#675: Internet Archive’s Brewster Kahle on the Future of the Decentralized Web

Brewster Kahle told me that the average of a web page on the Internet is 100 days before it either changes or disappears completely. Kahle realized that you can’t run a culture when you have no institutional memory, and so he started the Internet Archive in order to preserve our online cultural heritage that turns out to be extremely ephemeral.

But then the Snowden revelations came, which showed Kahle how the open web has been transformed into an engine of mass surveillance for governments. Then Cambridge Analytica happen, which showed how advertising platforms could be transformed into bespoke instruments of information warfare by hostile foreign nations. These issues of mass surveillance, privacy, & censorship illustrated to Kahle the dangers of the consolidation of power within centralized governments and corporations.

This motivated Kahle to do something about it. He saw how brittle online information can already be, but it’s even worse now with the rise of fake news, governmental censorship, and information warfare. Foundations including Mozilla Foundation, Open Society, Knight Foundation, MacArthur Foundation, and Ford Foundation asked Kahle what his “Moonshot for the Internet” would be, and his answer was to build the decentralized web.

The Internet Archive sponsored the first Decentralized Web Summit in 2016, and this second gathering in 2018 represents a critical mass of some of the most key architects coming together to build A New Internet™. The fact that this is the narrative focus HBO’s Silicon Valley was not lost on the crowd gathered a few weeks ago as creator Mike Judge was featured in the opening session talking about how fact meets fiction in his show.

But I had a chance to talk with Kahle about the underlying motivation for why he wants to build a decentralized web, how the Internet Archive wants to help create a web that’s more self-archiving and resilient to censorship, but also what he’s doing personally to support different decentralized web initiatives including building a decentralized version of the Internet archive at DWeb.archive.org.


This is a listener-supported podcast through the Voices of VR Patreon.

Music: Fatality

Rough Transcript

[00:00:05.412] Kent Bye: The Voices of VR Podcast. Hello, my name is Kent Bye, and welcome to the Voices of VR podcast. So Brewster Kahle is the founder of the Internet Archive. If you've never used the Internet Archive, it's been able to capture these snapshots of the internet, the entire internet, as much as it can crawl and store. And so if you've ever found a broken URL, you can go to archive.org and go into the Wayback Machine and see if there's a copy that's been stored within the archive. And this is because Brewster Kahle had this vision to be able to provide universal access to all human knowledge. And he saw this tragedy of what was happening on the web, which was that there was all this cultural folk art that was just disappearing. Brewster told me that the average lifetime of a single web page is around 100 days before it's either changed or deleted. And so if you want to run a culture, then you need to have a way of preserving your cultural heritage. And libraries used to take on that role. They used to buy up books and have multiple copies all around into different libraries around the country. But what's happening with the internet is that with these centralized choke points, once things go offline, then they're offline forever. And so Brewster's been thinking a lot about trying to create an internet architecture that's going to be much more self-preserving and self-archiving. and resilient to both censorship but also making information available for people if they want to see it. But there's also things that he was motivated in terms of the Edward Snowden revelations of how this open web that we've created has been basically transformed into this spy network for these centralized governments. And these ad networks have been created by these major companies are not completely resilient to being infiltrated to hostile foreign nations to be able to conduct information warfare on a populace. And so in thinking about all of these various different issues, when asked by these five major foundations of Mozilla Foundation, the Open Society, Knight Foundation, MacArthur Foundation, the Ford Foundation, like when asked what would be the moonshot for the internet, he really wanted to build a decentralized internet. And so at this decentralized web summit, they announced this dweb.archive.org, which is a decentralized version of the internet archive. And just to put this in a bit of a context for virtual reality, when we think about the metaverse and we think about, you know, what is this metaverse going to be? Is it going to be controlled by one corporation like is depicted in Ready Player One? Or is it going to be a decentralized metaverse that is open and being able to preserve our free speech and our freedom of expression, but also make it much more equitable in terms of how value is being redistributed to the entire community? So there's a lot of applications for what the future of this decentralized immersive web is going to look like. And Brewster's kind of on the front lines of trying to figure out a lot of these open questions and to help actually put a lot of money into backing, supporting a lot of these different initiatives to be able to really bootstrap this decentralized web. So that's what we're covering on today's episode of the Voices of VR podcast. So this interview with Brewster happened on Wednesday, August 1st, 2018 at the Decentralized Web Summit in San Francisco, California. So with that, let's go ahead and dive right in.

