VR on exercise bikes like VirZOOM is going to be AMAZING… for some people, and I may not be one of those people. Movement within virtual environments is a hard problem, and while VirZOOM addresses some of the challenges of VR locomotion, people who are sensitive to simulator sickness will likely still have issues with some of the games developed by VirZOOM.
I was pleasantly surprised to find that the physical action of moving my legs was enough activity to trick my mind into making some types of VR locomotion a more comfortable experience. However, there were still a number of other game design decisions that triggered motion sickness in me including tilting the horizon line, lots of vection and optical flow, accelerating and decelerating, and moving up and down hills.
I had a chance to up with founder Eric Janszen at GDC after going through their different game prototype demos to hear more about their design intention, how they were integrating interval training within their gameplay design, and some of their future plans of integrating more mobile VR headsets.
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While I don’t think that VirZOOM can claim to have completely solved the VR locomotion problem, I was pleased to see that some VR locomotion schemes were indeed more comfortable than using a Xbox controller alone. Flying through the air on a Pegasus was one of the most comfortable experiences because there wasn’t a lot of optical flow. I believe that I did feel some improvements from being able to peddle, and I think that there’s more that can done from a VR design perspective to make it a more comfortable experience. I’ll be covering more of those specifics in an upcoming interview with Jason Jerald about motion sickness research and VR design principles to minimize it.
But it’s also possible that VR enthusiasts will have to self select into two different groups: those who can enjoy experiences with intense movement, and those who can’t.
Eric Janszen says that if you get motion sickness while reading in a car, then there’s a good chance that you’ll be susceptible to motion sickness in VR. He’s also sick of hearing about VR sickness as evidenced by a recent tweet to an article by Jon Peddie titled “I’m sick of hearing about VR sickness.”
Peddie argues that VR designers shouldn’t worry about compromising their designs in order to accommodate what may end up being a minority of people who experience simulator sickness. He says:
So now our current anxiety is all about VR sickness. VR will never succeed because it makes people sick. Really. I guess air travel, roller-coasters, and sailboats will never catch on, either, because they make people sick.
The point is that there is a distribution. Some percentage of the population can’t see 3D or color, gets fatigued by low refresh rates, has weak carpals, and gets motion sickness. Some, not everyone, just a small percentage.
Motion sickness can in some people be overcome, and so can VR sickness.
This is a big reason why Oculus implemented Comfort Ratings as a part of titles sold through Oculus Home so that users susceptible to simulator sickness could make an informed decision about what titles they would be able to enjoy. I’m not convinced that everyone will be able to overcome simulator sickness through brute force repetitions, and I don’t think that we should expect that people should have to suffer through developing their VR “sea legs” (if they even really exist for some people).
Because VR is in it’s early development stages, then Oculus has been super cautious about promoting too many VR experiences that they know will make a number of different people sick. At E3 this year, there was a lot of negative press about AAA games like Resident Evil 7 for the Sony PlayStation VR that were making people sick.
Some of these specific issues can be solved with good VR design, but there’s also a wide spectrum of different VR locomotion solutions. Some people will find all of the locomotion solutions comfortable, but some other people will find only some of them comfortable. I imagine a time in the future where these different VR locomotion options will be pretty standardized, and we’ll get to pick whatever system that works best for us.
Teleporting around can break presence, and it often becomes a quick cheat that discourages physical movement within a VR scene. In the end, teleportation kills your sense of place in part because it disrupts our sense of how much time should pass when moving from one point to another. There are ways to restore that by watching an out-of-body ghost walk towards your teleport waypoint to let that time pass, but it’s still not the same as the feeling you get when you’re actually moving around within an environment. So there are clear tradeoffs between immersion and comfort when looking at different VR locomotion schemes.
But overall, I think that VirZOOM is clearly going to be a popular incentive and motivator for some people to get more exercise. The blending of gameplay with interval training is something that makes a lot of sense, and there’s may ways to explore how to blend these two together. Aside from gaming, the feeling of exploration and taking virtual rides through the equivalent a fully immersive Google Streetview or Google Earth VR is what gets me the most excited about using VR to combine exercise with virtual tourism. I just hope that someone will figure out how to design the experience so that I don’t get sick doing it.
