Estella Tse discovered Tilt Brush at the Unity Vision AR/VR Summit in February 2016 where she met the developers, and became a beta tester where she provided feedback. She was invited to become an artist in residence with Google where she transitioned into becoming a full-time VR artist with her background in 2D illustration and web development. I had a chance to catch up with her at Oculus Connect 4 in October 2017 where she shared her journey into virtual reality, how she’d spent over 700 hours in VR up to that point, the differences between the major VR art programs and why she prefers Tilt Brush, her independent studies of sculpture, how VR has been impacting her spatial memory, her studies of film scenes in VR, how she relies upon rhythm and fully embodied movements to get into flow states to create art in VR, and why she embraces imperfection and takes inspiration from painting in how there’s no undo.
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Rough Transcript
[00:00:05.452] Kent Bye: The Voices of VR Podcast. Hello, my name is Kent Bye, and welcome to The Voices of VR Podcast. So, continuing on with my series of talking to VR artists about their process, I talked to Estella Chae at the Oculus Connect 4 way back in 2017. This was about a year after the launch of the Oculus Rift, as well as the HTC Vive. And back in early February of 2016, Unity had a Vision AR VR Summit, which Estella talks about going to, and that's where she mentions where she went to the summit and met the Tilt Brush developers, and then gave feedback into Tilt Brush, and then eventually got into the Google Artist Residency program. And then she's been doing various different work within virtual reality art since then. So talk to Estelle about her process, as well as just talking about the weird things that happen to her body, how her memory is changing, and what's it like for her to be able to work in the spatial medium of virtual reality. So, that's what we're covering on today's episode of the Vistas of VR podcast. So, this interview with Estella happened on Thursday, October 12th, 2017, at the Oculus Connect 4 conference in San Jose, California. So, with that, let's go ahead and dive right in.
[00:01:27.085] Estella Tse: I'm Estella Che. I am a VR artist. I've been a artist in residence with Google. And I currently do contract work with different companies or different projects and just experimenting on VR art making right now.
[00:01:43.370] Kent Bye: Great. So maybe you could tell me a bit about the story of how you got into being a virtual reality artist.
[00:01:49.270] Estella Tse: Yeah, it's quite a journey, actually, how I got there. So I wanted to combine a few different things from my past. I used to work in web design and web development. So that's kind of like my tech background. And I kind of took a pause on that for a little bit. And I went to school at the Art Center College of Design in Pasadena for illustration with a focus on entertainment and animation. So right before I graduated, I wanted to find a way to merge the tech and art part. And I kind of went to a VR conference. I went to Unity Summit, I think. And I was like, oh my god, this is crazy. What is this technology? And that was really exciting for me. And then I tried Tilt Brush. I was like, this is nuts. This is what I want to do. I need to get into this. I want to develop for this. I want to just expand on this as a new art form. And that was really compelling for me.
[00:02:38.359] Kent Bye: Yeah, and so were you already a 3D modeler or are you kind of a native VR spatial artist?
[00:02:46.045] Estella Tse: What do you mean by native spatial artist?
[00:02:47.747] Kent Bye: Well, I mean just like that your native medium for working in 3D is working in VR rather than doing something in Maya or Blender that you're coming to learn how to do this spatial art within the medium of virtual reality.
[00:03:02.220] Estella Tse: Yeah, definitely that. I don't have formal training in 3D modeling, and I didn't learn Maya or ZBrush prior, and I think that's what was really powerful. The first time I tried Tilt Brush and Medium, I was like, wow, I can sculpt something within a matter of minutes without having to learn the UI, the complexities of a UI, of Maya, and be able to make this into a product, export this into a game. That's amazing to me.
[00:03:31.009] Kent Bye: So tell me more about your journey from starting to discover Tilt Brush and these other immersive art programs to then eventually becoming an artist-in-residence at Google.
