if there is another person next to you, they will hear your answer. Then you also get to know their answer and vice versa. So you start connecting people who are from the outside together so they know what's happening. So and that's a method that I like to use at some point and giving back things to the audience, if you like.
[00:34:37.250] Kent Bye: Because there's this moment where I'm asked, is the genocide still happening? You know, this kind of larger discussions of this imaginal world that you have in the wall, but it's very much connected to what's happening in the world right now. So I'm wondering if you could talk about, like, as you were developing this piece, you said you've been working on it for two years. And so there's obviously been a lot that's happened within the last year with the beginning. of this war in Gaza and so I'm wondering if you could elaborate the process of trying to integrate more of these references and points that you're having in this piece that are connected to what's happening in the world today.
[00:35:09.793] Alaa Al Minawi: Yeah, I mean it was a simple question but I think it meant everything because it's just a question, did it end? Because these people decided to go inside the wall and they don't know what's happening outside anymore. And then I left it to have the different layers of it. The person who's asking the question left because of the war, because of what they've seen, they decided they don't want to be part of this anymore, they don't want to be complicit, so they decided to go inside the war. And now they're asking you, did it end or not? It's a very charged question, I would say. Because when you answer no, then you know it's no. If it did finish, then we would know. But it's not about the yes or the no of it. It's about the emotion that comes with such a question. without being confrontational it's just asking did it end or not and it reminds people about realities in the world and I think that is very important most of my work is socio-political so it deals with socio-political issues or problems and I think one of our biggest problems now is an existing genocide and this is and you cannot not see this and you cannot not see the impact of this on the whole world from Canada to the United States to Britain to everywhere it's having an impact which is great because that shows that we are connected somehow also that gives some hope so yeah this is the choice of questions is usually of course later on I want to add more questions and to build up more towards and not necessarily all of them related to socio-political things but yeah
[00:36:37.717] Kent Bye: I know last year there was a lot of protests that were happening around ITFA as a festival with pro-Palestinian protests that were happening and then different censorship of that. And basically there was a lot of artists that then ended up pulling up their pieces from the festival. I just had a talk with Sister Sylvester and she elaborated a lot more details of what had happened because she was here last year with Shadow Time. And so, yeah, I'm not sure if you were aware of all that at the time or, you know, because this year IFA has done a lot more in terms of having sections in the selection around what's happening in Palestine. And there's a couple of pieces this year at DocLab that are explicitly addressing it in your piece as well as in Drinking Brecht that it's referenced here. And so, yeah, I'd love to, if you have any additional thoughts on the role of these cultural institutions and to either make these statements or not, or what's it going to take to kind of really shift the tides to bring about some change since you're obviously doing these work that have these political implications and how you foresee like what needs to happen after these pieces of art are presented and then what?
[00:37:43.806] Alaa Al Minawi: Yeah, I am aware of what happened last year and it was rightfully done because at the time it was less than a year since the genocide had started. And there were big questions about the role of cultural institutions all around the world, especially that a year before that year, Ukraine was the highlight. Ukrainian flags were lifted everywhere in all of the cultural institutions here in the Netherlands. Most of the festivals scheduled or rescheduled or reprogrammed their programs to focus on the Ukrainian-Russian war. from the ukrainian perspective but a year later you wouldn't see a palestinian flag you wouldn't see anyone talk well not anyone many of the institutions did talk some of them did not and there was a big big question is like why is it not talked about and why is it not highlighted it was very difficult to see this also as a palestinian to see that oh institutions are not that free as they think they are because when you don't speak out there's something that stops you from speaking or censors you from speaking out And I also understand that some institutions have a limit of what they can say and not say also, but they try their best. So I have a feeling that this year they did do a lot. And I think, of course, they didn't address it in a direct way, but like it's there. I mean, they created this. They distributed.
[00:39:03.352] Kent Bye: What is it that you're holding up? Maybe explain for listeners.
