On January 10th, Ana Brzezińska was announced to be the new Immersive Curator of the Tribeca Film Festival, and I had a chance to speak to her before this announcement to do a retrospective of her time that she spent as Kaleidoscope VR’s Head of Studio, Producer, and Curator of 16-19 virtual events, many of them during the pandemic. Today the 21 XR projects selected for the Tribeca Film Festival 2022 program have been announced, but I will be following up with Ana later as more information is announced on their virtual and hybrid festival plans as well as to do a deep dive into their program.
This conversation documents Brzezińska’s journey into VR, and the work that she did with Kaleidoscope VR working in collaboration with the Museum of Other Realities. But also a reflection of what she’s finding interesting at this moment in time regarding the future of immersive storytelling, the bridging of the digital and the physical, as well as other cultural and artistic trends that she’s tracking.
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Music: Fatality
Rough Transcript
[00:00:05.452] Kent Bye: The Voices of VR Podcast. Hello, my name is Kent Bye and welcome to The Voices of VR Podcast. So today's episode is featuring Anna Brzezinska, who happens to be the new immersive curator for the Tribeca Film Festival, and 20 projects are going to be featured at the 2022 edition are being announced. However, I'm not going to be diving deep into the program just yet because there's more information to come and I'm going to be doing a full deep dive with Anna about this year's program that's going to be happening from June 10th to 19th in New York City. But this conversation I actually had with Anna before it was announced that she's the new Immersive Curator at Tribeca to do a retrospective of the work that she did with Kaleidoscope VR. Kaleidoscope was started by Rene Pannell, and it was started with a film festival that was showing different XR pieces and then pivoted into doing more Artists funding and being able to fund different artists and then in February of 2021 some funding aspects of kaleidoscope was split off into artisan fund and then the kaleidoscope started to do more virtual production type of stuff with the onset of the pandemic they ended up producing anywhere from like 16 to 19 different virtual events a lot of them with the Museum of other realities and Anna was the creative producer involved with a lot of production of those virtual events. I wanted to do a retrospective of her work that she was doing there at Kaleidoscope VR. Now, within April of 2022, Kaleidoscope has been completely shut down and all the existing funding stuff is going to be happening with Artisan. Rene is going to be going on to continue to do the work that he's been doing with the XR community there, but deprecating their Web 2 social media platform and then moving into more Web 3 type of stuff. Evolving process but this is a bit of a retrospective of the work that Anna was doing with Kaleidoscope VR and doing all those different virtual events and also her Role as a curator to get a little bit of an insight as to what she's thinking about as she's moving into this new role as the immersive creator at Tribeca So that's what we're coming on today's episode of the voices of VR podcast so this interview with Anna happened on Monday December 20th 2021 so with that let's go ahead and dive right in and
[00:02:16.518] Ana Brzezinska: My name is Anna Brzezinska and I am a curator and producer of immersive stories, immersive content, immersive experiences. It's so difficult to find the right words to describe, you know, what type of content we deal with, right? But yes, but this is my primary field of interest currently. And I used to work in, I would say, many different creative sectors for a number of years. I started as a theater person. I graduated from Theater Academy. I was supposed to be a theater director. And it was something that was kind of a natural choice for me because, I mean, most of my family members were working in performing arts, you know, for generations. But then I moved to working for major broadcasters. I used to live in Poland back then and I used to work for a news channel and then I started to do proper TV shows and I was responsible for that as a director and producer. I was involved with the documentary filmmaking for a while. I made a couple of things myself. And there was this moment when I discovered that there's this whole new realm of different types of media, different forms of storytelling. And that was the aha moment for me. I realized that there's so much more we can do. And there was this intuition I had saying like, well, maybe there will be a place one day where we will be able to have it all, right? And I think that this is something that probably is the most exciting part of spatial art and spatial storytelling, because you have this feeling that this is exactly the place where you can have it all, and we just need to figure it out.
[00:03:59.606] Kent Bye: Yeah. And I'm wondering if you could share a little bit more context as your journey into VR, like that transition from that background of that theatrical, and it sounds like you're in that entertainment space, but when was either the emerging technologies of virtual and augmented reality, when that started to come into the picture for you?
[00:04:14.718] Ana Brzezinska: Right. Well, I started as a creator. My background is I was a maker. I used to be a director. I used to direct shows and I used to direct flat screen content. And then I realized that there's this new tool where you can just bring people to the very bottom of your dreams. You know, you can create a world that has nothing to do with realism and you can make people just do things there and discover things that you weren't really able to tell them using any other medium before. And as funny as it sounds, I'm one of these people who will always say, yeah, well, the first thing for me was Notes on Blindness, and I fell in love with it. But it's true, and it was a very profound experience. I can still remember it. I saw it in a basement somewhere in Prague, and it was really an eye-opening experience. And I think that this is how I started to dream about what is it that you can create within a 3D environment. And I think the other thing that was really something that made me just leave everything I've been doing in the past was the kind of people I've met on my way. And everybody that I was fortunate enough to listen to or to talk to back in those early days, they were extraordinary people. And many of them are still in the industry now. And we were friends and we worked together or we know each other. And I was shocked to see that people who normally you would expect to have mind-blowing careers to be very successful and kind of established, areas of creative industries or entertainment, they just decided to just follow this intuition that there's something new ahead of us. And they left all the privileges and they just started to experiment with this new form. And the kindness and the openness of people I was meeting was something that made me think like, well, maybe it's worth a risk, maybe it's worth a try. And this is how it all started for me. I just started to, you know, follow people, read about it. I started to, you know, attend events. And sooner than later, I just realized it's something that I just want to make a part of my life.
