TPCast is a Chinese company that was one of the first in the world to provide a wireless VR peripheral solution that could viably eliminate the cable tether of a VR HMD. I talk with co-founder David Jiang at CES 2017 about some of the early solutions for creating wireless VR.
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Rough Transcript
[00:00:05.412] Kent Bye: The Voices of VR Podcast. Hello, my name is Kent Bye and welcome to the Voices of VR podcast. So I've been covering a lot of different Chinese connected companies over the last number of podcasts. And one of the areas where I think that China has actually been on the forefront of coming out with consumer solutions to virtual reality problems is the wireless different solutions, especially from TP Cast, which they had launched over a year ago now and I was at CES back in 2017 and had a chance to try out their demos they were showing there. And I know that they've been continuing to iterate and release this wireless solution. So, you know, the first number of years we've been having, you know, the high end virtual reality headsets with a wire and a tether. and that tether really does tether you to the ground and it kind of grounds you into you know having this split awareness that you aren't fully immersed and my experience of having something like tp cast uh at least the early versions of it that i had was that it did start to break that tether although there was these different trade-offs between like a little bit of, you know, potential latency or things that, you know, you have this kind of hot battery pack that you have to carry around. But I think that they've likely been creating a lot of different solutions for that, either creating an accessory belt and then, you know, just getting the latency down. As I look on Reddit, it seems like that people are really happy with the level of latency and just the difference that it makes in your degree of immersion and presence when you're in a virtual reality headset and you're not tethered to any wire. Now, in talking to a number of different people within the VR industry, I think that people like Qualcomm are saying that the future is going to be completely like mobile VR. And then when I talked to compilers of Intel, he's like, yeah, but you know, if you look at how actual technology progresses, that there's always going to be the high end people that want like the highest and best graphics that are out there. And I think that because of that, you are going to have people that still have like the cutting edge PCs, that are going to be sending over these very high-resolution experiences, and it may be through some type of wireless solution. I know that there's a number of different solutions that are developing and that are out there, whether it's WiGig or something like TP-Cast, which is something that they're creating their own protocol. So I had a chance to talk to one of the co-founders, David Jiang, at CES back on Friday, January 6, 2017, at the Consumer Electronics Show in Las Vegas, Nevada. But with that, let's go ahead and dive right in.
[00:02:37.845] David Jiang: I'm co-founder of TP-Cast. My name is David Jiang. Our TP-Cast company is based in Beijing, China. And we are a company that we develop wireless devices for many years. We have our own protocol named TP-Cast. And TP-Cast 1.0 support a wireless TV, wireless monitor, and wireless cards. Actually, we have provided wireless modules for those manufacturers for a long time. In last year, in 2016, we have brought out TP-Cast 2.0, which is a new protocol for wireless VR, which can support much bigger resolution at much higher refresh rate and with very low latency. Yeah, that's our advantage.
[00:03:34.100] Kent Bye: And so maybe you could tell me a bit about what were you doing before with your wireless technology and how you had to change that in order to do VR.
[00:03:43.665] David Jiang: We have been in the wireless display industry for a long time. Before, we provide wireless modules for television and monitors and cars manufacturers, such as AOC, Philips. They now have televisions with our module on the market. Yeah, you can buy them. Yes. Yeah.
[00:04:05.037] Kent Bye: And then, so what kind of protocol do you have to do? Is it over Wi-Fi? Or how does the data actually get from the computer into the virtual reality headset?
[00:04:16.300] David Jiang: Okay, so there is the difference between our protocol with other protocol is that our protocol is a bidirectional display and feedback transmission protocol. That is the most important part is the bidirection. So we can wireless transfer the HDMI and at the same time we can wireless transfer the feedback control signals. back to PC. There is a most important difference between our protocol from the other ones, is that the low latency. With other protocols, there will be much higher latency. And with our TPCAST 2.0 protocol, you can get near zero latency. Have you tried?
[00:05:08.662] Kent Bye: Yeah, I had a chance to try it and it does, yeah, and it looks good. The one thing that I did find was that there's a couple of times that were some dropped frames or it would turn blue periodically. And so, yeah, I don't know if, you know, how do you measure consistent frame rates or whether or not there are dropped frames or actually measuring the performance of the frame rate that you're receiving and make sure that you're hitting a consistent 90 frames per second.
[00:05:36.174] David Jiang: OK. You know, in this environment, we have a lot of booths here, opening. So the situation you just met, I think, is because of the lighthouse interference. So you lost lighthouse tracking. It's not our problem, actually.
[00:05:53.929] Kent Bye: Yes. So what is your method for measuring what latency you're getting in the headset? So how do you put a number to that?
[00:06:02.189] David Jiang: That's a technical question. I have to let our technical guide to explain it. As far as I know that we have a testing method for the specification you want to test. Yes.
[00:06:16.278] Kent Bye: And so, are you doing any data compression in order to send this information over wirelessly?
[00:06:21.860] David Jiang: Actually, almost no compression. With compression, there will be latency, yes. So, in order to achieve near zero latency, we did almost no compression.
