Two of my favorite experiences at Venice Immersive this year were from Taiwan, All That Remains and The Man Who Couldn’t Leave, which took the top jure prize this year. Red Tail was another animated piece from Taiwan that was selected for competition. Taiwan has consistently had a really strong showing of immersive stories at Venice Immersive over the past number of years, which is somewhat surprising given that the country only has 27 million residents. I sat down with Grace Lee, the Director of Content & Culture Technology Department, Taiwan Creative Content Agency, and Sebox Hong of the Kaohsiung Film Festival in order to unpack more of what’s happening within the Taiwanese Immersive Storytelling community and how the government is encouraging citizens to share their stories and cultural identity through the latest immersive technologies.
This is a listener-supported podcast through the Voices of VR Patreon.
[00:00:05.452] Kent Bye: The Voices of VR podcast. Hello, my name is Kent Bye and welcome to the Voices of VR podcast. It's a podcast that's looking at the structures and forms of immersive storytelling and the future of spatial computing. You can support me on Patreon at patreon.com slash Voices of VR. So in today's episode, I do a little bit of a deep dive of what's happening within the XR scene within Taiwan. At the Venice Immersive, there's the film festival, but there's this whole other section called the Venice Production Bridge, where they bring in lots of different countries, have these different creative agencies and funders to be able to support the structures and forms of immersive storytelling. You have a lot of opportunities for immersive artists to pitch some of their different projects and do these co-productions. but also just help promote what is happening within the context of the region. And so there's actually a little booth off to the side for both the Taiwan Creative Content Agency as well as the Kaohsiung Film Festival. And just generally, the scene within Taiwan has been cultivating a lot of these immersive creators and 360 video directors and really strong selection. There's three different pieces that were from Taiwan in the competition there. So like 10% of all the different selection of brightness immersive is coming from Taiwan and so I wanted to get a bit of a Context as to like what's happening to really you know have this country that's like 27 million people and they're really making some amazing work this year actually the winner the man who couldn't leave was actually from Taiwan and so I talked to Grace Lee, she's the director of the content and culture technology department of the Taiwan Creative Content Agency, as well as C. Box Hong, who's at the Kaohsiung Film Festival and Kaohsiung Film Lab. And yeah, just talking a little bit about what they're doing in their organizations and how the government is supporting the arts and culture and supporting the technology and the fusion of those two things. And yeah, just to get a sense of what's happening in Taiwan. So that's what we're covering on today's episode of the Voices of VR podcast. So this interview with Grace and Seabox happened on Saturday, September 3rd, 2022 at the Venice Immersive in Venice, Italy. So with that, let's go ahead and dive right in.
[00:02:17.776] Grace Lee: I'm Grace Lee. I'm from Taiwan. And I, right now I work in TAICA, the Taiwan Creative Content Agency as a department director of cultural technology.
[00:02:29.972] Sebox Hong: Hi, I'm Sebak, I'm also from Taiwan, working in Kaohsiung VR Film Lab, which was funded by Kaohsiung Film Archive, and I'm the project leader of Kaohsiung VR Film Lab.
[00:02:38.545] Kent Bye: Awesome, and maybe each of you could give a bit more context to your backgrounds and your journey into this space.
[00:02:45.560] Grace Lee: Okay, me personally come from film backgrounds. I'm a film producer before I was working in Kaohsiung Film Archive too. So that's where I jumped into the VR world. So after four years in Kaohsiung and right now I'm working at TAICA organization supporting all kinds of creative contents and especially for the creative content using technology side. Yes.
[00:03:11.063] Sebox Hong: Yeah, so, right, just as Grace mentioned, she's actually my ex-boss. So we actually did a really quiet journey back from 2017 when Kaohsiung Film Archive started this VR Film Lab project into four different kinds of categories, the VR original investment, and also the Kaohsiung Film Festival with the XR Dreamland, which is the XR section of the film festival. And also we do have a talent workshop and we have an LBE theater back in Kaohsiung. And I also come from the film background. I used to shoot short films and also commercial films and music video. And it was a really big pleasure when Grace asked me to join her team when she was the project leader of Kaohsiung VR Film Lab. So I stepped into the VR just like that, yeah.