[00:03:41.893] Estella Tse: Yeah, I feel very lucky for that, first of all. It was just the right timing and being in the right place at the right time. I met some of the engineers from the Tilt Brush team at the Unity Summit. And I was like, what is this technology? What is this thing you guys are working on? And this is before it launched. This was early 2016, before they released in April. And I was like, I need to get this. I'm going to get a vibe. I'm going to try this all out. And I'm going to email you guys what I think about it. And they're like, yeah, yeah, here's our email address. And so I got in touch with them early on. And it was really frequent now sending them reports of like, hey, it would be great if this feature were here or if I could do this. And I essentially bugged them a lot is how I perceive it. I just send them a lot of feedback and just kept in contact with them. And at some point when they were forming their Artist-in-Residence program, they graciously invited me to join their program. And I was like, of course, of course I want to do this. This is amazing. And in that program, they allowed me to kind of explore what I wanted to work on. Essentially free range to explore the tool and what I wanted to do with that.
[00:04:49.306] Kent Bye: Yeah, I think that there was a VR art show that Nick Ochoa put together at the Magic Gallery. And I think you had some pieces in there. And the thing that I saw that was similar to all the different pieces there was that you're using scale and you're exploring space in a new way. So as you're creating art within virtual reality, how do you think about it? Are you creating characters? Are you creating environments? Or what is it that you're really doing? And just maybe unpack your process a little bit.
[00:05:18.132] Estella Tse: Yeah, there's a lot of things I think about. So coming from a 2D illustration background, I think about composition, I think about focal points, and building contrast. So just on a technical level, what am I trying to convey in my image? And what is the message I'm trying to focus on? That's really important to me when I'm working in the VR space as well. So with that in mind, within VR, the complexity of that is like, how do I compose a piece in VR? Like, what does that mean? I don't have a frame. I can't really work on thirds, you know, the traditional, like, using thirds or, like, kind of, like, just, like, these basic cinematic rules or compositional rules, like, they don't necessarily apply because there is no frame. There's no boundaries anymore. So I started experimenting with making boundaries. So how do I compose a piece? Do I want it to just exist in an open space and just sit there? Or do I put walls around it? Or do I put it on a pedestal? So how do I frame a piece? So it's actually transitioned from studying 2D illustrations into sculpture. So I've been studying Rodin sculptures a lot. And I've been going to museums to just walk around these sculptures and see, oh, in each angle that I turn, There's something that's emphasized, there's a movement that's emphasized that's different than the other angles. That's really interesting to me and I'm just learning that. I don't have any formal training on sculpting so I'm just kind of like learning as I go and going to museums and just doing copies of them and kind of going into VR and like sketching them out to see if I can replicate it and learning that way.
[00:06:55.467] Kent Bye: Yeah, and just imagining that right now you can bring in a 2D photo into a VR space. And I guess it's becoming easier to bring 3D models into these spaces as well if you wanted to have a little avatar model to be able to be inspired from. But maybe you could tell me a bit more about what you've been learning from studying Rodin and studying sculpture and that process of then translating that and expanding your spatial memory of your mind to then be able to translate that into 3D and recreate it.
[00:07:24.613] Estella Tse: Yeah, I have two thoughts. Remind me about spatial memory for a second. Important note about that. With the Rodin sculptures that I've been studying, I went to Stanford. They're just out in the garden, by the way. You just walk around and look at them. It's really interesting because he contorts the bodies in a way that our bodies can't do. Like he'll turn the neck completely, like 90 degrees. But it makes sense when you see the sculpture. But I think right now where we are in the VR art making form, people are still trying to do realistic forms. or making it be as close to reality as possible. But I think what we should do is try to push that a little bit more and expand on that. How do we get a little bit more imaginative with it in order to create a message or feeling, rather than this is a human body and all the anatomy is correct? How do we push those boundaries to give it a different type of style with this new medium? I'm really intrigued by that.
[00:08:18.042] Kent Bye: Yeah, and what about the spatial memory?