[00:06:39.256] Kent Bye: And so the other thing that I experienced with TP Cast is that there is a battery and it's in my pocket and it gets a little warm. And so I'm just curious to hear about, you know, how long does the battery last and are there ways to make it more comfortable so that there's not a lot of heat on my body?
[00:06:55.613] David Jiang: Okay, actually this battery you are experiencing is a XL version the standard version of battery can last two hours Yes, and we also have this XL version for option Yes How long does that battery last? The XL version can last five hours. Yes, but it doubles the size and weight.
[00:07:20.462] Kent Bye: And so in terms of heat, I just felt a lot of heat from the battery. Are there other ways to put it off your body or clip it? Or I guess that's the trade-off is that you have the weight and the heat that's on your body. And so I'm just curious to hear what you may have designed to be able to mitigate that.
[00:07:38.889] David Jiang: Yes. We will have this... I don't know how to say it. A belt? Yes. We will design some accessories that can make you wear the battery more comfortable. Yes, right now it's just a prototype you just experienced. Yes.
[00:07:54.561] Kent Bye: And so, how did you get involved within virtual reality? What was it that really got you interested in doing this specific product with VR?
[00:08:04.350] David Jiang: Yes, I was interested in VR for many years. Since 2014 we know that Facebook has acquired Oculus. Since then we are totally interested in VR and we are thinking about what we can do in the VR industry. Actually, we are very lucky that we have a lot of know-how in wireless display field. So, when we get HTC Vive last year, we found the cable should be wireless. Yes, it's a pain point. And with our technology, we do very fast developing and we brought out our product very quickly. And we are very proud that we can contribute to this industry, to make the industry move forward much faster with our wireless technology.
[00:09:04.337] Kent Bye: And so, why is wireless VR important from your perspective?
[00:09:09.557] David Jiang: Every person that experienced HTC Vive, they will say, wow, at first. And then the second sentence they will say is, if only there is no wire, right? I've seen many, many people that experienced the HTC Vive. So I think this is the pain point that everybody can sense. For example, the golf, VR game of golf. Golf, the golf game. Golf. Have you experienced that? No. Okay, so just now a gentleman tell me that when he hit the ball, he will turn around to look for the ball, but he will be tangled by the cable, his leg. Yes. It's pinpoint every situation in VR games.
[00:10:05.076] Kent Bye: Yes. And how far of a distance can you go and still have a wireless transmission?
[00:10:12.618] David Jiang: Actually, our antenna can go as far as 25 meters. But, however, we now restrict the area in 5 by 5 meters. Yeah, for the standard HTC Vive user case.
[00:10:29.721] Kent Bye: I see. And do you have a favorite memory of being in virtual reality and playing a game or interacting in some way?
[00:10:39.405] David Jiang: Yeah, I love raw data. Yeah. Also the lab, Long Bao. Yes, I love them very much. There is a time that I played raw data with our prototype, wireless prototype, many months ago. Yeah. And I forgot I was in the VR world. I just shoot and shoot and shoot and the time passed very quickly. And after an hour or so, I found my hand just cannot hold up from a mobile phone. Yeah, it's too tired actually. I just forgot.
[00:11:15.122] Kent Bye: Yeah. And what else is happening in Beijing in virtual reality? What other types of community or things are happening with other people in the VR field that are making things there?
[00:11:28.505] David Jiang: OK. Actually, I think HTC ViveX has done a lot of work at this field. They have supported our developers a lot. Yes. Maybe you know ViveX Demo Day? Yeah. Maybe you could tell me about it, though. Yes, Vivex has demoed a lot of startup companies in VR and those companies are very good I think. Their content are like us, hardware. I think VR industry is growing very fast these years in Beijing.
[00:12:03.857] Kent Bye: Yeah, and it seems like in China there's a lot of manufacturing that's available and that you're able to put together both the engineering but also manufacture it and produce it. And it seems like because you're in China, you're able to actually bring it to market faster.
[00:12:19.244] David Jiang: Yes, definitely. Because we have Shenzhen. All the manufacturers we can find in Shenzhen.
[00:12:26.939] Kent Bye: Great. And so did you also get funding from the Chinese government? No. Okay. So you just primarily get funding from the HTC ViveX program?
[00:12:37.885] David Jiang: We invest by ourselves a lot. Yeah. Also, ViveX have invested us also. Yes. And how much does it cost? In US market, it will cost $249. Yeah. And when is it available? When does it come out here? It will come out in US market in Q2 this year.
[00:13:02.720] Kent Bye: Great. And finally, what do you see as the ultimate potential of virtual reality and what it might be able to enable?
[00:13:12.635] David Jiang: Okay, I can hardly say what's the biggest application in VR in the future, but I think that most content, almost every content should be in VR in the future. So the game, the movie, everything should be in VR actually. Right now I'm looking forward to a football game in VR. It doesn't come out right now. I'm looking forward to it. What else do you want to do in VR? In personal, I'm very interested in photography, so I'm very curious how we can do photography in VR. I'm very curious and very interested in that.
