#497: The Future of VR Arcades with VRsenal

HTC announced the Vive Tracker at CES this year, which will enable a range of VR peripherals that are targeted to from consumers to high-end virtual reality arcades. One of the higher-end peripherals that debuted was VRsenal’s VR-15, which has built-in haptics and the same weight distribution as a M-15 and AR-15. I had a chance to catch up with VRsenal CEO Ben Davenport who talked about targeting the digital out-of-home entertainment and VR arcade market with their integrated solutions of commercial-off-the-shelf VR hardware, VR backpacks and haptic vests with customizations and top-of-the-line gun peripherals with an integrated Vive tracker.

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While VR hardware is expected to continually improve over each successive generation, Davenport makes the claim that
limited real estate within the homes will drive consumers to VR arcades that will be able to provide better compelling experiences given extra space. He says that competitive VR games are limited by teleportation and locomotion constraints, and that being able to physically move around large spaces will open up the types of social interactions that are possible with laser tag or paint ball.

He expects to see a return to the golden era of arcades when they could provide a more compelling and visceral experience than what’s possible with consumer VR within a home. High-end haptic devices will also likely be a differentiating factor as the passive haptic feedback from the VR-15 peripheral combined with embodied gameplay is able to deliver a compelling experience that people will be willing to pay for. He also expects to people eventually going through non-gaming and non-entertainment virtual and augmented experiences while they are co-located in the same physical environment.

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Rough Transcript

[00:00:05.452] Kent Bye: The Voices of VR Podcast. My name is Kent Bye and welcome to the Voices of VR Podcast. So one of the most significant announcements to come out of CES this year was the Vive Tracker. And what this is allowing different companies to do is to attach this tracker and then be able to bring in to a virtual reality experience all sorts of different peripherals. Now, I think that there's probably going to be a consumer market of different peripherals that people are going to be buying that are going to integrate into different virtual reality experiences. But then there's going to be a whole other class of different peripherals that are not really aiming towards the consumer market, but they're actually trying to create best, highest quality experience that are going to be aimed for the digital out-of-home entertainment market for these virtual reality arcades. So on today's episode, I'm featuring Ben Davenport, who is the CEO of vArsenal, and they're essentially an integrator of commercial off-the-shelf parts, and they're trying to create a holistic experience that is an arcade experience that's best in class. But one of the things that stood out the most, I think, is their high-end VR-15 peripheral, which is essentially this gun that has a Vive tracker attached to it that is approximately the same weight as a real M16 or AR-16, and the higher version even has some of the actual parts from an AR-15 that could be used in military training exercises. So I think one of the big takeaways for me from CES is that there's actually going to be a big virtual reality arcade market. If it doesn't really take off here in the United States, then it's already start to really blossom in China. And so one of the points that Ben makes in this interview is that the technology will get cheaper and cheaper and we'll be able to have higher and higher fidelity experiences within our home. But the one thing that's not going to change is our access to real estate to have enough space for many people to be able to have these competitive types of virtual reality experiences. And that's one of the things that VRCNL is focusing on that I think is different than anything else that I've seen. After going through one of their experiences, I can definitely say that having access to a high-end gun within virtual reality actually deepens your sense of immersion. And to be able to actually compete against your friends, I think, is going to create that same type of experience that you get from laser tag and paintball, but to be able to have a much more deeper type of gameplay within virtual reality. So that's what we'll be covering on today's episode of the Voices of VR podcast. But first, a quick word from our sponsor. Today's episode is brought to you by the Silicon Valley Virtual Reality Conference and Expo. SVVR is the can't miss virtual reality event of the year. It brings together the full diversity of the virtual reality ecosystem. And I often tell people if they can only go to one VR conference, then be sure to make it SVVR. You'll just have a ton of networking opportunities and a huge expo floor that shows a wide range of all the different VR industries. SAVR 2017 is happening March 29th to 31st, so go to VRExpo.com to sign up today. So, this interview with Ben happened at the Consumer Electronics Show that was happening in Las Vegas from January 5th to 8th, 2017. So, with that, let's go ahead and dive right in.

