#306: Jesse Schell on Game Design in VR

Jesse_SchellJesse Schell wrote the book “The Art of Game Design: A book of lenses,” and his company Schell Games produced I Expect You to Die. It’s one of the top-ranked VR games on Oculus Share, and it also won the Vision Inspire Award at Unity’s Vision Summit. Jesse says designing VR games in the 90s really informed a lot of what’s already in his game design book, and so the only additional design lens that he might add is the Lens of Presence. I caught up with Jesse at the Unity AR/VR Summit to hear more about the specific game design lenses that Schell Games used in the design of their three VR games including the escape room puzzler I Expect You to Die, room-scale 3D water pipes puzzler Water bears, and the comedy, choose-your-own-space adventure Orion Trail. I also talk to Jesse about storytelling in VR, maintaining presence, and predicting the future of VR.


Here’s Jesse’s 40 predictions from VR Intelligence about VR and AR in 2016, 2020 and 2025

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Rough Transcript

[00:00:05.412] Kent Bye: The Voices of VR Podcast.

[00:00:11.915] Jesse Schell: All right, hey, I'm Jesse Schell, the CEO of Schell Games. And geez, what aren't we doing in VR? We got about five VR projects going right now. Our biggest one is I Expect You to Die on the Oculus. But we also got Water Bears VR on the Vive, Orion Trail on the Gear, and then some undisclosed projects.

[00:00:28.959] Kent Bye: Great. So you actually wrote a whole book about game design. And I'm curious if you were to take a look at that book and update it for VR, what type of new lenses might you have?

[00:00:41.733] Jesse Schell: Well, it's an interesting question, the notion of updating Art of Game Design for VR, because for me, like, VR's not a new thing. I've been doing VR since 1995. A lot of the lessons are in the book. I learned making VR worlds for Disney Quest and places like that. So honestly, the book really is already infused with a lot of VR lessons. I guess the main thing that probably isn't addressed there is the thing that's truly unique about VR, the notion of presence, of truly feeling you're in the world. There is presently no lens of presence in the book. There's a lens of transparency, which kind of points at it, but that would be the biggest change, the notion of presence.

[00:01:19.045] Kent Bye: And so, in looking at I Expect You to Die, are there any specific lenses that you would say you're trying to explore there?

[00:01:26.848] Jesse Schell: Wow, really good question. Certainly Lens of the Puzzle because it is such a heavily puzzle-themed game. Certainly the Lens of Atmosphere because we realized early that One of the things we say again and again is that presence is more important than gameplay in these experiences, which is a hard thing for a game designer to get over. And creating an atmosphere and everything that goes with it, like the details of the art and the music and the timing and the pacing and the voice talent, all of that is really central to creating an experience. I would say those would be two biggest. Puzzles and presence are what that game is about.

[00:02:05.582] Kent Bye: Well, it sounds like you're really sensitive to breaking presence. And so, like for example, teleporting would be something that could potentially break the sense of presence in a singular place. But it may allow you to explore a world, but in terms of presence, I'm just curious in terms of the trade-offs of your design, what type of directions you've gone in to really maintain that presence.

[00:02:25.677] Jesse Schell: Oh yeah, like maintaining presence, right, like you say, it is the most important thing. And so we're always on the lookout for things that break presence. And so it's partly just like looking for that. And it's really hard because you play test with someone, you can't see when it's happened. You can kind of ask questions and start to get it, but you mainly have to experience it for yourself and it's such a matter of sort of looking within yourself to feel for that moment when like oh this doesn't feel right this doesn't feel real anymore this feels like a fake moment because it can come from anything something simple like using a tool or you drop an object and it doesn't fall the right way or the right sound effect isn't there There are just so many things that can just make a thing seem fake. It's just attention to every single little detail. It really is about being perfect.

[00:03:16.660] Kent Bye: Yeah, you know, at Sundance, there was an experience there from Funny or Die where, like, it's a scene where it's an interrogation and they, at some point, point a gun right at your face. And when they did that, I was like, had a moment where I was like, am I in danger? No. and as soon as I say no I am taken out of the experience because I realize that I'm not actually under threat and so in academia they call it the bat test where they do things like they threaten you in some way to see that they swing a bat at your head and if you duck you're present or you know you're on a ledge and then if you feel like your life is in danger then you have that sense of presence, but as soon as you cross that threshold and make it so that it breaks the plausibility illusion from Mel Slater's theory of both having the place illusion and plausibility illusion, if you break the plausibility, the coherence of the scene, then you're no longer believing that this world is real.

