Jenn Duong is the Director of VR at 1215creative as well as the co-founder of “SH//FT,” which stands for “Shaping Holistic Inclusion in Future Technology.” SH//FT has been partnering with VR companies who plan on supporting diversity and inclusion initiatives within emerging technology by giving out scholarships & grants, supporting education, and cultivating community.
I had a chance to catch up with Jenn at the Rothenberg Ventures Founder Field Day where we talked about the importance of diversity, some of SH//FT’s specific plans to creating equal opportunity for everyone within VR, and Jenn’s career path from entry-level VR position to becoming a Director of VR within the last year.
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Rough Transcript
[00:00:05.452] Kent Bye: The Voices of VR Podcast. My name is Kent Bye, and welcome to The Voices of VR Podcast. On today's episode, I have Zhen Duong, who is the director of VR at 1215 Creative, as well as the co-founder of Shift. Shift is a nonprofit that is promoting inclusion and diversity within the VR community. So Jen's also one of the co-founders of Women in VR and talks about all the different initiatives that SHIFT is going to be doing in terms of providing scholarships and grants and education and cultivating communities of underrepresented groups within the larger VR community. So we'll be covering some of the larger diversity challenges that are facing the VR community and some of the very specific pragmatic approaches that Shift is taking in order to address some of these. So that's what we'll be covering on today's episode of the Voices of VR podcast. But first, a quick word from our sponsor. Today's episode is brought to you by Unity. Unity has created a tool set that has essentially democratized game development and created this lingua franca of immersive technologies, allowing you to write it once in Unity and be able to deploy it to any of the virtual or augmented reality platforms. Over 90% of the virtual reality applications use Unity. So to learn more information, check out Unity at Unity3D.com. So this interview with Jen Duong happened at the Rothenberg Ventures Founder Field Day that was happening at AT&T Park in San Francisco on May 16th. So with that, let's go ahead and dive right in.
[00:01:48.087] Jenn Duong: Hi, my name is Jen Duong, and I am the director of VR at a creative agency and production company called 1215 Creative, and I am also the co-founder of SHIFT. SHIFT does stand for Shaping Holistic Inclusion in Future Technology, so Shift is a non-profit that supports diversity and inclusion in emerging technologies like AR and VR. So by extension, one of my major focuses is women in VR. I started the Women in VR Facebook group with a woman named Julie Young, and she's a producer over at Emblematic Group. Julie's great, and we started Shift together.
[00:02:25.010] Kent Bye: So let's start with Shift and unpack this a little bit. What is the mission or what are you trying to accomplish with Shift and kind of the ultimate goal of what you're trying to do there?
[00:02:34.395] Jenn Duong: Shift's entire mission is to partner with industry leaders in VR and AR in order to create and sponsor equal opportunities. What I'm starting to see is we're so early in both virtual reality and augmented reality, right? That there's this real opportunity where everyone's like, oh my God, I can be a part of this. I can be in this. I can be a pioneer. And I think that's great. And that's really exciting. And so the thing is, is as it's emerging, we have this opportunity to build this sense of community where everyone feels like they can thrive in VR, regardless of their sex, regardless of their gender. And the thing is, I don't believe that just because someone's a woman, she should get that job over anyone else, or just because he's African American, or she's Hispanic, or he's Asian. All of that stuff doesn't matter. It comes down to, can you do the job, and can you do it as well as the people you're competing against? And we're slowly starting to see it in VR, actually. People are putting out job listings for senior developers, right? But they're requiring maybe 10 to 15 years of experience. The amount of women with that much experience in terms of development, there's not a lot of them. And because there's not a lot of them, we're never going to get that 50-50 ratio. And the way I look at it is, why are there not a lot of women in development? I think part of it is, one, we're not getting enough women in at the entry-level jobs that allow them to build up that experience to become competitive in the job market when those senior positions come about. Two, there's the culture aspect of it, right? We talk about it all the time, the bro culture and the gaming culture. And I think that's a huge deal, but we need to focus on the actual issues that are objective, that we can hit and focus on. And I think one is recognizing that diversity and inclusion are not synonymous. And because so many people treat them as synonyms, it just doesn't work. If you have a diverse community, but no inclusion, you have nothing. And if you have an inclusive community, but no diversity, again, you don't have anything. So it's like, how can we address both of those things and really make it work for VR and make sure that diversity and inclusion is a cornerstone of both of these industries as they kind of emerge? Because we also have to think like VR is multidisciplinary. So, I think if we can get diversity and inclusion in VR, it trickles down into gaming, it trickles down into tech, it trickles down more into entertainment.
