Felix & Paul Studios have been innovating on their own immersive VR camera technology since they pioneered the first-ever stereoscopic VR video with Strangers with Patrick Watson. They went on to sign a deal with Oculus Studios to produce a number of different 360 videos including the Introduction to Virtual Reality and a series of anthropological documentaries with Nomads.
I had a chance to catch up with Félix Lajeunesse and Paul Raphaël at Oculus Connect 3, where they were debuting their third VR collaboration with Cirque du Soleil with KÀ: The Battle Within, which features some of the most mind-bending, physics-based acrobatic choreography that I’ve ever seen. They continue to innovate with their camera technology to do things that other camera systems cannot, including maintaining decent stereoscopic effects within the near-field, better dynamic range and control over the framerate. In their Through the Ages: President Obama Celebrates America’s National Parks VR experience, they adapted their camera so that it could capture some awe-inspiring, time-lapse sequences at Yosemite National Park.
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They talked to me about their process of cultivating presence through treating the viewer as a character within the scene, paying attention to camera height, and having long and slow cuts that allow you to really sink into a location. Félix told me that their overarching philosophy is that “everything we do is experiential.” They’re not trying to direct attention, but rather provide many interesting opportunities for you to pay attention to a number of different unfolding processes within any given scene. This is something that André Lauzon told me they always do in Cirque du Soleil productions, and so it’s a natural fit to translate this type of live performance experience into VR. Felix & Paul are always focusing on cultivating that sense of presence and creating an experience whether it’s a branded advertisement for Jurassic World, a documentary about LeBron James pre-season training, or a 40-minute scripted comedy MIYUBI that’s premiering at Sundance 2017.
The quality and caliber of presence that Félix & Paul are able to cultivate within a 360-video is way beyond what I’ve seen anyone else doing within the 360 video space. A big part of it has to do with their camera technology innovations, but it’s also because they have a creative philosophy that involves deeply listening to the unique affordances of the VR medium. Their continued innovation in the space is a big reason why Twentieth Century Fox and The Fox Innovation Lab have partnered with Felix and Paul Studios to develop VR experiences that are based upon Fox IP. Based upon my previous conversation with 20th Century Fox Futurist Ted Schilowitz and what they did with The Martian VR experience, then I expect that they’re going to be treating VR as more than just advertisements for movies, but rather explore how to create VR experiences that stand on their own. Felix and Paul are premiering the longest VR scripted content to date at Sundance in January with MIYUBI, and their VR-specific adaptions of Cirque du Soleil performances and camera technology has proven that their some of the biggest innovators who are dedicated to evolving the language of storytelling within VR.
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Music: Fatality & Summer Trip
Rough Transcript
[00:00:05.412] Kent Bye: The Voices of VR Podcast. My name is Kent Bye, and welcome to the Voices of VR podcast. On today's episode, I have two of the original pioneers of 3D stereoscopic VR videos with Felix Lajeunesse and Paul Raphael of Felix and Paul Studios. So Felix and Paul have collaborated with Oculus Studios to create a number of different VR experiences that a lot of first-time people coming into virtual reality have seen. They created the Introduction to Virtual Reality video, but also the first ever stereoscopic VR video with strangers with Patrick Watson. And last year at Sundance, my top favorite experiences that I saw there were the nomads experiences, specifically the Maasai, where they took a 360 camera within an indigenous tribal culture in Africa and just got some amazing footage that is beyond anything else that I've seen in 360 video so far. And at Oculus Connect 3, they were debuting their third collaboration with Cirque du Soleil with Ka, A Battle Within. So we'll be talking about their latest experiences, how to cultivate presence within a 360 video, as well as some of their technological innovations with their specialized camera technology. So that's what we'll be talking about on today's episode of the Voices of VR podcast. But first, a quick word from our sponsor. Today's episode is brought to you by the Voices of VR Patreon campaign. The Voices of VR podcast started as a passion project, but now it's my livelihood. And so, if you're enjoying the content on the Voices of VR podcast, then consider it a service to you and the wider community and send me a tip. Just a couple of dollars a month makes a huge difference, especially if everybody contributes. So, donate today at patreon.com slash voicesofvr. So this interview with Felix and Paul happened at Oculus Connect 3 in San Jose, California from October 5th to 7th, 2016. So with that, let's go ahead and dive right in.