[00:03:56.308] Kent Bye: So there's a lot of amazing stuff that's happening in Taiwan as for a country that is maybe over punching its weight in terms of the amount of projects that have been at the festivals here at like the Venice Film Festival over the last number of years of a country that's around 27 million people. There's a lot of innovation that's happening in the realm of immersive storytelling and 360 video. What's happening in Taiwan that's cultivating the scene to be so involved in the cutting edge of the future of immersive storytelling?
[00:04:25.491] Sebox Hong: of our goal first. So back in 2017, when Grace and other colleagues started the VR Film Lab project, we tried to invite future film directors to step into the VR experiences. So we think of relying on their expertise in making future films into VR experiences because they sense the potential of VR immersive experiences at that time. So at first, we started to figure out there's a lot of talents, like individual talents, that they would like to make their creativity into the immersive experiences, especially in VR experiences. So we still have the commission for them, and what we do most is to connect with the right companies, maybe animators and engineers from game engines, or to match them with their creators to see how do they put this kind of stories into VR experiences. So we have so luckily been nominated three times in a row In Venice VR main competition, we've made a home in the mist, and this year we have Rattel. All the different kinds of genre, different kinds of stories itself, but it all goes back to what we think of VR experiences as a Taiwanese perspective. And I think Taika has a really good potential on promoting them in the future and also cultivating them. So I'll let Grace to...
[00:05:48.353] Grace Lee: I think as Saber just mentioned, I think the Venice Festival is also one of the key points to relate to Taiwan's XR industry as well. Since the very beginning, almost at the same time, since Venice created their section for VR in 2017, and at the same year Gaosheng created VR section 2 and also lots of the creators starting at that point and realized this media is a very new tool that can make them tell the story. So in the past few years everyone tried to knowing more about this media. And we realized it's not only the filmmakers telling the new story, it's a new field that all kinds of different artists can go together, like digital arts, performance, everything. And so also, I think in Taiwan, we are in a very unique situation because we have all kinds of very diverse elements to develop, like XR systems that we have created. We have hardware companies, we have manufacturing companies, they do the chairs that you can use in for XR. And in the past two years, lots of immersive menus opening in Taiwan. And somehow I think it reflects a new trend in Taiwan. The transition is from the peer creation into the industry-wise. People are trying to make more commercial things. And like private company, they're willing to open those kind of venue, also shows the wider interest for audience, also the industry side. It's very exciting moment.
[00:07:30.263] Kent Bye: Yeah, with HTC being based in Taiwan, you have their collaboration with Valve to come up with the HTC Vive and then the follow-on other headsets that they've been doing. But there's also a lot of other hardware companies that are there in terms of, like, maybe even the 360 video cameras that are being produced there. So you're, I guess, on the bleeding edge of having the latest cutting-edge technology that allows a different level of quality and fidelity, I think. pushing forward the technology whereas other countries and communities haven't been adopting it as much and so maybe you could speak about some of those specific hardware companies that are there in Taiwan that are helping to cultivate this ecosystem
[00:08:06.922] Sebox Hong: Right. Regarding to this, yeah, we actually have HTC in Taiwan and also the region, Zhiwei. Bozheng. Yeah, the Bozheng in Kaohsiung. They have made a lot of efforts into making new equipments, including headsets, including the moving chairs, and also the projectors by Optoma, by HP. There are a lot of great advance in Taiwan. putting into the investment of R&D department. So we always have the advantage to use the latest technology to show out their digital arts. But I think what we got in the most advantage thing is that I think Taiwanese creators are kind of like really good at storytelling. Like back in 80s or 90s, there's a Taiwanese cinema era. when Edward Yang and Hou Hsiao-hsien, these kind of directors, they try to tell the story of what exactly is happening in Taiwan. And I think a lot of creators right now were so influenced by those directors back in Taiwanese cinema era. You know, they were born and raised that way, so they have the feeling of putting this kind of sense into the new territory, which is the XR industry. So I think what we got is, besides from technology, I think the storytelling part is what we are really good at. And also we look forward to see more and more creators, after we do such a networking for them, I think they can come up with new ways of telling story in VR or in XR generally.
[00:09:41.333] Grace Lee: I think the most challenging part, as Seva just mentioned, is that those tech companies and creators, they really come from different backgrounds. So even those tech companies in Taiwan, right now they somehow realize, also because of the metaverse everyone is discussing right now, so somehow they realize this multimedia is new. new chance for them but it's still very challenging to make them work together but it's not only about like we have two good tech company we also have some of the very good studio production studio like Funic. I always love to use this case as an example because when Funic they're doing projects they develop their own camera. But if they are just showing their camera, no one will care about their camera. So they try to work with artists and artists use their technique to tell the story. But somehow those stories make a wider influence and bigger influence. It's not about saying how much technique we have. So I think in the end of the day, the content is really the key and creating the storytelling is somehow really the key to move people, make a wider influence.