[00:03:13.807] Brewster Kahle: Brewster Kahle, founder and digital librarian of the Internet Archive. For me, when I really realized I've got to spend a lot of serious time on this was the Snowden revelations. That basically we've taken what has been just a huge sharing experiment, which has been the world wide web of people opening themselves up. and finding out that we're being spied on at scale. And then the next real kick in the pants was how the last presidential election proceeded, with fake news, with manipulation of populations by using ad networks to push elections around, with people being manipulated without knowing they're being manipulated. really has put a lot of emphasis for me running the Internet Archive, where I see ourselves in a civic society role. We're trying to make technology that makes it so there are lots of winners, that end users aren't being punked, that we're not lining people up for slaughter, that we're not building a system that's negative. So I said, okay, we built this stuff the first time around. go and fix this thing. And fortunately, we've got a bunch of toys to be able to play with that Tim Berners-Lee didn't have the first time. We have encryption that's legal this time. It wasn't legal when Tim came out with his system. We've got JavaScript to be able to go and download software to the browser and use the browser, not just for displaying a page, but being an application. That's the magic behind a Google Doc or a Google Map or the like. But we can actually run whole computer systems. We can build an operating system by linking the web browsers of the internet. So we can build a decentralized web. And what would we do if we could do that? What would be the values we'd want to bake into the code this time around? Can we make it censorship resistant? Can we make it so there's freedom of expression and freedom of the press baked in? Can we make it so there's reader privacy is much better protected? So that what it is you're looking at can't be easily scooped up and resold or used for interrogations by government corporations or anybody. Can we build these things? And the answer is absolutely we can. And the Decentralized Web Summit is a fabulous coming together of the original gangsters, whether it's the Vint Cerfs and Tim Berners-Lees, and the younger group that's making next-generation decentralized systems, whether it's blockchain that's gotten so much attention. But there's now other systems for going and doing peer-to-peer storage of materials, peer-to-peer databases. So you could run a Twitter, but decentralized. You could do a Slack, but decentralized. You could do a Google Doc. but decentralized. Well, I'd like to make it so that the cool new technologies that are coming out don't always have a creepy aspect to it, which seems to be the case. All these new technologies, like, yeah, but who's getting what information? Wouldn't it be nice to just have new technology that didn't have the creep factor? I think that's the North Star that we should be going towards. And we have 650 people, the builders, architects, but also lawyers and humanitarians from around the world that are trying to reshape what the World Wide Web can become based on experience of where we've come from.

[00:06:54.575] Kent Bye: Yeah, there seems to be these fundamental polarities, whether it's centralization, decentralization, whether it's this yang and the yang of the competitive and the cooperative aspects. And to me, the economic sort of foundations of either the centralized or the decentralized web is a big open question in my mind. What's going to fund it? But I'm curious to hear from you and your own personal journey of having some successes and building different startups to accumulate a lot of wealth and then to decide to start something like the Internet Archive to try to preserve this cultural heritage of the 21st century's version of the Library of Alexandria. to do this education and make this available. That was a decision that you made, but that's not necessarily baked within the algorithmic systems of our society. And I don't know if it's going to be able to ever make it sort of algorithmic, or if it's always going to have to be a decision of those who are big winners are going to have to make that choice, or how to make the economics of all this really sustainable.