[00:06:25.814] Kent Bye: Yeah, I first saw Notes and Blindness at Sundance 2016 at the New Frontier program. And I remember I first bought my Oculus Rift DK1 on January 1st, 2014, and Sundance was happening there where, you know, previously, I guess, Nani de la Peña had Hunger in LA at Sundance New Frontier in 2012, actually like using the VR headset that was made by Palmer Lucky, because the one at the time was too expensive to bring over. So, You know, from 2012, I don't know if there's anything really in 2013, but 2014, there's a number of projects that were immersive, but they're kind of added in the VR. So there's clouds and a number of different experiences that were there in 2014, 2015. I remember I didn't go to Sundance because I was covering the space of different. technology events, but I remember Upload VR, Will Mason, they were just getting started and they were talking about the different experiences that were there at Sundance. And I was like, oh my gosh, I have to go next year. So 2016 was the first year that I went and was able to see Notes on Blindness. What for me was already two years into seeing all the different types of experiences that were out there across the different types of games and whatnot. So I'm curious what happened for you after that, after you saw Notes on Blindness, then how did you get into the industry then?
[00:07:39.955] Ana Brzezinska: I remember very well, and this is an anecdote that I used to tell many people, that was more or less the same time, or maybe that was earlier, I saw Michel react speak at one of the media events, and it was the first time I saw him, and he was actually the trigger. He was the person who kind of made me think, okay, so this is real, because one thing is when you see a work of art, and it makes you feel amazing, don't really know how it's made or why is it that it makes you feel the way it does. But then you meet a person and this person tells you their story and tries to give you an understanding of what is this phenomenon, how it actually is related to everything we know, and what is the possible outcome of this revolution that's going to happen, and so on and so forth. And you could tell that he had things very well analyzed. He understood the process. He was putting this revolution in a certain context. And he was coming from a filmmaking industry and he had a background in dance. So he also was somebody who understand fully the potential, the fact that it's both spatial art, but it's also something that could be used to tell stories that can still remain linear and become really a compelling tool. to make people look at reality in a different way. So I think these two factors were something that, you know, notes and blindness was something that made my heart sing, you know, and listening to Michelle was something that made my mind start to think, all right, this makes sense. Now let's see, how can I become a part of that process? And so because at that time I used to work as a director, I was like, all right, I want to make my first experience. And this is how I started to work on something that was an experiment for me and something that I really wanted to test and try. And because I was developing it without really having any understanding of how things are actually getting made and how do you fund it, where do you find your allies, all this production process that now we more or less understand, it was a complete mystery for me back then. And so I was just experimenting with stuff. And as this was happening, I was meeting people, I was talking to them, I was looking at what was happening in the industry. I remember meeting Gabo Aurora, obviously seeing his works. That was still the time when we all had the conversation about the empathy machine. And then, you know, suddenly I realized, and I think this is also a very strong factor, you know, I started to read Jared Lanier's essays and texts and I kind of understood how this technology is deeply rooted in a certain philosophy of how we actually think about realities and how this technology is responding to our deepest need of being confronted with ourselves. And yeah, so I would say these were the moments that I remember that were unlocking certain new levels of understanding of what immersive media could be. But then just things started to happen very quickly. And then I met Rene, which was really a moment when things changed for me because we started to work together and it kind of brought me to where I am today. And I think that was probably you know, a game changing experience. And I definitely think that the fact that I started to work with Renee and that we became friends and I've met somebody who has been and still is, you know, a huge source of inspiration for me. I think it was something that that actually changed everything. And then I managed to, you know, quit my former job. I left my previous life and everything changed then.
[00:11:16.664] Kent Bye: Yeah, well, I want to dig into your time there with Rene at Kaleidoscope and then different things that you're working on there. But before we do that, I want to just touch on Michel Riak as someone that I met at Sundance New Frontier 2016. That was when he had his piece that was around the, it was kind of like a 360 video that immersed you into this world where there are all this kind of sexual polyamorous activities that were happening in a piece that was really quite provocative. And I'm wondering when you saw him speak, did you able to see his VR piece either before or after that?
[00:11:48.072] Ana Brzezinska: Oh, the moment when I saw him speak was far before he released the experience called Vien. So my perception of who he was, you know, he was introduced as former head of film at Arte, and he used to speak in a way, as much as I can remember, you know, he wasn't speaking as an artist, he was speaking as somebody who was running a huge film institution and who is looking at the process extremely holistically, you know. So he was speaking in a way that could resonate with producers, curators, creators, but also art critics. the way he was describing it was very multi-layered and very multi-dimensional. And I think that's why it was so exciting to listen to him, because you had a feeling that somebody is giving you a 360 overview of something that is a brand new phenomenon. that is not really there yet, right? That is something that's only about to occur to us, that we're only about to start to understand. Yeah, but that was way before he released the experience you mentioned.
[00:12:57.044] Kent Bye: Okay. Yeah. So that was probably even before you saw Notes on Blindness then.
[00:13:00.189] Ana Brzezinska: I think so, yeah, because, you know, it was actually the time when we were somewhere in between the period of so-called transmedia projects. So there was this huge moment, a couple of years at least, you know, it was something that in Europe was very present because of the strength of the public funding and public broadcasters. But you had, you know, a huge wave of amazing web docs, amazing web projects that were interactive more or less, but, you know, there were mainly using web browsers as their distribution platforms. The moment when Michel was delivering that talk was somewhere in between the golden era of transmedia and the beginning of VR. VR was already there, but it was only really something that he was mentioning as something that only begins to develop as an independent art medium. So that was also an interesting time because we tend to forget that there was this, it was at least five to 10 years when interactive media were celebrated across festivals and different sorts of events. I remember that we had the amazing curation of these forms at IDFA, there was Power to the Pixel. It was a completely different moment in time compared to how we think about it today.