[00:03:31.987] Ben Davenport: I'm Ben Davenport, I'm the CEO of VRsenal and we're a high-end commercial VR peripheral and systems integrator. So there's a lot of parts and pieces in VR and not a whole lot of systems and the VR That hype train, if you want to call it that, has created a lot of demand in the out-of-home entertainment space, in casinos, in hotels, in theme parks, in fun centers, and they've really bought that VR is the future. And they're afraid of being left behind, but they don't know how to participate because they're not VR experts, they're not VR developers, they don't want to go out and buy a headset here and a glove here and try to figure out how to stitch it all together. What they want is a fully integrated turnkey system. And so that's what we set out to build.

[00:04:21.204] Kent Bye: So yeah, it sounds like you're really targeting the digital out-of-home entertainment, the VR arcades. And so maybe you could talk about the hardware, the gun, and the stuff that you're showing here at the CES and HTC Vibes booth areas.

[00:04:35.100] Ben Davenport: Yes, so we specifically develop and focus on things that are missing. There already are great HMDs in the market like Oculus and the Vive. And so we don't really see value in coming on and saying we're going to make an HMD too. So what's missing is a really good and high-end rifle peripheral. And so we set out to build the VR-15. And it's not a prototype. It's currently available to commercial partners. And we've got them installed in Dubai and here in Vegas at the Link Casino. and they're rolling out in a bunch more locations. But it's, you know, a high-end, hyper-realistic, virtual weapon, and we designed it to be the best on the market. And we think we've accomplished that. It's incorporated with full haptics and analog thumbsticks, both on the left and the right-hand side, so it's ambidextrous. and we've got two versions, one with a fully adjustable stock that's heavier. For larger people, mostly men really like it, but we've also got a carving version so that we can accommodate women, children, and different body types and sizes. We also went ahead and developed the haptic backpack to go with it. And so every time you pull the trigger of the VR-15, you feel that rumble in the rifle, you feel it in the backpack. And a lot of people say, well, don't you need to have the haptics on the front and all these other things? And what we're trying to build is stuff that is commercially usable today by real operators. A lot of the full-body haptic things and suits and vests, it takes two guys to put it on. It takes five minutes. That's not commercially viable, that type of turnaround time. So we've kind of taken the Hitchcock approach. Hitchcock gave your mind enough information so that it filled in the blanks and quite often your mind created something better than if he had tried to show the monster. directly, he would have been able to have done. So instead of trying to create a haptic shoot that takes eight minutes to get into and gives you all these feelings from all these directions, when you pull that trigger and you see it visually, you hear it, the crack of the gun, you feel it rumble in your hands and there's this reverberation in your chest, your mind fills in a blank and says, recoil, and it works.

[00:06:42.493] Kent Bye: Yeah, and so the gameplay mechanic that you have that I haven't seen a lot of other games use, I mean I guess there are some games like Damaged Core that use it with the Xbox controller, but there's something quite different of being able to actually hold a physical object in your hand and be able to have this mixed reality type of experience and be able to have some situational awareness when you put the gun down and you look at the scene and then you can It just gives it a lot more sense of immersion and a sense of presence when you have that. So maybe you could talk a bit about what you were trying to design in that gameplay that you feel is unique that you're able to do in an arcade situation but not necessarily be at the price point at this point for the consumers to be able to do.

