I interviewed director Vincent Abert about Walking Alone Text You When I’m Home that showed at IDFA DocLab 2024. See the transcript down below for more context on our conversation.
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[00:00:05.458] Kent Bye: The Voices of VR Podcast. Hello, my name is Kent Bye, and welcome to the Voices of VR Podcast. It's a podcast that looks at the structures and forms of immersive storytelling and the future of spatial computing. You can support the podcast at patreon.com slash voicesofvr. So in today's episode, we're going to be covering a piece called Walking Alone, Text You When I'm Home, which is a part of the Immersive Nonfiction Competition at IFA Doc Lab this year. So this is a VR piece that's blend between these photogrammetry snapshots where you're watching these volumetric capture reconstructions of this oral testimony that is given from one woman who experienced a number of different sexual harassment experiences in these different contexts. You're hearing these stories, but they're also being reconstructed and reenacted in this kind of like volumetric capture, but also these kind of like photogrammetry captured scenes as well. There's also like a first person perspective scene at the end to kind of tie it all together as well. So that's what we're coming on today's episode of the Voices of VR podcast. So this interview with Vincent happened on Tuesday, November 19th, 2024 at IFA Doc Lab in Amsterdam, Netherlands. So with that, let's go ahead and dive right in.
[00:01:19.758] Vincent Abert: Yeah, thank you. Thank you for having me, Kent. I'm Vincent and I'm working in the realm of journalism as an editor and author, usually. And I just did my first VR immersive piece, which I started actually in university, like researching the project and all the stuff. And now, like I think six or five years later, it's finished. I'm really happy that it's in ITFA right now.
[00:01:47.332] Kent Bye: Great, and maybe you could give a bit more context as to your background and your journey into this space.
[00:01:52.421] Vincent Abert: Yeah, my background is actually more in traditional film and documentary. So I've been working in film and documentary for a long time, but more as a first AD and like in the back office and all that stuff. Then I studied film with a focus on media in Potsdam-Babelsberg. And this is where I got in touch with VR filmmaking and also got the opportunity to do some first pilot projects. Like I said, my research in the project started way earlier than me getting into the VR realm. So I had this big stack of interviews on the topic and then decided to do the project in VR, like right now on the festival and watch the film that really impressed me. So then I decided to start off the project.
[00:02:44.108] Kent Bye: You said you saw a VR piece that really impressed you. What were some of the pieces that made you want to get in and make your own VR piece?
[00:02:52.775] Vincent Abert: Unfortunately, I don't have the names right now, but I can describe them. It was mostly documentary pieces. Maybe you know them. I think they're quite popular. One is about a person that is talking about sexual harassment in India, and the film There's one scene where you sit in a train in India and the person is narrating in a voiceover about what happened to her, which is a really touching and intimate story. And you have at the same time mostly male passengers. like sitting around you and like really watching you and looking into your face which is kind of like disturbing in combination like with this like intimate story and this like was for example one project that really struck me and that really showed off the potential that I'm interested in in VR, which is mostly like having intimate stories combined with the presence of other human being, which is, yeah, I think that could be really good in Chieftain with VR technology.
[00:03:56.760] Kent Bye: Yeah. So you said that you were at university and so maybe could give a bit more context as to where we were at, what we were studying and then, you know, how this project first started to come about.
[00:04:06.574] Vincent Abert: Like I said, I got in contact with some creative technologists that were also studying in university. Then there were seminars on that topic. I didn't have in mind to do the project in VR. It was the research I had. My project is about sexual harassment and it is about people talking about their experiences with sexual harassment, but more like a conversation, more like when you're sitting with someone who's really opening up and telling you stuff that she experienced. you are just able to listen what was really important for me also like as a male person who's not really in a political and also like in a personal way has that problems so the medium gave me the opportunity to listen and don't ask questions and just being like within the story within the perspective of the person and just like learning through that
[00:05:08.325] Kent Bye: Yeah, how did you become interested in this as a topic to start to research and start to really explore through the medium of VR?