[00:10:51.835] Sebox Hong: Yeah, I think at this point I can address that as I think Taiwanese creators are really good at using tools like we have so a variety of tool using like different kinds of tools including VR headsets, MR headsets like HoloLens or AR headsets like Magic Lips and they know What those creators did is basically to dig into the tool itself and try to put their creativity into the tool and make the tool be seen in the most effective way. Yeah, that is what I think the Taiwanese creators are really good at.
[00:11:29.098] Grace Lee: I think, as Seba just mentioned, because they know how to use technology, I think, on the other hand, festivals and those platform plays are very, very important roles. Because when those artists are trying to do VR, but they haven't tried anything yet. But like the festival for Venice and also Kaohsiung, they showcase them as much as possible, the new form of the arts, the new things. And like this year, the Venice, that's of Taiwan is coming. And after they see the content, they will discuss how ladies technology, how the story is. So I think right now is not only like production is very important. It's also seeing things, experiencing is also very important side. Yeah.
[00:12:13.476] Kent Bye: Yeah, a couple of my favorite experiences here are the All That Remains and The Man Who Could Not Leave which are both also Taiwanese productions in the sense that the look and feel of those projects also have a different quality of the 360 video that I don't see from other projects in terms of like just the depth of field and the clarity. So I could tell that there's both the technology that's different but also just the way that it's crafted and put together to create some really innovations in terms of the modes of storytelling. There's a bit of a finding the language of immersive storytelling that I think there's a lot of creativity and innovations that are happening in these projects that are coming from Taiwan.
[00:12:50.665] Sebox Hong: Yeah, and also, you know, as Kaohsiung VR Film Lab, we do commission those local creators on making different kinds of VR experiences. So what we stand is that we're not just giving them the money. We also help them to connect with the right company. For example, if you are going to shoot live-action movies, we will introduce maybe Phoenix or other really great talents in Taiwan to see like what kinds of needs do you have and when you match with the right person that means that you can work with the right person and to find out all the solutions on how to elaborate your creativity into that medium. So, as Kaohsiung VR Film Lab, besides the Film Festival, we routinely give a lot of suggestions to the creators, including we will be holding VR talent workshops. We invite international talents to come to Kaohsiung to have lectures for those alumni, and in the future, if we have the budget, we are able to send them. For example, if I invite someone from Latin America, a really good animation company, to do the lecture for the alumni, then he or she could pick one of the groups that he thinks that has the potential to help the company to do one project. then we will try to cover the expenses of the flights and also the accommodation and send the creators to that particular country to learn with them. It's just like an apprenticeship and also mentorship and it's a combination of residency and workshop. So once they learn something from that company or that particular mentor, when they come back to Taiwan they can share their knowledges, and it's a good benefit for them to invest into their own projects. So it will be a mutual benefit for the company abroad. They have the help, they have the assistance from our alumni, and for the alumni, they have the knowledge, enough knowledge to start their own projects. And that is, as Grace just mentioned, I think the key point is always the content itself. So what do we maintain the quality, the high quality of the content is to try to focus on the talent cultivation and also the networking between international and domestic, in Taiwan, domestic talents. That is how do we form the community.
[00:15:09.097] Kent Bye: Yeah, and I think the funding aspect is such a crucial part from not only the creators, but also, you know, your organizations yourselves. So maybe we'll start with how is each of your organizations funded? Is it funded by the government or is there private investment or how is the money coming into your organizations?
[00:15:25.720] Grace Lee: I think we are the same. Both organizations are supporting right now, especially for immersive content, especially from government side. So I think that's also one thing very interesting in Taiwan is somehow the technology and culture, the combination of these two fields and the new ways of the artists can go. It's also a very international level decision, so we really put a lot of effort to try to foster in these new kind of things. And I think we all understand right now we are in a transition time into an old world to a new world, but no one knows what will be happening in the future, but we are really trying to foster as many talents as possible that the future will need. And that's something very, I think it's in Taiwan's landscape. Everyone is have this kind of mindset. Yes.