[00:04:08.418] Jesse Schell: Well, yeah, I mean, the notion of the gun being pointed at you and being so intense that you have to remind yourself that it's not real. That's a really interesting moment. I mean, it's the thing we always see happen with children watching a movie. They get overwhelmed by a scary or an intense movie and the parents are there saying, hey, it's not real. Just remember, it's not real. It's not real. So it's just a weird moment with like your subconscious was like, holy, you know, this is horrible. And and throws up the alarms, and your conscious mind has to step in and say, hey, buddy, be cool. It's not real. So this is just one more example of how fragile presence is. In a sense, certain things become too real, and your brain has to remind you that it's not real, and suddenly it's not real again. So there are just dangers to presence everywhere, including intense emotions, ironically, ends up being a danger.

[00:04:59.450] Kent Bye: So tell me about the story of Water Bears and what the gameplay is.

[00:05:04.167] Jesse Schell: Oh yeah, Water Bears is really interesting. So Water Bears has quite a history. It started actually as a student project that, let's see, the MacArthur Foundation funded a project at Carnegie Mellon that was all about systems thinking. And could we make a game that would help foster systems thinking? And so we teamed up with these folks from University of Indiana who were kind of world experts on systems thinking. And the students designed a game with them that was this sort of three-dimensional pipe building game about water flowing through pipes. and mixing colors and water, and it had all of the qualities that in a systems thinking curriculum that they try and teach. But the thing I couldn't help but notice is people were just absolutely engaged with this game. People were really hooked on the 3D puzzle solving. I played lots of 3D pipe building games before, and it's usually really hard to build in 3D, and this was so easy, and I loved it. But the game wasn't gonna go anywhere because the students were all international students, they couldn't do anything more with it, the university couldn't do anything more with it. And I said, guys, if nobody's doing anything, can I just buy this? And they said, yeah, sure. So we bought it from the students and turned it into water bears. We added these cute little water bear characters and made it from a PC game into an iPad game. And we released it on the iPad, and it won some great awards for being this sort of fun educational game. Then when we were looking at the Vive thinking, wow, what can we do here? We were talking about we could do this, we could do that. And we're like, you know, a version of water bears would be great because the ability to build these pipe structures with your hands and walk around and have close encounters with these cute little water bear characters, it just sounded like we could do that. And that wouldn't be too hard. And we wanted to get something out quick because there was a time when Valve was saying it was going to come out in October of 2015. And so we're like, let's get something that we feel good about, and we built it. And we're pretty excited about it. It's been testing really, really well. And we had to solve a lot of new interface problems in order to make it work. So you're using both hands to kind of build these pipes and arrange these color splitters and solve these really interesting problems on this cute little desert island. We showed it to Valve, and they were like, wow, there's not a lot of people doing games in the casual puzzle-solving space on our platform. You guys are going to own that space. It's sort of funny, because you think about the target audience for the Vive, at least the early adopters, it's mostly going to be males 18 to 35. And our argument is, look, everybody likes solving puzzles, and a lot of these males 18 to 35 are going to have families and children. So we think that we've got a shot with this thing. We're hoping to bring it to other platforms, but right now it really does require walking around a large area. And that was why we chose to do this on the Vive. So we're really eager to see the platform get out there and see what reactions we get.

[00:07:53.680] Kent Bye: How does that teach systems thinking?

[00:07:56.537] Jesse Schell: Yeah, so it's interesting. The game isn't designed so much to teach systems thinking on its own, but to be a platform by which teachers can address the various aspects of systems thinking about limited resource use and combining different elements and having to come up with alternate solutions. So there's a whole system in there where the different levels are all rated based on which elements of systems thinking they use. So really, the game was designed, we worked with this group called Glass Lab, which was all about getting games to classrooms, to come up with a curriculum that sort of marked which of the elements of systems thinking you were using, and we developed a whole protocol that teachers could use to have conversations with students about, hey, now that you've played this, let's talk about which systems thinking elements were you using. So it's interesting, because it works great in that context, but it's also just a super fun, super challenging puzzle game.

[00:08:48.050] Kent Bye: What are some of the lenses of Water Bears?