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Music: Fatality & Summer Trip
Rough Transcript
[00:00:05.452] Kent Bye: The Voices of VR Podcast. My name is Kent Bye, and welcome to The Voices of VR Podcast. On today's episode, I have the founder of Verzoom, Eric Jansen. Verzoom is a exercise bike where you're able to connect it to an HTC Vive to play games and have a different exploration experiences while you're exercising on a bike. So there's a huge market of health and wellness and applications for using VR to be able to inspire people to do exercise routines. And so we'll be exploring how they're using Verzoom and gamifying exercise, as well as applying the principles of interval exercise into the gameplay. So that's what we'll be covering on today's episode of the Voices of VR podcast. But first, a quick word from our sponsor. Today's episode is brought to you by the Mind and Body VR Hackathon. The Mind and Body VR Hackathon is a 48-hour competition that's happening on July 22nd to 24th in Los Angeles. It's being sponsored by HTC and Quest Nutrition and has over $20,000 in gifts and prizes. Some of the areas of focus are mindfulness, brain training, education, as well as fitness, nutrition, and medicine. It's starting the Friday before SIGGRAPH, and we'll have a community showcase on Sunday night. So for more information and to register, go to mindbodyvrhack.com. So this interview with Eric Jansen happened at GDC, which happened in San Francisco this spring. So with that, let's go ahead and dive right in.
[00:01:41.105] Eric Janszen: So my name is Eric Jansen, I'm the CEO of Resume, and we're a Cambridge, Mass-based VR development company. We make our own software and hardware, so our own games, and also our own specialized VR game platform.
[00:01:52.658] Kent Bye: Great. So you have here some exercise bikes and games associated to that. So maybe you could talk about how you're integrating exercise bikes into VR.
[00:02:01.409] Eric Janszen: Well, we use an exercise bike as the underlying mechanic for the controller. So the problem that we're trying to solve is we're actually trying to attack a bunch of problems in VR locomotion. One is the ability to move through big virtual worlds at speed, also to be able to turn, and most games don't let you do that because they'll make you sick. So the bike solves a first-order problem by coordinating your motion through the world with your pedaling. So the faster you pedal, the faster you go. when you turn on our games or you strafe by leaning, so we use the position tracking to lean. And so what's happening is you're using your whole body to control your avatar, and this helps rationalize your motion in the virtual world to your brain, so it just feels more natural. The next thing that we do is we use our special motion controls. to govern the way that your avatar turns in the virtual world. So again, the model is very similar to how you ride a motorcycle, where the motorcycle goes where you look. And so we have a set of these special motion controls to smooth out the motion and to cause you to turn in the virtual world the way your brain would expect you to from the inputs that you're giving it with your body.
[00:03:09.888] Kent Bye: And so, from your own experience, what are the breakdowns in terms of people who are sensitive to motion sickness, and what have you kind of found so far?
[00:03:16.913] Eric Janszen: So we've put over 10,000 people on these controllers since the early part of last year. And our observation is, generally speaking, the younger you are, the less sensitive you are to VR. My co-founder, Eric Malfi, whose theory is young people are just used to looking at screens since a very early age, and they just have adapted to it. My theory probably has more to do with the fact that our brains just simply get more wired the older we get. The expectations are more hard cast. Otherwise, there's clearly a correlation between if you tend toward motion sickness in the real world, if you can't read in the car, you're probably not going to like VR either. And that probably affects, I'm going to say, somewhere between 10% to 15% of the people that try our product. But then we've had people in their 80s just jump on it and just have a great time.
[00:04:02.065] Kent Bye: I think one thing to keep in mind with motion sickness is that sometimes people may do a five or ten minute experience and walk away and not feel motion sickness until another 20 or 30 minutes. And I know that happens for me. There's quite a delay that I may do something quickly, but then later really feel the effect. So how do you take that into account?
[00:04:19.440] Eric Janszen: Well, again, we put a lot of people on, so the demos, of course, are short experiences, and we encourage a lot of feedback, so we want to understand how our games are affecting people. We have 60 alpha sites that we've had up and running around the world since July, and they give us feedback on the forums and also have telemetry built into the game, so we understand how they're experiencing it, and we've been able to refine the motion controls and refine the games over time that way. And the general feedback we get is that you're either going to more or less have an immediate reaction to it, or you're going to be able to play until you're just tired. And you're not going to have a motion effect. So there's no cumulative motion effect. Either you're going to have it or you're not.
[00:05:00.581] Kent Bye: So right now you have a number of different games. Have you thought about being able to ride around and say, like, Google Maps?
