Kai Frazier is a history teacher who decided to make a complete pivot into creating accessible and diverse educational content and kits for education. She curates 360 videos and produces content aimed for underrepresented minorities to be able to give them an experience of what’s possiible for their career trajectory.
Originally launched as “Curated by Kai”, but recently rebranded as Kai XR, Kai is using her direct experiences of the pains of being an underfunded and underappreciated public school teacher, and is creating a set of tools, materials, and experiences to help bootstrap an immersive education revolution.
She’s certainty someone to watch who is taking a different approach than most, but in a way that is really connected to the needs and desires of her target demographic.
LISTEN TO THIS EPISODE OF THE VOICES OF VR PODCAST
This is a listener-supported podcast through the Voices of VR Patreon.
[00:00:05.452] Kent Bye: The Voices of VR Podcast. Hello, my name is Kent Bye, and welcome to the Voices of VR Podcast. So continuing on in my series of looking at the VR for Good movement, and specifically in this last section, looking at different projects that are bringing about different technological innovations, or doing things that are a little bit different than other projects that are out there. So on today's episode, I'm going to be featuring Kai Frazier. She's got a company called Curated by Kai. And what she does is she's creating these different kits for educators. So low cost Google cardboard kits and different content. So she's really trying to increase the amount of accessibility for a lot of these immersive technologies and to understand what teachers need and to provide different either curriculum or kits for people to actually build their VR headsets and to allow them to use the cell phones that students often have. to be able to explore different immersive content. And so as you think about the technological diffusion of virtual reality, you have innovators, the early adopters, the early majority, the late majority, and the laggards. And so in the education space, they don't tend to have enough resources to really be on the bleeding edge of innovation. It usually takes a number of years for technology to diffuse out into these educational spaces, especially when there's very limited funds to be able to buy different equipment. So Kai, being a former history teacher and educator, she's really trying to create affordable, accessible, not only content VR kits for people to buy, but also the content. So being able to go out and actually produce 360 video content that is trying to show different aspects of either history museums or parts of culture that may not have a lot of other content that's being produced for. And so she's really trying to increase the relevance and the accessibility to the content to students around the world. So that's what we're covering on today's episode of the Voices of VR podcast. So this interview with Kai happened on Thursday, May 16th, 2019, and it was at the UN Women Global Voices VR Film Festival at the GoPro offices in San Mateo, California. So with that, let's go ahead and dive right in.
[00:02:12.970] Kai Fraizer: Hi, my name is Kai Frazier. I'm the founder of Curated by Kai, where we create inclusive virtual reality classrooms for students.
[00:02:21.105] Kent Bye: So maybe you could tell me a bit about your background and what your journey was into virtual reality.
[00:02:25.905] Kai Fraizer: Sure. So I have no tech background. I am a history teacher by trade. I worked in history museums on top of that. And VR for me was a way for my students who live next to museums, they could not afford the field trips to go to museums. So I wanted to make them virtual reality field trips so they could explore the cool things I was seeing in history museums. Had no tech background, so I was going to make this a company. So I sold my house, my car, everything I owned, and I moved across the country from Washington DC to the Bay Area so I could dive head into VR.
[00:02:55.693] Kent Bye: Wow, and so maybe you could tell me a bit more about your first VR experience and what that was like that made you realize what the potential of this might be.
[00:03:03.556] Kai Fraizer: Sure, my first VR experience was at the U.S. Holocaust Museum where I worked and it was about a Syrian family. It was called For My Son and it took you through the life of a Syrian refugee and I really enjoyed it. I also worked with a lot of Syrian refugees at the Holocaust Museum and one in particular found refuge in Berlin and even in Berlin he was still making an app to help people through immigration, and with Civil War, he was still working for the greater good, and that was my motivation to, his name was Omar, and Omar motivated me to actually dive headfirst into VR with no tech background.
[00:03:36.672] Kent Bye: Great. And so it sounds like that you're trying to increase access to spaces that people don't have access to. And so in some ways you're able to capture a context and a space and democratize the access to that experience. And so maybe you could talk a bit about why is that important and what does that mean for you to have access and to democratize these experiences?