[00:08:50.912] Jesse Schell: Wow, really good question. Lenses of water bears. Definitely some of the interface lenses. I think definitely sort of the physical and virtual interface lenses because we had so much tricky interface design. Everything from, hey, how are you going to choose one of 40 levels in like VR? What's the right way to do that? And then questions like, the puzzles really needed you to kind of approach them from a certain angle. But we didn't know where in the room you were going to be standing. It would be really bad if we put the puzzle in the wall and you couldn't get to it. So we ended up having to develop this whole teleporter system that kind of secretly guides you to go and stand in certain places. So there's a lot of indirect control. So lens of indirect control in Water Bears is huge because we're kind of quietly guiding you all over the place. And another really important one is one of the lenses that's new for the second edition of the book is the lens of help. Who are you helping? In the original version of the game, you were just building pipes, and that was that. And as soon as we got it in, we're like, that's fine, but you need to be helping somebody. Who are you helping? And that was the challenge we put to the team, like figure out who you're helping. And the team said, well, who needs water? And someone on the team said, well, there's these weird little animals called water bears. They're a millimeter long, and they have the ability to completely dry out their bodies and go into suspended animation for 20 years. And when water comes back, then they kind of rehydrate. Why don't we make a game about them? And we're like, wow, that sounds really, really cool.

[00:10:17.241] Kent Bye: Yeah, there's the ones that can actually go into space, right?

[00:10:19.523] Jesse Schell: Yeah, they're amazing. They can survive in boiling water. They can be frozen solid. They can go into space. Because their bodies integrate silicon in a weird way that most living creatures don't. And so they have the ability to expel every molecule of water from their bodies and become a completely dry thing. And then they can just re-expand when they're ready. They're somewhat terrifying. They're going to outlive us all.

[00:10:43.670] Kent Bye: And so tell me a bit about Orion Shell. I know you're taking some inspiration from the Oregon Trail, I presume, and talk about how does that translate into VR.

[00:10:53.016] Jesse Schell: Yeah, so Orion Trail was another adapted game. This had started out as a Shell Games Jam Week project, which are these passion projects that people do once a year. And someone had the idea, what if we did a comedy space version of Oregon Trail called Orion Trail, and the prototype was really funny, and we all loved the prototype, so we put it up on Kickstarter, and boom, it got completely funded very quickly. And so we were thrilled with that, we put it out, and it's gotten a lot of good reception, just as a regular 2D game. And we started talking about the gear, and like, what are we going to do for the gear? Do we want to do anything for the gear? The gear's a little tricky, you can't use your hands. And someone said, I know, why don't we do Orion Trail for the gear? And we all laughed, because Orion Trail is like a pixelated 2D game. How in the world are you going to do that in 3D? And then someone said, you know, actually you could do it. You could make like a Starship bridge and you're sitting in the chair and then on the comm screen is the 2D game. And then we all laughed again because that's ridiculous. And then over the weekend somebody built it and we were trying it on just for fun and we're like, oh my God, this is actually incredibly cool. So we said, let's finish this. So we made all these fun 3D pixelated characters to kind of go on the bridge. And we just kind of took the 2D game and sort of wove it into this 3D environment. And it's sort of silly, but at the same time, it's really fun. I mean, personally, I really prefer playing it in the VR as opposed to playing it on the 2D screen. So that was how that one came in. And it let us get a toe in on the gear without having to make a giant investment.

[00:12:22.460] Kent Bye: And to revisit the lens question again, I'm curious if there's any specific lenses for Orion Trail.

[00:12:27.462] Jesse Schell: Yeah, right, that's a good question. There aren't any specific lenses of comedy. I think certainly the lens of emotion, kind of thinking about what emotions you have, because it's a rare game that really focuses on comedy as kind of a central aspect. I think that's definitely true. Definitely the lens of progress. A lot of our challenges with Orion Trail in general is it's a fairly limited game mechanic. It's kind of a choose-your-own-adventure going on these things. And getting the progress to feel right in that game was a big part of the challenge. So the lens of visible progress, I think, was really important. Even just silly things like getting the achievements right ended up making a difference on that. And then I think the biggest debate on Orion Trail, because it's a little bit of a love it or hate it game, because so much of it features a random number generator. You have these stats, you make a decision about what to do, and then right in front of you it sort of rolls the dice and you get to see how it came out. There's a lens that's all about skill versus chance, and like, are they balanced right? And that was a huge debate for us about does it need to lean more towards skill. And what we found is this is one of these things where some people like they love the crazy randomness of it. I'm one of those people. I love that aspect of it. Other people just hate that. And so that's been a little bit one of the things that's challenging. It's not to everybody's taste, but for people who like that kind of thing, it's super fun.