[00:16:24.143] Sebox Hong: And regarding to this, like I just mentioned, we don't just give out the funds. So there's a lot of companies and corporates in Taiwan, they are facing the transformation of the industry. For example, if they are doing the manufacturing industry, they have something to do with extra embodiments like moving chairs, then we can show them some example in the international market to see how could they adopt this kind of techniques. And by using governmental funding, we have the more freedoms to connect with the local companies to the international companies to see what chemistry is between them. and those kind of match could really make up something really new and turns out to be not just the manufacturing but also in the perspective of culture you could spread out all the Taiwanese stories or Taiwanese perspective through just like Grace mentioned that the tool is not the most important thing but what's within the tool is rather important So by using this kind of strategy, I may use that more international audiences could understand a little bit more on the culture aspects of Taiwan, but also could appreciate those really stunning visual or the experiences made within this kind of tools. So it's like a win-win situation, both with equipment itself, but also the cultural contents.
[00:17:52.410] Kent Bye: Yeah, living in the United States, there's not as much support from the government into the arts and culture. And so what is it about the culture that the Taiwanese government finds so important as to be able to fund it and to be able to be on the bleeding edge of not only the immersive technologies, but also the future of immersive storytelling to be able to share Taiwanese stories?
[00:18:13.028] Sebox Hong: Well, it's about, I think it's a little bit about like when we're talking about future contents, it's just so vague. Like you don't really know what exactly is future content. But I think Taiwanese creators has the guts to try and to explore this territory to see like what exactly, we always like to push things to the boundaries or over the boundaries. So that is the spirit of Taiwanese creators. They always try to get over the lines, try to make things in an extreme way. So at that point, we think that when you have really good creativity, if we can help as a funding, like a semi, because Kaohsiung VR Film Festival is like a semi-governmental institution. We took the grants from city governments and also central governments, but they gave us the freedom of using that. So on developing what is XR or immersive experiences, this kind of system that we have a really big freedom because they don't really understand. I mean, the government don't really understand what exactly is that about. But like relying on we going to international events, for example, like Venice or Tobacco, South by Southwest, and there's this kind of really big international events, we can introduce a lot of new techniques and also new ways of telling story, narratives way to tell story back to Taiwan. So I think that is a mission of both of us to connect both in a cultural way but also the hardware way, yeah.
[00:19:48.275] Grace Lee: Can you just mention the differences between the US and Taiwan? It's actually really something we are also discussing because two systems are really different. In Taiwan, I think for the government, especially from the cultural industry, it's kind of a long history. will support the arts but somehow we do discussing like should we put so much into this field or we should go like the more fair like the freedom market like US yeah but I think for future companies especially because Taiwan from the central government side is not only about like a creative part, it's also the decision from the economic and also the industrial economic side. Because Taiwan as maybe everyone knows is very famous for the IT industry and also we call ourselves as a technology island. So, in a way, we see the new trends and new chance for Taiwan to use this advantage and combine the cultural things, make all the different industries become a new area. Maybe Taiwan will go further and have more advantage on the other world. I think that's why the central government has decided to put into These two fell in combination as a very mission since the 2017 and in the future years will still be a very main mission.
[00:21:19.112] Sebox Hong: We call it soft strength, soft power that the cultural impacts toward different kinds of audiences could really achieve something just using the technology itself.
[00:21:32.289] Kent Bye: Talking to the creators of both The Man Who Could Not Leave and All That Remains and getting some of the different themes of how in the past there's been repression over expression or identity or the political oppression and that with the colonized forces that you get a sense of the Taiwanese identity being suppressed. and that there's a bit of a need to have the opportunity to really express what does it mean to be Taiwanese. And so I guess in that context, I'd love to hear any reflections that you can share with this current tensions that you have with the colonial enforces of China. I'm not sure if you're at liberty to even speak about it, but that's a way to join this subject.