[00:05:06.214] Kent Bye: So maybe you could describe in your own words as to why is diversity and inclusion important in the VR industry.
[00:05:13.119] Jenn Duong: It's funny, I actually recently talked about this on a panel. Let's take traditional porn. When we think about porn and kind of put aside the fact that it is a semi-lucrative industry, sex sells, we all know that, like realistically porn is driven by sexuality and that's a human emotion and I think there's something really unique to that. But when you look at the diverse slate of content that porn has, it's like, why else do you think it's been able to really rise and be a multi-billion dollar industry? I mean, if you just had guy on girl, I guarantee porn would not be as successful as it is. And so it's interesting because it's like there's something for everyone, you know, regardless of sex, regardless of age preference, regardless of even racial preference. It's like if you just want straight Asian porn, there's straight Asian porn. And I think that that diversity of content, you know, VR has something to learn from that in the sense that we need to make sure we're getting diverse perspectives. For example, if you look at gaming, people will argue that gaming is traditionally an industry that has always been more tailored towards men. But it's like, the opportunity for women to get into gaming has never really been there, because there aren't very many games that are, like, women-focused or women-specific. But, like, you take someone like me, and I love games. I love first-person shooter games. I'll sit down, and I'll hang out with a couple of my guy friends that aren't in VR, and we'll play Call of Duty. We'll play Zombies. Like, it's really fun, but not everyone's like me. I know there would be several women interested in games that actually addressed women interests. And I don't want to just say like, oh, makeup tutorials or something like that, but it's like, look at world building. I know a lot of women that love Farmville, you know, and it's like creating games that aren't so gender specific. You asked me why I think diversity is so important. I think it's important because VR is really this industry that it's not just targeting one demographic. It's not just targeting one specific area. It's everything. It's like I said earlier, VR is multidisciplinary. And when you look at the demographic for that, it's not like region specific, it's global. When you look at the global population, half of it, it's women. And there's so many different races as well. And it's like, we can't exclude all of them. And so when you're in your development phase, you need to take into account, what is my demographic? And if half of my demographic is women, or if half of my demographic is Latino, African American, Asian, like you need to make sure you have those perspectives represented. Otherwise, you're either going to go towards what stereotypes have been here and it's not authentic.
[00:07:56.297] Kent Bye: So in my own personal experience, in the Voices of VR podcast, I try to go out of my way sometimes to include diverse perspectives and feature people that may not be on my immediate radar, but I'm trying to have a balance of different perspectives. And the thing that I've found from that is that oftentimes a lot of the people that I do that with, they have some new piece of information that I had never even thought of before. and I think to me that VR really represents this spectrum of the full human experience that is out there and that in order to replicate in VR the human experience then we have to incorporate all the different perspectives. My hope in some ways is that VR could perhaps start to create experiences that allow people to empathize what it might be like for people that are not of their position of power and privilege or their position in the culture
[00:08:49.308] Jenn Duong: Well, I think another thing is, is even if we create those experiences, people have to be open minded and people have to want to experience those things to really understand what it's like. A lot of the times I've gotten people who will come up to me not realizing that I kind of helped start Women in VR and that it's a huge part of my life and it's something I'm very passionate about. And they'll immediately ask, like, what do you think about Women in VR? And they think it's so silly and they think that If we're all equal, why isn't there a men in VR? And it's one of those things where I get it. I get that not everyone's going to understand the struggles that all minorities go through. but it's also one of those things where it's like, I'm not asking you to agree. I'm asking you to be open and to understand why we exist and to not frown upon why we exist because there is a reason. Like it's not because we need attention. It's not because women are lesser than men. Therefore they need to band together to try to rise, to be equivalent. It's the fact that there aren't a lot of us out there and we need a place where we can come together and create an inclusive sense of community because like we include men in the women in VR Facebook group like I talk to guys all the time because