Here’s my interview with ENGAGE‘s David Whelan, CEO of Engage PLC, that was conducted on Thursday, June 1, 2023 at Augmented World Expo in Santa Clara, CA. Be sure to check out my previous episode #1215: Fatboy Slim’s Groundbreaking & Trippy VR Concert on EngageXR that was released a few days before this follow-up conversation with Whelan. See more context in the rough transcript below.
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Music: Fatality
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Rough Transcript
[00:00:05.478] Kent Bye: Hello, my name is Kent Bye, and welcome to the Voices of VR podcast. It's a podcast that looks at the structures and forms of immersive storytelling and the future of spatial computing. You can support the podcast at patreon.com slash voicesofvr. So to continue my series of looking at AWE past and present, today's episode is with David Whelan of EngageXR.com. So David is the CEO of Engage PLC. And I had a chance to talk to him on Thursday, June 1st, 2023, which was after I had published my interview with Fatboy Slim's concert that they had done within the context of Engage. And then after I got back from AWE, then there was the announcement for Apple that come out. And so, you know, whenever I go to these different events, there's always the zeitgeist of whatever the hottest topic is at the moment. And I'm always recording way more podcasts that I can release like in real time. And so this is an opportunity in this series for me to go back and dig into these unpublished interviews that were also still relevant to marking the history of the evolution of the medium, but also to look at these very interesting moments. And so like, how did this whole Fatboy Slim concert within the context of EngageXR even come about? So I wanted to chat with David just to get a bit more of that backstory. And it turns out that that is very much a marketing move in the sense that they wanted to promote the capabilities of their platform to like this target demographic of people who like grew up listening to Fatboy Slim. And so it just happened to be this very interesting intersection and led to them getting a lot more traction than other efforts that they were doing to try to like promote what they were doing within the context of their platform. So it's a real example of experiential marketing for them to create cultural events that are showing the use of their technology and the power of immersion, but also in a way that allows them to show their capabilities of what they're able to do on these platforms. They've obviously continued to go on and improve the platform and facilitate lots of different gatherings and Engage PLC is also like a publicly traded company. So there's a certain level of transparency that's happening with Engage XR that you don't usually see within the context of the larger industry. So you get some real hard numbers in terms of seeing how they're growing with this use case of enterprise communications and training. So we'll be covering all that and more on today's episode of the Voices of VR podcast. So this interview with David happened on Thursday, June 1st, 2023 at Augmented World Expo in Santa Clara, California. So with that, let's go ahead and dive right in.
[00:02:29.229] David Whelan: Yeah, so I'm David Whelan. I'm the CEO of Engage PLC. We're a metaverse platform, but I don't think that really explains the breadth of the stuff that we do. We do virtual events, and we do a lot of education, training and development. Pretty much anything that requires multiple users in a virtual space, we do that on our platform, and we enable our clients to build whatever they like on the platform.
[00:02:50.664] Kent Bye: Great. Maybe you could give a bit more context as to your background and your journey into VR.
[00:02:55.717] David Whelan: Yeah, so I've been here quite a while. I was a DK1 owner back in the day. I was the producer and director on Apollo 11 VR, which was a quite popular experience. I built that with Drash, who was another very popular VR developer back in the day. We had other education experiences like Titanic VR, worked with the BBC on a Berlin Blitz experience. But all the time in the background, we were building the Engage platform. which initially was designed as a virtual reality classroom, where you could get taught remotely from any educator in the world. And not only that, you could build your own content using spatial recordings. So if you missed a class from Stanford University, as an example, you could replay it over as if it's happening live. When COVID hit, we had HTC come and hold an event on the platform. right just when China closed down actually, because it was supposed to be physically in China. And from that event then we had a lot of corporations coming to us looking to host their own virtual events. And because in the events themselves we had access to C-level executives like CTOs and CEOs, we were then upselling them on, okay, what are your training and development requirements? What are your onboarding requirements? Is there anything else where you think immersive technologies can be useful in your company? And that enabled us then to onboard over, I think, close to 30 Fortune 500 companies, and we have over 200 enterprise clients today as I stand here.