[00:22:11.482] Sebox Hong: Well, I think in some certain points, that is why we try so hard to promote in cultural content. Because when we could put more resources into making cultural contents, that means that more and more people could get to know what exactly is happening in Taiwan. like not in a documentary way, but get to know like how do Taiwanese creators tell the story. And then if it interests them, then they will try to dig out what exactly is like in Taiwan. For example, in Taiwan, we have so many different kinds of scenery. We have really tall mountains, J Mountains, the tallest mountain in Taiwan. We have quite a beautiful beach in the east coast of Taiwan and these kind of things are the it's hard to describe if you are not there but with VR or immersive experiences it's rather easy it's an easier way to show them how exactly it looks like in Taiwan And also I think that we have a really good level of freedom to talk about everything that we want. So creators in Taiwan, they have the ability to express their thoughts on the governments. No matter how do they think of the governments, they can put it into the contents. I think that is the biggest differences between China and Taiwan. And it's a tricky question about, you know, the relationship between, you know, because we are kind of like, We really face, encounter the pressures from China, even if in Venice we have to show our original as Taipei instead of Taiwan. But I think that that is a rather political issue, but I think everything's political. And with all the cultural contents we send out, to show the world that Taiwan has the power to do all these wonderful pieces. And gradually people will get to know Taiwan. Where is Taiwan? What is Taiwan all about? So I think that the future contents give us an opportunity and a brand new opportunity to introduce Taiwan to the world in a really different way. Yeah.
[00:24:24.187] Grace Lee: Yes, I totally agree. I think this year the content in competition and also the projects in markets also reflect the diversity of the culture in Taiwan. Like Siva just mentioned, the society is really free and we are very open to discuss anything. That's why also our content and culture, like the content side, those creators have so many different ways to tell their stories. Last year we had another film, In the Mist, in a competition. It's also a very good example because that's very powerful and strong projects. But maybe some countries were not allowed to do that. But like anything in Taiwan is really like if you have your voice to say, it's very open to it. Yeah.
[00:25:19.263] Kent Bye: Yeah, even at that level, then the distribution platforms refuse to distribute it, so you have other aspects of the censorship in that level. So I have an unpublished interview that I hope to get out here soon to kind of unpack that more. But just to kind of wrap things up here, I'm curious what each of you think the ultimate potential of virtual reality and immersive storytelling might be, and when it might be able to enable.
[00:25:42.317] Sebox Hong: I mean, the possibility of the immersive experiences? Wow, it's a general, it's a really big question. Right, so for this, for me, I think that, okay, so I was working with Kaohsiung Film Festival back in 2018-19, but just as a hospitality manager. And when Grace met me, and we talked about a lot of, when I saw the, I remember it's Tree Hugger by Marshmello Lizard Fist, and I suddenly feel really, the feeling that I'd never been before, that I, I could see something that is within the big trees that is so impossible back in any kind of medium. So I started thinking about, as virtual reality is a medium that we haven't known everything yet, that means we have so many possibilities in that. For example, take Venice competition as an example, we see a lot of hand gesture experiences coming up this year, and we know that all the creators involved with the technology, and even when they are trying to discover the boundary, they could push those maybe meta or HTC to put more efforts onto making new headsets. So for me, the possibility of immersive experiences in the future is that when the gear, the equipment is popularized, like everyone has a smartphone on their right now, right? So when people can get really close to the equipment, then we can maybe achieve another level just like Ready Player One, like everyone is inside of the metaverse. But still somehow I don't see that is a necessary part to do with the equipment. something to do with the content itself is rather important is because that there's something to do with your life, not just the virtual reality, but with your real life. That's the things the audiences wants. So if it can connect with your own life, personal life, that would be a really strong connection to the audiences itself. And I think that is when the creators could really, really connect to the audiences and also by different approaches including VR, AR, MR or really big massive projections or even we do have some like immersive theater in the future that I think that is all the different kinds of media that the creators can convey the idea. So I think for me the future of the immersive experiences is still stick around with creativity and also the story we want to tell. in the future. So I think there will be a lot of alternatives and a lot of involvement in the future, but somehow I think the content itself is the most important thing.
[00:28:32.738] Grace Lee: Yes, I think for me it's from the very beginning when I tried VR. It's really powerful media. I feel like one of the most, some of the projects I really influenced by them like Angelica and Notes of Blindness. Those contents from filmmakers, you notice that your world is not like a 2D world. You have a 3D, your whole space can allow you to do everything. I think that's the very exciting part for the artist because right now we have the more freedom to express ourselves. So I think it's also very good timing for artists that we used to only use that seeing or hearing thing but right now we are more touching a more sensation part in our body. I think somehow it's like a human we try to explore more how we can knowing of or something we don't know in the universe. So it's really exciting part for that. And also, yeah, I think we are in the transition timing from like 2D to 3D, like all the thing will be happening in three dimension part, like everything for VR or like the immersive space is somehow is the area or timing that we are going through that. part and although the things is very challenging right now is that we all know doing VR or anything because it's very difficult but it's somehow is really most exciting parts for artists and audience I would say.