[00:05:06.939] Eric Janszen: Oh, absolutely. In fact, one of the things we're doing here at GDC is we've embodied these special motion controls into an SDK that works with both Unity and Unreal so that independent developers and third parties can develop games on this very broad palette. So not constrained to slow motion and not through worlds and no turning, but being able to do the kinds of things that we do and giving you a different way to think about game design because not so much broader range of things that you can do.
[00:05:35.128] Kent Bye: So I'm pretty sensitive to virtual reality locomotion and I kind of know my triggers and I just feel it right away and I know when things are triggering me and so I just thought we might go through some things that worked for me and some other things that didn't work and why. So one of the ones that I felt okay was I was on a horse, like a flying horse, and I start to fly off. Now at the beginning it actually was a bit of a trigger having this vection and then all of a sudden feel like I'm lifting off but once I don't have a lot of motion underneath me and I'm flying through the air that seems to be a little bit more comfortable for me.
[00:06:08.740] Eric Janszen: Well, there's some trade-offs, right? So the first game you try to stampede where you can't turn at all, you're just strafing, going back and forth across the road. And we usually put people on that first to kind of gauge what their sensitivity is. And then games get more advanced. So flying, obviously, is a difficult thing in the real world, too, right? If you were to fly a Pegasus over a canyon 1,000 feet in the air, in the real world, that probably would make you dizzy, too. So that's vertigo more than motion effects, right? So you actually do feel like you're way up in the air. So we do let you do things that might make you feel bad in the real world too, like landing on the side of a cliff probably doesn't feel good. We'll let you do that because we don't want to constrain how you move in our world. We want to give you the sense of freedom that you have when you're using your body to control your avatar. So that's part of the thrill of it. So we're always trying to walk that line between thrilling and scary and for some people, scary to the point of making them feel scared, you know?
[00:06:59.827] Kent Bye: So I think that in terms of motion sickness for me there's like this disconnect that can happen so that for example one of the ones with the tanks I'm going up and down and because my body doesn't feel like I'm going up and down I just immediately start to feel motion sick and I think that's part of the reason why I started to feel a little of that vertigo at the very beginning of the Pegasus because I felt like oh I'm getting cues that my body is going upward but I'm not seeing any of that effects And so when I was in the tank experience, I just had to literally close my eyes because going up and down for me is a huge trigger. So if I'm going flat, it seems to be okay.
[00:07:32.476] Eric Janszen: Our experience is that it's something that you would tend to get used to over time. And some of the gameplay is really intense like that, like you're peddling a tank of a 30 degree grade, and you're bouncing over things and you're shooting and stuff. Initially, if you're 15 years old, it's like, great, whatever. If you're somewhat older, it might take you, I don't know, half an hour, an hour to kind of get used to it. It took me about that long. I'm, I won't say how old I am, but I'm in my 50s, and it really depends. There's a period of adjustment, like, and I think about it as the way you'd learn almost any new kind of controller, is that you have to kind of learn how to use it. But the alternative is other things that we've tried, which is just to reduce that amount of motion, but then it's not very interesting. So I think it's really largely a matter of learning how to get used to it.
[00:08:16.859] Kent Bye: One of the things that I thought really worked well was pedaling was actually giving enough biofeedback so that the faster and slower I was pedaling actually changed my speed that I was going. And generally, whenever I'm accelerating in VR, it's a big trigger for me. So it was nice for me to be able to see that I could pedal slower or faster in a VR experience like this and still kind of feel like I was moving forward.
[00:08:38.857] Eric Janszen: Well, right. I mean, don't forget that you're also exercising, right? So you're getting endorphins that are being released as you're pedaling. Also, if you're in our tank game and someone's shooting at you, there's going to be a little rush of adrenaline because, oh my gosh, I got to move. I'm going to get killed. So you translate that adrenaline into pedaling, your urge to flight. All that, as you say, is it's kind of a feedback loop that makes it all make perfect sense and tends to reduce locomotion sickness because you're so engaged in what your brain believes is a real set of events that you don't think about it.
[00:09:08.542] Kent Bye: One of the more odd experiences for me in this VR experience was that there's a transition to white that goes from VR experience to VR experience. And what I experienced was that as I was pedaling, I was getting the visual feedback that I was moving forward. And then I go fade to white to go to the next experience. And if I keep pedaling, that actually makes me motion sick because I expect the visual feedback that I'm moving forward. And because you break that, then it's like it reminds me that there's a disconnect there, which was kind of odd. I've never really experienced that before.