[00:13:49.647] Kent Bye: Yeah, and because you've written a whole book about game design, and if you take a step back and look at virtual reality, gaming is obviously going to be one of the first applications, but it's going to transcend and go into education and basically into all dimensions of society. And so, I guess when you look at gaming, why is gaming important?

[00:14:07.997] Jesse Schell: So, gaming is important for a number of reasons. First of all, gaming is always there first. Gaming is there first with almost every technology, because gaming is a safe place that a technology doesn't have to be perfect. And if you look going back, for example, you look at cell phones. Cell phones wouldn't be where they are if it wasn't for the Game Boy. The Game Boy proved that people could have a portable device with a screen and what size it needed to be and what the interfaces needed to be. The stuff that happened there really helped influence everything that came later with other PDAs and then phones. Or similarly, look at all the stuff that's happening now with voice recognition. People are acting like voice recognition is brand new. Dial back the clock and say, hey, you Pikachu, right, on the GameCube. And it didn't work very well, but that's OK because Pikachu is kind of ill-behaved. So gaming is going to prove out what works and doesn't work right with VR. So that's going to be one of its most important elements. But also just games are important for a lot of reasons. They're important for education. They're important as a kind of emotional experience. And so for those reasons gaming is going to be central to it because in the long run Gaming is the medium that subsumes all the other mediums. You can put everything else into a game, but you can't put a game into a song at a concert. But I can put a song from a concert into a game. And VR is kind of the same way. VR is this interactive medium that kind of wants to subsume everything. And so there's going to be a lot of overlap there. I continue to believe that even 10, 20 years from now, once VR is really established, the bulk of revenue is going to be coming from gaming.

[00:15:50.222] Kent Bye: Well, it's interesting. I think, I would say stories are a huge part as well. And going to Sundance and seeing all the experiences there, I think one of the things that I came away with is that the more interactivity you have from what the affordances of this immersive technology provides is that you have interactivity. And so, you know, like the Martian experience is trying to tell a story of giving you an experience of what it's like to be a character in that film, but yet it ends up being kind of a series of mini-games. There's this question of the role of narrative and storytelling and this new medium where it's going to be kind of like this blend between gaming and storytelling, but yet in the end I think we're creatures that really crave narrative and story.

[00:16:31.866] Jesse Schell: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, we love story. Story is central to how we communicate, to how we understand the world. And all of the work in VR recently has really had me thinking more and more about the nature of visual storytelling. Because when you think about visual storytelling, it's actually very peculiar. This notion that I can keep cutting the camera all over the place, and our brains are fine with that. And for a long time, I didn't really understand that. Like, how is that intuitive to us? It seems so unnatural. But what I've come to believe is that the brain has a special story-receiving mode that where it comes from is it comes from language. Someone's going to tell you a story just verbally, which is a complicated idea. I'm going to give you a string of words, and you're going to turn that into a series of pictures and cause and effect and, like, real characters. And you're going to see it and understand it and think about it. And to be able to do that, you need to kind of go into this mode. And it's not an interactive mode. I mean, it's interactive in that you're thinking about it, but this is about someone else telling the story to you. And when someone's telling you the story verbally, they're cutting the camera all over the place. They're giving close-ups about how somebody felt and then we're looking at the scene from above and that just all happens verbally. So what I think is really happening in traditional filmmaking is filmmaking is replicating verbal storytelling but by actually kind of taking the camera there. And then what I really believe is that The business of choosing where to look and what to think about gets turned off by storytelling. That's what it does. Storytelling turns that off. As soon as you put me in VR, you've got a problem because you just turn that back on. And now that that's back on, it's really hard for me to be in that receptive storytelling mode. So this now puts the onus on the creator to have such powerful indirect control that you can predict more or less where I'm going to look in a lot of cases if you want to have this be about telling me a preordained linear story. The thing I think that is going to end up being the main device that allows this to work is what I call the divine comedy concept, right? In the divine comedy, Dante goes into hell and other places, but he doesn't go alone. He meets Virgil, and Virgil is certainly an ancient storyteller, and Virgil leads him through these places. And Virgil never leaves his side. Virgil's with him every step of the way. And that makes for great storytelling for Dante, because that way the two of them can talk about what they see. And there's things Dante doesn't understand, but Virgil does, and there's things Dante understands. It just makes for really good storytelling. We've seen this with a few films. In a normal film, it's very unusual to kind of have an on-screen character kind of looking at you and talking to you. We generally call that breaking the fourth wall. But there have been films where it's been done. I think in VR that's going to become incredibly normal, that you're going to have a host with you who's talking to you and guiding you through this world. Because if you don't have that, you get a very strange experience, like Henry. I was very excited to see Henry, this kind of VR movie experience, and sort of see what they did. And in a lot of ways, I was really disappointed. I mean, it's beautiful, and the animation is great, but from a storytelling point of view, it felt fundamentally broken. Here I am in this room, sitting here at this table, and there's Henry, and he's there, and, oh, I'm so sad. No one came to my birthday party. And I'm like, you damn little son of a bitch. I'm right here. I'm right here, and you're ignoring me. bastard. And it just made me hate the guy. And I'm like, OK, it's not him, but someone didn't get how this works. Right. I felt so ignored. I felt like, don't you understand that I'm here? Now, of course, I was watching that on a screen. I wouldn't feel that way. But that's what this medium does. It makes you feel like you're really there. And if you're not acknowledged, it breaks down. And so I think for storytellers to make this work, they're going to have to acknowledge and include your presence. And it's a hard thing to do, but it can be done.