[00:07:57.202] Brewster Kahle: Yes, I sold a company to AOL and to Amazon, did very well. But it's always in the service of this broader goal of trying to make universal access to all knowledge. So it may seem kind of unintuitive that if you keep a sort of big public goal in mind that you can be successfully rewarded in the meantime. But actually I found that to be the case completely in my journey. I've been more successful the more I've given away. Because the more I've given away, the more impact I've had. The more impact I've had, the more people want to help. A little unobvious with sort of classic economics where you have to hoard things and cause a monopoly to go and be successful. I haven't found that to be the case. And a lot of others have also done just perfectly well by going and trying to drive towards a very big positive goal. And pick a goal that is outside of your ability to do it alone. I really am very sorry for the people that set the goal of, I want to make a million dollars. Because what happens when you make that million? I think it was kind of like Moby Dick. When Ab actually got his whale, he went down with it. And I think Marvin Minsky, who maybe didn't coin the word, but in AI and artificial intelligence. It was a goal that was so big and lofty that lots of people knew how to work towards that goal without all working in the same organization. So for me, the equivalent was universal access to all knowledge. And that's been this sort of guiding light. And how do we do that? And right now we've got a web that's got firewalls such that the Internet Archive is completely blocked in China. And it's completely blocked, I think, in Turkey and sometimes blocked in parts of India. And why? I mean, this doesn't make any sense at all. So if there's some mechanisms to go and build technologies that make it so that things are universally accessible and over time, so that as people publish things, they don't just don't blink off the web. The average life of a web page is 100 days. before it's either changed or deleted. 100 days, and it's called pages, right? So it sounds like paper, right, which lasts hundreds of years. Well, this stuff doesn't. And so the Internet Archive has been trying to patch this by going and building the Wayback Machine, archive.org, where you can type a URL, see past web pages, awesome. But really, we want it built into the system itself. Can we go and build a next-generation web that has a memory to it. So it's more like Git, where you can go and check out past versions easily. You can fork websites. You can run old websites, even after they've taken them down, because they're still useful to you. Run them in the sense of code that runs, not just what did the web pages look like. So these are some of the goals out of the decentralized web for me. Reliable, reader private, but still fun and interesting. Let's make it so that there's code that's downloadable that runs as part of the decentralized web so you can build apps, whether it's VR type apps or Google Docs like apps, or peer-to-peer distribution systems into the web itself. This is what this group is coming together to try to pilot. And we now have working code. We have dweb.archive.org. We've been working on this for a while. So we have archive.org, which is 40 petabytes of books, music, video, web pages. And we now have a read-only version. It kind of works. It's a little, it's like a swap meet where you look at the engine of the car. But you can go to dweb.archive.org. and be able to see a read-only version, because we don't know how to do decentralized identities yet, of 40 petabytes of data. And that's pretty cool. So we're now at the point that there's demos and working code coming up of this decentralized vision.

[00:12:05.824] Kent Bye: So I think one of the metaphors I think about in terms of how this might work is that you have right now what you can kind of see as passive consumption, where someone else is taking care of all the logistics of centralizing and maintaining and paying for the servers that are out there. And if I, as a website creator, want to put information out there, I have to pay for that. And so there's sort of a burden on the content creators to do that. But it seems like a little bit of a switch such that If you want content to get out there, it's almost like the ones that are most widely distributed, rather than it being super expensive, it actually becomes cheaper for it to get out there. But you're kind of switching that burden on those individual content creators onto the consumers to become active participants in both consuming and redistributing that content. but at that same time those active participants have to figure out how to get content up that's persistent and all these things that they may not be worried about like basically becoming sysadmins in their own ways, especially if you have mobile phones where you're managing battery power and you know there's this sort of pragmatic element of what is the mechanism by which individuals, if they wanted to participate, could actually rebroadcast some of this information out there into this sort of vision of the decentralized web, but kind of moving from a passive consumer to an active participant in the redistribution of content.

[00:13:24.412] Brewster Kahle: You're absolutely right. So basically all the readers become writers, or at least hosts and servers. But we can't live just exactly on that. I think that was the failing of BitTorrent. So BitTorrent basically has the people that have read files serve them again. But if you don't have a cedar of last resort, if you don't have archives built into it, then only the popular survives. And that's not good enough. You can't run a culture that way. And we saw what happened. BitTorrent is mostly used for really popular things like operating systems and movies. So if we want to build something else, we want this peer-to-peer, so you have The people near you or the people that are reading your stuff also start serving it. But we need supernodes built in as well. And we need them motivated in different reasons. So some supernodes I suggest in the decentralized web will be people like ISPs. The internet service providers that are going to want faster response for their users. So this would be like a CDN, a content distribution network that anybody could use just by using the decentralized web. And the ISPs would go and make things available. But they don't have any real commitment to long term, but archives do. So can we go and get archives like archive.org, Internet Archive, to go and play a permanent role? And so we are going and saying yes to every decentralized system that's coming around and saying, we want to be a super node in your network. We've offered everything via BitTorrent that's on the Internet Archive, but it doesn't make it so that other people that go and post are necessarily BitTorrented and served off the archive. So we'd like, in this next generation of technologies, let's make it so that, yes, it'll still work with just peer-to-peer, but there are supernodes and incentives built all the way into the stack.