[00:03:58.218] Kai Fraizer: Sure. For me as a teacher, when students use VR, they have a 90% comprehension rate of the curriculum, and that's huge for a lot of students who traditionally do poor at school. So with VR, however, it's so expensive. The headsets, even me, I have dreadlocks. I can't even put the headset on my head, so I can't do a lot of the experiences. A lot of the experiences are focusing around empathy, and that's triggering for a lot of kids with challenging backgrounds like myself. I was an at-risk student myself, so I don't do a lot of these VR experiences. So I wanted to make VR experiences that reflect the worlds of my students, that could give them access to the world around them, and I wanted to make sure that they could afford it and that it was accessible. Wi-Fi is one of those things, too, that we think everybody has that actually isn't. So a lot of the schools that we go to, they struggle with just getting the connection to run these VR rigs. So we are making accessible, low-cost VR so students have access to the world around them, and then they get to see new jobs, careers, opportunities that they never knew existed.
[00:04:51.250] Kent Bye: Yeah, and it was interesting because you had mentioned the Google Cardboard. And within certain levels of the VR industry, the Google Cardboard hardly gets mentioned. But in a lot of ways, the Cardboard is giving a lot of people maybe their first and only virtual reality experiences. And so maybe you could talk a bit about the importance of something like Google Cardboard for your vision of what you're doing right now.
[00:05:13.092] Kai Fraizer: Yeah, so I get a lot of Google Cardboard or Cardboard in general is poisoning the well because it's making lower cost VR experiences. But for a lot of my students, I've seen them watch VR experiences on the lowest quality on YouTube, and they get a lot out of it. So we don't want to put them in those low quality experiences. But for a lot of schools, they can't afford these rigs. They can barely afford the cell phone sometimes to run these. But the students, most of them have cell phones. So what I do is I put them in pairs, and we put them in Google Cardboard, and they're able to have access to VR. And for a lot of the kids, their first thing is, how do I make the cardboard? So it gives them their first touch to STEM as well. So they want to make VR, make the headsets, and then they can see new jobs in STEM, depending on the VR experiences that we can offer them through the cardboard.
[00:05:55.456] Kent Bye: Yeah, so you were talking about showing these students someone who is very similar to them, but in a specific position, like a job so that they can imagine themselves, that this could be a potential future for them. So there seems to be a certain amount of this future dreaming or to give them an experience that allows them to open up their mind to see what's possible. Maybe you could talk about about what you see is happening there and your philosophy around giving them access to these people that could be potential role models for them.
[00:06:26.141] Kai Fraizer: Sure, the tagline for my company is Dream Big, Explore the World because for these students, we want them to think about a world beyond their circumstances and students can't aspire to something if they don't know it exists. So for me personally, I never even saw a college until I was at college. I didn't even know that different colleges were possible I could go to. For a lot of my students, they don't even know these jobs are available. They don't know how to get a job in VR. They don't know how to do any of these things. And we always think these VR experiences have to be these huge productions. But for some of my students, especially in California, they want to know what snow looks like. They want to know what it's like. In my old school, I had a lot of students whose parents had cleaning businesses. all they knew is that they could be cleaners. They could have their own house care, a household cleaning company. From working in museums, one of the jobs that's most coveted is a conservator who uses cleaning of science to preserve artifacts. They never knew that job existed. So with VR, we can take a camera in a 360 environment, show them that job, and then have the critical thinking discussions that are not happening in classrooms a lot so they can make these connections and actually dream about these new worlds they never knew existed.
[00:07:31.542] Kent Bye: Yeah, and you had mentioned that you had got some footage of Michelle Obama. Maybe you could talk a bit about what context you were recording Michelle Obama in.
[00:07:38.603] Kai Fraizer: Sure. So we filmed the official Obama portraits in Washington, D.C. at the Smithsonian National Portrait Gallery. That was great because Amy Sherald, the portraitist that actually painted the portrait of Michelle Obama, has been our biggest supporter. Recently, for Black History Month, she actually purchased 30 VR headsets, and we were able to donate them to schools across the U.S. so they could view them. in virtual reality. And for them, they've never even seen somebody that looks like them on the wall. And then it's not just I try to be very careful. I don't make just black and brown VR experience or black and brown kids. We make them for all kids because students of all races need to see diverse figures. And that's what's not being shown in VR. A typical example is I tell people I have my own VR company. Most white men tell me, who do I work for? And I have to correct them and say, I have my own VR company. But they've never seen examples of people that look like me that have their own company, especially in VR.
[00:08:29.026] Kent Bye: Yeah, and you are running a company. And then you're also saying you're students. And what do you mean by your students when you say that?