at the end of the day it's about getting that diversity in terms of perspectives opinions And you get to a point where you start to see people more as equals as opposed to, like, oh, that's a white male in tech. It's just like, oh, there's Frank. Like, Frank's really knowledgeable. Let me connect him with, like, Sarah, you know? And, like, that's what Shift is about. Like, at the end of the day, Shift is about equal opportunity and creating equal opportunity where there wasn't any previously. And one of the huge arguments is, well, if people really want to develop, there are tools out there. Like, you can learn Unity, you can teach yourself Nuke, you can teach yourself XYZ, and it's like, I've done that. I taught myself how to take apart a GoPro, how to modify it, and it's not that hard, but it's like, I've taught myself how to work with cameras, I'm teaching myself Nuke right now, I'm teaching myself Unity, and it's like, it's not easy. And realistically, when I think about it, most of my mentors have all been women. Never really once had a male guy reach out and say, like, hey, I want to mentor you, you know? And I think, like, there's a sense of unconscious bias, so that's part of it. And so it's like, how can we combat these things? It's like, yes, there are tools available, but why does a sense of community hurt? You know, like the Reddit trolls, you got Facebook trolls, and it's kind of like, hey dude, you're welcome to join the group. Yes, we're called Women in VR, but it's a community that's open to everyone. We open source everything, like any articles that I find helpful, I always post. We have a community post that's pinned at the top that's like, here are all the meetups in Seattle, here are all the meetups in San Francisco, here are all the major VR events happening for the next year. These were really great resources that I found for making 360. These are all the cameras. Anyone can use that information. You don't have to be a guy. You don't have to be a girl. It's just like, there's not a lot of women. I wanted to create a place where women can connect with other women. Why is that a big deal? Yeah, I don't know. It's a complicated issue.
[00:12:11.380] Kent Bye: Well, I think this conversation is happening in the context of this larger Gamergate. I don't even know how you would describe it, or I don't know if I necessarily feel Gamergate infiltrating into VR specifically, or maybe it is and I'm just not aware of it. But how do you feel like that whole conflict is fitting into this overall discussion about all this?
[00:12:30.410] Jenn Duong: My biggest thing is when we see an issue, for example, One of the biggest things are panels and panel representation. Everyone's pushing for 50-50 panels. Or everyone's trying to make that push. And people will get upset if they go to a panel and it's full of men. And in a way, rightfully so. But at the same time, it's also like, it's one of those things where putting together a panel is difficult. No one is going to have a woman on a panel just because she's a woman. Just as they aren't going to have a man on a panel because he's a man. Usually it's like, oh, a man with a big company and he has a big title and all that stuff. So my thing is, yes, you have the right to be frustrated. But at the same time, you need to make sure that you're looking at it from both perspectives and do what you do best. If you're a content creator, if you're a developer, do what you do best because eventually people will reach out to you to speak on panels. You can't keep pushing the issue of like, Oh, there's no women on this panel. There's no women on this panel. Surprise, surprise. And it's like, how many women do you know who have resumes that can legitimately compete with those men? You know? And it's like, we can't make 20 Nani de la penas to speak on 20 different panels that are happening all around the world. We can't make, 20 Molly Swinson's from Riot to speak on panels that are happening all around the world. It goes back to that idea that diversity starts at the beginning. It's like how can we provide tools that women and all underrepresented groups can use to really educate themselves about VR so that way they can make the best content. They can be the best content creators they can be. They can be the best developers they can be. And because of that, they are recognized. for that. It's so hard to start a movement around just sex and just race. What we're going through right now, it's not necessarily the same thing to me as, you know, the civil rights movement. It's not that, but at the same time it's recognizing how do you address something that people may not necessarily get. What we're going through in terms of VR and tech, I feel like there's so much momentum behind it because people are tired. Like, I am tired of going to conferences and men asking if they need to slow down to make sure I'm catching everything that they're saying. I actually had a guy say, oh, you're from LA? Oh, you're fairly attractive. You must not have much to say. I actually had someone tell me that. And it's kind of like, Is this what people see when they see me? And it's how can I do