[00:20:47.705] Kent Bye: Yeah, I definitely had that experience as well. And there was a moment when Henry actually looks you in the eye, and you have a moment of eye contact, and that was sort of like the most visceral moment of actually feeling a little bit connected and responsive. You know, Sacha Unfeld has actually written a whole blog post where there was actually a huge internal debate with Oculus Story Studio with that exact same point, which is that there is a fundamental design flaw about the story about Henry being alone, but yet there you are being present, but yet you're a ghost, and you know, they call it the Patrick Swayze effect and you know, I would say that it also includes the plausibility illusion which is are you in a world that feels coherent and makes sense and that you're an Participant that has agency either local or global agency within that environment and yet in that environment your ghost and you have no agency at all But yet you want to actually kind of feel present and so, you know I went to Sundance and saw all the experiences and I saw this spectrum between completely passive storytelling with 360 videos and sometimes your character and sometimes you're not addressed and I all the way up to kind of more interactive experiences. And one thing that Eric Darnell said is that there's a trade-off between empathy and interactivity. So, for example, some of the experiences where you go to a Syrian refugee camp or you are looking at the Ebola crisis and you have no character, you're a ghost, That actually may actually open you up to that story that's being told and be more receptive and empathize with that character. Whereas if it was a game and you had to interact with a crying boy, then now there becomes an objective and it becomes more about your experience rather than the other person's experience.

[00:22:18.161] Jesse Schell: Yeah, I mean, I think it's this question of people start to say, oh, well, you're a ghost. Well, they just say that because you can't touch anything and no one can see you. But really, if no one says anything about who you are, if the experience doesn't give you any indication of who you're supposed to be, then you're you. You're just you in this place. And that's probably why documentaries are so great, because now I've actually been to this place. But when you talk about fiction, like, well, what am I doing here, right? Like, why would I be here in this place? And if I'm supposed to be somebody else, well, then you're going to have to, you know, and this is the problem we've always had with interactive Story games is like am I pretending to be someone else and how does this really work? And where does empathy end and where does agency begin? They paint a nice picture of it in the movie her in that scene where he plays video games with that weird little foul-mouthed child and People are going to start to realize that avatars aren't what we think they are. We think of them as this person that we pretend to be or this person that we control. And I think we're going to move into this situation where it's acknowledged that myself and the avatar are kind of a team that are kind of teaming up to do something. We see it actually right now. We see it in the Adventure Time game on the Gear. Right? The Turbo Button did. That game is incredible. For me, I think that's the best game on the gear. Those guys are just, they just did everything right. And part of what they did is completely redefine the Avatar relationship. Right? You're controlling Finn, but you're not Finn. You're you. Finn and Jake talk to you. You're acknowledged. Even though you're a floating camera, they acknowledge you as a character who's there. But at the same time, you control Jake. And that doesn't seem weird at all because the idea being that, like, the two of us are a team. And sometimes, two teammates kind of think as one. And other times, two teammates have a conversation with each other. And a lot of people don't like to accept that, but I think more and more we're going to start to see that notion come out. We're going to see this sort of changing of the relationship between first person and third person.