[00:05:16.024] Vincent Abert: Yeah, I was talking to a lot of close female friends about that and at one point I realized that women who experience sexual harassment, they usually don't talk to men about that topic. Not just only because they don't feel safe to do it, but also there's usually not that interest from the side of men towards women relating that topic. So I realized that when I started talking to a lot of close friends about that, they were really opening up really strongly. And we had like really long conversations about that. And then I just started recording the conversations like with no clear like project in mind. I just had like all these interviews. And when I got to know like the VR technology and what its potential at some point, I just thought like, Having the possibility to be in a really isolated space with somebody for a certain time, which is what my project does. You sit in an abstract room with a person and you're just forced in a way to listen to her. That's kind of the situation I had when I was talking to my friends and this is what I was trying to achieve. The same situation I had when they were opening up to me and talking to me and I was just listening without questioning anything. Just sitting there and hearing the stories, that's the thing I wanted to achieve in VR and I think that worked out.
[00:06:50.920] Kent Bye: So it sounds like that you were having these conversations with your female friends and as you were talking to them, you were recording these conversations and that in the piece, did you end up using those same recordings and then like have either them or other actors like reenact them? It seems like that you were starting with audio as a baseline. So maybe you could talk a little bit about your process of developing the arc of the story and then starting to add the point cloud volumetric representations that you have, but also like the volumetric capture that you have with the reenactments of the stories.
[00:07:24.755] Vincent Abert: Yeah, it's a good question because I did the interviews like in German and then in the process of like making the film I realized I had to redo some of them. So this is what I did and I'm not the only one on the project. There's like some co-creators which are unfortunately not here anymore today and they did the interview because I already did some interviews with some people and I had the feeling like it had to be somebody else. So we redid the interviews and then they were, and this is what was really important to me during the whole process, I had the feeling I want to leave the interviews and the conversation as close as they were to the original. Of course, there was some editing taking place because you had to shorten it here and there, but mostly the parts, the three stories I'm exploring, they are pretty much as they were told in the situation of the interview. And then for the version you saw now at IDFA, it's the English version. So I did a synchronization with also a friend of mine who's an actor and she also had experienced sexual harassment and it worked out pretty well. She redid the interview as close as possible to the ones we did in German. And then to the other part of your question, it was a pretty technological advanced project for me also not having experience in all that computer and digital art stuff. So I had to learn a lot about that. I turned to LiDAR scanning because I'm really interested in that technology because it's a kind of way to be in a way photorealistic because yeah, for people who don't know what LiDAR scanning is, LiDAR scanning is like, yeah, you do a scan of the real environment around you and there's like pixels for every point and object that is like around you, like in the real space you do the scan. And so the aesthetic is pretty abstract and kind of like, eerie but the places you scan they're almost like in a way photorealistic as they are and that was what really interested me because we went to some of the locations where the sexual harassment took place not all of them like just like one or two the rest is actually like some other spaces because like some of the stories take place in New York and other locations but we wanted to bring this kind of documentary vibe to it working with real locations.
[00:10:02.895] Kent Bye: Yeah, and how did you do the volumetric scans of the actors when they were being put into this LIDAR scanned spaces and contexts that then have this kind of point cloud representation? What were you using in order to do the scanning of the humans?
[00:10:15.697] Vincent Abert: Yeah, we did like a little complex setup with like, I don't know, I forgot the technological term of it, but it was like having like video cameras, like I think 10 video cameras rigged on the mount. And then we were all like simultaneously filming so that we had like 10 recordings of the acting. It was a company that did that for us, the VoluCap, and they made a 3D moving object out of it. And the idea was to have all the freedom in the 3D program afterwards. So I really built a real 3D environment. I could position the virtual camera in. and having like really different perspectives and I saw that digital filmmaking workflow in an other project that was presented at my school and I was really interested in that and yeah it was a lot of work and it could have been like there were maybe ways I know right now to achieve that easier but yeah it was a really good freedom to have like every object in the film being 3D and being to yeah explore it like in the 3D environment then.
[00:11:25.953] Kent Bye: Yeah, I'd love to dig into each of these three vignettes and just kind of unpack them just a little bit. It sounds like that for each of these encounters, they're kind of like close calls where, you know, there's a threat of something that is about to happen, but they're able to get away without having things kind of escalate even more. So just sexual harassment, not turning into sexual assault, in other words. And so maybe you could describe each of the three different scenarios that you're showing here in your piece.
[00:11:54.184] Vincent Abert: Yeah, so the film is things that I was mostly concerned about when I was talking with female people about that was that sometimes when people tell their stories of like being harassed and nothing like really really really bad happens the other person tends to say okay yeah you were lucky good thing that nothing happened but from my experience like when talking with these people it's like the difference like it's really really traumatizing and really it robs you of a kind of like freedom of moving without concern in the public space And this is what I really wanted to explore because these kind of stories don't get recognized much. And like I said, extremely traumatizing to the people. And yeah, this is what I wanted to bring out in the movie, that it's not always about the baddest thing that can happen.