[00:04:12.751] Kent Bye: OK, yeah, the last time we had a chance to talk was back in May of 2021. And at that point, you had just crossed over your 100 customer mark. So now you've doubled that in the last two years. And you also have had a big concert experience with Fatboy Slim that I had a chance to see. And at the time, I didn't realize it was built upon this Engage link platform, which launched back on November 7 of 2022. The last time we spoke, you were talking about this idea of this corporate metaverse where you have these persistent open spaces that is kind of like an open world exploration, but more geared towards companies and kind of like a LinkedIn of the metaverse. And so maybe you could expand on this Engage Link platform and what you're able to do with that.
[00:04:53.610] David Whelan: Yeah, so we are very much kind of like an early LinkedIn. So we have over 200,000 registered users on the platform. Average age is 40 years old, even split of men and women. So we're very unlike any other platform in this space where most of them have a lot of kids on the platform and probably a lot more users as well. What works quite often is that these companies, they build their own virtual spaces, you know, but they are at the moment treating it like the homepage of a website. Oh, we build this lovely branded location. If they don't hold any events in there, they're going to be dead. You know, so they need to hold immersive events in their networking events, you know, training days and the likes. And when those events happen, the platform gets very busy for those couple of hours. And when the event is not there, then you might get maybe 300, 400 people looking at your location if it's an interesting location. But it's only a starting point. We're not a company that sells virtual land. I don't see a point in selling virtual land. You can always build more virtual land. There's no inherent value to having virtual land. What we're doing is we're selling hosting space for these people to build out their worlds and make them as big and as broad as they want or make them as small as they want with immersive content. I think the future for us, there's going to be metaverses for dating, metaverses for sports. I think we kind of see ourselves more like a platform for people to build on, like a WordPress for all the world, where people can build whatever they like, but if it's enterprise and education focused, I hope that they come to our platform first and try it out. We've been around a while. Eight years we're ISO certified. We're on GovCloud. We're also a public limited company as well. So that actually gives a lot of our clients comfort that, yes, we're not just a startup that's going to disappear in two years if you run out of funding. We're here for the long haul.
[00:06:30.370] Kent Bye: So being a public company in that way, you have different obligations of reporting different revenue and other statistics. And so I know that there was just a press release that was put out over the last couple of weeks announcing some of the latest results. Maybe you can give a brief rundown of how things are going there at Engage.
[00:06:45.219] David Whelan: Yeah, so being a public company, you have to announce all your numbers. So we're probably one of the few VR companies where you know exactly how much they're making. So two years ago, we made $2 million in revenue. Last year, it was $4 million in revenue, so it doubled. This year, we think we're going to do about $6 million in revenue, possibly $7 million. I know there's been a bit of a slowdown. Our first quarter was pretty strong. We made 40% more revenue in our first quarter this year as opposed to last year. So we're on track to do that, $6 million in revenue. We just announced a partnership with Lenovo. We're actually... The first multiplayer platform on the Spaces SDK, which is built by Qualcomm, they're actually demoing their headset for the first time at this event. So we're going to be working hand-in-hand with Lenovo, going out, joint pitching to companies, their top 100 companies. It only takes a couple of those really to sign on in a big way, and you'll see a big explosion of engaged users.
[00:07:32.214] Kent Bye: MARK MANDELSSON- What are some of the most active users of your corporate clients? What type of things are they doing on your platform?
[00:07:40.825] David Whelan: So we have a few motor companies. One of the public ones we can announce is Kia. They have a digital twin on the platform, which they use for training and development remotely. They're salespeople, but they also place the digital twin on Engagelink. So people, the public can walk around, look at the cars, ask information about the cars. A lot of the big consultancy companies like KPMG we work with, PwC, those main consultancy companies, what they're doing is they're being asked about Metaverse and they don't build it themselves, they actually come to our platform then and we provide advice and then hopefully we get those clients on board. They're really active. We actually have, it's a strange user base because we were focused on education for so long and we still are. 60% of our clients are educationally based, but they only make up 30% of the revenue. The rest then are enterprise, but they make up the large majority of revenue. So it's all about chasing the money at the moment to make sure you have a sustainable business. I think the days of raising huge amounts of cash and burning through it in two years and, you know, hey, we have progress. Those days are gone at the moment. But, you know, everybody's waiting for Wednesday to see what Apple announced. They'll make this whole industry, I think, trendy again in a lot of people's eyes. So I do expect that we'll have a strong second half of the year.
[00:08:49.159] Kent Bye: I don't know if you can say or not, but have you been in contact with Apple with doing things with Engage on the Apple platform?