[00:08:34.745] Kai Fraizer: So when you teach, your students are your students for life. So I taught 7th and 8th grade students. My last students, they are now in their first year in college and they still help me. Actually, one of my VR experiences, which takes students to the Martin Luther King Jr. Memorial in Washington, D.C., we had the I Have a Dream speech overlaid on that VR experience in English, but a lot of my students, my former students, they don't speak English. A lot of them speak Spanish first. So I had two of my students record in Spanish the I Have a Dream speech so we could give it back to students in our old school so the new students could actually understand. So I do VR clubs, too, in different areas. So I consider those kids my students as well. And my students, they are still my headaches still 10 years after me teaching them. I stopped teaching my last year in the classrooms in 2014, but I still do all the recommendation letters. I go to their colleges. I speak at their schools. I'm super supportive of them even to this day.
[00:09:24.910] Kent Bye: And so, I guess with your company, what type of things are being sold, or what are you providing in terms of services in this more educational space, or what even vertical are you in, and what are you actually selling?
[00:09:36.677] Kai Fraizer: Yeah, so we try and stay in the education vertical for that. So we sell VR STEM kits for teachers that have curriculum to go with a lot of our VR experiences. We also charge institutions to do the VR filming. So we are a production house, and then we actually sell VR equipment. And then, too, one of our biggest supporters has been Mozilla. So now we're trying to work together to see what does it take to manufacture almost a leapfrog version of a headset that works for students that allows them to have these experiences that works in large classrooms.
[00:10:05.074] Kent Bye: Yeah, because I guess it was interesting to me to hear that now, this day and age, that most students have their own cell phones. And so what ages are they starting to have cell phones?
[00:10:15.710] Kai Fraizer: Oh my goodness, they're having cell phones at like five. They're born with cell phones in their hands. So we see students, you know, we think about cell phones as, I didn't have my first cell phone until I was like 17. I've had my same phone number my whole entire life. And these students have had these cell phones since they were maybe, most of them got them when they were about 10. So they don't have computers. When you think about a cell phone, if you want to get a new iPhone, you pay $20 a month on your cell phone for a new iPhone. on your cell phone bill. If you want a computer, even a low-cost one, it may be $300 of disposable income. A lot of my students don't have that income. So we have to use the cell phones as a mini computer. And so we are a mobile-first company. Everything is WebVR. And a lot of the VR experiences, maybe they want to see them, but they're not built for a mobile platform. So maybe you can only see it on a Oculus, Rift, or HTC Vive. That's great, but my students don't have $500 with the PC to run it, so they're excluding a lot of VR experiences they would love to see, but they can't.
[00:11:13.438] Kent Bye: So you've been doing some development within WebVR to create WebVR experiences, and what type of stuff have you been creating?
[00:11:18.760] Kai Fraizer: Yeah, so we've made a couple of WebVR experiences. Right now we're actually in app production. We did a recent pitch competition, so we won $30K to make our app. So we're offloading all those VR experiences because we're a web-based company, so now we're putting them on the app to make it run a little bit easier in schools. And even with schools, though, we see so many firewall issues. We see so many connectivity issues. I was at a school, I've been at schools all last week. So we've run into schools that are just brick walls. They can't get a cell phone signal. We've run into schools with Wi-Fi issues. So we're always trying to figure out how can we make our materials the most accessible And then with WebVR, the good thing about that is a lot of the students, they want to get into VR, they can't code on C Sharp, not yet. So we're doing things like using Mozilla Hubs where they can actually have their first touch point into WebVR by just dragging and dropping VR and visualizing things in a 360 plane. And that's been a game changer for kids who want to get into VR but have been told just to wait or they have to code for all these years to even try. So we've been super excited to see kids just jump in where they are.
[00:12:17.678] Kent Bye: Yeah, and it sounds like that you're going into schools and to sell these different services in some ways of these STEM kits, but I imagine that a lot of what educators are facing are not a lot of time to innovate on curriculum and not a lot of extra cash or money or resources. And so, it seems like it's a little bit of a difficult market to penetrate. Obviously, I think that there's a lot of potential there, but also, are you able to actually get these schools to dedicate budget and funding? And what is it that shifts their mind and to jump into this?