[00:12:54.164] Kent Bye: Yeah, thanks for elaborating on that, because I think that's a really great point that we tend to fall into that diminishing framing of that something worse didn't happen, but that doesn't take away the fact that it was extremely traumatizing. And I think that's part of what you're exploring in this piece.
[00:13:08.668] Vincent Abert: Sorry, if I can add a little bit on that. And it's also like from the perspective of male people who haven't been in contact with these kind of encounters and can't like understand how it feels. If there's like a big misunderstanding on that because me as myself as a male person I will never like something like that will never happen to me and Yeah, that was like really important to me to go into that and explore these kind of emotional feelings attached to that experience Yeah, and so as you were making this piece maybe could talk around some of your collaborators and other people that were involved and helping you to tell these stories and Yeah, it was mostly a lot of friends involved in the project and also friends that are now my friends, because the project really took a really, really long time. Nobody was paid and we really had to have this vision and this motivation for everybody to bring their self into the project. And this was what I really was trying to do. For example, my close friend of mine, Carolin Hupfer, who's also a journalist at DW, she did most of the interviews in the end. Yeah, like I said, which was really, really important for me to have another person than me and also another female person than me asking the questions and reacting to what was told. So that was obviously a big part. And then apart from the storytelling and the research and the journalistic part, it was like so much technical stuff. So I was like working together with the film university Babelsberg, especially with the creative technologies course. which there were several people involved helping me setting up this Unity environment and all that stuff. And yeah, a lot of different partners because of these really different technologies that were used and ended up in the film. So yeah, it was quite a journey.
[00:15:10.546] Kent Bye: And so your piece starts off with this woman who's with her friend or boyfriend and she's walking home and she has this man who grabs her and she's able to escape but she kind of walks through what was going through her mind and just the fears and it was a terrifying situation. I think in the moment it felt like that she was maybe not fully understanding what was happening and then eventually realized that she needed to just get out and escape and that she was able to get away. And so there's a number of different scenes starting off in this room and then you're kind of walking through and retelling the story. And like you said, you're like have a background in journalism. And so you're like capturing the core of this oral history testimony and then translating it into a spatial context so that we can. bear witness to these scenes as they're unfolding through these volumetric reenactments. And so, yeah, I'd love it if you can maybe elaborate on beginning this piece with that specific scenario and some of the considerations from a narrative perspective that you wanted to start this off with that particular story as you continue to explore it with the other two vignettes as well.
[00:16:17.185] Vincent Abert: Yeah, like the way I arranged the stories. Yeah, I have to think about that. Like why I put the stories in the order I did it.
[00:16:26.127] Kent Bye: Yeah, yeah. And just to kind of elaborate on what you saw as kind of the core of what was being communicated into those stories and, you know, kind of the arc of, you know, as an audience, we're kind of having an opportunity to bear witness to these scenes and the terror and trauma that was experienced. And then, you know, so there's a progression through these different types of scenarios and other scenario where a woman's in a park and this guy is just, talking to her for a really long time and he's kind of following her and stalking her in a way that is just kind of creepy and there's this like terror of like what's going to happen and then he turns away and walks away so i'm just trying to get a sense of the arc of each of these different stories of what you saw as the core of these harassment experiences and how you wanted to explore that through this vr piece and through these three stories and yeah just kind of the the way that you're telling this larger story through each of these three vignettes yeah
[00:17:19.321] Vincent Abert: So I think like all the stories, all the three stories, they share similarities, obviously. And like for me, the key point where I decided for these three stories, because they are all from the same protagonist, it's a friend of mine, and she experienced like way more of these three stories. I think there were like 10 of that caliber. It's crazy. But the stories I choose, they were all having this like situation where she was thinking what could have happened. And it's like all these three stories could have turned out differently in each of these stories. I mean, like nothing happened in the end. But there is something that could happen and that robs her of her like freedom to move freely and also like to decide how to behave in that situation. I mean she herself said like now when I look at the stories I told you like with the distance I could have like acted differently and it seems obvious to me that I could have done something different but when you're in that situation like all the stuff that you hear that you experienced as a woman or as a victim that come to your head and Yeah, this is kind of the discourse or the point I wanted to make it's like it's not that it's about something that happened or like a violence that happened it's more about the feeling you have or you get when like moving in the public and and having all these stories and narratives in your head and yeah, this is what I was kind of like reflected in her monologues.