[00:02:10.757] Félix Lajeuness: So my name is Felix Lajeunesse. I'm creative director and co-founder of Felix and Paul Studios.
[00:02:16.101] Paul Raphaël: And I'm Paul Raphael, co-founder and creative director of Felix and Paul Studios.
[00:02:20.405] Kent Bye: Great. So maybe you could tell me a bit about the new experience that you're just showing off here at Oculus Connect 3.
[00:02:25.338] Félix Lajeuness: So the experience is called K, The Battle Within. It is inspired creatively from an existing Cirque du Soleil show called K. And we actually rethought, redesigned, reconceptualized, restaged the whole experience for virtual reality to make it completely VR native. And so the viewer is sort of immersed into a kind of a gravity-defying experience where you're sort of moving with the acrobats through space in a kind of a zero-g experience. And so it's actually the experience we've created that has the most motion and the most action and gravity-defying elements. And it's a martial arts piece, so it's very sort of martial arts-centric. There's a lot of, I think, impressive choreographies in a beautifully art-directed world.
[00:03:08.616] Kent Bye: Yeah, usually when I see some of these translations of either a show like Cirque du Soleil or theater, you could still see where the audience would be. But in this experience, there's no place for the audience to see it because it's sort of in this other world. Maybe you could talk a bit about the set that you had to create in order to make this VR native experience.
[00:03:26.135] Paul Raphaël: So this is actually shot on the stage of CA. The big difference is when you're watching this show in person, you're very far away, you're in the audience. We actually put the camera on the stage here and we actually took the stage places that you don't usually see from the audience. So for example, there's a scene where we're deep inside the pit where this moving platform comes out of and goes into. When you're watching this from the stage, you just see the platform disappear. It's such a beautiful and impressive structure. We figured we would make it a set piece. And this, I think, is one of the most interesting scenes in the show. So, you know, almost everything that you've seen has been re-choreographed or choreographed from scratch based on the world and the characters and the choreographies that already exist.
[00:04:11.509] Kent Bye: Yeah, I think the other interesting thing about this is that you're directing attention in new ways, either through sound or through having people look. Maybe you could talk a bit about how you're able to direct attention within this experience.
[00:04:24.010] Félix Lajeuness: Well, I gotta say that we rarely think about directing viewers' attention when we create a VR piece. What we think about is creating an experience in which there is generally a dominating element going on. You see what I mean? Like, there's a dominating top-level action that is happening, and that generally drives your interest as a viewer. But even if you decide to sort of look away and in another direction, it still needs to make perfect sense. You still need to feel like you're fully immersed into the piece. And so it's really about crafting a world that is very rich and complex and elaborate, I think. And also making sure that the viewer truly feels emotionally connected to the moment, truly feels present inside of the moment. And so we pull a lot of strings to be able to create that feeling. So honestly, most viewers will end up experiencing it, I guess in a similar way, because they will be driven by the desire to follow the main action. But if someone wanders off and decides to be a rebel and look away, he's still going to be completely connected to the story and to the experiential feeling of the piece.
[00:05:25.916] Kent Bye: What were some of the biggest challenges of working on a piece like this?
[00:05:29.645] Paul Raphaël: So this piece is almost in constant motion and that posed a challenge both technically but also experientially. Especially when the platform is moving, when the ground is tilted 45 degrees and is spinning upside down. These are the sort of things that a lot of people would say at the offset, you don't want to do that in VR. So it took a lot of careful R&D. How far can we push things? How tilted can we get? How fast can we move it? About a month of testing and of doing different things to see what works. And also there's a lot of action very close to the camera, in all directions, all the time, almost. So that meant that we had to push. We've developed a lot of technology throughout the years, and this is a show that we could not have shot even six months ago with the technology we were using, six months prior to when we shot. So that was also pushing the limits quite a bit.
[00:06:22.273] Félix Lajeuness: And there's another dimension when you deal with Cirque du Soleil acrobats or Cirque du Soleil talent, you're actually engaged with people that are not traditional actors. And so there's a way to talk to those people, there's a way to extract performance out of those people. And we collaborated with an amazing director called François Blouin, who's a guy from Montreal, just like us, who actually spent a lot of time in his life working with Cirque du Soleil and understanding that language and how to talk and communicate with those people to get the best out of them. So we tag-teamed with him to really get and extract the essence of those amazing characters because ultimately as a viewer, even if it's a spectacle, as you've experienced, it remains intimate. Those people are close to you and it needs to be genuine in who they are and their character and all of that. It needs to be right because otherwise, even if it's theatrical, you're going to feel it. And so that was also an important dimension of the project.