[00:14:15.246] Kent Bye: Yeah, I know Michel's gone on and, you know, he's helped to start and co-curate the Venice Film Festival VR expanded selections for a number of years now with Liz Rosenthal. And with that, they've been able to really put the VR in the same level of film at the Venice Film Festival. So they get the same reward. A lot of the other festivals still have it as a special section, not at the same level of even getting awards, but hopefully that changes at some point to see more recognition of this emerging media into a new categories. But I'm curious because for me, I started going at the Sundance 2016, New Frontier, and eventually then to the South by Southwest, the Tribeca Film Festival, there's the Venice Film Festival, the Doc Lab, I happened to go at the Doc Lab at 2018, 2019. And then, you know, since then, there's been all these remote festivals, and actually just finished a series of doing interviews about the 15th anniversary of the doc lab and specifically of looking at a lot of the different creators of the years. And so that'll be a series of different makers that have been through that evolution of this moving into new media, transmedia, into these immersive storytelling, experiential media transition. But I'm curious for you, at what point did you start to go into some of these festivals to see the work that's been created? Because, you know, oftentimes in order to be fluent and all this stuff, you have to actually, you know, see the work. And that usually means traveling to these different places to actually see the pieces.
[00:15:37.866] Ana Brzezinska: Right. I started with documentary festivals because it was easier for me because I was attached to the filmmaking industry and I could allow myself to go there. And in the beginning it was funny because I was pretending that I was going to attend an actual film festival and that this is my primary reason why I'm going there. But then eventually I was actually going there because I was curious to see what's happening in the immersive slash interactive media section. So that was kind of a funny thing. Yeah, but that was also something that wasn't really easy for me back then. First of all, I was coming from a country where there was no market for any sorts of immersive slash interactive activities. So not only you wouldn't have financing for content production, but you didn't really have the culture of creating delegations or supporting people who wanted to explore that further or engage in events and activities abroad. So I was forced to deal with all these challenges myself and I was a freelance director slash producer. So it wasn't that obvious for me to just jump on a plane and travel 10,000 kilometers to see a VR experience that I was interested in or I was reading about because I think what was really very important was that you could really get a lot of insights and information just by spending hours and hours and hours online. And I think that was kind of the beginning also of a culture that we see really blooming now when people were forced to stay at home, but they still wanted to connect and they still wanted to know what's going on. and they create communities that are fully digital. But for me, that experience was happening because I had no other option. If I wanted to know who's doing what and why is it exciting to see their work, I kind of needed to find different ways to hack the system. So that was something that was also like, I think it was an important part of the whole process because a lot of people from my industry, from people who used to work in television or who used to work in the filmmaking industry, they would say like, why would you waste your money and your time going places and just trying to discover something that is, there's not even a business model for that. Like, why would you even invest in that? So that was something that was an important part of the experience because today we can say, well, it was worth it. And we know that it's worth it on many different levels because not only we have a thriving community and we have a lot of things to share and there's you know, a huge amount of content that was created in the past 10 years. And there's this whole digital heritage that we can already refer to and think about next steps and so on and so forth. And then, you know, there are business models that are apparently working because the industry is still young, but it's already very dynamic and it's developing fairly well. So I think that's also something that comes to mind when I think about this arc, this journey from a place where there was no interest in experimenting with immersive media, there was no funding to actually make it or go see it. And then to a place where this is something that's like an undeniable part of the creative landscape.
[00:19:02.236] Kent Bye: Yeah. And you mentioned that you had been doing some producing or some curating. Were there other events that you were producing leading up to the time that you started to collaborate more closely with Renee?
[00:19:12.484] Ana Brzezinska: Yeah. I produced three or four events that were dedicated to immersive media in Poland and Warsaw before I left my country. And when I was still working full-time in public institutions there, I used to work with a film center that gave me really a carte blanche to curate and produce my own events. So I did two editions of an event that was called New Visions of Reality. And there was a small showcase of like four, five titles. And there was a huge, given the circumstances, a very vicious conference program. Because what I was trying to achieve was that I really wanted to create a place in Warsaw that would work a little bit like an embassy of international immersive industry for those who couldn't travel. So, you know, I was trying to reconnect with my own experience from the past. And I knew that there were people in my region who couldn't really have the luxury to just go and travel and see immersive experiences at festivals, but also they didn't have the luxury to just meet people face to face. And my goal was to create an event that would happen annually that would bring people a glimpse of what was happening this specific season or this specific year. And then, you know, invite some of the best names from the industry to Warsaw to speak about the work, to network with people, but also to showcase content. So, you know, I started off by inviting Marshmallow Laser Face and a couple of other projects that I really loved. And I was working with public funds as well. So I would read applications coming from emerging creators and trying to make sure that they get funded both in Poland, but also in the European Union. So that was something I was very much involved with. So it was a lot of projects coming through my hands. because I was reading all these proposals and applications and I would say independent curators slash project consultants when I was already working with Rene. So that was something I was doing for a long time. And yeah, and before then I was involved in development and production of a couple of interactive pieces for institutions in Warsaw. I worked with the National Opera. We were developing interactive content for children. So there was a number of different types of creative engagements that helped me to understand the process, the genre, the issues that need to be addressed within the production process. And, you know, I was really trying to build something that would fill the gap that I really felt that was very, very present. Unfortunately, there were political changes that took place that kind of stopped me from continuing this. The institution I work with wouldn't receive any more public support. A lot of projects that I was involved in, they wouldn't get support from the ministry or from public institutions. So it kind of brought this whole effort to a natural end. I really hope that, you know, one day this situation will change and maybe somebody else will continue. But so far, sadly, it's not really happening. But then also I had a chance to work with the Creative Europe team and we created an online event already during the pandemic period. that was on one hand dedicated to immersive media and museums. On the other hand, it was dedicated to immersive media in the performing arts sector. So that was also a pretty exciting event to create. Unfortunately, we didn't have a chance to create a showcase or an in-person exhibition because that was already happening during the full lockdown period. So yes.