[00:15:12.822] Kent Bye: I tend to see technology as a reflection of humanity and our culture and that sometimes we like to use a technological solution to address what may be a fundamental human dynamic and one example that comes to mind is like illegal content, like say child pornography or something like this, which is illegal and there's a lot of laws around that. But if you have something like a decentralized system and you get this content out there, then once it's out there, it's out there. And then how do you sort of take it back? So I'm just curious to hear what you think about that in terms of these issues of the decentralized web and that type of content.

[00:15:49.051] Brewster Kahle: The decentralized web is more censorship resistant, I guess you'd say. But good people want to take things down and bad people want to take things down. And sometimes, you know, who's good or bad tends to vary. The decentralized web makes it more difficult, but not impossible. So what's starting to happen now with platforms where governments are going saying, these are things we don't want on any of these platforms, they're circulating a set of hashes or identifiers for files that are things that are improper within some definition that they think is improper and they want other people to not host them. Then they pass around these hashes and then these platform companies do whatever they're going to do with them. They pay attention or they don't pay attention. to them. I think that's going to be how it works in the decentralized web. That there's going to be things that are like, ah, let's not have that up there. Or, you know, the Internet Archive is really just not invested in serving that kind of material. So there'll be things that will take down. So it'll be a different takedown procedure, but it'll still exist. I think we've had a system now where there's only been one copy. It's been on the web server it came from. And if that person or owner or admin ever wants it to go away, they can just blink it off. And that's too fragile. We've seen that now with the United States government taking off a lot of these documents that have been up for a long time. And in fact, it's not up to a publisher to be its own archive. But that's what the World Wide Web allows, or it's the only thing that it allows. And so the website is the arbiter of everything in the future. We're locked into that future. So why don't we build archives and libraries and replication into the system, like how we grew up when there were libraries that bought multiple copies of books. So if one library burned down and the book didn't go away, it would be available from the others. This is more the central idea of the decentralized web, is in some sense to bring back some of the robustness that we've had for centuries on how to run a culture.

[00:17:50.358] Kent Bye: And censorship seems to be a big topic here. Also, when you look at countries like China, I recently was in China and was dealing with the Great China Firewall, not able to have access to either Facebook or Twitter or YouTube or, you know, a whole range of sites of new sites that I couldn't have access to. And so is also the vision of the Decentralized Web Summit to be able to find ways of circumventing governmental censorship.

[00:18:16.092] Brewster Kahle: I think there's going to be sophisticated places like China that will do all sorts of things to be able to thwart any challenges to their authority. But I think there's a lot of cases that it's more arbitrary and sort of broken. And I think the decentralized technologies will work better for it. In India, for instance, there are some judges that just make these judgments in tiny courts reflecting interests of music or movie producers, and they just give a list of websites they want to have taken off. And then if some random judge goes, oh sure, let's take archive.org off ISPs, they circulate it to ISPs, and the whole website starts blinking offline for sets of people in India. I think that kind of clumsy, not terribly thought through forms of takedowns, the decentralized web will correct.

[00:19:11.177] Kent Bye: Great. So for you, what are some of the either biggest problems that you're trying to solve or open questions that you're trying to answer?

[00:19:18.981] Brewster Kahle: We're trying to solve some of the problems raised by Edward Snowden and from the last presidential election cycle. So Snowden showed that their existing web has become a large-scale spy network that's spied on by governments and large corporations. And the last presidential election cycle showed that we're being manipulated as part of large-scale advertising networks and fake news networks of trolls. And we need a better web system to work. I mean, we're way too dependent on the information we get online to have this kind of inefficiencies and clumsiness to survive. So we need to fix the technologies. Ways that we look to do that is with a peer-to-peer backend for the web, so that it kind of works a little bit more like BitTorrent, if you will, in terms of where web pages and web resources come from. But we also now need decentralized identity. We need decentralized naming so that you can have websites that are named in intuitive ways and make that work. So we have a lot to do. We're starting to see here at the Decentralized Web Summit some existing systems starting to work. So dweb.archive.org I think is kind of cool. But there's CryptoKitties, there's a bunch of different, they're mostly demos. But it's based on a lot of hard work of people doing protocol and implementation behind the scenes to make decentralized web work.

[00:20:46.329] Kent Bye: And talking to Wendy, she said that there is a about a list of 13 questions that you were trying to address amongst the larger initiatives of decentralization. Maybe you could talk about some of what you see as some of the hottest like open questions that are in the field of decentralization.