[00:12:50.908] Kai Fraizer: Sure. So that's the great thing about being a teacher first. I know all of those pain points firsthand. So for that, there's a website called DonorsChoose. It helps a lot of teachers come up with the money so they can have these materials. We have templates so they can make their own DonorsChoose templates and get the VR materials. DonorsChoose, what is that? It's a website where you can put that I'm a teacher, I want to have $500 to make a VR kit for my school. You put it on the website and people will fundraise for you, and a lot of teachers get their materials from that site. So we've made templates so teachers can easily get the materials, and that's been great. They have the biggest smile on their face that they have somebody that's actually thinking about them, because I know how challenging it is. A lot of our materials are very low cost too, so for the price of a typical VR set, we're probably a third of that. On top of that, we've been working with a lot of students who are special education. There's not a lot of resources for that. So schools are very excited to put money towards that because they haven't had those options before. And on top of that, like I said, we are also looking into rental options. So if they can't afford it right now, how can we get them to rent at a very low cost to have materials in their classroom?
[00:13:56.869] Kent Bye: Yeah, and talking to Google, because I know that they've done a number of different prototypes with their Google Expeditions, which was doing lots of different curriculum development. And one thing that they told me that was interesting was that they tried not to make the actual content that was within the experience specific to any age or grade. and to just create this spatial media in that you could have planets orbiting around the sun and then have some lesson around that that each teacher could figure out for pretty much every grade. So having a little bit more of an agnostic spatial models and maybe some concept there, but not have too much additional content that was going to peg it to any specific age. I don't know if that's something that you've thought or agree with as well.
[00:14:40.427] Kai Fraizer: Yeah, we have a lot of materials and we tell you what age they're appropriate for, so we do a little bit about that. We have some materials that work better for younger kids, but there's some topics that we may not want to put students in just yet. So, for example, we have that For My Son experience I talked about. We say that's about 11 and up, so maybe you don't want to watch that if you're maybe, I don't know, 7 years old or something. So we make sure that we try to level off our things like that. And then we also make curriculum materials around it. So if you want to make your own lesson great, but a lot of teachers are looking for a just add water solution. So we have the curriculum materials, we have the VR stuff, so it's really easy to integrate it into your classroom. And then too, we make sure everything's curriculum based because I know a lot of these standards off the back of my hand. It's really easy for us to make those learning materials so they are easily implemented in the classroom.
[00:15:27.050] Kent Bye: And how do you start an experience with a bunch of students Is there a way for a teacher to have some sort of tablet interface to be able to control what each student is experiencing?
[00:15:36.912] Kai Fraizer: Yeah, for us right now, what we're doing is we, me personally, the way I do my classroom management is I pair the students in twos. And I tell them, you know, one is gonna be the spotter, the safety spotter, the other one is gonna be the VR person, and then they trade and they have the conversation. We want them to have a lot of critical thinking around it. And then we have the worksheets we have with this, they can actually write. A lot of the kids can't write well anymore, So we make them kind of right at what they're learning, and we give them those critical thinking prompts. And they really take their safety responsibilities seriously. So it's nice to see them. You're seeing kids who maybe don't behave as well in class. The best feedback we got from teachers is that the kids are behaving, I mean, completely differently. A lot of patience in their academic comprehension is growing. So that's how we're doing right now. We would love to have a console that a teacher can just control. We just don't have the budget for that. We are a totally bootstrap company.
[00:16:27.612] Kent Bye: Well there seems to be another element where I can imagine the mind-blowing engagement that you get in terms of having this sense of wonder and awe that you're able to invoke in the students and then because they're trading off and have this mystery as to what is it that they're experiencing and then they get to experience and then they get to talk about it but What is it about that level of engagement or immersion that is clicking in the way that, is there a way to measure it or is there a way to see, like, what is the impact of having students really get excited or engaged or immersed? I know what that could be like in terms of a qualitative aspect, but is there any ways that you tell that story or able to measure what VR can do with that level of engagement?
[00:17:09.905] Kai Fraizer: Yeah, so right now one of the things we're fundraising for is to kick off a lot of the research around it because we're seeing a lot of gains in just the kids are behaving a lot better and that's still qualitative. What's challenging for me is I think we're not measuring for some of the right things for these students. One of the big things I see that impresses me when they're doing VR experiences consistently is their truancy rates go down. So we have kids who weren't even showing up at school and now they're engaged in new ways and they're coming back. Even with these field trips they're taking, these VR field trips, we have stats that tell you that if a kid goes on regular field trips, they're 95% more likely to graduate from high school. And those are the stats we wanted to try to get and see how VR correlates with that. Also, what is the difference with the urban communities and the rural communities? Like, what are the gains we're seeing? So we're seeing their academic comprehension. We can measure that, but we wanted to measure for things that we're not even thinking about yet.