everything to show that I'm not that, but not pulling the gender card and not pulling the race card. And sometimes it's hard. And so it's like, I want to create a sense of community and a tool set and opportunities for anyone that feels that way, whether it's about their sex or their race, to really be able to use that to make themselves the best at whatever it is that they want to be so they don't have to pull that card because I don't want it to be a crutch. You know, I want society to get to a point where we don't necessarily follow social constructions and we're slowly getting there. It's like you can drop out of college now and be successful and it's still frowned upon but like the attitude is changing. I want to see how can we create something so that that attitude shifts towards women and towards people of minorities where it's not like, oh, she's a woman. Therefore, it's like, she's a woman. I acknowledge that she's a woman, but she's brilliant. Or, he's African-American, I acknowledge that he's African-American, but he's brilliant. Like, he's smart. It's like, how can we change that? Because at the end of the day, it comes down to stereotypes. It comes down to stereotypes and social constructions. And it's like, how can we as a society not feed into that? It's very much like feminism. I think feminism is all about equal opportunity. And then you have guys that will misinterpret it because you have women who are calling themselves feminists going out and making noise and bashing on men and turning it into a women are better than men sort of battle. It's like we can't do that, guys. And because they tend to be the loudest segment, that's how people brand feminism. There's a movie that came out in 2004, I believe. It's called Crash. And it represents that really well. It's actually in terms of race. I guess I'll use the example from the story. There is an African-American character who is in entertainment, very well educated, very well spoken. And like his producers, like, oh, this actor needs to talk more black. And it's like, so there's that. But then there's also these two other African-American kids who commit a crime. And because they committed a crime, that's how everyone sees the African-American community, yet you have someone who's well-educated. And he says, this isn't word for word, but he basically said, you embarrass yourself and you embarrass us. I see the exact same thing happening in terms of like feminism and you know it's one of those things where when I see an issue like there not being enough women on a panel it's like you don't have to take to Facebook to post about it because what does that do? We're all very aware of this very frustrating issue but it's like did you reach out to the organizer of the event saying like do you need help finding women? that are qualified to speak on these panels, because there's more than just like five. And I'm all about like recognizing women that aren't always recognized, like Helen Cetu. I love Helen, but it's like, everyone knows Helen, everyone knows Nani, everyone knows Christina Heller. And it's like, what about people like Ava in Seattle, Ava Earth? Like, what about Michelle, who's the YouTube star with Kill9TV? Like, you know, like finding these, underdogs and giving them that acknowledgement and recognizing them as people who are pushing this industry forward. And sometimes people who organize events, they're just not aware. So it's like, instead of posting to Facebook about it, reach out. When the GDC party happened that Xbox had hosted, everyone was outraged. I saw on the Women in VR Facebook page, there were literally like five articles basically saying the same thing and women very unhappy about it and it's like yes we can band together and use social media to criticize and be like this isn't cool and drop the f-bomb and say like this is exactly why we need more diversity but it's like I ended up writing this huge post. I'm like, guys, reach out. Take this energy. I understand why you're upset. I understand why it's upsetting, but reach out to them. I reached out to Aaron Greenberg, who is head of marketing at Microsoft. I had a face-to-face meeting with him that day discussing the issues of what happened and how they addressed it. And now, like, we're talking to Microsoft about diversity. And the thing is, like, when something bad like that happens, people forget that Microsoft hires female engineers, that they have a diversity and inclusion sector of their business. And it's like one slip up and they go back. You know, everyone's like immediately like, oh my God, Gamergate. It's like people are either upset because they don't understand the whole situation or they're just kind of rallying behind this whole like, oh, this is painfully obvious, therefore I'm upset. You know, it's like got to see it from both sides. And that's something that I think is important, especially if I want to advocate for equality as I try to understand both sides of everything.
[00:20:12.915] Kent Bye: And so moving forward with SHIFT, what are some of the pragmatic next steps and events and strategies that you have to start to make a difference in this larger issue?