[00:08:21.112] Estella Tse: Yeah, so the spatial memory bit. So I talked to Danny Bittman and Liz Edwards and Steve Tips about this. And we kind of have a chat room of things that are going on with our bodies or things that we're noticing. Because I feel like we spend the most time in VR. I think I've clocked probably 700, 800 hours in VR, just painting. And so there's certain physical effects that will happen, or kind of psychological effects that I think are starting to happen right now, which is really weird. Spatial memory is one of them. My memory is based on spatial things. So if I recall something like, oh, I was having a conversation with somebody. Where was that? It was at a park. The sun was over on 8 o'clock or something like that. And we were talking about dogs or something like that. Like, it's very much so an environment for me. So there's been a few times where I'll get ready to do a painting and I'm like, oh, like, where's that reference image that I, like, I had a reference image. So I'm like, okay, it's over in that corner of my room. Let me go over there. And I'll dig through my backpack and I'll look through my shelves. I'm like, where's that reference image? I can't find it, but I just had it yesterday. And I'm like trying to find, I'm looking everywhere and I realized like, oh my God, it's in VR, but in that corner. So I realized like, like my memory is getting kind of like distorted in a way, I guess. It's no longer as reliable. I'm like, wait, was that a dream? Was that VR or was that real life?
[00:09:45.171] Kent Bye: Oh, wow, that's really interesting. Well, for the Voices of VR podcast, I travel to all of my conferences that I go to. And so I have this ritual, because I don't live in San Francisco or Los Angeles. I live in Portland. And so I have to fly to all these cities. And so it's like a whole, like, I have to travel. I fly in. I'm staying somewhere. I'm going to the conference. And I'm kind of remembering what the lighting is like, where I'm at. This, actually, being here in the San Jose Convention Center is like I've been here for the last, like, three years at the Silicon Valley Virtual Reality Conference, Oculus Connect 3 and 4. But I'll remember where I did the interview. I'll remember we're sitting in this corner, and I'll remember, oh, the last time we talked was in October of 2017, Oculus Connect 4. So I feel like the more that I am traveling I'm starting to use the earth as a memory palace and to be able to remember where I was and so I think that there is a powerful hook that you can start to use with spatial memory and it's more of a matter of like well, what are the other ways that you can do to actually amplify that to start to maybe have an augmented reality app that starts to overlay different things in your environment? But within virtual reality, that's the thing that I get excited about is that I do get excited about the potential of how is this going to change my memory? And how can we further refine our own memory palace, which for you, you're already doing that. But it sounds like your line between that memory palace and reality is starting to blur. But yeah, to me, that's just an interesting idea of starting to really explicitly use these principles of embodied cognition and create environments for learning and creating entire Intel Brush. You'll go in, and maybe the reference or background image will be a specific place where now you're painting in this area. And then that will be associated with the other things that you're trying to either work out of your memory or express some sort of spatial representation of your inner psyche.
[00:11:42.466] Estella Tse: Yeah, yes, that's very profound what you said. And I totally agree with that. And I think there is something very powerful in that. And I think that kind of speaks to how people say, like, with VR, you're creating memories. You're not just watching a film where you can talk about it and it's like a passive thing. You are actively creating memories in your brain and the connections that you're going through. And that's really powerful. And that kind of scares me as a content creator. I also think it's very exciting as well. But I feel like there should be some responsibility towards that, right? I don't know what the answers are. It's just like a very big, it's a very big topic to me.
[00:12:19.449] Kent Bye: What do you mean that there's a responsibility to that?
[00:12:22.032] Estella Tse: I don't want VR to be used for bad, you know? Like, I don't want people to exploit that, you know? Can you imagine if there's... It's just really bad advertisement experiences where you're creating memories that are just like an ad. It's not a good use of the medium. It should be used for something good. I don't know. I strongly believe that in terms of my creative ethics.
[00:12:43.412] Kent Bye: Yeah. So for you as an artist, what is it that is inspiring you to create? What are you creating in VR mostly when you go into these different 3D art programs? What is it that you're, at the end of the day, creating?
[00:12:58.498] Estella Tse: That's a big question for me. Right now, I think this phase of where I am and where the technology is, I feel like everything I'm doing is R&D. So just experimenting, pushing the boundaries of what the tools can do, mixing different things, just trying different approaches to see what I can create with Tilt Brush or Blogs, Medium, and to see what people's reactions are. But also I know that not many people are viewing the content in VR, so it's kind of like not exactly the most precise way of gauging whether it's effective or not. I just want to do more things and experiment more to see what this art form can be right now. So I don't really have a concrete answer for that part. But for myself, I want to push the art form. I want to see what this visual language can be in terms of image making as well as storytelling and how that can be an influential thing that can be used to provoke feelings and emotions that people feel connected to.