[00:17:55.327] Kent Bye: Great. And so for you, what are some of the either biggest open questions you're trying to answer or open problems you're trying to solve?
[00:18:02.845] Kai Fraizer: For me, then the biggest problem that I'm trying to solve is how do I get these students who don't have access to know about new jobs, new opportunities, so they can generate wealth and new opportunities for them. I have a lot of students who maybe they take jobs that they're very talented and smart students. Maybe I have a student who can write on Twitter all day long. They don't know they can write a screenplay because they've never seen somebody like them writing a screenplay. So right now one of our next filmings that we've been approached to is for the Trap Museum in Atlanta, Georgia. And they want us to film that to talk about music engineering. So they can see what is it like to actually film a lot of these, you know, new sounds you're hearing and how it's happening in Atlanta. So we can bring those back to kids so they don't all Yes, kids can be rappers, cool, but they don't know about all the other jobs behind the studio. We want the kids to see that as an early age so they can have those new careers and then provide for their communities and create change. And that's what we're not seeing a lot of strong examples of right now. So I'm looking forward to seeing how that grows.
[00:18:58.828] Kent Bye: Great. And finally, what do you think the ultimate potential of virtual reality is? And what am I able to enable?
[00:19:07.355] Kai Fraizer: For me, I think the ultimate potential of VR is that it will allow people to have access to new opportunities they didn't know exist. I didn't even know you could be a VR content producer before this. I didn't know that I could. I thought I could just be a teacher. I didn't know that I could make a school. When I got into museums, I just wanted to work at a museum. I didn't know I could make my own museum. I struggled at dreaming really big, and I still struggle with. So I want kids to not have to struggle like me. I want them to know at an early age, anything is possible. You have access to it. If you dream it, that you could actually do it.
[00:19:38.332] Kent Bye: Great. Is there anything else that's left unsaid that you'd like to say to the immersive community?
[00:19:43.055] Kai Fraizer: I would like to say when I got into immersive content, as a storyteller of no tech background, I was told to wait, just keep on waiting, and eventually we will have space for you in this field. And I've been told to wait in so many different careers, and I hope that the immersive community actually does outreach and invites different people from all walks of life to actually get into this, because I don't think that VR will catch on the way we want it to until everybody has a seat at the table, and they are encouraged to make their own tables so we can make a more inclusive VR ecosystem.
[00:20:13.540] Kent Bye: Awesome. Great. Well, thank you so much.
[00:20:15.320] Kai Fraizer: Thank you. Thank you, Ken. I appreciate it.
[00:20:17.641] Kent Bye: So that was Kai Frazier with Curated by Kai. And it was a conversation that we had after a panel discussion at the UN Women Global Voices VR Film Festival. So I remember different takeaways about this interview is that, first of all, well, I really love the enterprising spirit of Kai and her willingness to be able to go from being a teacher and not waiting for an invitation to actually become a VR creator, but to actually go out and just start doing it. to solve a very specific need, which is that as a teacher, you don't have a lot of funding, you don't have a lot of resources. And I think the thing that was really striking about this conversation is just her willingness to be able to try to make the immersive experiences very accessible. There's a lot of people within the VR industry that are extremely dismissive for anything that is other than PC VR, six degrees of freedom, you know, the best of the best of the best. But I think that is a misunderstanding of like a technological diffusion curve of, you know, how technology actually diffuses out. Now, I totally agree that six degree of freedom is always like preferable if you can do it. But if you don't have the funding and the resources or the ability to actually have that, then how can you start to use those other technologies to be able to start to bring access to immersive experiences without quote unquote poisoning the well, which I think a lot of people have thought about when they think about things like the Google Cardboard or the Oculus Go even. But I think in seeing what Google has been able to do with the Google Expeditions program, as well as different initiatives that CHI has, you can actually get a lot out of just using the 360 video and talking to different teachers on Twitter. Teachers are saying, you know, there's a lot of content that's in like the New York Times, National Geographic, as well as on YouTube. And so a lot of 360 video that is able to do this amazing job of being able to transport the students into these different contexts and then allows them to essentially take these virtual field trips. And so There's just so much content that's out there. And so CHI is trying to curate this different types of content, companies literally called curated by CHI. And it's been up to this point, a very bootstrapped company. And although I did see a Twitter message that she just had signed a term sheet recently, sounds like she's actually been getting a little bit more support and funding, which is great, because I think she's been doing a lot of great work to be able to evangelize and put this stuff out here so hopefully she's been able to you know be able to grow