[00:23:01.945] Kent Bye: Yeah. And so I guess as you start to move into work and work closely with Rene Pinel and what was at the time, the Kaleidoscope VR, where, you know, he had kind of done a little bit of curation of these different pieces and did a little bit of a tour. And through that process, he was talking to artists and creators and, you know, asking what they needed and for them, they needed money and funding. And that was like the biggest need for this work to be made was to actually have a mechanism by which that they could actually fund these things. There was the Kaleidoscope that had launched the network of these artists and then eventually transitioned into the Artisan Fund, which was more specifically into the funding of the artists. But then the Kaleidoscope kind of morphed in its mission in producing and also curating. And so maybe you could talk about your journey starting at Kaleidoscope and what you were doing and working more closely with Renee and how that unfolded and everything that you were personally working on there.
[00:23:55.537] Ana Brzezinska: Yeah. Well, I first learned about Kaleidoscope long before I met Vinay and before I joined him as his closest collaborator. And I remember for a long time, it was a very mysterious company for me. I couldn't really understand how it works and there were so many questions around it. And I remember that also people I spoke with, they couldn't really tell me like, so how does this thing work? Is it a fund? Is it whatever? And I'm mentioning that because I think that the legacy of Kaleidoscope and what Rene and Selena and Ruben created is something much more than the fact that they were providing financial support to creators. I think because the structure for funding and the structure and the tools for building your budget, they are developing in time and there will be there. I mean, we will have ways for creators to finance their work. But I think what they've done before these models actually occurred is that they established a community and they established a certain way of how people should communicate and how people should support each other. And anyone who knows Rene and anyone who ever had any professional relationship with him knows that he is an extremely kind and enthusiastic person. And he's always driven by this goal to give you a solution to help you achieve what you currently want to achieve. This is what I actually learned from him. It's something that I think everybody is getting from him. This is something that creates a process that in time establishes a certain standard within the community. I think this is the true legacy of Kaleidoscope. I'm sure that René is going to be developing structures that will help creators fundraise and earn their living with what they do as artists. I'm sure he's going to do it because this is a lifelong mission, and I'm sure that he's always going to be trying to find new ways to answer this need, and this is definitely what he's doing very well. But I think that we shouldn't really forget that there's so much more than that in the way you handle situations, the way you talk to people, the way you offer them support, even when you cannot actually offer them money. This is what I was always trying to do when we were working together, whenever we were engaging in events, whether we were producing them or co-curating them, or whether we were just attending as guests or so-called experts. What we always try to do, and this is what I always do, is we're always trying to find something to share. We always want to give something to people. You don't want to end up a conversation with a creator without making sure that this person got something tangible from that meeting. And I think as long as we're capable of doing that, it means that we're still necessary and that our work makes sense.
[00:26:53.285] Kent Bye: Yeah. And so maybe take me back to the original context in which that you came to collaborate with Renee. Was he hiring for a role or what was your pitch to him or what was your job title when you started to actually work more closely with him?
[00:27:07.733] Ana Brzezinska: Right. Well, I think it was really a very fortunate coincidence because we met in Cannes. I remember that there was a year, and please forgive me, I don't know if it was three or four years ago. I never remember when things happened. I remember that Elie LaVasseur was creating CanneXR. There was a marketplace and there was this gathering of our community. I went to Cannes and when I was there and I met him and I immediately knew that, you know, he's the kind of person I would love to work with. It's just that there was really no opportunity back then because he wasn't hiring. And I still was kind of thinking that, you know, I was trying to figure out how I actually should divide my time between producing and engaging in events as a curator and being a creator myself. So I was really focused on trying to save my creative career. But because when I spoke to him, I realized how many things you could do, you know, how many possibilities there are and how many things you can actually do together. And I just got super excited about it. And I think we spoke about it and we had a conversation that, yes, well, maybe one day we will work together, you know, we'll find a way. And I think what happened was that a couple of months or a year or two years after we were still in touch, I was consulting small things here and there. I was trying to be as engaged in the Kaleidoscope activities as possible, just like many people would. And there was a moment when Rene couldn't really travel as much as he used to because his family situation changed. He had a son, he was taken care of many hours a day, and he would just ask me, like, can you attend this or this event for me? And I said, yes, of course, you know, I'll be very happy to represent you, you know. And this is how it started. And then the moment when we really started to collaborate like full time, it was just before the pandemic hit. I remember that we were curating an event in Australia. We were invited by Mark Atkin and Tom Millen to Adelaide for the Electric Dreams Festival. And we were hosting a showcase of immersive projects and development that were tackling climate change and climate change related issues. And I went there and it was actually the last time I traveled because when I was coming back, COVID was already kind of present. And that was exactly the moment when we also had a conversation about establishing a partnership with the Museum of Other Realities. But back then, the reason behind it was because we had a conversation during this event that we cannot fly so much anymore. We cannot really allow ourselves to create this huge carbon footprint. because we want to see our friends and our collaborators in different parts of the world. And we wanted to start creating events in the Museum of Other Realities because we thought that that would be the best answer to try to minimize the negative impact of our international travels. we really didn't know that this would become something we would then do for two years in a row. And we created 19 events. I think the number of exhibitions that we produced with the Museum of Other Realities during the entire pandemic period is probably 15 or 16 showcases and exhibitions. So that's a huge number, especially when you think that we really have a very, very small team. and some of us never met in real life. We were working remotely from day one, and we managed to build a system that kind of enabled us to experiment with what is actually an immersive virtual arts showcase. How do you create this? How do you stage these pieces? How do you make this exciting and available for a longer period than just a time when, for example, an experience is showcased at a festival? So all these questions were around when we've been working together with the Museum of Other Realities.