[00:14:01.169] Kent Bye: Yeah, I'm wondering if you could step through the different 3D art programs that you use most often and maybe some differences in what the tool enables you to do and how that allows you to create.
[00:14:14.726] Estella Tse: I'm definitely biased towards Tilt Brush. I think coming from a painting background and sketching background that was the most natural for me. When I go into blocks, it's really good for like low poly model building, but I feel like when I'm in it, I'm still like tinkering with like points and vertices to make them very specific. Whereas in Tilt Brush, I can just have free flow thoughts and my body is like flowing physically with it. And I love that. I love that I can move with my drawings and I can move while I'm painting and creating. I actually can't sit still for 2D drawings anymore. So I've gone to drawing workshops, and I'm like, I can't sit here and just be on this one horse. So I find myself moving around the room a lot when I go and draw on it. It's become very physical.
[00:14:58.686] Kent Bye: Oh, wow. So you're actually like, it's more than just moving your arm, but you're actually moving your full body, sounds like.
[00:15:04.311] Estella Tse: Yeah, a lot of things have changed with my whole, like I said, my facial memory has kind of changed a bit, and the way I approach drawing physically is different. I have to, even if I'm standing and I'm drawing like a figure, I kind of have to rock back and forth right now, side to side. It gets that rhythm going for me, I think because I usually listen to music while I'm painting in Tilt Brush. I need to have music, I need to move, and that's how I get everything going right now.
[00:15:30.636] Kent Bye: Ah, that's interesting. So you're actually kind of turning it into a little bit of a dance of like finding the rhythm and finding that deeper inspiration of the spirit coming through you or whatever you want to call it in terms of the flow state that you get from the rhythm of the music, but kind of entraining your body into that kind of gets you into a more focused or flow state, would you say?
[00:15:48.197] Estella Tse: Yeah, definitely. Absolutely right now. And it's weird if I don't have a music that feels right to me right now to paint. I don't want to have it be a limitation though, but it helps me a lot to have the music going and also to be able to move. It's like really weird right now. I don't know.
[00:16:07.462] Kent Bye: Well, we're here at Oculus Connect 4, and I think you just last night did a performance. Maybe you could talk a bit about that in terms of whenever you are performing in front of a crowd and how that is different than what you may be doing privately, or if it's different at all.
[00:16:22.629] Estella Tse: It's definitely different, knowing that I have an audience watching, and I know that people are learning from me as I go, and that's how I treat it. It's kind of like a tutorial. For Oculus Connect 4 here, I was doing a tutorial, or not tutorial, but performance for Medium, and I kept it really simple. I sculpted foods, Kent. So I started with a drumstick. Basic sphere, extruded out like a tube, and I had like two nubs at the back for like the bone. Added a smiley face to it. Done! Drumstick done. And I did like a hot dog, a taco, and stuff, just using basic shapes. And I wanted to focus on that because I also know that the other medium artists do really intricate and beautiful characters and figures. But I also wanted to show, hey, if you don't really know how to design characters or mix and all that stuff, you can just make a taco for fun in five minutes. And I wanted people to feel that as well.
[00:17:20.629] Kent Bye: And didn't you create a lot of food on blocks as well?
[00:17:23.151] Estella Tse: Yes, I did. You think I'm always hungry, which is true. I do make a lot of food all the time. It's fun. I don't know.
[00:17:30.543] Kent Bye: Well, so you talked about Tilt Brush as well as Blocks. What about Medium and Quill? How do those fit into your toolkit when it comes to creating 3D art? And what those uniquely allow you to do?
[00:17:42.929] Estella Tse: I was limited to hardware for a little while, so I mostly had the vibe. So I didn't have access to Medium and Quill for the longest time. So that's why I think I gravitated more towards Tilt Brush and Blocks. Medium is really powerful. I think it's really great and I liken it to sculpting with clay and having the intricacies of using tools to like shape things and detail things down to like the nitty-gritty. Quill I actually have very little experience with I think because I'm very used to Tilt Brush.