[00:09:37.109] Eric Janszen: That's good feedback. I mean, these are demos we have, you know, there's been a line of, as you can see here, 20, 30 people all day long. So we try to move people through quickly. So we give you about a minute or less, 45 seconds per trial of each of these five different games. Maybe what we'll do next time is we'll find some other way to transition it a little more smoothly.
[00:09:54.588] Kent Bye: I think if I stop pedaling, then I would stop getting the feedback. So if I come to a complete stop, and then go, and then start again, I think that would, oddly enough, I never had the experience of doing something with my body and making that cause emotion sickness when I'm not getting any visual feedback. It was really kind of weird and odd.
[00:10:11.824] Eric Janszen: Yeah, in the actual games, when you play them out, of course, when the game ends, it doesn't just stop that way. As you gradually slow down your pedaling, you slow down the world. Actually, in the helicopter game, for example, you run out of fuel and just splash into the water. It feels quite normal whenever you crash a helicopter into the water.
[00:10:27.838] Kent Bye: And I think that, you know, usually if you use a cockpit, for me, that is able to reduce vection and able to help reduce the impact of motion sickness, partly because you have a frame of reference, you know, when you're in a car or something like that. And oddly enough, with the race car experience, it felt like it was okay and it was fast. The only thing that was bad is that when I start to go on a turn and the whole car is turning, it's like impacting the horizon line. And because my head is so sensitive to leaning, if I'm not actually leaning, but the visual feedback is that the horizon line is changing, then that was a trigger for me. And again, I just had to just stop.
[00:11:03.853] Eric Janszen: Yeah, we think that game probably needs a little bit more tuning. My own personal feeling is that you're just too low to the ground. We need to have you racing a truck instead of a Formula One car. There's just too much rapid motion coming at you, particularly when you get to the edges of the sides of the race car track. That said, you put like a 16-year-old on it, and they're like, it's too slow. I want Mario Kart. I want things blowing up and spinning out. So it really depends on who the audience is.
[00:11:28.555] Kent Bye: I'm actually really excited for a project like this because I want to be able to go into VR, get some exercise, have something that was visually stimulating like driving my bike through Paris streets or something like that, and be able to use VR to encourage people to exercise. Maybe you could talk a bit about that in terms of part of your mission.
[00:11:46.401] Eric Janszen: Well, we'd love to see third parties developing these kinds of games. Our mission is to develop these more fantastical ideas that our team likes to execute on. But yeah, we get a lot of requests for that. People want to say they are bikers, like I am, and they'd like to simulate that experience. So we are talking to third parties that want to develop literally a Tour de France. You'd have to recreate the world in Unity or in Unreal. You couldn't just take video of it, because that would be camera on a rail, and you know how that's going to feel. So in order for it to work, you would actually have to use our motion controls in a recreation of these places.
[00:12:21.902] Kent Bye: Yeah, and one of my triggers that I do have is changing in elevation, like even going up or down. Like, when it's flat, it's completely fine. So I just look forward to the day where I can just take a flat bike ride anywhere in the world and be able to kind of just feel like I'm exploring, because that, to me, there's an exploration part of VR. But in also your games here, you actually have some, like, interactive gameplay elements. I found myself personally I'm not so much interested in winning or playing the game. I just like getting some exercise and just trying to take in the scenes. But with these different interactions and games, maybe you could talk a bit about some of the gameplay that you're trying to do.
[00:12:55.685] Eric Janszen: So the games are designed to encourage interval exercise. And again, the product is designed not just as a game, of course, but also to have health benefits. We find that our typical customer uses the product about 30 minutes a day, usually in the morning or in the evening when they come home from work. And they play each game for about 10 minutes. So they'll play a mix of three different games. And the games themselves are designed... I mean, if you just pedal flat out as hard as you could for 30 minutes, you're going to get exhausted. So interval exercise is the most efficient form of exercise where you're exerting yourself very intensely for a few minutes and then you're resting for a few. And this gets your metabolism really high, so even for the rest of the day, after you've exercised, your metabolism is still high and you're continuing to burn calories. So it's an extremely efficient way to lose weight, for example. And you're so engaged in this gameplay, you don't really realize that's what you're doing. So, for example, in the tank game, there'll be a cluster of AI tanks that you need to take out before they take you out, and then you pedal to the next set, and you have 10 minutes to do the whole thing. So that's how that game works. The Apache Helicopter is a classic arcade style, easy to learn, hard to master style. A bit like River Run. Remember River Run? So you're pedaling through the river, and you're getting shot at, and you're picking up fuel. And each time you go through the level, of course, there's more turrets, and it gets more difficult. But, you know, again, you do that, and 15 minutes later, you've gotten this workout, but you have been so engaged in this game that you don't realize it.