[00:24:30.245] Kent Bye: So you've been looking at the future. You're part of a group that goes through these exercises of making predictions about the future and telling the story. And as humans, we're story-making machines about who we are, why we're here, what we're doing. But VR also has its own story about its history from the 60s to today. But also, moving into the future, a lot of people at this point, we kind of see it as this inflection point. But yet, making predictions of the future at this point, a lot of people say, oh, you can't make predictions because you're just going to be wrong. Nobody really has any idea, but for you, you think that we actually can, or you're willing to go out on the edge and actually make some predictions. So for you, what are some of the biggest predictions that you have a strong intuition about?

[00:25:11.036] Jesse Schell: Yeah, I mean, yeah, anybody can make predictions. Most people are just afraid to be wrong. But the truth is, the more often you make predictions, the better you get at it, because you get feedback about whether they were right or wrong. So some of the things I feel pretty strongly about One of them is the notion of how filmed VR will be important. And I think, I really do believe, yeah, sure, documentaries are cool, and kind of Hollywood-type stories, those are fine and exciting. The reason humanity is going to care is it's going to be for home movies. It's one thing to be able to look at a picture of your daughter's first steps, and it's a whole nother thing to be able to sit down on the carpet with her again. The importance of VR home movies, I don't think we're going to be able to understate that. It's going to be the most powerful, most nostalgic, most personal medium that we have. I mean, those are going to be treasured more than family photos. ever were. So I think that's going to sort of sneak up on people and surprise them at how important it is. Certainly the notion of social VR, people talk about VR as an anti-social medium when really it's going to be the most social medium because it'll be the only medium where you can really make eye contact, the only medium where you can actually do a high-five with somebody like in the world. You'll be able to see gesture and all of that facial expression is going to be very soon. So, most of the money that's going to be made in VR is going to be off of these social experiences, and there's going to be intimacy and a power that's going to really surprise people. And then one of my big ones I'm going to talk a bit about tomorrow is that, this is a little farther out there, I would say, we're going to start to see this around 2025, is touch is going to start to be an important part of VR. And the way I think that'll work is there'll be a robot who's near you, who is bringing out pieces and parts of the world, since it knows exactly where your hands are, exactly where you're looking, exactly what the virtual world is, and it'll be moving physical objects in place. So you will not only be able to just look at this world, but you'll be able to reach out and touch it and pick up objects. from it. We're not that far away from being able to do that and there's going to be huge power in that. And so I would say that the gaming experience is going to get richer and deeper and stranger like in the next 10 years.

[00:27:38.156] Kent Bye: And finally, what do you see is kind of the ultimate potential of virtual reality and what it might be able to enable?

[00:27:45.677] Jesse Schell: Oh man, I don't know if, I mean, I don't, it's sort of like what's the ultimate potential of electricity? You can use it for so many things. I think probably the most important part about it is it's going to do a lot to unite us just as a culture and a species, similar to the way television has and the way the internet has, that we're able to sort of see things and parts of the world and peoples of the world and situations that we weren't able really to see before. But it's one thing to see them through a window and it's another thing to be there and feel those situations. And so I really do think probably the most important and powerful aspect of VR is the way it will be a gateway to empathy for people in situations that you wouldn't have had empathy with any other way.

[00:28:39.540] Kent Bye: Is there anything else that's left unsaid that you'd like to say?

[00:28:42.351] Jesse Schell: Geez, man, we covered an awful lot. I mean, I think the hardest, for me, the most pressing questions are, oh my God, is this going to make any money, right? Because we're investing a whole bunch in this. And is it going to make money? And how is it going to make money? That's some of the stuff that's sort of looming around. Is it going to look like? Is it going to turn into free-to-play, just like everything else has? Or is it going to be different? All of that is stuff I guess we're just going to have to wait and see on. The most important thing for me is I'm just super excited about everything that's going to happen. You know, you can try your best to predict it, but so much interesting, new, crazy stuff is going to happen once this all gets unleashed on the world.

[00:29:19.559] Kent Bye: Great. Well, thank you so much.

[00:29:20.960] Jesse Schell: Good talking to you.

[00:29:22.561] Kent Bye: And thank you for listening. If you'd like to support the Voices of VR podcast, then please consider becoming a patron at patreon.com slash voices of VR.

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