[00:18:14.455] Kent Bye: I see, yeah, I was talking to Danny Bittman, and he was just saying that there's a certain learning curve to Quill, such that, you know, it's actually more sophisticated in terms of having lots of layers, but I was talking to Danny about, like, okay, what about these layers and groupings, and you have groupings and blocks, but, you know, some lightweight groupings and Tilt Brush, but no sort of full-fledged layer system, and he was kind of resistant to having it be overcomplicated in Tilt Brush. And so I'm just curious to hear your thoughts in terms of if you find that as a way to not have unnecessary complications and blocks to your flow state versus the unique affordances that you may be able to do if you had layers.
[00:18:54.075] Estella Tse: I agree with Danny with that. I like the limitations of the technology, and I liken it to painting, traditional painting, because traditional drawing with a pen, you just get better as you go, knowing that you can't erase or you can't undo, you can't do layers, and it trains you to design better, I think. Versus if you were using Photoshop, it's very forgiving. You could always undo, you could always add layers, remove layers, delete layers. But if you're doing a traditional painting, like out in the wild, like looking in the river, you have to think differently. You design better. You're more intentional with your marks. That's really important to me. Yeah, so that's kind of why I'm okay with the lack of layers and the limitations of the technology. I would rather push what I can do with those limitations than to depend on a technology to allow me to undo or make things quote-unquote perfect.
[00:19:52.749] Kent Bye: Yeah, it reminds me of talking to Andrew Jones who did Microdose, which is more of getting into a flow state of like a particle generator with all sorts of really elaborate geometric and molecular psychedelic inspired particle generator, which would be more for like doing a live performance during a music performance. And it's more designed to get into a flow state. And Android's also an artist. And so one of the things he said is that when he creates his art, once he gets to the point where he saves a piece of art, then it crosses into a different realm. That you've gotten to that point, but once you save it, then you start to think, OK, now should I undo this or keep it? And also he felt the same way with undo. So if there's any undo or any save, those were two things start to get a part of your brain that is becoming too rational or critical. And then once you get into that state of mind, then it becomes really difficult to drop deeply into that flow state. And that's what I hear for you as well, is that you would prefer to just kind of flow and have more intention and skill and expertise rather than getting it perfect and overthinking it and then going back and forth and kind of stalling out.
[00:21:02.254] Estella Tse: Yeah, I agree with that. And I guess for me, there's a few things. I think perfectionism can be kind of boring. I feel like there's something really interesting in quote-unquote flaws or in the natural outcome of things, organic outcome of things. I think that's very interesting when you just allow things to happen the way that they do. Because you can find happy accidents in that. You can discover something in that. What was my other thought? Oh, iterations, that's really important. So being able to do a sketch on a piece of paper, if it doesn't turn out right, you just turn over the next piece of paper. You keep trying it, you keep drawing it until you get it the way that you want it to be. But you can't really focus 100% on that first one because it'll stall you. You won't be able to progress, you won't be able to move on from there and grow.
[00:21:53.270] Kent Bye: Yeah, and when I was talking to Danny Bittman, he was saying that a big part of his process of doing Tilt Brush drawings is that he's kind of tuning into some sort of emotional state, and then he'll kind of get into a flow of expressing his emotions in some ways. And then, all of a sudden, you're sitting with an embodied representation of a portion of your emotions or inner psyche. And I'm just curious to hear your experiences with doing that.
[00:22:17.283] Estella Tse: Yeah, I have one piece that freaks me out that I did. I did a film study of Hitchcock's Vertigo. And it's the scene where it's the green lit background. There's this dark silhouette of the main actress. And it's very eerie scene to begin with in the movie. So what I did was I painted it. I wanted to see if I could do a film study in VR. So I painted with light in the background. I have the silhouette. I combined a few different shots. So as you turn, and see her face from the front view you see that it's lit in a weird way so during my process of painting it obviously I reached the uncanny valley at some point because it's like well her eyes are just like not really in the right place or lighting is just so bizarre and I was like zooming in really because I had the eye really large and I was like doing details for it and At some point, I was just like, oh my god, she's so creepy. She's staring right at me. I feel like I'm like Dr. Frankenstein making Frankenstein's monster right now. Whatever. So I continued with it. It looks really great. And I posted it online. And so that was all fine. It was great. When I posted it on Instagram, for some reason, this video wonks out. And that wasn't in the original video recording that I posted. So for some reason, the Instagram one, and it's still there, it's just like, it trips out. And everyone started commenting like, oh my god, that last part was so scary. I was like, what are they talking about? And I watched this video. I was like, oh my god, that wasn't in the original video. So I believe it's haunted. And I refused to go back in, because I'm afraid if I go in, she maybe moved, or she's not there anymore. I would just be freaked out if she's not there anymore, or something like that. So this is a weird relationship I have with my painting that I made, where I'm like, is it haunted? I don't know.