[00:21:01.198] Brewster Kahle: Some of the hot questions are around identity or how do you do permissions when these files are living other places? Do you do it with encryption? Is it just who you have keys? How do you do key management? It's really hard to try to keep your Bitcoin keys, much less a bunch of different keys or passwords that we have for lots of different websites. I mean, that's everybody's problem. And we'll have that in spades in the decentralized web. Authentication systems, security of different forms. I think one aspect is applications that are really usable by end users. So how do we make it so you can click, start using things, and you don't care whether it's decentralized or not, it's just better. Can we take the creepy out of new applications? Can we make it so that the UIs work so well, and yes, they're on a decentralized backend, but actually you wouldn't care. But it just is better. I want blank, but decentralized, where you put a lot of different blanks in there. Twitter, but decentralized. Google Docs, but decentralized. Google Maps, but decentralized. WordPress, but decentralized. I'm hoping that over the next year, two years, we start to see a whole plethora of these coming out from those original companies. or from new startups that go and say, look, you know, it's too fragile to go and run things where all your data is on somebody else's servers that might be in a country you don't all exactly trust. And people are starting to not trust the United States for everything. So how do we go and make these systems work? I think it's valid business models, so real funded, fundable, real ways of going, as well as civic society organizations like the Internet Archive that are trying to do this just because it's our duty to do things in the public interest.

[00:22:53.313] Kent Bye: Great. And finally, what do you think is kind of the ultimate potential of decentralized systems and what it might be able to enable?

[00:23:03.292] Brewster Kahle: The ultimate goal for me is to have it to cool kids that want to do something new and different and neat. Do it on this new platform of technologies that are serving all of us. So when you're a band and you want to go and sell your new record, you do it on the decentralized web. When you're publishing something in Scientific Journal, you do it on the decentralized web and you put the data behind it on the decentralized web. that we have universities and companies and governments all supporting and doing their part to archive and make permanent the good works that are being made over the decentralized web. The decentralized web can be a smooth evolution from the existing web, but it can be a very exciting future.

[00:23:50.476] Kent Bye: Is there anything else that's left unsaid that you'd like to say to the decentralized community?

[00:23:55.091] Brewster Kahle: dive in, get going, try something. Go to dweb.archive.org and complain about it and go to GitHub and fix it. Go in and just try out IPFS, try out CryptoKitties, just dive in and get going. It's an exciting area, but it's not easy. And it requires people everywhere from artists, humanitarians, to lawyers, but right now also a lot of coders.

[00:24:20.082] Kent Bye: Awesome. Well, Brewster, I just wanted to thank you for joining me on the podcast. So thank you.

[00:24:24.200] Brewster Kahle: Thank you very much.