[00:31:15.677] Kent Bye: Okay. Yeah. And so there's a number of different events that were happening within Museum of the Realities. You mentioned, you know, anywhere from 16 to 19 that you were involved with over the last number of years. And I've had an opportunity to attend a number of those, maybe not all of them, but there's everything from like a fashion show to, you know, the different film festivals from Tribeca and the ConXR and the Vancouver International Film Festival. And so, you know, maybe you could talk about like what your role was when those different events were happening and what you were doing as either being a producer liaison, or if there are other curatorial aspects that were a part of that as well for you.
[00:31:51.791] Ana Brzezinska: Sure. So I think that there were different types of events that we're actually creating with the Museum of Other Realities team. And the most exciting part of it is that every single event we created was different. So I was the lead producer. I was responsible for the entire production process, but because I was also involved creatively, and I would also advise or suggest curatorial ideas and decisions to our partners and clients, I was really privileged to have a very profound and ongoing contact with all the creators, all the studios, and everybody who was really a part of this process. And we were really lucky because most of our partners and clients were approaching this in a very collaborative, very co-creative way. So we were obviously a team that was supposed to deliver something that was a project that was conceived within a certain team or a certain company, but we always had a way of introducing new ideas to our partners. And luckily they would always respect and listen and be open to what was coming from us. So I think you have these different types of events. One, of course, that was something that was a fundament of our activity in the past two years, were virtual festivals. So as you mentioned, we collaborated with festivals like Cannes or Trobeka or Vancouver Film Festival. And for each of these festivals, we were trying to create something slightly different. Obviously, here, the core goal was to present new content. So it was less about creating a really mind-blowing or very intriguing space. It was really about making sure that we create the right environment for creators to premiere and to feel that everybody's treated equally, that the whole focus is on the new artworks. So that's one thing. And another thing was something like the Immersive Arcade, which was a collection we created with Digital Catapult. And we actually worked with Digital Catapult for over 10 months. It was a really amazing adventure and a very, you know, it was an extraordinary collaboration because not only we had a chance to work really closely with creators who were a part of the Immersive Arcade, because they were creating their own spaces. They were creating these huge exhibition rooms. that would be filled with bits and pieces of their story worlds. And that was something that was custom designed with those creators by the Museum of Other Realities team and approved by Digital Catapult, who introduced the lineup in the first place. So we really were very excited about that. And when I say we, I mean my closest collaborator, Robin Statham, who is the CEO and co-founder of The Moor, And who is a crazy talented designer, we were having these conversations so how can we create right environments for these experiences to live for you know a couple of months. How can we make these places, engaging for people but also how we can make them still relatively. humble, because we don't want to compete with the piece. And we also want to make sure that because it's a social space, people will have the right environment just to socialize and talk and contemplate the conversation they would have with each other. So this is just to give you an idea of how we were thinking about this specific exhibition. And then you had projects like the Fabric of Reality that we did with the Riot Studio in London, which was something that was yet another type of experience because it was a collection of free installations that were created from scratch. it was a commission, it was something that we were creative producers of that experience, so we were involved in the creative process with teams, but we were also really there to make sure that they feel comfortable, that they feel safe, that they have everything they need, and that they can create something that does justice to their vision and ideas within a very short time frame, and in a very difficult context because all our collaborators were in different countries, They never met physically in the real world. They only had three months to deliver a compelling interactive piece. So that was really something we knew that was a huge challenge for them. So our job was really just to be there for them, to support them every step of the way, and to make sure that everybody feels comfortable with the final result. So these were very different types of events, and each and every single one of them is a completely different story.
[00:36:33.835] Kent Bye: Yeah, and there's also the Quills Fest, which just happened as well, which I think is another unique event working with the Oregon Shakespeare Festival that was able to connect these different artists to be able to do commissions and make work.
[00:36:44.729] Ana Brzezinska: Right. Well, I think the luxury of working with the Oregon Shakespeare Festival was, again, the fact that they were very open to our suggestions in terms of how we should approach this particular event. We knew from day one that there was never a virtual event dedicated to the cross-section of performing arts and immersive art that would happen solely in VR, that would include original commissions, that would be a real-time event. And then that would also be available for online users that have no access to VR headset and so on and so forth. So there was a couple of things that we knew we needed to face. There was a similarity between Quills and the Fabric of Reality project in terms of the fact that we were asked to recommend immersive creators from our community. that would be then paired with creators coming from the partner side for the Yahoo project. These were fashion designers here for Quells Fest. These were creators working within the performing arts ecosystem. So our job was to become matchmakers to create these creative teams that would then embark on a journey for three, four months. working together, creating something that is an original commission, and then making sure that this is also something that happens in a collaborative, respectful, co-creative manner. So although the result of these two events was on an artistic level completely different, I would say the method behind was kind of similar. And yes, and for Quell's Fest, there was also one more very exciting question we were asked, and I was really curious to see if what we suggested would work, and I think it did, was that you have all these amazing projects that were created somewhere between VR and theater or VR and opera, And you cannot really recreate them easily. You cannot show them, you cannot just see them, or this is something that requires a huge team, or you have to travel, or you have to see it in a physical environment. So we were trying to see how can we celebrate those projects in VR without showing the actual piece. And this is how we came up with the concept of this exhibition, where you would have four rooms presenting something that we called an atelier of the artist. So there was Keira Benzing's Pandora, there was Dazzle, there was the POV by Alton Glass Experience, there was the Finnish opera called Laila. And we were trying to create immersive spaces that bring you somewhere on the outskirts of the world that was created for this specific piece. You wouldn't see the actual experience because that was impossible from a technological and production standpoint, but you would have this sensation, a little bit as if you were kind of wandering in a theater and you would just step inside an atelier of someone who was involved in creating the costumes or the sets, or you would just kind of wander around the scene and just see how things look when performers are not there. So I had that memory from my childhood when I used to spend long hours in theaters because my parents worked in the theater. And I just remember that sensation of hanging around the building and you just would like see what was happening here and there. And you would create these stories inside your head based on what you see. you know, there was no performance, there was no actual show to see. So that was kind of the concept behind the Quills exhibition. And then again, you had these amazing commissions that were created by teams of artists that we brought together. And I know that some of these experiences will probably live on, because sometimes there's this magical moment when we really bring the right people together and they say like, yeah, we want to continue on working together. We want to make sure that this is something that's going to develop further. And I know that some of these experiences probably will be further produced. And I hope to see them, you know, somewhere on one of the festivals pretty soon.