[00:14:18.457] Kent Bye: Maybe you could describe to me a little bit more about how this interval exercise works. I mean, in terms of the gameplay, what is the active part and what does the resting part look like in the game?
[00:14:27.210] Eric Janszen: Well, so in multiplayer tank game, for example, if somebody's chasing you, you know, the period of time where you're trying to get away, the typical strategy in a tank game is hiding and chasing, right? So, and it's in between those things that you're producing these intervals. And Stampede is much more of a, there's long stretches of time when you're continuously chasing and then periods of time before the next wave comes on, for example.
[00:14:49.455] Kent Bye: So I already have an exercise bike that I frankly don't use very often, and I'm curious if there's a way to add a sensor into my bike that I already have to be able to do it in VR and to be able to actually use it for more exercise.
[00:15:02.383] Eric Janszen: Well, if you notice, beyond it just being an exercise bike, you'll probably notice there's two game grips, right? So the bike will actually operate as a game controller. So it would be very difficult to design something that would work for any exercise bike that would do that. So this is why we're having our own manufacturer. But to your point about you're having an exercise bike you don't use, that was kind of the genesis of this whole idea. You're not alone. There's a few million people with an exercise bike that they don't use. There's also a large number of people that get gym memberships, 67%, who never use them. That's an important part of the whole health club business model, is the people that don't go. Our product is really for them. It's for people who know that they like to play games. They know they should be doing something for exercise, but haven't found anything they really enjoy. And we've created something that they should find a lot of fun.
[00:15:49.766] Kent Bye: Yeah, because I know that there's a certain amount of in the pedals and being able to detect how fast it's going. But for me, for example, I'm not as interested in using the game. So I would be just as happy to go into an experience that has my feet tracked in some way, but also be able to kind of just explore in worlds without having to use the gamepad controller. So is that something that you might consider in the future?
[00:16:09.955] Eric Janszen: Absolutely. In fact, one of the things we're talking about here at GDC is future support for Gear VR and other mobile games. There you don't need the head tracking, you don't need some of the higher level functionality that we have. So you can make much more simple exploratory games that didn't move around as much. And it could also, you could just bring them with you, or you're not hauling a PC around with you. So it could be mobile. And the reason that works is that our bike uses Bluetooth to connect through a dongle to your PC or your PS4, but it also will pair to your phone. So that's how we'll support mobile in the future.
[00:16:45.163] Kent Bye: And so what type of experiences do you want to have in VR then?
[00:16:47.825] Eric Janszen: Gosh, of the ones that we're talking about that I look forward to the most, there's a surfing game that we're working on. There's a moon exploration game where you pedal a rocket to the moon and then you're exploring the moon. Two that I look forward to.
[00:16:59.576] Kent Bye: And finally, what do you see as kind of the ultimate potential of virtual reality and what that might be able to enable?
[00:17:06.156] Eric Janszen: Well, with any new technology, the question is always, what can you do with this new technology that you couldn't do before it existed? Or what can you do better than before? And I think the reason that VR is initially finding its home in gaming is this one area where it could really improve gaming. So gaming before VR is looking through a little window and imagining yourself in that scene. In VR, you actually are in that scene. So the need to imagine your role in that scene is now gone and you're actually the tank in the battle, right? That's a big improvement over the past way that gaming worked. So I think that's inevitable that all gaming will go in that direction because it's such a huge improvement. But it also, ironically, I don't think it improves movies. In fact, I think it's hard to make movies in VR. So there's certain things it applies to and certain things it doesn't. But I think gaming is the most important area for it to find its first home.