[00:07:21.075] Ben Davenport: Right, right. And we think that last point you made will change. I mean, just like most things that start out at NASA and the military, you know, you develop the tech in the industries that can afford it. And then Moore's Law and economies of scale eventually bring that price down. And then that technology, so much of what we use today, was developed in huge programs by NASA and the military. And now we all use it every single day, like microwave ovens. So that's going to happen here, too. And that's, of course, in our roadmap. You know, in talking about the experiences we can bring to people now, a lot is said in VR about being able to put the gamer into the game. But, you know, when you start building peripherals like the VR15, you can actually put the game in the player's hands. And the more cross-section you can create between the two worlds, the more it becomes fuzzy to the mind where one ends and where one begins. And it's not just putting physical people into digital worlds, it's also taking the digital images in those worlds and being able to put them physically into people's hands. It just increases the immersion all that much more. And it's something that we've looked at and said, we think that arcades, which came out in the 80s, ultimately lost favor because consoles just ended up providing a better experience. They just blew them out of the water. And we don't think that's going to happen in regards to VR arcades, because It's true, headset costs will come down and that's really all that happened in the 80s. It was really expensive to own. a video game console when it was a big box, and then all of a sudden you could just stick it in a little cabinet in your living room, and why go pay money to play it at a mall? And it's true that the price of headsets will come down, and that will become easier, but what's never going to come down is the cost of the space in your home that it's going to take up. And if you want to play with two or three people, you know, that cost of space is never going to shrink. It's always going to be the size it is. And so we believe that creating social environments where people can go with their friends and that has space where people can put on two, three, four headsets and play multiplayer games, we believe that's going to be a permanent fixture that's not going to go away in the future or be erased by, you know, economies of scale and the cost of headsets coming down. So we've set out from the beginning You know, a lot of companies right now are pivoting into the out-of-home space because the in-home space isn't developing as quickly as many would have liked. But we set out to create these premier experiences for the out-of-home space from the start. That's been our focus. We've been pretty quiet. VRsenal has been in stealth mode for two years. We haven't really participated in the build tech demos for investors to attract investment phase. We've kind of been busy building finished products for end users. And we've really had that out-of-home target as our goal. And that's allowed us to look at the technology and say, what can be built? Instead of looking at an in-home price point and saying, what can be built? And it's freed us to create some really premium experiences, and I think The out-of-home entertainment market is going to be able to continue to offer those kind of really high-end experiences and people are going to continue to value those and pay for them.

[00:10:38.922] Kent Bye: Can you elaborate a little bit more on your design process of the gun peripheral that you've made and all the different design intentions that you had behind it?

[00:10:47.551] Ben Davenport: Sure, absolutely. But I want to comment on that, you know, we're not really just like a peripheral manufacturer or a gun designer. I mean, VRsenal is really looking for the full solution. So we have a product called the Holocube, which is a four station VR portal. It only takes up 200 square feet, 50 square feet per player. It comes fully themed with lighting and staging, and it's got four 4K televisions facing in every direction so the crowd can participate. You know, we have great high-fidelity Bose speakers that project the sound for each station. We don't put headphones on people. We don't put headphones on people because you hear complaints that VR is isolating. But, you know, when you've got a bunch of your friends with you and one of them just played a game and then you step in and you're playing it and you're not doing so good and you hear your friends shouting out, like, come on, come on. It's actually a very social experience when you don't put those headphones on. So we let that high-quality sound be the sound that both the player and the audience is hearing, and then people can communicate, and it creates a very social experience. So, you know, we're really looking at a holistic system. We're really a developer of turnkey solutions, be those arena scale, be they more of like the Holocube, which is servicing small footprint turnkey arcade style where you can roll that out in a mall, roll it out in a hotel lobby, roll it out in a casino like we've done here with Caesars. So we then build the peripherals, the rifles, the pistols, the haptics, all those things to populate those turnkey solutions. But in regards to the VR-15 design process, everything I just said always figures into it. We're always thinking about the end user, the operator. Is it going to last? Is it going to hold up? So it's built out of engineering-grade nylon, really heavy construction. you know, the battery life is 36 hours. So, you know, an operator can charge it at night and it runs all day long. They don't have to keep changing batteries and all these things. But also things like we have the haptic vest that comes on it. It's designed so that, you know, we've tested it on people who are six foot eight and weighed 300 pounds and it'll fit on my eight-year-old son. It'll fit on men and women, so it's anatomically correct. It's quick to get in. It's quick to get out. It's comfortable. These are all types of things that have to be considered when you're designing for the end user in a commercial environment. And then we have a connection on the haptic vest that has a sling that quick disconnects into the gun. Because one of the concerns from operators is, oh, this gun's expensive, and what if people drop it? And it's like, well, we'll get you taken care of. This haptic vest actually also secures the gun to keep it from falling to the floor. If somebody drops it, it's never going to hit it. So all those things come into the design process. and of course the aesthetics of the gun. A lot of people say, well, what does the aesthetics matter? You're in VR. You can't see it. It's like, well, it's actually pretty cool when we work closely with the game developers and actually hand them our 3D files and they actually incorporate the exact gun. And so it's an odd feeling when somebody holds up a gun and it's the exact gun in the game. Even one of the games were integrated with ROM extraction by First Contact. they've actually done inverse kinematics so that when you move the analog controller you actually see the thumb on the character move around. Same thing with another game we're integrated with, The Nest, it's a sniper game. And it's just so fun to actually lean down to the gun model in the game and the gun model in your hand and there's a scope right where it should be. So those type of things have an effect inside of VR, but also outside of VR, people are watching, especially in an arcade environment where the operator is hoping people open their wallets and step inside. Well, you know, you may be seeing wonderful things inside, but the people are going to make decisions whether to pay by what they see outside. And it's often said that, oh, you know, you look like such a dork when you put on this headset. It's like, well, this is a way to transfer people from looking like the dork of the future into the soldier of the future. It's a selling point. It's theatrics. And it's impressive. People buy Lamborghinis not because they can see the outside of it while they're inside of it. They buy Lamborghinis because everyone else can see the outside of it while they're inside of it.