[00:41:04.294] Kent Bye: So as you were mentioning the different stuff at the Museum of Other Realities, I've had a chance to attend a lot of those different events. Do you remember what was the original event?
[00:41:13.508] Ana Brzezinska: Yeah, I do. So the first festival that we hosted in the museum was VRAM.
[00:41:20.402] Kent Bye: Oh, right.
[00:41:21.022] Ana Brzezinska: Yeah, that's right. It was the festival that was curated by Ulrich Schraut and they were the first team to actually work with us. It's so funny because it wasn't that long ago, but when you think about how much we learned and how many things changed, it feels like it was 10 years ago. So we worked with Ulrich and with his team in Hamburg and we created a virtual version of an in-person event that for obvious reasons was cancelled. And I have to say that, you know, it was really a magnificent experience because Ulrich was so patient, knowing that this is a first ever virtual festival and that none of us has ever done this before. And nobody in the industry had ever done this before. So he was really extraordinary in how he approached the challenge and how mature he was in his leadership. I remember that there were questions arising every day. There was a lot of stressful moments, but we managed to deliver that event. And I think that, you know, everything that happened afterwards, and I think straight after that, we got to working with Khan and Tribeca, then we started to work with other partners. But it was already a different experience because it was something that was already happening in a way that we could understand better. And we had much more control over the entire process.
[00:42:51.467] Kent Bye: Yeah, I was just going to say, because I remember attending that and talking to Erlich the second year that he did that, but not the first year, because it was the middle of the pandemic and everything was still in flux and just even how I was doing my coverage remotely was still developing. But when you go to a film festival already, there's a way that they present things with installations where you're able to maybe step into a little bit of the magic circle before you go into the experience. And I feel like there is a part of trying to recreate that installation aspect to it, either creating some sort of virtual object that would be symbolic representation, um, or like more akin to some of those installations that you would see at a film festival that would walk into a room and you see this art that was setting the scene or setting the context that, you know, starting to establish that magic circle before you actually step into the experience. But with the Museum of Other Realities, you're also walking into a museum. And so it's setting a larger context. So then within that larger context, then you have the smaller context nested within that to go into those installations. And then from there to launch into an actual downloadable experience or a 360 video that's being shown. So to kind of have that seamless experience of going into a singular space, but then have a portals into these other realities is what I think of is like the closest thing to like the metaverse type of experience of like going from one place to the next with a shared context and a shared experience that was all self-contained and curated that was mimicking what the film festival experience was, but translated into VR. And doing these other things, we were able to use the affordances of VR to really change the entire space to start to do that installation aspect rather than just a smaller installation. And so I've seen that as a progression over time where It's like taking that ideas of those installations and expanding them out in both the spaces and the worlds. But that seems to be a pretty key experiential part of what I've had with these different festivals of museum of other realities is the ability to set those contexts and to give me access to all these variety of experiences that I would normally see when I would go to the film festivals, but are able to explore in the comfort of my own home.
[00:44:53.449] Ana Brzezinska: I think there's a couple of things that you mentioned that are important here. One is that I personally think that the Museum of Other Realities is really the most inspiring and statically compelling virtual reality platform that exists. And with that comes a couple of things that are exciting for curators and for creators. because the nature of this environment is really giving you a lot of space and a lot of tools to play with. But on the other hand, there's a couple of things that you know that might not work as well as you would expect in a real physical environment. And, you know, it's always every curator's decision and every producer's decision how they want to design their event or how they want their audiences to explore it or how they want them to feel eventually. But I think that, as you say, the more it gives people an opportunity to forget about everything they learned in real life. And I think the fact that you're not copying rules and structures and behaviors that are native to an in real life environment is what makes this space unique and special. So that's one thing. Another thing is that it does give you a possibility of traveling between different dimensions, between different ways of experiencing the physical material world around you. It also gives you a lot of opportunities to use sound with that and interactivity. And the only thing that is still difficult, and I think this is something that comes with the nature of this technology, is that you have to be super flexible. There's always a risk that things will go wrong. There's always a risk that the way you plan things will not work. And it's not because somebody doesn't want to meet your expectations, it's because this is the nature of working with an experimental technology in a real-time social multiplayer environment. But having said that, I think that, at least this is my personal experience, I think that we're still nowhere near understanding of what is really possible in virtual environments when we think about art curation. I think we still try to reproduce models that we know and that feel safe, but I think it doesn't necessarily mean that it's going to bring us any further in the way we think about how art and metaverse should look like or feel like. I think there is a lot to learn from the crypto art community. And when I'm saying that, I'm not speaking about the whole financial context. This is something I'm, as weird as it sounds, I'm not interested in that part. I have a background in art history. And what I'm interested in is to understand what this artistic movement is telling us about the moment in time and history, and what type of art do we want to create? What type of art do we feel is necessary? And what type of environments and worlds we want to build? And I think this is a very interesting question. It's probably a beginning of a completely new and separate conversation. But because the crypto art movement is so radical aesthetically, it's so absolutely mind-blowing sometimes when you think about how creators approach what do they understand even as art. I think this is really the only avant-garde we're going to have. I think it's the last avant-garde we're probably looking at. I don't think we'll have so much more time to create another one. And I think that we've been waiting for so long to see one actually arise that people didn't really realize yet that this is it. This is the avant-garde we've been all waiting for for at least 100 years. So I think we have to learn this lesson from both these areas, from both these parts of digital art stage. and try to see where this brings us. This is actually what I'm excited about. This is what I want to do. I want to see these two currents meet and I want to see the ocean. What is it that it's going to look like? How is it that we're going to behave and feel once we're in? Personally, this is the lesson I got from working with the Moor because Although I have been producing these events and I've been involved sometimes as a curator or as a creative producer, the real outcome of these two years for me is that it changed the way I think about virtual worlds at large. And it's a great thing to have.