[00:19:03.107] Kent Bye: Yeah, so if I kind of recap what you just said there is that there's these physical situations that reach a certain point where she has this field of possibilities that she's exploring in her mind of like what could have happened and this could have happened and that could have happened and so the way that you were exploring that within the VR piece is that you're showing the recreation of the physical event, but yet there's the narration of her recounting the aspect of her story and sharing what was happening inside of her experience. And so it's just a way to be put into place to bear witness to the physical alterations of harassment, but then also hear what's going through her mind through all the different ways that this could go even worse. And so it's like that psychological terror of the possibility space.
[00:19:50.285] Vincent Abert: Yeah, of course. And the main thing I wanted to really achieve is, as a viewer, being in the spot of having to listen and having this feeling of emotional empathy towards that person, which is not easy to achieve in everyday life. If you don't have a person in your community that is opening up to you about these really nuanced feelings and emotions, I think you, especially we as men, are never able to fully understand it on an emotional level. And this is what makes VR so interesting for me, for these kind of stories, because I had these conversations, I read a lot of articles and I also saw traditional 2D movies about that. But from my perspective, everything that is said about these kinds of types of sexual harassment is sometimes logical and there are arguments. But the part that is often left out is how is the person feeling? And also being able to feel yourself not feeling what the other person is feeling but feeling to be in a situation where somebody is opening up and there is like emotions that you can't rationally explain. It's just like these emotions are there and they're okay and I'm not in a situation of questioning that because I'm so close to the person and yeah that's the kind of situation I wanted to achieve.
[00:21:22.216] Kent Bye: When you were thinking around these reenactments, you choose to do a third person perspective where you see both of the characters with these different interactions. Because in VR, you can take the first person perspective. Had you explored the possibility of telling the story from a first person perspective of the viewpoint from the female character? Or was it just easier logistically to do from a third person? Or yeah, just wondering if you explored the third person versus first person as a way of telling the story.
[00:21:50.481] Vincent Abert: Yeah, third person. Actually, I never had the first person in mind because from my own experience when I'm watching VR pieces, I really have a problem with this proximity thing. And for me, there's a really small margin of being overwhelmed in VR. And I really like the pieces who are working sensitively with this kind of experience of proximity. So this was like maybe the first thing. But secondly, like I said, it was really important for me to having this kind of situation of yourself being with that other person, but not as a dialogue situation or a situation where you are as a viewer like directly addressed in a way. It was just like you are kind of in a space where somebody is opening up and you can't do anything else than listen. And when I've worked with the first person perspective, it would have been like being addressed as a viewer, as a subject. And this is something that I want not to do.
[00:22:57.364] Kent Bye: Yeah, that makes sense. So you mentioned that you have some background or training in journalism, and I'm just curious to hear your thoughts of using VR as a medium. If you consider what you're doing as a form of journalism or immersive journalism, or if it's documentary, I'd just love to hear you elaborate on the practice of journalism and the way that you're telling stories like this.
[00:23:19.100] Vincent Abert: Yeah, so like I said, VR can be... really yeah, how do you say that like aggressive medium you have to be really careful to not put too much of spectacle or like sensation into the experience because I think then you quickly lose that's just my personal opinion like the focus and the distance to the stuff that's happening and that might be like a thing like from my journalistic background that I somehow really like to keep a critical distance to what's happening and actually to be focused on the story and what's happening but also not being overwhelmed and also being able to think about in a way what you're watching and Yeah, and I think that's really important and that's what I was trying to do in my piece Yeah, and what's been some of the reactions to your piece that you've had so far? I didn't have any other than being selected to the IDFA. So yeah, I didn't have the time to watch any other pieces. And also it's really hard to, like there's so much stuff to see here at IDFA, which this goes for me and also for the other participants. I was like talking to other filmmakers, but most of the time I haven't seen their pieces and they didn't saw mine. So I think, yeah, you might be like one of the first person I've been talking about that right now.