[00:24:05.298] Kent Bye: Wow. Well, that's really interesting. And I guess you have emotions that you can explore. Was there a particular emotion that you're focusing in on there?
[00:24:15.766] Estella Tse: It was more of like the eeriness. Yeah, definitely the eeriness, a little bit of creepy stuff. I was probably listening to some weird, creepy music, some sort of soundtrack of sorts. I think I was listening to the Vertigo soundtrack, actually. I'm sure that had something to do with it. Yeah, so it manifests its way in a very strange way.
[00:24:33.210] Kent Bye: Yeah, it's definitely an odd coincidence that turns into this synchronicity where your inner state is matching your outer state, and it just sort of like kind of freaks you out, it sounds like.
[00:24:43.232] Estella Tse: Yeah, it's a physical. I don't know what the right word is, like a manifestation, but like stronger than that, of my emotions and my ideas and my visuals that feels solid. It feels volumetric. And there's something really scary about that sometimes for me, for that content rather, you know, for that specific painting.
[00:25:06.317] Kent Bye: Yeah, and I'm wondering if there's other functions for making 3D art, whether it's an exploration of your imagination or an exploration of being able to kind of study something and learn about it more. And if you've been able to do 3D art that is either exploring your imagination or really kind of looking deeply and to try to understand something.
[00:25:25.631] Estella Tse: What do you mean?
[00:25:26.716] Kent Bye: Well, I'd imagine that if you're trying to understand, like, the nature of a plant or something and you painted it, that you'd have an opportunity to kind of connect and learn about it. It'd be more about you learning about the thing than it would be about, you know, trying to express an emotion. Or it could be you're trying to explore the depths of your imagination and trying to push the limits of your mind where you have like something in your working memory, but once you put it out into some sort of spatial representation, then you're able to then take it further and to expand your imagination in some way.
[00:25:59.632] Estella Tse: Yeah, I think about that a lot in terms of what I'm focusing on, right? Like am I doing something more realistic or am I just expressing myself, right? Or am I doing something for communicating a certain way or am I just personally expressing physically something that I want to do? do in Tilt Brush or in Blocks. There's a difference of that and I think as artists we do have that kind of like push and pull of like how much of this I want to put into this piece or how much is more expressive voice versus doing the job, you know. I think there's a difference. So there's a range of that.
[00:26:34.917] Kent Bye: And for you, what do you want to experience in VR?
[00:26:38.000] Estella Tse: Hmm. I don't know, actually. I like to keep it open-minded. I like to see what comes out, and I'm always surprised about what people are making and what they're doing. There's definitely projects I'm interested to explore, and definitely storytelling and choose-your-own-adventure type things, and how that could play out visually in an experience is very intriguing to me. Very interested in designing the visuals for something like that, and playing with contrast, one dimension versus another dimension or something like that. But otherwise, in terms of what other people are making, I'm just open-ended to see what people do. I really like things that are inspirational, and that are good, and that are positive, because I think that we need more of that right now. I try to make work that is inspirational and positive. Actually, going back to what you were saying, I just mentioned I did this really creepy piece, and it's a weird creepy manifestation of my emotions and stuff. But I try to mostly focus on things that are inspirational for other people to experience. That's really important to me.
[00:27:41.547] Kent Bye: Great. And finally, what do you think is the ultimate potential of virtual reality and what it might be able to enable?
[00:27:50.911] Estella Tse: I think it could change the world. I don't think my brain can fully grasp how. I think that we can help people see the world differently when they go into VR. That's why I feel like we have a responsibility in the content that we create.
[00:28:11.203] Kent Bye: Awesome. Is there anything else that's left unsaid that you'd like to say?