[00:15:06.259] Kent Bye: Well, there also is an element of a passive haptic feedback where you can actually potentially change the way that the gun looks and as long as you have your hands in certain places and that the expected weight distribution is still kind of the same, you have the ability to have all sorts of different crazy and wild guns at the same time, it sounds like.

[00:15:25.058] Ben Davenport: That's absolutely correct. So in The Nest, you know, the gun is very one-for-one, but then they added in the scope, which, you know, they did their own thing on the scope. But your hands don't touch the scope, so there's no disconnect. All the parts you touch are identical, and they put in this cool scope, and it matches up just fine in your mind. Same thing in ROM extraction, they added an orb launcher. onto the front of the gun, which is not actually in our model, but your hands don't touch that part. So you're absolutely right, you can transform the gun. What's important in your mind is that the part your hands touch stay the same.

[00:15:59.986] Kent Bye: Great, and is the haptic vest that you have, is that sort of a modification of the sub-pack, or is that something you independently developed on your own?

[00:16:06.725] Ben Davenport: So ultimately what we try to do is we try to everywhere we can is to not say we're going to build our own HMD. We're going to build our own. We try to leverage the best in class technology. But all of that technology doesn't always fit the requirements. And so we do use a high quality haptic vest. as our base, but that haptic vest, as it comes, doesn't really have fast enough wireless for a really high quality experience. So we basically built our own wireless connection to the guts of that system, which are great, super high quality. And so now we can actually integrate with our haptics wirelessly with less than 14 milliseconds latency. And so you see it, you hear it, you feel it at the same time.

[00:16:54.104] Kent Bye: Great. And is this also something that would have a use case for the military in terms of doing military training?

[00:17:00.207] Ben Davenport: We've actually been invited by the Defense Intelligence Agency to come to Quantico FBI headquarters, and we're one of four companies that were invited to present to a select group of members of the Secret Service, the CIA, the FBI, and the armed forces. We were unfortunately at IAPA that week, the big theme park and amusement trade show. And I was just like, we can't come. And they said, well, we want you to come in 2017. So the interest is definitely there. They picked up the VR15. And we're just like, wow, this is the best thing we've seen. And we'd really like to see how we can integrate that. So lots and lots of opportunities. As they say, there's always room at the top. Build the best that's out there. And there's always room for that to make an impact.

[00:17:45.677] Kent Bye: And is that because there's the weight distribution or the fabrication or what is it that you think is unique about it that is far and beyond what else is out there?