[00:24:46.924] Kent Bye: Yeah, some exhibition spaces they'll have like a dedicated spot where people will go see it and you'll know that they have just watched your piece but because you're a part of a VR gallery that means that there's like pods where people could be watching one of like five or six pieces and you would either have to like stand right next to them and then they would have to know that you're the director so it's just a little bit more difficult to have that direct interaction with the audience in a exhibition context like this but Yeah, I feel like this piece has this experience of creating this unease of watching these scenarios as they're unfolding. And it's really helpful to talk to you just to kind of unpack more of how the project came about. Because I think that was part of like, you know, when I saw the piece, I actually thought that this was created by like a female when I first saw it. And then when I saw that it was created by a man, I was like, oh, wow, like, well, what's the story here? And so then it became more of like, what's the integrity under which this was produced to ensure that there's an accurate capture of these or i don't know there was just some of the things that i was thinking about and it's really helpful just to hear how this project came about so that was some of the questions i had after i was watching it and having the conversation with you also kind of revealing my own biases of the way that i had put on a hierarchy of sexual harassment versus sexual assault and like one's worse than the other and so having this kind of diminishing impact. And so, yeah, actually just having this conversation and being caught in that moment is sort of like my big takeaway and a part of the way that you wanted to explore this in the first place in a way that I haven't seen as many pieces that are specifically around this sexual harassment piece unless it is a training video. that's trying to take more of a perspective taking or first person perspective or the training scenario, I think is a little bit different than what this is, which is just like starting to document and archive these experiences that happen, but just like for many different reasons just aren't talked about. So yeah, I just really appreciate, you know, having access to those stories and makes me want to watch it again knowing, because I think the first time that I watch a piece, it's like trying to understand like the structure and the forms and, So I was trying to find the through line of the stories in a way that something could happen but doesn't happen. And it's like the psychological terror of that possibility space. And I think talking to you, I have more of a clear understanding of what the piece is than after I saw it and trying to understand it a little bit more. So it's interesting how... sometimes a piece will stand on its own for me and other times I will appreciate it more, understand it more after having a conversation. I think this is a type of piece like that, that I'm understanding more of the dimensions of it after having this conversation.
[00:27:26.352] Vincent Abert: Maybe I can like add something because you were asking about like the selections of the stories and just came up with something because like the end of the story, when you are at like the train station again, there's a thing I wanted to like bring the viewer to. And this is, um,
[00:27:43.516] Kent Bye: Yeah, because that is a little bit more of a first person perspective. Yeah, because it put me into a spot of like, you know, looking at like, oh, wow, I could be taken down in this space. And you're waiting alone at a train stop and this other man's, you know, walking and it's in a pretty isolated space. But then other people come in and that makes me feel more safe. So you do actually use a first person perspective in a way that gave me that.
[00:28:05.393] Vincent Abert: You're right, you're right. Yeah. So I was like definitely using it in the end. And this was what I was trying to play with. There was like this kind of unengaged third person perspective, like established, like also from the start. But then without changing anything of the camera positioning, because the camera positioning in the first place and the train station is also pretty random. And then having like the person coming towards you is like switching that perspective. So it's coming from a third person perspective. through the person that is coming to you into a subjective one. But yeah, it's interesting that you say that because I wasn't sure if that's like really obvious, but I wanted to explore, and this is what I was talking about with proximity before, like how proximity and the human body that is getting close to you is changing like your narrative perspective and your like engagement into the space.
[00:29:03.229] Kent Bye: that's something i was really interested about like from the first place and i was like playing with in this piece yeah part of what happens when i come to festivals like this is i'll watch like 20 to 30 pieces and then do 20 to 30 interviews with folks and i'll have to like kind of remember the piece and so i had a distinct memory of the first two because i was watching the stories of other people but i was having trouble remembering what the third story was and i think it's part because it was like a first person story where there wasn't any protagonist that I was watching. But I was put into the scene from the first person. But I'm still having trouble remembering, what was the audio in that third section? Was it just the ambient sound of it happening? Or was there other narration that was happening as a part of that story?
[00:29:43.827] Vincent Abert: So it's actually three stories that are told in this abstract space where you are the third person observer. And then it switches to the train station, which is not really a kind of story. It's kind of more like a fictional. space because there's like this person like you stand on the train station and then just nothing is there it's nighttime it's kind of like a documentary scene and then from the distance there's somebody like smoking walking slowly towards you and there's basically nothing said it's just a documentary scene but yeah the person is approaching you is approaching you but not coming towards you it's just sitting down on the bench so nothing happens again and then there's a voice over again from my protagonist where she's kind of like reflecting on something that that is more like an abstract reflection on on her experiences and this kind of makes the end
[00:30:38.101] Kent Bye: OK. So I think I still only remember two of the stories. One of the stories is a woman who is grabbed after she's going home, and then another story where she's followed into the park and has this encounter. What was the third story?