[00:08:54.744] David Whelan: I could tell you, but I'd have to shoot you. No, we haven't so far. So we work on iOS devices already, mobile phones like iPads, iPhones as well. So it would be a pretty easy porting process for us. But they're very secretive. They've only worked with a handful of developers. they'll do all the demos themselves internally but from Wednesday you're going to see that they'll be reaching out to developers like ourselves and making sure we have headsets to pour on because they want to see as many use cases as possible so hopefully they see the Fab by Slim thing because I'd love to work with Apple iTunes and do some stuff with some of their artists.
[00:09:23.888] Kent Bye: Yeah, maybe you could give a bit more context for how the Fatboy Slim project had first come about, because I know that when we did an interview a couple years ago back in May of 2021, you had said that you had a Chemical Brothers video with someone who created a whole lights show, and so I don't know if that had led to a certain sense of dogfooding your own platform to push technologically, but also to do a bit of a pivot of doing more entertainment or more broadly interesting experiential aspects, because there's an educational component and more of the serious games in some sense, An experience that had a psychedelic and fun and you know as Norman Cook self describes it You know trying to be as stupid and irreverent and psychedelic as he could and so you have this whole amazing immersive experience But I'd love to hear a little bit more about that Backstory for how that came about and how you were able to use that to push your platform technologically
[00:10:12.523] David Whelan: Yeah, so we've been in this space a while and we've been spending money on marketing, but we haven't been getting anything in return. You can do everything that you can do with all these corporations, but press don't really take it up. And then you work with a celebrity like Norm and then all the press are very interested in something very different. And he really hits our demographic where a lot of the people who are decision makers in these corporations are in their 40s now. They would have listened to Norm growing up and they all came along to the platform and they're all going oh holy crap i didn't realize this platform could do events in such a manner at such a scale so it was a way to really show off the platform as you know the best events platform available today how it came about actually is being a listed company we have a pr company in london that look after investment communication and the girl there she's the niece of simon cowell you know so i was like i'd like to do a music event you know do you think you can get us a contact you know which i gave her a list of artists but norman was like top of the list i said leave it with me and i'll get back to you and she actually got me the contact for the manager had a conversation with him we brought him in i sent him a headset and i said look i can talk all you like but i'm going to send you a headset because you're not going to understand until you place the headset on your face So he was inside the Engage and we had like a small little demo that we showed him the Chemical Brothers one and we actually made a short Fatboy Slim demo as well just off our own backs and then he said hang on there a moment and he took off the headset and he put it on Norm. Norm was standing next to him. So we started talking to Norm for about 40 minutes and I had Chris Madsen with me. He blew Norm's mind. You know we had him flying, we showed him other music experiences and I said look Norm it's like this. Dark Side of the Moon, when it came out for Pink Floyd, changed the music industry. It was a concept album that no one thought, you know, that anyone would buy or completely blew people's minds. We'll do the same for you if you allow us to run riot, you know, with your back catalogue. And he said, look, I'll do one better. I'll make a brand new mix for you guys. Come over to Brighton. And I stayed in his house with Dave McDermott. He actually performed for us in his kitchen behind a green screen. It was literally just the four of us in the kitchen dancing around crazy. It was a great time, you know, and David James actually pitched storyboard to him and Norm was like, love it. He said, just go as crazy as you like, I like the direction that you're going. He had input, you know, there's a couple of things he wanted changed here and there, but overall the overarching thing he loves. The first thing we pitched to him actually, which he didn't like at all, was kind of an Alice in Wonderland kind of team where, you know, he wanted to give people a psychedelic experience and he hated that and that was a really bad meeting, you know. And I was like, jeez, how are we going to recover this? So then we, David James then just went crazy and said, David, just go off and have a you know, a few beers, whatever gets you loose or whatever, come back in a couple of weeks, we only have one more time to pitch this, and he pitched the idea then, and I hit home. And that's pretty much what you see on the storyboard, is pretty much what you got in the experience at the end.
[00:12:53.850] Kent Bye: And David James McDermott had said that they're also working with Tim Fleming, who is also kind of a liaison in the VR space, but also helping to interpret some of these different concepts or ideas, having worked with Norm before to be able to help facilitate some of that as well.