out what she's doing because I feel like this is a big need you know there's a lot of students that are out there and you know a lot of things she's talking about is students need to see different models to see like this is even possible and so to be able to take 360 videos of people who are professionals and them talking about what they're doing to introduce them as you know this is a possibility for you to have a career path like if you want to do these specific things that the more that the students have that in their mind, okay, this is an employment possibility that is possible for me, I have something that I can like strive for now. And I think without a lot of good examples of that, people in these different communities, then they can feel a little like lost or aimless. And I think that what CHI is trying to do is trying to find those different types of experiences to inspire students to be able to have this larger vision for how their education is going to get them to where they wanna go. But also as a history teacher, she would go to different museums. And even though there would be kids that would live right next to the museums, they may not have the resources available to be able to actually go and see what the content is. And so she's been going around and trying to capture different aspects of these history museums to be able to help to bring history alive. And I think virtual reality more than any other medium is going to be able to help to do that, to be able to capture different aspects of either recreations or 360 videos to be able to take people to different places, to be able to give them a larger context, to be able to talk about different events. So I think there's a huge potential and I'm also like a big defender of things like the Google Cardboard, even though people often complain that Cardboard has been the worst thing for virtual reality. But, you know, if you think about the technological diffusion curves, then you think about that there's people that are different phases, you know, people who are the early majority or the late majority. you know, sometimes it takes time for them to kind of diffuse out. And so I feel like even the Oculus Quest right now, the Quest is going to kind of diffuse out into these variety of different communities. And there's going to be stuff that's going to come out that's even better than the Quest, but there's still going to be people that are out there that are going to find completely valid use cases for the not latest and greatest versions of virtual reality. So I think we're still going to see a huge application for three degrees of freedom, headsets that don't have the whole six degree of freedom, and also the Google Cardboard and especially all the different content that's out there for three degrees of freedom. A lot of arguments that I hear from different people are like, you know, but you can watch all this content on like a 60 degree freedom device. My response is yet. Yeah, that's true. But you're doing these different trade-offs of it's much more expensive for teachers who don't necessarily have a lot of money or resources. You know, you're talking about the difference between whether or not you're doubling the amount of access of the different technologies that you have. So I think there's still a role for these different types of Google Cardboards where Kai was saying, okay, for some of the students, they actually have to build the headset themselves. And so it becomes more of a STEM project then to actually build the VR headset. And then they have the reward of actually feeling like they have this deeper ownership of being able to actually watch these different experiences. the way that she prefers to do it is kind of pairing off her students off one-on-one so there's a spotter and then people are in it and so trying to do this not everybody in the vr all at the same time all at once but to kind of do half of the students and then the other half and then have them be able to engage with each other and you know, just citing different statistics of, you know, people that are engaged with these different content that, you know, what are the metrics of success? You know, what if you look at truancy rates and see if there may be things that are drawing in the students more to be engaged and, you know, maybe there's, there's less dropouts and maybe that's a metric for success. And she decided that for students that take different field trips that over 90% of them end up graduating. And so if we're able to take the different students on these virtual field trips, then can that start to increase the amount of engagement and to give people a reason to be able to come into school and to be very excited. So. Anyway, very excited to see what Kai is doing and obviously I want everybody to have the latest and greatest of everything, but I think there's still a role for Google Cardboard, especially as we start to diffuse out all the different applications and to see how people can continue to make a lot of use with the content that's already there, with all of these resources, with YouTube, National Geographic, as well as the New York Times. As well as what Kai is doing with her Curated by Kai and a lot of specific experiences that she's creating for educators as well. So, that's all that I have for today, and I just wanted to thank you for listening to the Voices of VR podcast, and if you enjoy the podcast, then please do spread the word, tell your friends, and consider becoming a member of the Patreon. This is a listener-supported podcast, and I do rely upon donations from people like yourself in order to continue to bring you this coverage. So, you can become a member and donate today at patreon.com slash voicesofvr. Thanks for listening.