[00:20:23.361] Jenn Duong: So with SHIFT, we want to address diversity and inclusion in three different verticals. The first one is scholarships and grants. second one is education, and third one is community. In terms of community, Julie started doing community with Paisley Smith and Ashley Pinnock with VRG. And VRG has done a really great job of establishing that. And it's like, Julie and I met last year and we started Women in VR together, so it's like, She's hosted wine nights and then we've, through the VR group, we've encouraged other people to start their own VR meetups. And now we have meetups popping up in Seattle and New York. And so that's really great. We've built a sense of community and it's like, how can we take that to the next step to create a conference? I don't think people realize how much work goes into making a conference. VRLA doesn't happen overnight. SVVR doesn't happen overnight. And it's also one of those things where it's like, do we really want to call it a women in VR conference? So that's actually part of the reason why we named the nonprofit Shift is because we don't want to call it women in VR. It's not just about women in VR. So that's kind of the community aspect is long-term goals would be to have something like a conference where we bring together all these diverse perspectives and hopefully, you know, give panels and talks and presentations that allow people to get an insight into VR that they don't always get when they go to every other panel where people, kind of no offense to anyone out there, all you panelists, say the same thing. Oh my god, like, I kind of want to create a game where Like, the day that I can use immersion, empathy, disrupt all in the same sentence. I'll be like, I'm done. And leave the panel. I have said all that I need to say. Education. It goes back to how can we make sure that people are getting in at those entry to mid-entry level jobs. and educating themselves and providing them with the right tools so that they are competitive in the job markets to come as time goes by. But first and foremost, we want to address the financial barriers of getting into VR. It's very expensive. Even if you're going into live action and not even touching interactive, you need, at minimum, like six to seven GoPros, $500 each. And then the 3D printed mount for it's another like $500 to $700. It's like you've already dropped over a couple of grand just on equipment alone. So how can we kind of alleviate that stress? And it goes back to not everyone comes from the same privilege. And unfortunately, especially if you want to address minority groups, It's like going to areas where there's not a lot of money, where there are great storytellers and empowering them and enabling them to use this medium to tell their story. It's like, I want to do that. Long-term goal for that, like Julie and I have talked about it. It's like the day that we can provide full ride scholarships to universities for students is like really exciting and kind of a dream, but hey, dream big, right? In terms of specifics, I can't talk too much about what we're working on, but I will say when we launched our advisory board, it was very much a soft launch. I don't think Shift has launched yet. We're working on a lot of various partnerships that I'm hoping to announce within the coming weeks. But just to give people an idea of some of the companies we're talking to, it would be like Microsoft, Intel, Facebook, all the heavy hitters. Our mission statement states that we want to partner with industry leaders to make sure that this happens.
[00:23:56.317] Kent Bye: Yeah I think it's really the way to go with this to kind of working at where the money actually already is and maybe if we could take a step back and talk about your own personal entry into virtual reality and your evolution of your own career trajectory of where you've been and where you're going and you know how that kind of fits into you know your role as a creative within the VR industry.
[00:24:16.812] Jenn Duong: Yeah, yeah, yeah. My background's in theatre and film, and at the time, for those of you guys who know, there's not a lot of money in theatre and film unless you've been at it and busting your ass off for, like, decades. And I was working at a tech company to try to make ends meet. And this was early 2015, so right after the Oculus Facebook acquisition. And I remember everyone, everyone and their mother was talking about VR. And I'm like, what is this? What is this medium that people keep talking about? I don't get it. I keep hearing the word empathy. What is happening? Looked into it, and I was like, wait, stop everything. Everyone like stop everything. Holy cow. This is the intersection of film This is the intersection of theater and tech like three things that I'm incredibly passionate about So I found a little production company Through personal connections and I basically convinced them to bring me on as an intern. So I interned there a little bit learned a lot and it was kind of like It wasn't quite the right fit for me, so I left. Went to a VR content distribution platform. It's in stealth mode. And I kind of came on as biz dev, content community manager, which was really interesting. I was basically being paid to talk to people, which I loved. I learned a lot, but realized my heart's in content creation. So went over to Riot, stayed at Riot for a little bit, and then now I'm a director of VR. The crazy thing is, and I even said this when the guys at 1215 were interviewing me, I'm like, I'm still learning. Like, I'm still figuring this out. Like, I'm still figuring out interactive and what that looks like and all that stuff. And it's been really great. So it's kind of how I got into VR. In terms of where I'm going, I'm exploring a lot of different things right now. People will ask me, like, what are you really excited about? And honestly, I'm really excited about 360 videos. I know a lot of people are like, well, interactive is where it's at, like the vibe and being able to walk around and, like, choose your own perspective. And I'm like, yes, it's all really exciting. And I think that's all a part of the future. I think 360 video has a part in the future as well. One of those things where what we've been doing as humans since the inception of time, since, oh, these were our caveman days, we've been world building. We've been creating worlds and telling stories. And I feel like people write off 360 video because it's hard. All of a sudden, you can't have lights everywhere. You can't do all of these things that we've traditionally done in film. But in a much greater sense, it's like, how can I build a world doing this? All of a sudden, that lamp that's in the corner of the room has so much more significance than the blurred lamp that you have on a still in a film. And so I just want to explore that. I feel like we've written it off too quickly. I think the documentary style stuff that we've seen come out of companies like Riot and Verse, it's great. But I want to see what fictional narrative looks like. I want to see what a great branded VR experience that's a 360 video looks like. Like, what is the future of commercials in VR? What does that look like, you know? It's too soon to write it off. So I'm going to explore that until I figure it out.