[00:39:06.994] Alaa Al Minawi: A pin. It was one of the pins that they made that people can get when they get their cards. And the pin has a watermelon on it. So that's Palestine. That's a reference to the Palestinian flag. That's a very known reference. The poster has a watermelon in it. So these are references that exist. There are Palestinian works. There is the relationship with the Palestinian Film Institute, I think they are presenting. My work is there. So there is more highlight on the Palestinian story to be told and more acknowledgement to the fact that there is a genocide happening. And that is appreciated. So working on change, yeah, you could see that big difference between last year and this year. But yeah, I mean, what I'm hoping is that institutions find ways to become more and more free in expressing themselves. Because if you're really not going to address genocide, regardless if it's Palestinian or any other genocide that might happen in the future, because accepting or hiding or not addressing a Palestinian genocide is is a green light to have other genocides and not addressing them in the world. The big problem, I think, the scariest part of what's happening in Palestine, that if this goes without accountability, this could inspire any dictator around the world to do it any place in the world. This is not the end of genocides. This could be the door that opens, and this is how World War II happened. One genocide, one genocide led to the other, led to the other, led to the other. So the absence of accountability might lead to that. Being silenced and being timid in expressing your refusal to genocide, is it that hard? It's not that hard, I guess. So yeah, these are big questions about the role of culture and arts in that sense. How free are they? And what value do they have when they cannot address one of the biggest issues that exist in the world? Yeah.
[00:41:01.212] Kent Bye: Yeah, just coming off of almost two weeks away from the U.S. elections and having a new conservative administration, there's a lot of fears around this back-slipping of democracy into these more authoritarian regimes in the U.S., supposed to be these beacons of democracy, of course, obviously funding a lot of what's happening with Israel and the war in Gaza. But what you're saying in terms of the speaking out, I'm connect to the Washington Post and the LA Times were prevented by their owners from writing an op-ed coming out in support for Harris. And so there's this author, I think his name's like Timothy Sullivan, but he wrote a book and all the things that you pay attention to as you're backsliding into authoritarianism is that you obey in advance. So through the silence, you're consenting and complicit into this empowerment of authoritarian regimes. So it seems like this issue that you're talking around, the lack of speaking out against it, just encouraging more and more of that around the world. But just connecting that to what's happening in the United States, specifically of some of these institutions of journalism and cultural institutions opting to obey in advance and to not speak out.
[00:42:12.711] Alaa Al Minawi: Yeah, I mean, for me, I mean, of course, I follow up the U.S. politics since many years because it has a direct impact on us in the Middle East. But for me, for example, one of the biggest problems of the Democrats before talking about Trump is that they lost their way. They went so much into it. They are the ones who are enabling the genocide by sending the weapons. It's not the Republicans who are doing that. It's Biden and his administration who made a conscious decision to do this full extremist very totalitarian support of the israeli regime without any balance without accountability and it's there and it's obvious and it's seen it's documented and it's on video and it's live stream so there is no way to deny it and then you have this spokesman this weird spokesman i forgot his name the spokesman of the the ministry of foreign affairs in the us who comes with smirky faces and talks about, oh, we cannot call it a genocide. Oh, it's not within our context to say Israel has done severe damage to civilians. What? So there is this kind of gaslighting, continuous gaslighting as a way of politics that the Democrats has followed and that led to their fall. It's not only the Palestinian, but I think this policy of gaslighting in the United States that the Democrats has followed really led to this. They made them lose the Senate, the Congress and the presidency. While on the other hand, you got this person who is Trump, who says, you know what, I'm clear. I'm very direct. I have nothing to hide. I want to be radical and I want to be extreme. And people like people who are honest. Even for me in the Middle East, now there are lots of discussions that I have with friends. It is better for us to have someone like Trump than have someone like Biden. to have someone who is a republican and extremist and right-wing who might lead to our own demise but direct about it then have a democrat who pretends that they are with human rights but then secretly have this double standards of funding while saying that oh they should not kill civilians but we're going to send them all the bombs that kill civilians no i prefer the one who is direct but also well both of them are genocidal but like at least having that is important it's very scary what's happening in the united states having someone who is right-wing that would bully. I mean, the idea of silencing voices, political voices or the press or freedoms, is through bullying. That's his approach usually. And now Elon Musk is with him. So the person who owns basically one of the biggest social media platforms, so now they can block and silence whoever they want to silence by calling them, I don't know, I mean, during the Democrats used to do fact-checking. And cancel voices based on fact-checking. We have to also be critical about that. Through fact-checking, Twitter canceled Donald Trump's account. Not one of the things. But through fact-checking, many people were canceled. And that we have to be critical about. Also, even if someone is lying, you can say they're lying, but do you need to cancel them? Do you need to really cancel them? On the other hand, Trump now could create laws that says, if you, I don't know, publicize gay rights, that would affect the children, and that's why we're going to ban you and cancel your account. So both of them are using the cancel culture in their own ways and their own benefits. We're going towards bipolarity in this world, and we're going towards really, really... But this starts with the war Russia-Ukraine, Russia-China, and the West. It's splitting. And this split is happening between the West and the East, but this split is going to keep on going with the West itself, between who wants to be democratic, who wants to be free, but between who wants to be authoritarian. In Europe, it's going crazy. We have crazier and crazier people also.