[00:24:43.358] Kent Bye: putting all of his effort and initiative to support as many of those initiatives that are out there. Not only by holding this Decentralized Web Summit and providing a platform to help bring all these people together, but also just putting out code. The dweb.archive.org is an example of what's possible with bringing all these different technologies together. And, you know, there's this issue right now of freedom of speech and censorship and the abuses of power that comes from centralized entities, whether it's a corporation or a company or a government. You know, when I was at Sundance this year, I went to see a documentary called The Cleaners. Now, something like Facebook or YouTube or Twitter, whenever there's a content violation that's submitted, it goes off to this country in Malaysia where there's people who are from a completely different culture and their incentives are to not get it wrong. If they get too many of them wrong, then they basically get fired. And so any content violations that are reported, there's this defaulting to suppressing that speech and that expression rather than to let it be out there. That's happening at the most extreme edges of society in these different groups, but it's happening every day within the context of like in China, in Turkey, in India. Even with the Internet Archive, Brewster Kahle shared this story at the Decentralized Web Summit where he says he gets this phone call from a representative from the Chinese consulate saying, hey, there's this video that you need to take down. And he's like, okay, sure, fine, we'll go ahead and take it down for the region of China. And the representative from the Chinese consulate was like, no, you have to take it down for the entire world. And Brewster was like, well, we're not going to do that. And then China ended up blocking the Internet Archive. And so you have an entity like the Internet Archive who's trying to provide this universal access to all human knowledge and having to face these different types of governments like China saying, hey, we want you to censor this information. And if they don't, then they basically get blocked. Over a billion people within China don't have access now to this cultural heritage that the Internet Archive has been collecting. And so if you start to extrapolate that out for anybody that's an international and global company having to interface with all these governments, you have this dynamic where each of these governments are going to start to create this balkanized internet where it's not even going to be sure what is going to be able to be shared amongst the different rules of different centralized powers. They're going to want to have specific information not be able to be shared. And so You have this balkanization that's happening and the censorship. And I think a lot of the initiatives that are happening at the Decentralized Web Summit, we're thinking about, well, how can you create these either decentralized mesh networks? What are the economic incentives? What are the protocols to be able to actually enable this? And are you able to actually create a platform that's as consistent and reliable than a centralized Internet? Part of the reason why the centralized internet is so successful is because it's able to do things like eliminate spam and have a really great user experience, and it's consistent and reliable, and that gets better with the economies of scale with those centralized entities. But the trade-off is the loss of freedom and control and power when those centralized powers end up gaining too much power and control. And that's part of the thing that he's also pointing to, which was the Snowden revolutions, which is essentially these revelations that the US governments were in cahoots and collaborating with all of these major tech companies to be able to essentially Siphon and get a direct feed from all of this private information and data and so there's the weaponization of not only information for you know information warfare done through the ad networks, you know on the on front end but on the back end to be able to feed into these intelligence agencies and these government agencies all this personal data about ourselves that is basically becoming into this massive surveillance state in Big Brother. So you have this centralization issue that I see that the abuses of power that are happening either at the corporate level or the governmental level and that The antidote to that is these decentralized web platforms. Now, it's an open question as to whether or not these decentralized web would be any more resilient to some of these same kind of threats that are coming today. But I think the overall thing that I'm getting is, you know, how do you actually embed your values into either the culture or into providing different networks that are censorship resistant, have freedom of expression, the freedom of the press, and reader privacy? But also, there are going to be issues of content that is going to be beyond the pale and crossing the line of legality. So if it is censorship resilient, then what about the content that has a legitimate reason for not being out there? And that could be, in some ways, propagating more trauma and harm. And what Brewster said is that there's going to be people who are good people that are wanting stuff to be taken down for good reason, and then people who are going to be wanting to have information taken down for reasons that may be completely self-interested, rather than in the interest of the entire collective. So I think it's a bit of a wait and see. And if you're excited about this vision of creating something different, then I encourage people to go ahead and start building both with some of these decentralized web technologies. There's a number of different metaphors that Brewster was talking about in his talk, which is when he was able to see with Jason Scott that you're able to do an emulator of an arcade game and basically simulate a computer within the context of a web browser and to be able to do that safely, Now, all of a sudden you have like these computers and these web applications that are running in the context of your browser that is going to be able to bootstrap this whole decentralized web where you have these different nodes, where if you're downloading different content, then that browser tab, as long as it's open, can start to then serve out other people into this kind of bit torrent like peer to peer sharing network with things like IPFS and other peer to peer types of technologies. And so being able to take Individuals computers and be able to connect them directly right now We a lot of people go through the internet service providers, but these decentralized mesh networks are going to be potentially some alternative internet that is completely decentralized and this is something that is being depicted in Silicon Valley of where fiction meets reality where this is what a lot of people at the decentralized web summit are actually trying to figure out and actually trying to build and figure out all of the economic incentives and ways to actually sustain it and to get people to collaborate and participate as a culture, but also the legal implications and law around it, as well as the architecture and the code and the different protocols to make it all happen. So the Decentralized Web Summit was a really inspiring gathering. It felt palpable. I mean, the very first day that we're there, there was just people in the hallways just buzzing and talking to each other. And you just sense that there was something that was really coming, that this was a time where there was enough people of a critical mass and a lot of the different core technologies that are out there to actually start to build this. I mean, there was some working code that was being shown at the Decentralized Web Summit, both from solid from Tim Berners-Lee and MIT as well as dweb.archive.org and many different other examples that are out there of building decentralized web applications. So I'll be covering more takeaways and insights from the Decentralized Web Summit, especially as it kind of relates to virtual reality technologies more explicitly. But I've got a few more interviews to kind of cover to be able to talk about these larger ecosystem issues when it comes to both the law and the technology and the different economic dynamics that are happening around technology today. So, that's all that I have for today, and I just wanted to thank you for listening to the Voices of VR podcast. And if you enjoy the podcast, then please do spread the word, tell your friends, share these on social media, and consider becoming a member of the Patreon. This is a listeners-supported podcast, and so I do rely upon your donations in order to continue to bring you this type of coverage. So, you can donate today at patreon.com slash voicesofvr. Thanks for listening.

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