[00:13:06.420] David Whelan: Yeah, so Tim is the guy that does all the visuals at the actual concerts as well. So we wanted to make sure. We didn't want to replicate a real concert because if you try to replicate the real world, people will go, I'd rather just go to the concert. We wanted to give them something different, a different experience, but definitely a tie-in. So that's why you see the characters from Norm's back catalogue throughout the experience. You see like Fat Boy or you see, what's the guy from Weapon of Choice? Christopher Walken yeah you see him following you around in different locations and then you see inspirations of Norm as well so you see Jim Morrison you know you see other artists in there as well so we wanted to tie it all up neat and tidy now it's not the best visual experience that you'll see in VR but it's such a weird, crazy experience where your attention is drawn every 20 seconds to something different. You know, you're not giving the mind any time to rest. And that's, I think, what people really responded to really well. And then, obviously, the reviews came in, which were fantastic and glowing, you know. So I'm delighted for all the work that, you know, Norm and David put in on the project. The reason why we call him David James, actually, is I've hired six people called David. So we need a way to recognize. So we're actually calling people by their middle name as well. So it's just, I don't know, a lot of people called David with really good skills, I think.
[00:14:18.086] Kent Bye: Yeah, well, what were some of the other things that you were using this concert experience to be able to push your platform technologically? What kind of innovations did you have to do to be able to pull off this 45-minute experience with all the loading and cross-platform? You say the visuals were not that impressive. And I saw it in the PC VR and was also just really shocked and surprised to know that the Quest users were seeing the exact same visuals, which is usually not the case. And so I'd love to hear some of the other innovations that you had to do in order to pull this off.
[00:14:45.495] David Whelan: Yeah, so the Quest actually was our lowest common denominator. So we wanted to make sure that if you're on a Quest, you're on a PC, you're going to see the same experience. And with 50 people with you networked at the same time, which is, you know, it's a pretty heavy task for a Quest 2, which is four or five years old at this stage. We were loading in environments as well seamlessly without actually breaking the audio. So normally when you load from one environment to another, you know, say in VRChat, if you go to some place, you see a loading screen. We couldn't have that because you needed the music to flow all the way through and everything had to be completely synced. so there was a lot of technical challenges to get that right and then the scaling opportunity so as a room of 50 people filled up you had to open up another room and then even if that room opened up it couldn't start from the beginning it had to sync with the other room if people came in late and then there was a load of i think i think was a gig and a half of everybody so one of the things that we did to hide the load was when you get into the experience first you're in a holding area with two bouncers standing in front of you which were like two big massive eyeballs and you hear music in the background so you're kind of waiting in the queue like you would in a and say going to a normal gig and then when it loaded then everything would just explode around you and you're in the concert and you're going crazy so there was lots of things to think about it how is the end user experience we didn't want it to be oh you're on the stage with the person or you're in the audience with people that's kind of boring you need to give people completely different experiences that they will put on the headset for I think it's similar in engaging our enterprise clients where people aren't using our platform for meetings where, oh, we're sitting in a boardroom, we're doing a PowerPoint presentation. You're completely missing the point. They are using it for more immersive daily stand-ups where they have like a big whiteboard or Kanban board every day and they're going in and they're getting their stand-ups done a lot quicker instead of being on Zoom or Skype where if you're on 10, 15 Zoom calls a day, you get very jaded very quickly because you're focused on the camera. How do I look? I don't want to look like I'm bored. That actually takes concentration where you're in an immersive environment you know your avatar always looks professional so you can be sitting in your underpants but still attending like a corporate meeting with your CEO so it does make a difference and makes people more relaxed and I think it does make it more creative as well.
[00:16:44.175] Kent Bye: Well, you have a dynamic where you have all these clients that you have. I'm sure some metrics and things that you're able to sell these companies on. But you have this other component, which is the experiential component of people actually having a direct embodied experience that they have to have this more qualitative experience of what the platform is about. And so what is your method of communicating both ends of the spectrum of both the experiential component, but also like what is the return of investment? What are the other quantified metrics? And maybe you could sort of share the ways that you make sense of your platform in those two ways.