[00:46:00.501] Kent Bye: Yeah, thank you. Thank you for elaborating on that. Lots of really great elaborations on all of what's happening in the world today. So very much appreciate that. And yeah, I guess as we start to wrap up, I'd love to hear what you think the ultimate potential of immersive art and immersive media might be and what it might be able to enable.
[00:46:18.399] Alaa Al Minawi: I think people, because of the new technologies that we are having, we're getting more and more immersive. We're immersed in our own phones, right? On Instagram. If you are a person who has Instagram, you're totally sucked in into this world. So theater and immersive experiences become very important. And theater would have engagement of the audience becomes important because this is the way of life now. If I'm not immersed in something, fully immersed, I don't feel connected to it somehow. So it is just really became organic to create such kind of works. And I have a feeling, well, the worry is AI, of course, and what it can do. But I feel this is what's going to happen in the future. How engaged would the audience be and immersed, let's say. Great.
[00:47:05.167] Kent Bye: Is there anything else that's left unsaid that you'd like to say to the broader immersive community?
[00:47:12.160] Alaa Al Minawi: I don't know. I mean, it's a very, very weird times that we're living, but we need to give hope to ourselves and we give hope to others. And for people who are growing up, so fresh graduates who are starting theater, I always think of Gen Z, I mean, and now there's Gen Alpha also, but like these guys, they were born and the minute they were conscious, they were told two more degrees and the whole world, the temperature of the world will go two more degrees and we're gonna all die. I think we need to think different rhetoric that would give some agency, if not hope. Because no matter how much problems are happening in the world, how much injustice is happening in the world, emperors fell down and came up and another new empires came back. What stays is some human decency to keep on.
[00:48:05.760] Kent Bye: Awesome. Well, Allah, thanks so much for joining me today to break down a little bit more your journey into the space and also the creation of the liminal. I think you're really exploring lots of really interesting and vitally important topics through the immersive art, but also this kind of Arab futurism ideas and blending the fiction and blending the reality in a way that's really quite provocative and moving. Like I didn't mention, but I think it's worth mentioning that at the end where you have everybody... start singing it brought me to tears in a number of times as i was going through it multiple times just really um i don't know there's something around that the way that you end that piece that's really quite provocative and moving and overall just really loved it and uh yeah thanks again for joining me here on the podcast to help break it all down
[00:48:48.083] Alaa Al Minawi: Thank you. Thanks for the interview. I really enjoyed the talk.
[00:48:52.067] Kent Bye: Thanks again for listening to the Voices of VR podcast. And I really would encourage you to consider supporting the work that I'm doing here at the Voices of VR. It's been over a decade now, and I've published over 1,500 interviews. And all of them are freely available on the VoicesofVR.com website with transcripts available. This is just a huge repository of oral history, and I'd love to continue to expand out and to continue to cover what's happening in the industry, but I've also got over a thousand interviews in my backlog as well. So lots of stuff to dig into in terms of the historical development of the medium of virtual and augmented reality and these different structures and forms of immersive storytelling. So please do consider becoming a member at patreon.com slash voices of VR. Thanks for listening.