[00:30:08.360] Sebox Hong: And also I want to add up, the things I want to add up is that I think there will be more hybrid things in the future. For example, virtual reality plus theater or MMR plus different kinds of maybe the audio system that is really in a high quality. So I don't think immersive experiences will replace the original way of telling story in movie or cinema, but it gives the opportunity of the alternative way. to tell a story, and that is using the speciality of immersive experiences, how to not just that the audiences watch what is going on, but also to be in the experiences. Yeah, so I think there might be more and more hybrid things coming up, and I really look forward to that.
[00:30:55.828] Kent Bye: Yeah. Anything else that's left unsaid that you'd like to say?
[00:30:59.913] Sebox Hong: Kaohsiung Film Festival will happen in mid-October from 14 to 30. If you have the chance to visit Taiwan, you have the time or have the budget to come to Taiwan. We have over 35 experiences this year and a lot of them are from local-made contents and there's something that we would like to show as more audience as we like and also TCCF.
[00:31:23.217] Grace Lee: Yes, we also have another festival in November. It's TCCF, organized by TAIKA. It's a marketplace, including all kinds of cultural content, like films, television, and also future content. So, yeah, we welcome everyone to check out. And also, I would like to add something. In Taiwan, we are very... more than welcome to do the co-production. So, everyone, if you have projects or anything you would like to cooperate with Taiwan, welcome to contact TAIKA and also Kaohsiung. Thank you.
[00:31:53.901] Kent Bye: Awesome. Well, lots of exciting stuff that's happening in Taiwan and glad to kind of unpack a little bit more of the story of what's happening there to be able to bring all these great projects here each and every year. So thanks again for taking the time to help explain what's happening in Taiwan.
[00:32:05.957] Sebox Hong: Thank you. Alright, so it's been a pleasure. The journey was really... It's hard, it's hard. But we are trying our best to let the creators know that there's always another way or the new way to do their creation. And I think if we stay humble and we can get connected with all the international talents, that will make more and more possibilities in the future regarding to the international co-production or just the sharing of the knowledges and the information because if you want people to get into the industry that it means that we have to pay really really good efforts digging into the research and the development. So if there are more and more people stepping into the XR industry that means that they can find out a solution quicker than before. So that is what we expected.
[00:33:01.838] Grace Lee: Thank you. It's just a pleasure to be talking with you because I hear your podcast a lot. It's true. Yeah, and also we are just very happy to be back in Venice because in the past two years everyone is kind of sad because we are locked in our own country. So it's very happy that we see everyone back to the community and so many new creations coming out. It's just very exciting. So thank you.
[00:33:28.919] Sebox Hong: Thank you so much. Yeah.
[00:33:30.060] Kent Bye: Thank you. So that was Grace Lee She's the director of content and culture technology department at Taiwan Creative Content Agency as well as cbox Hong at the Kaohsiung Film Festival and Kaohsiung Film Lab So yeah, just lots of really amazing stuff that's coming out of Taiwan and have some other interviews both with other Craig Quintero and Singing Chen. And also, I'll have another conversation here with Mingyuan Chen, who works for Phonique. And actually, he worked on all three of the different projects that were here at Venice, Immersive 2022 from Taiwan, Redtail, A Man Who Couldn't Leave, and All That Remains. Just to get a little bit more context as to his perspective of working on each of these different projects. So, lots of really amazing stuff that's happening there in Taiwan. There's the Kaohsiung Film Festival, which I think is focusing on the local talent and communities. But as you go to different festivals around the country, I ended up seeing a lot of the different pieces there, whether that's at Venice or South by Southwest, there's usually some other pieces that are being curated from the Kaohsiung Film Festival. And yeah, like I said, just lots of really amazing work that's coming out of Taiwan and great to be able to sit down with a couple of folks to get a little bit more of the context and story as to how that's coming about. So, that's all that I have for today, and I just wanted to thank you for listening to the Voices of VR podcast. And if you enjoy the podcast, then please do spread the word, tell your friends, and consider becoming a member of the Patreon. This is a listener-supported podcast, and so I do rely upon donations from people like yourself in order to continue to bring you this coverage. So you can become a member and donate today at patreon.com slash voicesofvr. Thanks for listening.