[00:28:15.905] Estella Tse: I just love being part of this. This is really great. I feel very privileged and really lucky to be part of this community and this space. And just going back to the responsibility part, I think that we always often have to keep in mind the humanity in the work that we're doing in this technology. That's really, really important for me as a creator, as an influencer. Are we thinking about how this influences other people? Are we doing things to make this accessible to others? Are we including everyone that we need to include? Is this diverse enough? Are all those voices being heard? And should they be heard? And will they be heard? How do we do that? How do we use this technology for that? We have a lot of power in that. And I feel like we should do something with it responsibly.
[00:29:00.798] Kent Bye: I agree. Awesome. Well, thank you so much.
[00:29:04.180] Estella Tse: Yeah. Thanks, Ken.
[00:29:07.059] Kent Bye: So that was Estela Che. She's a VR artist who was also a participant in Google's VR Artist in Residency program. So I have a number of different takeaways about this interview is that, first of all, It was super fascinating to hear Estella talk about a number of different things, but in particular, the way that she moves her body as she is drawing within virtual reality, how she listens to music and really gets into this rhythmic flow state, and how she found that even when she starts to try to draw in 2D, she finds that she really needs to get her entire body within that process. It sounds like she's coming from this illustration background, but that the more that she is painting within virtual reality, she really likes to put her entire body into it. And, you know, it's more of like this full embodied action. And she's also been studying sculpture, looking at these different Rodin sculptures from many different angles, and then try to recreate them within virtual reality. And that, you know, it sounds like that she started web design, web development, and then going back to school, studying animation and illustration, and then coming within that illustration background, getting into virtual reality art, where she was able to. Sculpt these 3d objects where, you know, she wasn't necessarily familiar with a lot of the different user interface interactions for something like blender or Maya, but she was still able to, with these virtual reality art programs, be able to start to create different objects. So it was also interesting to hear how these weird things that start to happen to her body. So she says that as her and other VR artists, they spend an incredible amount of time. She said that up to that point, it's back in 2017, she had spent over like 700 hours within virtual reality. And so. she'd start to notice these different things about her memory and starting to blur the lines between having reference images within virtual environments and then putting them into specific corners within the virtual environment and then forgetting that that was in a virtual environment and then actually going into that same part of her apartment and trying to find that photo and couldn't find the reference image and then realize that's because it was in the virtual reality and so just the the blurring of the lines between what the virtual and the real is and how the consistent thing between both the virtual and real is that it's very experiential. And that there is this sense of imperfection that she was really emphasizing that it has a certain amount of character and humanity when you don't try to get it completely perfect and kind of embracing that custom bespoke creation that happens in these different art programs, which I think that when you look at art that's created in the normal 2D user interfaces, it doesn't really afford for that type of messiness or human touch. It really feels like it's all these straight lines. And I think that Estella really appreciates that handcrafted quality to art that's being created within these programs like Tilt Brush or Medium or Quill or Google Blocks. that she actually enjoys the different constraints and not having layers and to just treat it a lot more like painting where you have to actually just train yourself to get better and to do it right the first time or to just kind of trust your own intuition or to just be satisfied with the imperfections and to not feel like you have to undo a lot and I think there's a little bit of the process of Artists like when I talked to Android Jones And when he says that whenever he doesn't undo or save it kind of blocks the different flow states so just trying to get to the point where you're just in a flow state creating and Being satisfied with whatever comes out And that whenever Estelle is making something, she's looking at these variety of different intentions, whether or not it is trying to aim towards some sort of realism or trying to more abstractly express something within herself or to try to communicate anything specifically, or if it's more about inner exploration and more about her own exploration of a concept or idea. And if she's trying to do something as an expressive voice or just trying to get a job done and satisfy the requirements of whatever the contract gig that she has. So that's all that I have for today, and I just wanted to thank you for listening to the Voices of VR podcast. And if you enjoy the podcast, then please do spread the word, tell your friends, leave a review on iTunes, and consider becoming a member of the Patreon. This is a listener supported podcast, and so I do rely upon listeners like yourself to be able to continue and sustain this type of coverage. So you can donate and become a member today at patreon.com slash Voices of VR. Thanks for listening.