[00:07:13.017] Kent Bye: Yeah, and it seems like in terms of traditional film, there's a lot of cuts and edits. And I know that from the editing style that I've seen in this piece, but other piece, there seems to be a lot longer time to let a scene unfold. And so it almost feels like one of those music videos that has like a one take. And so it seems like there's a lot of sophisticated choreography that you're doing in each of these takes. So maybe you could talk a bit about the way that you think about that in terms of trying to capture these long stretches of an experience.
[00:07:41.272] Félix Lajeuness: I think when a scene is long, especially when there's a lot of like an ensemble cast of characters, the scene needs to evolve. The scene needs to tell its own story when it's a long scene. And so a lot of those scenes are actually, you know, starting from, let's say, a quiet sort of place, right? And you're sort of connected with the characters and eventually the rhythm starts to accelerate and then more people come in and then the choreography sort of amplifies and it becomes very epic and sort of action-driven, but not right at the get-go. It builds up, right? So it's like a wave that kind of builds up and We try to always kind of create those kind of modulation. It feels like that from an experiential and emotional standpoint, viewers get more transported, more moved inside of each of those scenes when we do it in this more modulated way. And so that is an important aspect, I think, of this project.
[00:08:27.863] Paul Raphaël: I think we would sooner make a scene evolve and modulate but continue than cut to a different angle because you kind of gain two things when you do that. One, you maintain that sense and you enhance that sense of presence which to us is one of the most important parts of virtual reality. And the second, it further seems to justify the medium. You know, more than cutting to somewhere else, you have a 360-degree sphere. If you can organically attract someone's attention somewhere else and at the same time change the nature of the shot, I think that's a much more rewarding type of modulation than just cutting.
[00:09:03.961] Kent Bye: Steve, I'm curious to hear some of your thoughts on presence and how do you cultivate presence within an immersive 360 video experience?
[00:09:12.082] Paul Raphaël: So I would say that presence is the core principle to almost everything, well to everything we've done in VR. I think presence is something that VR allows but it's not automatic. It's something that you need to create and that you need to cultivate within a scene and certain things enhance presence and certain things hurt presence. Defining the viewer The nature of the viewer is something that I think needs a certain degree of coherence. That doesn't mean that the viewer needs to have a very clear definition, but you need to understand who or what the viewer is as you create a piece. Otherwise, the viewer is just a camera, and that's the fastest way to kill presence. If you're just a 360 degree camera, the length of a shot goes a long way into allowing you to seep into that sense of presence. There are experiences that have been cutting more and more and that doesn't necessarily make you nauseous, it doesn't make it technically flawed, but I have yet to see something have a very quick pace and yet maintain presence. And you know, presence may not be the only thing that It's not an end-all or be-all of a VR experience. Maybe you want rhythm, maybe you just want to be able to create a sense of excitement. But personally, I would put presence above excitement and rhythm. And so that requires time within a shot. So most of the stuff we do, a scene will be a shot. I don't think we've ever actually cut within a scene to a different angle or anything like that. So presence also can be enhanced by creating an alignment with the viewer's body. So if you're sitting down watching a piece and what you're seeing is also shot from sitting height, then you feel like you could very well physically be there. You can more easily forget that you're wearing a virtual reality headset. So almost every shot we've ever done has been from sitting height with very few exceptions. We're working on stuff that kind of breaks that, but we're justifying it in interesting ways that still makes you feel like you're embodied in the scene. You know, it's also a fine line. You know, you want to identify the viewer, you want to acknowledge them, but you don't want to do that too much. If you do it too much, you kind of risk pushing the viewer out because they're like, well, I can't react to this. You know, I should. So you need to, it's a fine line you want to toe and you need to acknowledge the viewer, but not too much.
[00:11:27.497] Kent Bye: In terms of the technology, I've heard little rumblings of some of the camera technology that you have. Are you using some sort of mirrors to be able to shoot without having to do stitching?