[00:49:47.218] Kent Bye: So I guess what's next for you after you've done all of this, you've learned all these lessons. So what are you up to next then?
[00:49:54.763] Ana Brzezinska: Well, I think that after spending almost three years with Rene and with the community that he built and that he established, it's probably a good moment to try to invent something new. This is what actually I am interested in and this is what actually brought us together. I think the reason why we've been enjoying this collaboration is because we are constantly interested in inventing new solutions, new ideas, new ways of approaching things that we believe are important here and now. And because this industry is so dynamic, every season you have at least 10 new things you want to explore and you want to engage your time and energy and understanding that. So what I'm particularly interested in, and I'm very lucky to have that opportunity, is to see how we can further develop a creative relationship between virtual worlds and the physical reality, and how we can make sure that there is this bridge between these two worlds that helps people who are not in our industry yet. to really get the magic of what's possible in immersive art. And I also want immersive creators to understand that there's still so much to be discovered and I want to help them to discover that. And I want to keep on creating bridges between people and between people and companies and between people and institutions and so on and so forth. so that we can see really compelling, outstanding new experiences, new platforms, new events, things that make us feel that we're still in a moment where everything's possible. This is something I want to do. And because I have this opportunity that I can be many different things. I mean, the way I lived my life forced me to be able to do many different things. And today I see it as a benefit. In the past, I thought that it was actually something that I had to do and I wasn't really happy about it. But now I think that this is my superpower because I can produce, I can curate, I can create, and I can truly support people who need somebody on their way. to guide them through moments of doubt or moments when they need answers or support, whether they start their journey or whether they already have something they want to show to the world.
[00:52:35.407] Kent Bye: Yeah, one of the things that it reminds me of is just this past couple of years of starting in 2016 when I would go to these festivals and see these works. But with the pandemic, there's been this movement in large part, thanks to the early phases of the Museum of the Realities with the virtual Hamburg and the Connexar and Tribeca of still having to be in the comfort of my own home and still see these works. And then as we've gone through that, more and more festivals doing that. And then as Sundance is coming up, still having another opportunity to see those works remotely without having to travel to Park City and all the Scots and all the expenses of doing that, but also the ecological impact, as you mentioned, the electric South and all the impacts of the carbon footprint of traveling like that. But it also reminds me of your early days of being in Poland and not having access to a lot of this work, but how now we're at a phase of making it more accessible for a wider audience. it's been a forcing function to have to make things more accessible in a ways that weren't as a necessity before, but now are a necessity. And then because of that, everybody benefits, but you have this tension between what can happen in a physical co-located space and what can happen within a virtually mediated space and what can only happen in each of those uniquely, and then seeing where those intersections are. So it sounds like that's kind of a rich area, but For me, the accessibility thing is something that comes to mind, not only from my own experience over the last couple of years and the enjoying the different selections of work that you've helped to produce, but also in the context of, you know, your own journey into this space and what things might've been like if they would have done this from the very beginning. or what kind of opportunities that's creating for people who don't live in these major metropolitan areas around the world, who have had access to these experiences, whereas before they would have never been able to have the means or resources to see it. But if they have a VR headset and a PC, they're enabled to have access to these really cutting edge, avant-garde pieces of immersive storytelling.
[00:54:27.908] Ana Brzezinska: Absolutely. And I think this is something that we need to defend. I think we really need to make sure that hybrid editions of festivals and events, you know, stay with us, that we have access to experiences that premiere every year and that there are multiple opportunities to see content and to hear creators speak about it, to get to know them, even if it's only, you know, virtually. Because, you know, I think that we often hear people saying accessibility is very important to us and we really want to make sure. But then when we say it, we don't really understand who is the audience behind this accessibility checkbox, you know, and it's people like me, you know, in the past and maybe even now. And I think there's so many amazing talent that we can bring to our industry. people who really don't have the opportunity to become a part of it because, as you mentioned, they cannot travel, they cannot afford it, this is too difficult, there are political obstacles, there's a number of reasons. I've been particularly excited about talking to creators who are coming from countries or territories or areas in the world that we don't see that often. on the market. And I just came back from IDFA and I was in Geneva before then. And I'm really happy to see there's, for example, you have this whole new wave of creators coming from South America, you have creators coming from Colombia, amazingly talented people with great stories, with, I would say, a very special kind of energy and determination, which we don't see that often, you know, when we look at Western creators, so to speak. And I think that I would love to see this happen more often in virtual worlds. We can do that, you know, it's possible and it's easy. So, yeah, I definitely would like this community to become more open and more accessible. We know that, you know, there are countries and there are territories that are supporting creators that provide them with funding and with resources. And it's great to see all the beautiful experiences that we get from these. territories. I'm speaking about territories because it's something that was kind of attached to thinking as a producer and thinking about funding. But then there's so many people all around the world that still, you know, struggle to become a part of the community and we should do everything in our power to help them and to make sure that their voices are heard. And to be very honest, when you watch a couple of hundred applications or projects per season or even more than that, It's actually the underrepresented creators that tell the most exciting stories today.