[00:30:51.931] Vincent Abert: No, that, the, the. Or the second. The second was like in the train, like where she was like with a friend and they were sitting in the train and there was like this drunk person like insulting them. Yeah, which is really brutal. Yeah, it's kind of the most brutal story of the piece, I think.
[00:31:09.164] Kent Bye: Yeah, so she's at a bar or she has an encounter and then on the train he comes in and starts to grab and grope at them in the train and that she was saying that they were fighting and pushing back but that the biggest thing was that no one really did anything that they everyone was just like watching without actually intervening or even saying anything about it and that cultural acceptance of that was part of that trauma.
[00:31:32.697] Vincent Abert: Yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah.
[00:31:35.719] Kent Bye: Cool. Well, where do you plan on taking this next?
[00:31:38.986] Vincent Abert: I don't have any plans yet, but we've been accepted to the Human Rights Film Festival, which is taking place in Warschau. So this is the next destination. But yeah, we just finished the project. It was like a long process and we just also started to get it to festivals. And yeah, this is the word premiere of the project at IDFA. It was like mostly one of the first things we wanted to go to and it worked out fortunately. Yeah, so this festival thing is just starting right now for the film.
[00:32:10.843] Kent Bye: Great, and what do you think the ultimate potential of virtual reality and immersive storytelling, immersive journalism might be, and what it might be able to enable?
[00:32:21.757] Vincent Abert: um yeah like the ultimate potential like i think there's like i mean it's a medium like and with mediums you can do like infinitely different possibilities to do stuff and like the project we did it's just one and the potentials i see like talking about like proximity and the human body and feeling the presence of human bodies in spaces this is just like one potential So yes, other potentials might be explored, but regarding to journalism, what I find most interesting is there's a big commitment to go into a VR experience. It's a complete difference to the main medium nowadays, also for the youth, like the smartphone. You have it just in your pocket, you put it out, you watch some TikTok videos. and there's almost no commitment to it. But when you go into a VR experience, you have to set up the glasses, you have to sit down somewhere, put on the headphones, start the experience. And this commitment also, in my opinion, leads to a form of intensified focus. You're not able to switch to another film that quickly, like you do with smartphones, where you just swipe up to the next video. So I think that changes the way we can do storytelling. We don't have to immediately in videos or movies get to the most important or best scene to keep the audience engaged. You can play around with slow forms of developing a story or introducing characters. And I think that's really important also for journalistic videos because you kind of get rid of this burden of engaging storytelling. It can be a burden, so this is what I find really interesting for journalism.
[00:34:17.467] Kent Bye: Great. Is there anything else? I'm losing my voice. Is there anything else that's left unsaid that you'd like to say to the broader immersive community?
[00:34:26.539] Vincent Abert: No, I don't think so. I think you asked all the right questions. It was really fun having that interview with you. Awesome.
[00:34:34.065] Kent Bye: And Vincent, thanks so much for joining me here today on the podcast to unpack Walking Home Alone, Text You When I'm Home. Yeah, I think just really interesting to hear your journey into the piece and how it was developed and the challenge of telling the story of the psychological terror of something that might happen and then watching those three scenarios and then at the end having a chance to kind of like be in that space, it gave me a direct experience of it. Yeah, and I think it's just a really important stories to be told. So thanks again for taking the time to make the piece and to sit down with me this morning to help break it all down. So thank you.
[00:35:08.939] Vincent Abert: Thank you very much, Kent.
[00:35:10.439] Kent Bye: Thanks again for listening to the Voices of VR podcast. And I really would encourage you to consider supporting the work that I'm doing here at the Voices of VR. It's been over a decade now, and I've published over 1,500 interviews. And all of them are freely available on the voicesofvr.com website with transcripts available. This is just a huge repository of oral history, and I'd love to continue to expand out and continue to cover what's happening in the industry, but I've also got over a thousand interviews in my backlog as well. So lots of stuff to dig into in terms of the historical development of the medium of virtual and augmented reality and these different structures and forms of immersive storytelling. So please do consider becoming a member at patreon.com slash voices of VR. Thanks for listening.