[00:17:14.375] David Whelan: Yeah, so one way client of ours, 3M as an example, during COVID, they were hiring a lot of people remotely and there was a lot of churn with people joining a company after six months, they get a bigger check somewhere, they go away. Whereas normally in a normal environment, when you hire someone, they will come to an office, they make friends with people, they feel part of a family and they'll be more sticky to stay with the company. They started doing onboarding using a virtual experience built by themselves within the platform, and it made people feel more involved in the business, made people feel more involved. And then it turns down, it reduces that churn a bit. So that's one way that immersive technologies can really help. But all the tools that we build for education, we're just placing those in other businesses' hands. So Victory XR, I think you might know Steve, he built a business on the platform where he's doing metaversities funded by Meta, actually. So we have thousands of kids on the platform every day. learning, some of these schools don't even have physical buildings and just use the virtual environment. Not all in VR, it can be on phones and tablets if they want, but they'll go in, they'll create content, and when they want to go on tours or they want to interact with something, they'll use the immersive VR experience as well. So there's lots of elements to engage, I think, We are very much like a Swiss Army knife. If there's a use case out there, we've probably done it with a client in some way. And that's just the power of the platform. And again, I go back to the WordPress analogy. WordPress is used for loads of different things, for dating websites, for business websites, for advertising websites, just for corporate communication. We kind of sit in that bracket as well where we kind of, you know, we do everything. There's some platforms out there that do things better than us in a very bespoke way for meetings, as an example, but I don't think there's anything out there that does as much as we do, as wide as we do, for as many companies as we do.
[00:18:57.807] Kent Bye: Well, I know that certainly you've had different examples of folks using your platform for spatial visualization. But I'm wondering if you've started to get into folks who want to do more data visualization or exploring different relational dynamics of different points. Are there other types of sense-making capabilities to be able to upload node graphs or making sense of relational dynamics and information visualization?
[00:19:19.625] David Whelan: Yeah, we haven't done that much. The way that we focused our business is if someone wants that kind of implementation, they're going to have to pony up for it because it's very bespoke to that organization. So like say a medical institution, as an example, they might want to bring in medical records or data scans, but just for their institution. If they're going to pay us to make that module, absolutely we'll do it. If it's not going to be useful for other clients, we're probably not going to do it because we're so busy with doing the corporate events and onboarding and those kind of elements. We are upgrading our SDK. You can import client models directly in from Unity just by a click of a button now. That's something new that's come out. I know VRChat have actually led the way in many regards for implementations. Neos is actually a fantastic platform for that data visualization. But it's not something that clients were willing to pay for up to this point. That might change in the coming months. We just focus on things that clients are going to pay for.
[00:20:09.730] Kent Bye: Okay. And yeah, what are some of the things that you're working on that's coming up next here?
[00:20:13.840] David Whelan: So you're probably sick of hearing AI. So we're going to have AI characters inside Engage's front of office. So you'll be able to go in. We call it Athena. So you go in, you say, Athena, how do I use Engage? How do I bring in a model? How do I create X, Y, and Z? That's what we're doing. Where we are bringing Athena is that you can build custom data sets. So Kia is an example. They would like AI employees in the platform that can actually answer questions about the cars and where's the nearest dealer and can you change the car to red. And Athena will do that automatically. And in an education setting, we'll have demos in the next couple of weeks where you can go in and say, hey, Athena, change to Benjamin Franklin, and our whole avatar will change, and our voice will change, and you can ask Benjamin Franklin questions, or you'll have AI educators. And I think that's where we're going, really. I think physical buildings for education in the United States, especially, I think a lot of people are going to be homeschooled in immersive environments, and I think going to physical locations is really going to be for more wealthy people, where they're going to get, you know, really good, like Stanford University and MIT and places, they're going to pay up for that. But I think people who have access not to great education, I think they're going to be more and more homeschooled. I think that's going to be a massive growth market for us in the future.
[00:21:24.315] Kent Bye: Well, part of that vision of having more accessibility is making sure that it's available on multiple platforms beyond just VR headsets, because not everybody has VR headsets. And so you have both an application for Android and iPhone. And so the last time we talked, you said you had perhaps some aspirations for having more of web clients or WebXR explicitly. So I'd love to hear any updates for what's happening on the web side of the platform.
[00:21:46.522] David Whelan: Yeah, we'll have WebXR application, I think, available in the next few weeks. It won't be connected directly to the Engage standalone for the moment. I see it as a half step into corporations looking to experiment with spatial computing. So you'd be on your desktop, you'd be walking around these environments, you can hold meetings in there if you want. So it only gets them thinking about how do we use spatial locations in our corporation. But it is a way for us to grow much, much quicker as well, where a corporation might only have 2,000 headsets, but they have 20,000 employees. And we're just going, okay, well, you can buy 20,000 WebXR licenses, and then for the people who really need the immersive stuff, we have all the training, development modules here available for you if you want to do that. So it is about broadening our services that we can sell, you know, and just make sure that revenue line keeps growing, because that's what investors are looking for at the moment. You know, they're not looking for... companies to spend all their investment cash and only get one or two clients, what they're looking for is, who's actually paying for this? Is it repeatable? Is it scalable? And I think people are looking at us now are seeing the growth over the last two years and going, do you know what? There's a business that is actually scaling and delivering on pretty much like minimal funding that we've had to date.