[00:27:43.129] Kent Bye: Well, what do you think that theater has to teach virtual reality?
[00:27:46.970] Jenn Duong: I think theater in terms of the way a director actually has to work with a production designer and a lighting technician to create a world, as well as working with actors. Like, in theater we rehearse like crazy for six weeks. You teach the actors their blocking, you work together on character objectives, character beats, and the pacing of a scene. And then once that show goes on, as a director, your job is done. You let the show run its course. That's why theater is so phenomenal, because every performance is different. And I think, you know, in VR people are like freaking out about, oh my God, I can't see the live feed. I have no idea what's happening. And it's like, did you rehearse? I have no problem, if I have the proper amount of time with actors, I would have no problem walking away from camera. You know, like, let's run the scene three times and call it a day. So I think there's that aspect that we can really take from theater. I think we can take aspects in so many ways from everything. I think costume design, we like, all of a sudden costume design really matters, like makeup design. And you find that in theater and film. I mean, I want to hear very cool soundscapes. Like, when I've gone to theater shows and they've had immersive soundscapes, it's phenomenal. So we can pull audio mixing in from film. It's taking all these tools that we use to build worlds and actually realizing that it's like, holy crap, all I'm doing at the end of the day is building a world. Like I was watching it like Jungle Book. It's all freaking green screen. There's nothing stopping us from doing that in VR. CG has come so far in the past 10 years. There's nothing stopping us from doing that in 360 videos. I feel like we've written it off too soon saying like, oh, it's not this. It's not that. But it's like, guys, look at Felix and Paul's experience with the dinosaur. for Jurassic Park. It gets phenomenal. It's just taking that and sticking it into 360. I'm not saying like, what worked on a flat screen won't necessarily work in 360 video. And that's the thing we need to figure out. What works for you as a storyteller? I think that's another thing that people aren't necessarily doing. We're constantly, we've always been taught, think about your audience, think about your audience. And it's like, this is so new. I want people to ask themselves, are you telling your story? And if you're not, what can you do to make it so that you are telling your story? Because for the first time ever, we have the option to really be able to build a world where hopefully someone can watch it and learn a little bit about us, like truly learn a little bit about us and our perspectives.
[00:30:25.685] Kent Bye: And finally, what do you see as kind of the ultimate potential of virtual reality and what it might be able to enable?
[00:30:32.878] Jenn Duong: I hope that this is something that turns into a completely different generation in terms of we're not so biased against each other and we're not living within social constructions anymore and it's not scary to be different. It's not scary to do something that's outside of the norm and I hope that, I think VR has this ability to open minds. It's really opened my mind into realizing that the way I see the world through my eyes is going to be completely different than the way you see the world through your eyes. And so getting that understanding is one thing. But personally, this is really weird and kind of selfish. It's like I've struggled with storytelling my entire life. I've struggled with sharing my emotions and how I feel about a specific thing my entire life. I still struggle with it today. And the day that I can finally tell a story in the exact way that I intend to, that's everything. I think the day that I'm finally able to clearly communicate something in story format through VR, I think VR is the only thing that I can do it through. So when that ability becomes accessible to not only me, But every single storyteller in this world, can you imagine how many different stories we're going to have? And how, as individuals, that's going to shape us in terms of we're going to become so well-rounded and hopefully less bias and less prejudice. It's weird. I just want a better world.