[00:14:02.461] Kent Bye: Is there anything else that's left unsaid that you'd like to say?
[00:14:08.415] David Jiang: Yes, I really want to encourage the developers of VR to forget about the cables from now on. Before, they have to remember that there is a cable behind the player's head. So they won't let the player spin and spin and spin. They cannot give complete freedom to the player. And from now on, I want to encourage them to forget about the cable thing. Yes, they can completely give the player the freedom in VR world. Awesome. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you very much.
[00:14:48.901] Kent Bye: So that was David Jiang. He's one of the co-founders of TPcast and talking about wireless solutions for virtual reality. So I have a number of different takeaways about this interview is that, first of all, I do think that in the future that we are going to have some type of tellerless and wireless solution. I think that the wires and virtual reality are going to be an artifact that was only on, you know, this early iteration of the technology. and that eventually I expect it to kind of be perhaps built in into the technology in some ways. It'll be interesting to see what happens with some of these standalone headsets, something like the HTC Focus or the Santa Cruz. Oculus Go is out there, but you don't have 60 degree freedom controllers, and so I don't foresee that being a mechanism by which you're going to be streaming over from a computer. It's great for being able to stream like Netflix and 2D films, but once you start to have like volumetric and spatial computing, then I think that the Oculus Go is a bit of a stopgap and who knows how long it'll be out there and available. Maybe there'll always be a place for people who want to just have a virtual reality headset for passive, you know, immersive media consumption. But the Santa Cruz is I think where things are going to be headed in that, you know, people more and more are going to want full volumetric interactions with their technology. So I think it's kind of an open question as to whether or not we'll see some type of convergence from something like the Oculus Rift headset and whether or not we'll be able to have experiences from PC and getting it onto the Santa Cruz because you know, having a chance to actually try out the Santa Cruz, it's kind of like something in between where the Gear VR is and something that you can do on the Oculus Rift. I mean, maybe it's maybe a third better, and maybe there's a huge gap between the level of fidelity and types of interactions that you can have that are driven by a PC. So I'm kind of agreeing with Kim Pallister here and just sensing that, I don't sense that we're going to be completely eliminating the PC, especially for the hardcore gamers and people that want the highest fidelity of types of experiences. Sure, we're gonna have a lot of mobile computers that are out there, but we have iPads and tablet computers, but people who are doing this hardcore Maya development or computer programming are not doing it necessarily on an iPad. Maybe some people are, the people who are like super serious about their computing still want the PC to be able to interface and do their computing, especially if they're professionals and want to be as efficient as they possibly can. Just the same, I think there's going to be people who are these hardcore PC gamers that always want that highest fidelity of experience that is out there, especially if you start to have other things like haptic vests and other things like that. You want to be able to have something that is an open platform that can allow you to add more and more of these different types of peripherals and that there's just going to be always some limit to the power consumption and the constraints of some of these mobile VR headsets. So with that, I think that TP-Cast is going to be able to potentially close the gap between giving you that type of tetherless mobile experience without the wire, but still have all the affordances of what your PC can be able to give you. that it is have like the bi-directional communication so that you are having your sensors and all the stuff that you're doing with your 60-degree freedom controllers and all of your actual buttons and everything you're pressing getting sent back to the computer and then being rendered and being sent back and There's this kind of like closed loop that has happening there And apparently the latency is low enough that it's like just negligible enough that the convenience of not having that cord is good enough. And people just searching on the different VR Reddits seem to really love the TPCast and say that it's totally worth it. I personally don't have one. And I also personally don't see a lot of people demoing with it yet. So I don't know if that's just because there's a little bit more of uncertainty as to what would happen without that tether. There's something that as a developer, you know, that your experience is going to work. I just haven't seen a lot of people adopting the TP cast when I'm out doing demos out at conferences. And so it could be a part of the constraint of the different types of experiences that are being made and that it's like, they're not really pushing the limits of what you can do. Like they're not expecting you to do like these. 360 turns or anything like that. But I have found that, you know, even playing something like Beat Saber, where you are constrained from doing these exotic twists and turns and spinning around or even doing hula hooping while doing some of these experiences was something that I would love to try out. But because of that, I just haven't seen a lot of people that have been using TP-Cast as part of the demo. So that's just an interesting data point that I've noticed. I will say that I guess there have been a few people that have done that, especially some of the location-based entertainment stuff. So that tends to be a little bit more where you start to see it, especially if you're kind of roaming around an open area. So that's all that I have for today. And I just wanted to thank you for listening to the Voices of VR podcast. And if you enjoy the podcast, then spread the word, tell your friends, leave a review on iTunes and spread the word on your social media. And I've been doing this series on China. And if you're on WeChat, then share it with your friends on WeChat and yeah, just help get the word out there. And also consider becoming a donor to the podcast. All this work that I'm doing is supported by my listeners. And if you want to support me, then $5 is a great amount to be able to support me each month. 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