[00:11:39.064] Félix Lajeuness: It would look cool to have a camera made with mirrors, but it's not what we do. The thing to say about it is it's not a camera rig. It's not a rig of, let's say, GoPro cameras. What we've done, basically, is we've built a camera from scratch that is designed for VR. So it's a single camera with multi-sensors on it. and it's specifically designed for the creative applications that we do and so we constantly iterate on it and so project for projects we sort of bring it to a new place and sort of make it completely adapted to our creative needs and so it's not a camera that we plan to sell, it's not a camera that we plan to release as a commercial product, not at all. It is a tool for filmmakers and that's how we think about it and iterate on it.
[00:12:17.268] Paul Raphaël: Yeah, I think it's by not having to make, if this were a product, we'd have to hit a release date, a price point, you know, it's really just made to be the best possible virtual reality capture system and being creators ourselves and also heading the technological development of the hardware and the software, which both processes and plays back the capture data. I think that's the synergy between having all of that kind of intimately connected is what ultimately allows us to get the results that we do.
[00:12:46.942] Kent Bye: So what are the things that you can do with this camera that you wouldn't be able to do with any other kind of like either a set of GoPros or the Google Jump?
[00:12:53.866] Paul Raphaël: I mean, proximity is a big one, just the quality of the stereoscopy, the scale, the comfort that you get, the ability for the camera itself to move, for things to move next to the camera and around the camera, the quality of the image itself, the resolution, the dynamic range, the frame rate. All of these things need to hit a high quality for you to forget that you're looking at something that isn't really there, that is an illusion. You know, if you see a seam somewhere, if something kind of makes you cross-eyed, you know, no matter how good the content is, that'll quickly pull you out. So, you know, we've made sure to really make sure that if there's something that's going to break what we have, we just won't do it. And, you know, we're very slowly eliminating more and more of these things that we cannot do by iterating on the technology.
[00:13:38.868] Félix Lajeuness: We also find, like, interesting, for example, ideas for technological development that is driven by the creative ideas. So, for example, we just wrapped shooting on a new piece that I can't talk about, but it's with Cirque du Soleil, and so there's ice speed moments in it, there are underwater moments in it, and so those tools don't exist, and so we create those tools for the specific creative applications that we want. We recently released a project called Through the Ages with President Obama, and we wanted to create those time lapses inside of the piece. And so our camera was not able to do that. So how do you create like a very program systematic modes of recording of a few frames a second at multi exposures and how do you do that? So we iterated on our camera technology to implement all of those things from a hardware standpoint, but also from a software standpoint. And we made that specifically for that project. And so that's kind of how it grows for us. It's like we're building those toolboxes to be able to empower the creative vision.
[00:14:32.733] Kent Bye: When I was at Sundance this year, I had a chance to check out your two pieces of Nomads, and I kind of saw it as this anthropological meditation where you're able to just be transported into these other worlds. To me, that's kind of like a documentary type of genre, anthropological work as well. As you think about your work and your style and your sense of storytelling, how do you think about that for yourself?
[00:14:56.637] Félix Lajeuness: Well, first of all, everything we do in the VR space is inherently experiential. And so that applies to any genre. Even if we do like comedy, it's experiential comedy, you know? So like the Miyubi project that we're going to be launching end of year, beginning of next year, is a 40-minute scripted narrative that places you in the body, consciousness, and mind of a small toy family robot in the 1980s. And so the whole piece is told from that perspective. So everything is experiential, everything is also shaped from an understanding of what the viewer represents inside of the story and how the viewer's presence is in relation to the characters of the piece in a non-fiction piece as well as in a fiction piece. And so we have a lot of common ground ideas or conceptions of how to approach VR storytelling that are there in all of our projects. But then it can grow into different genres, into different styles, into different kind of creative worlds and stuff like that. So the Nomads piece is a pure sort of human kind of experience, right? You are with those people and you connect with them without a sense of filter, without a sense that you're a tourist, with a sense of being like native to that culture. And we actually spent a huge amount of time with those people in the camera just so that they get used to it, just so that it feels like it's part of the reality and that's when we started filming. So that was specific to that process and I think it works.
[00:16:19.138] Kent Bye: So just in looking at a lot of the content that Felix & Paul Studios has been producing, you know, in my mind there's something that you're doing in terms of the overall production and mindset and philosophy that you have that I think that it kind of feels like you're ahead of the game in terms of the way that you think about doing 360 videos. So maybe you could talk a bit about how you guys get into doing this.