[00:57:12.810] Kent Bye: Yeah. Just in the curation over the last number of years, I've also seen exactly that, you know, some of the more interesting things are coming from those underrepresented communities. So yeah, but as we start to wrap up, I'm just curious what you think the ultimate potential of all of these immersive technologies and immersive storytelling might be and what it might be able to enable.
[00:57:32.921] Ana Brzezinska: Well, that's the question I should ask you because you're the expert here. What I would like to happen is not necessarily something that I can reasonably foresee that will happen. Obviously, I think that we should do as much as we can to make sure that immersive worlds become increasingly open, violence-free, inclusive, respectful, and that we bring more people in and that virtual worlds become a part of our everyday life. But then there's a lot of questions and I'm personally very concerned about how the market will grow and whether it will remain independent and decentralized or if it's going to be just another step towards a metaverse that is actually private owned and that is controlled by gatekeepers who are so powerful that there's actually no way to even launch a debate about this. So this is the only concern I have. And I think we all think about it. And we all have this question mark every time we discuss this problem, because nobody really knows how to handle that and how to approach this. And there's probably no one way to do it. I want to believe that we're just the first generation of people who start to explore that whole huge area of new knowledge, new habits, new creative opportunities. And when I look at my nephews who are 21 and 14, I know that they will come up with something that we would never think of. And it makes me very happy, you know, because this is how I, I remain hopeful that things will get better.
[00:59:21.972] Kent Bye: Awesome. Is there, is there anything else that's left inside that you'd like to say to the broader immersive community?
[00:59:30.687] Ana Brzezinska: What I want to say is something that is very, very true and that really comes from the heart. I feel super grateful that I'm here today. I really am. And I feel grateful that we're talking about it. I feel grateful that you reached out to me and I feel grateful I work with these amazing people for the past three years. I feel grateful that I met Rene Pinel in Cannes a couple of years ago, and that I managed to convince him that he should think about working with me. I'm grateful that I work with Robin, who is a person who could probably design the whole universe differently, and that would be a very fun thing to watch. And I'm grateful that we exhibited, I don't know how many hundred of experiences, but many. I really had an opportunity like not many people have to meet with so many amazing creators and artists and leaders. And 99% of these encounters were amazing and helped me to grow and helped me to just become a better person. So this is, I think, what I want to say.
[01:00:40.724] Kent Bye: Awesome. Well, Anna, this is a, it feels like a conversation long overdue in terms of, you know, running into you many times in the Museum of Other Realities and other events that you've helped to produce and curate and be creative producer over the number of years. And so just really great to sit down and get a little bit of your own journey and story and looking forward personally to seeing where you all take this in the future. So thanks for taking the time today to be able to talk to me on the podcast. So thank you.
[01:01:04.734] Ana Brzezinska: Thank you, Kent. It's been an honor.
[01:01:07.117] Kent Bye: So that was a number Jessica. She's the new immersive curator for Tribeca, which was announced on January 10th, 2022. But this conversation was a lot of the work that she was doing with Kaleidoscope VR and all the different virtual event production that she was doing there. So I remember different takeaways about this interview is that first of all, Well just to hear her journey into becoming an immersive curator and also events producer just interesting to hear all the different stuff that she was involved with in Poland and what's it take to be able to be a curator of the space and so actually collaborating with the virtual events team at the Museum of other realities as well as being the liaison to the wider artist community and so there's a a dual role of not only producing those virtual events, but also in some cases, being a curator. So reaching out into those network of different artists and to be able to feature some of their work and be able to set up different collaborations like what's happening at Quills Fest. So a lot of different events that I've been able to attend over the last couple of years and really good to just do a recap of some of the different highlights and the role that Kaleidoscope VR has been able to play, especially because on April 12th, 2022, Renee Pennell tweeted out that Kaleidoscope VR was essentially letting the domain name expire. And so that as an entity has now ended. And then all of Rene's personal focus is going into the Artisan Fund. There's going to be a deprecation of some of the existing Web 2.0 infrastructure in May of 2022, and then the new Web 3.0 platform that he's launching for funding different artist work is going to be launching sometime after that. It's a little confusing just to see all the different transition from Kaleidoscope VR and what it was originally, and then into the Artisan Fund. But it's certainly doing a lot of really great work during the pandemic. Taking a lot of those insights, the thing that I'm really tagging is both the Interest of trying to bridge the different aspects of what's happening in the virtual space with the physical space But also pushing the edge of each of those independently so and thinking about going to Tribeca It sounds like there's going to be a lot of stuff that is going to be only available if you're there on site and so sometime between June 10th and 19th is when a lot of those physical exhibitions are gonna be happening, but there's also going to be a more virtual events and other stuff that I don't think has been fully announced just yet. I'm looking forward to being able to talk to her to be able to get all those details closer to the time when that event is actually happening. But for me, I'm hoping to actually make the trip out to New York City to be able to see the program that's there that is just announced today. And so some of the different stuff that I've noticed is that there's an entirely new competition program of the new voices There's the existing like main competition, which I think has typically been the story escapes competition and then the new voices competition I think is going to be highlighting a lot of the new creators that haven't been on the festival circuit yet and then there's a best of season with three different pieces that have shown other places but just want to be highlighted there so Definitely looking forward to checking out the latest events and really nice to be able to just do a little bit of a retrospective of what has happened with Kaleidoscope. I think I had heard privately from Anna that she was planning on moving on and I just wanted to do a recap of her time there at Kaleidoscope and I talked to her right before it was officially known or announced that she was going to be the new curator at Tribeca. Anyway, that's all that I have for today, and I just wanted to thank you for listening to the Voices of VR podcast. And if you enjoy the podcast, then please do spread the word, tell your friends, and consider becoming a member of the Patreon. This is a listeners-supported podcast, and I do rely upon donations from people like yourself in order to continue to bring you this coverage. So you could become a member and donate today at patreon.com slash voicesofvr. Thanks for listening.