[00:17:53.983] Ben Davenport: So I think it's attention to detail. I mean, first of all, it does have the exact same weight of a real M16 or AR-15. It has the same weight distribution and balance. We actually use real AR-15 adjustable stocks and grips. So once again, further to that thing where you were saying previously, as long as the parts your hands touch, match, you can change the gun in VR, well if those parts your hands match are actually the real parts from the gun you're simulating, even better, you know, even more immersive. And so we're even working to improve that on the police and law enforcement training side. We're actually working to actually put in realistic slides so that they can actually do weapons training, not just simulation training where you've got a gun, but actually be able to operate the gun with all the safety switches and everything and have all of that modeled into VR and matched in reality. So we're working to even increase that higher for that level of training. A lot of people think that in gaming VR, you want it to be as real as possible, and that's actually not the case. People are like, yeah, I want to run around inside of Halo. It's like, do you know how much you run inside of Halo? You don't want to run around that much. Or people are like, I want real recoils. Like, how much have you shot a rifle? Recoil's the worst part of shooting, not the best part. So it comes back to that thing I was saying with Hitchcock. It's not always best to show the monster. Sometimes it's best to insinuate it and the mind does a better job than we could do.

[00:19:27.012] Kent Bye: And can you talk a bit about the multiplayer considerations when you're doing more of an arcade style VR experience rather than something that may be transferred over the internet and the network with additional latency? I mean, imagine that you're able to get a deeper sense of social presence and lower latency when you have multiple players. But from just a design perspective, from what you're doing, what are you able to do that you can't do in the home?

[00:19:51.766] Ben Davenport: Well, in our arena-scale solutions, where you actually put on backpack computers with fully integrated haptics, which we have that, you're actually able to move through the environment. And one of the problems with multiplayer right now, and the reason why you see so few multiplayer, is because the primary means of locomotion, when you're not physically moving through the environment, is teleportation. And teleportation is an issue in multiplayer when it's versus. Because how do you shoot your opponent when he's like teleporting all around and just disappearing? Now that's why you see multiplayer co-op modes. You see multiplayer co-op modes because you've got players playing together against AI. And then the game developers compensate for you disappearing all over the place by just sending hordes at you. But when you're playing you against your buddy, you aren't a horde. And you have to be able to shoot him, and he's just disappearing all over the place. So the reason why you're not seeing a lot of multiplayer versus is it is a locomotion issue. And so when you're actually in a facility, in an arena, and you can actually move through that space, you've removed that locomotion issue. And at that point, you can actually have eight on eight or four on four and move through that space and actually get that sense of actually being there.

[00:21:06.607] Kent Bye: What other kind of obstacles or things do you have in this arena environment to be able to perhaps duck behind? And is there kind of a mixed reality component where you're able to have physical things in there, but yet I would imagine the trade-off is that could limit your freedom to do virtual blocks. I'm just curious how you handle that.

[00:21:25.250] Ben Davenport: I think that's a good observation, and that's the main crux of it. They're both valid options. Do you want to put chocolate frosting or do you want cream cheese frosting? Those are both good frostings, and I imagine we're going to see both of these types of scenarios evolve. You can say, well, we're going to do this digital overlay over a physical world, and that's got validity. It's got a certain fun thing when you show up and to a digital shipping container and you reach out and it's there. That's great. But the trade-off is that's all that's ever going to be there. It's going to be there the next time you play, and the next time you play, and the next time you play. And so you've heightened that first experience, but it's best for virgins who are going through there, you know, VR virgins. It's like the first time you've experienced it, it's like, oh my, it's all here. But then, you know, what happens, you know, after you've come back three or four times, and it's just the same thing. If you don't put the physical props in, then you can play the game and be in a jungle, and the next time you can be in the desert, and the next time you can be in a shell-shocked city. So it leaves you a lot more creative options, but takes away some of the tactile. My personal feeling is that something in between those is the best. To have certain things like elevators, where you come in, you push a button, the floor rumbles, and you're going up in an elevator, Maybe switches you pull, or a torch, or you have items that are really powerful, have a powerful impact, but ultimately would be easy to replace or change out for different type of things. And that way you get some of the benefits of the tactile, where they're going to have the most impact, but you haven't filled up the whole space with it, so it's not easy to change.