[00:32:08.145] Kent Bye: Is there anything else that's left unsaid that you'd like to say?
[00:32:11.230] Jenn Duong: No, I really want to say, like, thank you for having me on and pulling me aside to do this because I've just been in VR for a year. I'm by no means an expert. I am by no means, in my opinion, a pioneer. I'm just, I'm a woman that's in this space trying to figure it out alongside everyone else. So I'm eager to learn from everyone. I'm eager to hear and understand everyone's different perspectives. And, you know, hopefully there's something in here that people listen to and it will cause them to realize something. And then all of a sudden, you know, like if people can pull anything out of this podcast, I'd be really excited. But I hope I did.
[00:32:53.655] Kent Bye: I think so. Well, Jen, I really appreciate your time and thank you for joining me today.
[00:32:58.877] Jenn Duong: Yeah. Thank you so much for having me, Kent.
[00:33:01.439] Kent Bye: So that was Jen Dewong. She's the director of VR at 1215 Creative, as well as the co-founder of Shift, which is a non-profit promoting diversity and inclusion within the VR community. So a number of different takeaways about this is that, first of all, it's pretty inspiring to hear Jen's pathway into VR and being able to teach yourself as well as to move up from job to job, kind of moving from an entry-level position to now being the director of VR within the course of a year. And so to me it just gives me a lot of hope that this shift organization is going to take a similar pragmatic approach of building a lot of these alliances with these major companies and players within the VR ecosystem and to be able to get the resources in order to start to provide different scholarships and grants to promote diversity and inclusion into groups who don't have access to either the technology or the resources or the community or the education. And so taking a lot of the actual challenges that the VR community is facing and trying to take action to make a difference and to actually provide some opportunities for people who otherwise wouldn't have them. And I think it's also just kind of worth bringing in that this is a pretty hot topic issue. If we look at everything from the alt-right and their backlash on feminism, as well as the larger gaming community's Gamergate controversy, this issue of diversity and inclusion is something that, for whatever reason, has become a very charged topic. And I think a lot of people may not want to be kind of caught in the middle of it. You know, I also think there's a certain amount of distance and objectification when it comes to kind of looking at this from afar, looking at statistics and objective numbers and trying to argue from a distance. And yet for me, you know, with the Voices of VR podcast, I'm kind of on the ground talking to people, listening to their stories, and doing interviews with them, but then also just hearing a lot of stories from people kind of off the record of some of their personal experiences of just experiencing what in essence is kind of a dismissal or unconscious bias when it comes to just not really fully being accepted as equal in many different ways. And so I see that this is a very real phenomenon and it's something that I even personally experience when I'm in a group of 15 or 20 men and you start to kind of have this locker room type of talk that can start to happen where it feels like the boys club and there may actually be women present and making women uncomfortable, just having some of my meetups in virtual reality having this situation where I'm kind of holding the space as the leader and yet, you know, kind of hearing these things that, you know, is it worth kind of, you know, bringing up and disrupting the flow and trying to correct and be the policeman and the bad guy? And, you know, I think the thing moving forward that's going to be really important for me as I'm holding these different events and spaces is to really emphasize that there's a code of conduct and say, hey, look, these are the rules of engagement. We should really try to treat people as equals, and if you're not willing to abide by this code of conduct, then I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to ask you to leave. And so it's something like taking a stand like that. It's as simple as that, just to say, hey, there's a code of conduct, and this is kind of the rules of engagement here in this environment. Yeah, I'm just really want to put myself out there as an ally for this effort of diversity and inclusion. And I think it's super important because, you know, if we really want VR to succeed, then it really does have to support the diverse voices that are going to create the content that is going to be appealing to other communities that aren't currently being served with the existing VR experiences. So that's a lot of my big takeaways from this interview, and super excited to see where Shift goes. And I just really wanted to encourage people to sign up and follow what they're doing, and to really try to reach out and support in whatever ways that you can. With that, thanks for listening. And yeah, if you do enjoy the Voices of VR podcast, then please do spread the word, tell your friends. And if you would like to send me a tip and help continue this type of coverage, then please do consider becoming a contributor to my Patreon at patreon.com slash Voices of VR.