[00:17:59.679] Kent Bye: Awesome. Well, thank you so much. Thank you for having me. Thanks. So that was Eric Jensen. He's the founder of Verzoom, which is an exercise bike that is integrating different virtual reality technologies. So I have a number of different takeaways from this is that, first of all, I do think that the overall health and wellness and using VR to inspire and gamify exercise is going to be a pretty huge industry overall. I think there's just a lot of really compelling use cases. And I think we'll see that over time, this could be something that gives you some mental stimulation and inspiration to be able to actually keep up with an exercise routine. Just as a side note, there's been at least three or four different developers that I've heard of who have actively gone out and got into shape just so that they can play different VR games. And so Verzoom in particular is something that I think we'll have to see whether or not the VR industry can kind of support a company like this. Because they're dealing with specialized hardware and technology, then developers will have to develop specific games for that platform. And I hope that they do eventually move to a model where if you don't want to use the integrated controllers, then perhaps you'll be able to just explore and not have the interactive game components with some of the experiences. So I think one other consideration to take into account is hygiene. As you're in a VR headset, you're going to be sweating and the face cover is going to get all sweaty. And just thankfully, a lot of the different VR HMDs have the ability to be able to take off that face mask and replace it. But using something like a VR cover or something that you could wash and use over and over again, I think is going to be a pretty key component to VR technology like this. And I think one of the biggest challenges for a system like this is going to be the motion sickness that some people are going to experience. Not everybody experiences motion sickness issues, but those who do are still going to feel a little bit of it. Despite the fact that I will say that just being able to move your feet and feel like I was on a bike, it did actually mitigate some of the motion sickness triggers that I usually feel. However, there's still other things like moving the horizon line, going up and down, stopping and starting, so anytime you're accelerating or decelerating. All of these things are things that kind of have this mismatch between my vestibular system and what my body's actually experiencing and can cause motion sickness. I'm a little bit skeptical of the idea that some people can just learn to deal with it or grow out of it or some people call it live into their... VRC legs. I think that that may be the experience of some people, but other people may just be sensitive to these types of disconnects and it might be a genetic thing or something that they've dealt with their entire lives. And I think that remains to be seen as we move forward and more and more people use VR technologies, whether or not there will be kind of the different classes of people who are sensitive to the motion sickness and other people who are not. There was a series of different videos that I watched the other day that were these speaker videos leading up to the future of storytelling. And one of them featured a person from Netflix named Todd Yellen. And he was talking about how, and within Netflix, there was basically like three different moods that they were able to discern that was kind of deciding what type of movies people like to watch. So, those three different categories at a highest level were either you like to escape, either you like to expand your mind, or you like to participate in a show because there's some sort of social currency behind it. So, I kind of see that there's two dimensions here, the different types of games that are being offered by Verzoom. The escape type are the more interactive games where you're actually in a tank or on a Pegasus flying through the air or on a horse racing. And these have a little bit of interactive game components that give you that sense of fun and play and interactivity. And for me, I like to really expand my mind and to explore and take an adventure. So I'm a little bit less interested in the game components and more interested in being able to ride my virtual bike anywhere, whether it's on a street anywhere in the world or be able to take a walking tour on my bike, just to be able to have that moment where we can integrate this type of technology into something like Google Earth or Google Street View that's an immersive mesh. I'm really looking forward to that day to be able to explore the world through exercise. And I think that if I were to be able to have that on a mobile headset, like a Gear VR or a Daydream VR, in addition to having some sort of controller to be able to put on the pedals and to be able to track my motion, that's the type of experience that really get me into exercising every day with my virtual reality headset and my stationary exercise bike. So perhaps we'll hear more information about Earth VR from Google, perhaps as soon as the SIGGRAPH. I don't know. We'll see. So with that, I wanted to thank you for listening. I will be a judge at this upcoming hackathon that was sponsored on today's episode. I'm going to be looking at different applications. And I think they're actually going to have some VerZoom technology there as well. So if you're interested in creating some of these experiences, then come on out to LA right before SIGGRAPH and create some experiences. And yeah, I think the overall applications of mind and body and health and wellness are going to be a pretty key market for virtual reality. So with that, I am standing in a hallway in a hostel in Austin. I'm speaking at a illustration conference this week about storytelling in the Uncanny Valley to a number of different visual storytellers and illustrators at the illustration conference, and perhaps doing some interviews there. We'll see. So, thanks for listening and tuning into the Voices of VR podcast, and if you enjoyed the show, please do consider leaving some ratings on iTunes, spread the word on Twitter, or drop me a note at Kent By. Or, you can also become a contributor to my Patreon at patreon.com slash voicesofvr.