[00:22:56.479] Kent Bye: So what do you want to do in virtual reality then? What do you want to experience?

[00:23:00.453] Ben Davenport: I want to experience what so many people have said. I've probably got a hundred articles, keynote speeches, and different things at home where the statement is made, when we all first thought of virtual reality, what we all wanted to do was run around inside of Halo or COD, you know, and then it's followed by But too bad, we can't do that. That's not going to work, you know, because you're going to get sick and you're going to throw up. And so you're going to have to play these other types of games. And I think these other types of games are great. You know, the Holocube is filled with games like Audio Shield. Fantastic game, loved by men and women and young and old. It's a great game. But these are the only games you're going to be able to have because you just can't do that. And so we looked and said, hmm, that's not acceptable. That's not OK. That's not OK. And so we took a hard look at the technology. And we're like, actually, the technology will allow us to do this. The price points people are trying to hit for in-home entertainment won't allow it to be done. And the space in homes won't allow it to be done. the technology will. And so that's why we shifted this focus to give people what myself, many of my friends, and so many of us have wanted is to run around inside of Halo or COD with a gun in your hands. And it's the thing that's enjoyed by millions of people. in the forms of paintball, in the forms of airsoft, in the forms of laser tag. But these technologies are decades old, decades old. And to be able to have a digital overlay over that kind of interaction, that interaction is really so simplistic and really one-dimensional. You're coming back to the same laser tag maze over and over and over and over again. You have one attack. You just pull the trigger. You pull the trigger. There's no creativity. There's no depth. And it's like trying to get a generation that grew up watching Lost to go back and watch these really simplistic, episodic TV shows from the 80s where the crisis arises and it's all resolved within 45 minutes. It's like you can't go back to that. I love a lot of the simplistic VR games, but one of the complaints you hear is that there's not enough depth, there's not enough depth. That's been the case with laser tag and those type of things from the beginning. There's just not enough depth and yet there's still multi-billion dollar industries because it's fun to be there with your friends and compete, but what we want is lost. We want to hire, we want to play laser tag, we want to play that kind of environment But we want depth. We want something more sophisticated. And that's what we're trying to give people. Not that what we're building can't be used by many other things, and it will be used by many other things. Arena-scale, free-roam VR will be used in museums, it'll be used for education, it'll be used for all kinds of things, besides running around with a gun and shooting your friends. But that's what so many millions of people have said. This is what we always envisioned, and we're trying to give people that.

[00:25:54.492] Kent Bye: Great. And finally, what do you see as kind of the ultimate potential of virtual reality, and what am I able to enable?

[00:26:03.186] Ben Davenport: Well, like I was just saying, I mean, I can definitely see the day coming, and it's going to be brought to us by Moore's Law. And the computers are going to get smaller, lighter. So whether we're wearing them or whether it ends up being wireless, we're going to be able to move through large spaces much easier than we can now. I mean, we've pulled together best-in-class stuff, and we can execute on that now, and we can move around through spaces. But you still have nine pounds of weight on your back, which isn't terrible. But it could be better, and it will be better. So whether it ends up being wearable computers, those computers are going to drop to three pounds. They're going to get lighter. They're going to become less noticeable. And the tracking is going to become more ubiquitous. And that's going to open up all kinds of things, like going to a museum and picking the exhibit you want to see. And you've got two people walking through a museum, and one's looking at ancient Egypt in the same space where the person next to them is looking at the space history. We're going to see amazing things that allow people to have so many more options in the same space rather than having to be bound by some of the stuff we were talking about even in the combat arena. Right now you go to a museum and it's got an exhibit, a certain set of exhibits and the only way to get new exhibits is to tear out the old ones but it's a dilemma because some people like the old ones and you've got Disney right now tearing out Tower of Terror in California and upgrading to Guardians of the Galaxy, and some people are like, yay, a Guardians of the Galaxy ride. And some people are saying, I grew up going on the Tower of Terror, and you're taking away my childhood, and I'll never be able to revisit it again, and there's petitions going around. But that's the downside of the physical world. You can have one or the other. You can't have both. And I love taking my kids to the museum, but it's the same thing over and over. It would be great to be able to go to a space, and it has 100 experiences. And I didn't have to take away someone's favorite one to get my new one. They can still come back and experience that, and I can experience something new. And we can be doing it at the same time, in the same space. That's the true multiverse.