[00:16:40.509] Paul Raphaël: How did we get into this? So, we've been doing this for about three years now. You know, when we did Strangers, there just had never been a 360 degree 3D video. So, we had to develop the technology, we had to develop what little grammar we thought was needed for a piece to be presentable. And so, before doing Strangers, the Patrick Watson piece, we did a series of tests, technological tests, but also experiential tests, But really what came before that was about three or four years of experimentation in what we now call pre-VR, which was stuff we were doing that was very similar in terms of style and tone and experience, but that we did using 3D stereoscopic projection. So we actually did a few documentaries that are very similar in tone to Nomads. so whether it's Sea Gypsies or the Maasai experience, in 3D. And these were experiences where you would sit down in a sweet spot and you'd watch a screen that was of a specific size and a specific distance, and that kind of felt like a window onto another world. And so, you know, whatever tech and style and language we developed in those three or four years was really the foundation for everything we started doing in 2013 with Strangers and the Nomad series. and eventually the Jurassic World and everything that came after that. So even though we were starting from scratch, we kind of hit the ground running from our previous experience.
[00:18:05.077] Kent Bye: So finally, what do you see as the ultimate potential of virtual reality and what it might be able to enable?
[00:18:11.870] Félix Lajeuness: I think it's fair to say that it is going to be the next computing platform. It's going to be in all aspects of society. I believe that it's going to be part of education. It's going to be part of the medical world. It's going to be hugely part of entertainment. It's going to profoundly, I think, affect, impact and change the entertainment world. and the storytelling world, and also the way we communicate. I think that this whole idea of no longer just sharing fragments of experiences, but rather sharing full experiences, it's just a natural thing, it's kind of meant to be, and it's just a matter of time before it applies to global culture.
[00:18:47.827] Paul Raphaël: You know what I find really interesting is that art often imitates life but life imitates art and as we move away from these more abstracted forms of art such as cinema and no medium has been that close to replicating reality as virtual reality and as our art becomes that much richer I believe it's actually going to enrich our lives and just the way we connect to a story but also the sense of presence that we talk a lot about in virtual reality I think is something that can translate to the real world and you know you can talk about presence in the real world well if you spend eight hours a day watching something that doesn't Allow you much presence like a two-dimensional film versus spending eight hours eventually in a virtual environment Well, once you get out of there, you've been trained to being more present even in your real life So I find that very interesting as well.
[00:19:37.765] Kent Bye: Yeah, me too. I find the same thing. So awesome Well, I just want to thank you for joining me for today on the podcast. Thank you, man. Thank you So that was Felix Lajeunesse and Paul Raphael of Felix and Paul Studios, and they are the pioneers of 3D stereoscopic VR experiences. So I have a number of different takeaways about this interview is that, first of all, I think of all the different 360 video productions that are out there, I think that Felix and Paul's production quality is just head and shoulders above anyone else that I've seen so far. Part of it, I think, is because of their camera technology is just so amazing. I think it's a lot better than anything else that's out there. The closest thing that I've seen so far has been the Google Jump camera, which does a pretty good job, but I think there's something about them creating their own camera technology that has allowed them to do even more sophisticated things. I mean, some of the time-lapse photography that's in the Through the Ages experience with President Obama going to Yellowstone National Park, it's just breathtaking and completely amazing. And the other experiences that they've done, the Nomad app that you can get on the Gear VR, Maasai is one of my favorite experiences. It just is completely transportive, where you don't actually feel like you're a tourist. You feel like you're experiencing the scene as if you weren't even there. And so it's just they're carrying on with their normal business. So it just feels like you're embedded there as a native. And overall, their editing style is just super spacious. It just allows you to really settle into the scene. And they take particular consideration. They said that in order to really focus on cultivating that presence is that first of all, they're taking in consideration the camera height. So they're assuming that you're going to be sitting down watching these experiences. have typically placed the camera at that height, but also their whole mindset of creating an experience. Felix said that everything that they do is experiential. They're trying to, with each and every scene, it has its own story arc, its own trajectory, its own process of unfolding. And they try to compose different shots so that no matter where you look, there's at least something interesting going on or to look at. and that they're not trying to be heavy-handed and trying to show you what to actually look at. Back in episode 141, I talked to Andre Lazon of Cirque du Soleil, and that was with the Curios 360 video that was their second collaboration with the Cirque du Soleil. But working with what Cirque du Soleil is doing and translating that into VR, I think is probably one of the closest and best translations to the type of visual storytelling that can happen and what they're