[00:22:56.575] Kent Bye: Right. And finally, what do you think the ultimate potential of these immersive technologies and the future of education and communication might be and what it might be able to enable?
[00:23:08.957] David Whelan: So remote hybrid working, there's lots of issues with video communication. I think like people today, you know, say I'll Zoom you later or Skype you later. I think three years from now, a lot more people will say I'll engage with you later or I'll physically go in and meet you. So that's one area that we kind of want to dominate. In the education space, as I said, we're getting a lot of universities and schools, private schools coming onto our platform and not actually having physical buildings anymore. We've thousands of kids every day, actually, in the platform who do their lessons within Engage. And, you know, that's how they prefer it. They don't like being on Zoom. Possibilities are endless. Like I was standing with you eight years ago, you know, and people are asking like, where is this technology going to go? I don't think People would have thought it would have been as slow to adopt, but with Apple coming into this space, making things trendy, I think you're going to see a whole other renaissance now in the next five or six years that's going to be good for the industry as a whole. And we're going to get lots of people coming to us with really interesting and wacky ideas. Not everything is going to work, and we've done a lot of stuff that hasn't worked out. We got paid for it, but it hasn't worked out. But we've learned along the way. We're very much... here right now at 1997 in the adoption of the internet. We have a lot of corporations now going, my metaverse strategy is, I'm buying this location, I'm putting my logo up, and that's all I need to do. That's the same as businesses 25 years ago going, I bought a domain name for 50 grand, I put my logo on top, and I put my phone number underneath. those businesses are gone. The businesses that really use the technology to its advantage are like eBay, Amazon, those companies are dominating, you know, Facebook as well, you know, so you're going to see the next Facebook, Amazon, YouTube, those kind of companies coming. I think the birth of those companies is going to happen in the next three years where I think the last five, six years has all been proof of concept, you know, making connections, you know, who's surviving, you know, what technologies are interesting, but I think the next three to five years you're actually going to see the next dominant players in the spatial computing space.
[00:25:01.863] Kent Bye: Awesome. Is there anything else that's left unsaid that you'd like to say to the broader immersive community?
[00:25:06.573] David Whelan: No, I've missed you all. I suppose like I've been stuck in Ireland for the last three and a half years. This is my second trip to the U.S. this year. I'm going to be over here a lot more as well. But it's great to reconnect with everybody and see the faces and seeing businesses, you know, join together and see like really good tech people, you know, still in demand. So it's an exciting growth area. And I think just what we're seeing the last three or four months is a bit of a flip. I think it's going to be, as I said, an explosion second half this year, especially in the last quarter.
[00:25:32.680] Kent Bye: Are you hanging around for the Apple event to attend in person next week?
[00:25:36.983] David Whelan: I'd love that. I can get an invite anyway. Chris Madsen has better ties in Apple, but as soon as it's out anyway, I'll have the credit card in my hand, buy a few headsets, we'll get fat by Slim running on it and see can I get some Apple people in.
[00:25:50.774] Kent Bye: Awesome. Well, David, thanks so much for joining me today to help break down all the latest updates of what's happening with Engage. And yeah, congratulations on the Fatboy Slim experience. You know, it's one of my peak experiences in VR that I've had so far, and it was a real joy and pleasure to go through it and help break it down with both Dave James and Norm. And yeah, thanks for helping provide a lot more details and updates for what's happening with Engage. So thank you.
[00:26:12.552] David Whelan: No worries. Always a pleasure. Thank you.
[00:26:14.909] Kent Bye: Thanks again for listening to this episode of the voices of your podcast. And if you enjoy the podcast and please do spread the word, tell your friends and consider becoming a member of the Patreon. This is a, this is part of podcast. And so I do rely upon donations from people like yourself in order to continue to bring this coverage. So you can become a member and donate today at patreon.com slash voices of VR. Thanks for listening.