[00:28:08.764] Kent Bye: Awesome. Well, thank you so much. Yeah, no problem. So that was Ben Davenport. He's the CEO of vArsenal, which is creating high-end peripherals and complete integrated solutions for digital out-of-home entertainment and VR arcade experiences. So I have a number of different takeaways about this interview is that first of all, my actual experience of playing this demo was that it actually makes a huge difference in terms of presence when you are holding a gun peripheral that you're shooting within a VR experience. It's one thing to hold two Vive controllers in your hand, but once you actually have something that is more closely mirrored to the weight that you're holding and actually getting that passive haptic feedback of that gun, it actually makes a huge difference in terms of presence. And so I'd expect that there's going to be a wide range of consumer available peripherals that are going to eventually hit the virtual reality market, especially for the Vive. But for what Ben is doing is that he's not necessarily trying to create a system that's going to be affordable for the consumer market, because there's all sorts of complicated haptics that are within the gun. He's trying to create the best in class for these types of VR arcade experiences. And then he said that the military looked at this and just saw that he was actually using some of the same stocks from an AR-15. And he was saying that that was very attractive to be able to use these types of guns in military training exercises, especially if you're able to get the same weight distribution and some of the exact feeling of what some of these guns would feel like. So one of the really interesting takeaways that I got from this interview was just the thing that Ben was saying about eventually the technology of virtual reality is going to come down in price so that it's going to be democratized across the consumer market and be able to have access to this in our homes. But yet the real estate is something that's never going to really actually come down. If anything, real estate is going to continue to go up and up. And so having enough space to be able to have virtual reality experiences with your friends where you're actually competing against each other rather than doing co-op experiences. Right now, because virtual reality locomotion is such an issue, even if you were to do a competitive virtual reality experience, you're going to be limited in terms of how you're able to actually move around physically within a space. But within a virtual reality arena type of scenario, you may have an open space where you're able to have these virtual barriers where you're able to hide behind, but also start to fight against each other and have a deeper sense of gameplay that goes beyond what either laser tag or paint gun could do, which is essentially a point and shoot. So there could be a lot more strategy elements that are added to these different virtual reality experiences. So Ben also made the point that he's really an integrator across all these different commercial off-the-shelf systems that are out there. Whether it's one of the MSI backpacks or taking a sub-pack and doing different modifications, Ben's trying to take a lot of these different commercial off-the-shelf hardware and be able to modify it. Because at this point he hasn't really taken a lot of venture capital money, he's able to not create a completely proprietary type of system, but use a lot of these different commercial off-the-shelf parts and start to integrate it himself, which over the long run I think will allow him to update and upgrade as the technologies improve. There's a number of different times that Ben was talking about the VR haptic vest that he was creating. And I just wanted to clarify and specify that he is actually taking a subpack and doing different modifications, including the wireless connection that he said had too much latency. And he also mentioned the possibility of being able to trigger the subpack action that goes beyond just the audio cues, but actually having an explicit programmatic way of being able to drive the rumble within the subpack that goes beyond the audio. He said that sometimes with the music or other things that are happening within an experience, if you're just queuing off of the audio, then sometimes it will not have the desired impact that he wanted, which was to actually trigger the sub pack on whenever you're shooting or feeling an explosion. And finally, I thought it was interesting to hear Ben talk about the possibility of being in physical locations with other people and that they may be having different virtual experiences. So maybe in the future, malls will be converted into these VR arcades that are super huge so that you could go in there and have a museum experience in that place while someone else is having these virtual shopping experiences. So that's all that I have for today. I just wanted to thank you for listening to the Voices of VR podcast. And if you enjoy the podcast, then please do tell your friends, spread the word, and become a donor to the Patreon. Just a few dollars a month makes a huge difference. So donate today at patreon.com slash Voices of VR. Thanks for listening.

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