doing in their performances. And that just completely works within virtual reality. I mean, I would recommend you check out both the Curios as well as the Call Battle Within experiences, especially that last scene in Call is just completely awe-inspiring in terms of what they're able to do with the type of experience that really goes beyond what you could actually reasonably experience as an individual because they have this 360 camera on this rotating platform and they have this physics bending acrobatic choreography that is just beyond anything else I've ever seen or experienced before. So it's a completely unique experience that is definitely worth checking out. But in talking to Andre Lazon back in episode 141, he said that in a show like Cirque du Soleil, there's always multiple things to look at no matter what you're looking at. It's just inherently creating this type of experience with all the different primary actions and secondary and tertiary things to actually be tracking and watching. And so given that, no matter where you're looking, you have something that is unfolding in some way. Now, I'd say that there is something that is a little bit different between that type of fictional narrative and some of the documentary and anthropological work that they've been doing. I had a chance to watch all of their backlog of their different experiences, and there's a consistent stream of being able to just transport you to a place, a physical location, and they often try to preference talking directly at you in the camera without doing a lot of different voiceover. And if they do any voiceover, it's because they've already done some sort of establishing shot to establish that this is who is talking to you and how it's going to be integrated into B-roll shots. I think within a VR experience it's so much better to have somebody that is in the scene talking about something rather than trying to capture some footage and then add some sort of story on top of it later. If you could try to capture it in that moment then it's just going to be much more authentic and make it a much more coherent experience so you actually feel like you're present to whatever is unfolding. The other thing that I thought was interesting that they were saying is that they try to think about your relationship to the characters as a viewer, such that everything is shaped from what the viewer represents in the story and how your character is related to the other characters. and how I interpret that and what they're trying to do is that you know you can either be a ghost or a character within the story and you either have impact or no impact and so since this is a 360 video you essentially have no impact on the story no matter what you do it's always going to be the same outcome and so you don't really have any agency and so but they're still trying to treat you as if you were there and they're trying to incorporate you within that experience one just simple example is that in the LeBron James documentary they have a camera that's in the back seat that is sitting right next to LeBron James. And so as he's talking, you can kind of like feel like you're riding in the car with him. And so it's not this impossible perspective that would be completely not even feasible for you to be embodied. And so they're just trying to really carefully craft the placement of the camera, the camera height, and just make sure that wherever you're looking at it, they're just trying to cultivate it so that it actually feels like you could feasibly be within that scene. sitting down in some part of that environment. I've seen a number of different 360 degree videos that don't do that, that have a camera that is in impossible places for where humans could be, or it's at an eyeline that's much higher, or even have the IPD of the lenses so that the whole world looks smaller than it should be. So it doesn't sound like they're trying to market their camera that they've built, but I can just say that based upon the experiences that I've seen so far, it's definitely one of the best that I've seen out there so far. And they just recently announced a partnership with Fox interactive lab. And so they're going to be doing a lot more branded content, presumably with some of the movies that are going to be coming out. So it'll be interesting to see how they take what they're doing. I think that they're at the point where they want to really create experiences that are completely customized to the VR medium. If you look at what they've been doing with the Cirque du Soleil, they're not just doing a one-to-one port from, you know, a theater show and just capturing it in VR. They're actually changing it and really customizing it. And with their latest VR experience that's gonna be premiering at Sundance, it's a 40 minute narrative. And so they're really focusing on the type of experiences that you can create just with the VR medium alone. And so I'd expect to see a lot more original scripted content coming out that could be completely disconnected from some of the other movies that are out there. It could be just original IP or something that is taking the medium of virtual reality and really innovating on some meaningful way. rather than just using VR to create an advertisement for a movie, but rather create an experience that stands on its own. So keep an eye on Felix and Paul Studios, and if you haven't checked out Nomads or Call, I would definitely recommend you check it out and download it. And if you want to see some of the best 360 stereoscopic video that's been done so far, definitely check those out. So that's all that I have for today. I just wanted to thank you for joining me on the Voices of VR podcast. And if you enjoyed the podcast, then please do tell your friends, spread the word, and become a donor. Just a few dollars a month makes a huge difference, especially if everyone contributes. So go to patreon.com slash Voices of VR. Thanks for listening.
