#284: Beyond Room-Scale: Exploring Infinite Worlds with THE VOID

James-JensenOn my way out to cover the VR at Sundance, I had a chance to try out one of the most advanced Digital Out of Home Entertainment systems today in an industrial park in the middle of Utah. The VOID goes beyond room-scale with their minimum 60’x60′ stage in order to trick you into walking into circles without even noticing. Curved physical walls feel like they’re straight even when you’re touching them while walking around a quarter circle. Every time I reached out for a wall or corner, I found one and it reinforced this primal part of myself that this virtual world was being mirrored in reality. The VOID is starting to realize the vision of exploring infinite virtual worlds at 1:1 scale, and they’re doing it with a lot of custom hardware, some visionary dreams, a lot of hard work, and a little bit of magic.


James Jensen is the Chief Visionary Officer of The VOID, and it was his dream to mix virtual worlds with actual worlds. Ken Bretschneider and Curtis Hickman originally hired James as a contractor to create a virtualized pre-visualization of a theme park attraction. They asked James if he had any other ideas for a good virtual attraction, and he shared his long-time vision of creating a virtual world that would be juxtaposed on top of the physical world. James, Ken & Curtis would go on to found The VOID using the Oculus DK1 and DK2 systems to catalyze their prototype development.

However, they soon found a number of limitations with the consumer VR hardware, and started to build their own custom computer backpacks, integrate their own optical tracking solutions, as well as add a number of different 5D effects to increase the immersion. Even with DK2-level graphics and some spotty optical tracking, I experienced an impressive level of astonishment and awe in being able to walk around in VR for as long as I did while maintaining a sense of presence.

Perhaps even more impressive is The VOID’s content delivery infrastructure that allows a worker to change out multiple experiences within a single, physical maze template. The alpha prototype was only one quarter of the final design, but it is a structure that allows multiple choices beyond a single linear path. The combination of redirected walking and changing turning velocities tricks participants into walking in actual circles while virtually walking either in a straight lines or a 90-degree turn.

I went through the experience, and was amazed that I ended up right where I began. And I was even more amazed when I got to shadow the next participant and see how he was just as tricked as I was. With all of the magical perceptual hacks that they included, it’s very easy to get lost as far as where you’re actually physically located within their maze-like structure. Here’s an animated GIF that illustrates how physically walking in a circle is shown in the virtual world as walking in a straight line.

THE VOID's Redirected Walking

James gave me an extended tour of some of their latest design iterations and talked about their customized Rapture HMDs & gun peripherals. They’re preparing to put over 1000 TED participants through their experience in Vancouver, Canada from February 15-19. Prepare for a lot of VR buzz because what they have in store is going to give some of the participants a thrill of a lifetime.

The VOID is planning on opening up their initial arcade location in Salt Lake City later this year, and then start to spread out to other gateway locations around the country. They’ve also been making some content sponsorships with major film companies, and so you can expect some pretty sophisticated branded experiences coming soon.

James says that there’s a process for third party developers to go through in order to go through each of their different stages of development. There’s a special template that developers can use in order to create their own infinite virtual levels. I would imagine that it would be difficult to start designing levels within their constraints without having actually experienced it and been able to peak behind the scenes. But for those developers who have had a chance, then I would expect that their imagination is running wild with what types of experiences become possible.

I went through two VOID experiences including a single-player exploration as well as a co-op alien shooter. Of the two, I found the exploration game much more compelling and fun. There’s something to be said about being able to go at your own pace and take in all of the scenery. The exploration experience was a bit longer, and it had more 5D effect integrations which gave a more vaster, more diverse and overall richer experience that had a lot more awe-inspiring moments.

Their haptic feedback guns were novel and nice, but there’s a part of me that knew that I wasn’t really killing spiders and aliens. Whereas the sense of presence and immersion was so much greater in their exploration experience. And perhaps there was also a bit of an uncanny valley effect of seeing another player, but only being able to see a canned animation and not actual body movements. With the more complicated game play mechanics, there were just a lot more opportunities to have a break in presence and once those happen then it’s hard to go back. That said, there are some people who are going to totally love this type of co-op experience.

It’s still early days for The VOID, but they clearly have a lot of momentum, resources, and partnerships to actually fulfill their vision of becoming the IMAX of VR Arcades. I didn’t get a chance to experience their latest hardware or see their new RF tracking system in action. It apparently does a lot better job of not getting occluded, and it has the capability track the full body. So it’s hard to gauge exactly where they’re at based upon not seeing their latest technology, but they’ve clearly been chipping away at a number of difficult problems and integrations and what they already have is impressive even for seasoned VR veterans.

I’m looking forward to more of the educational experiences and what the third party developers do with this platform, especially when it comes to co-op experiences. I can’t wait to go through some of these worlds with my friends since I think that the social interactions within these environments is going to provide a unique shared experience that will be super compelling.

There’s still a lot of room for innovative puzzles and game design that utilizes physical props, but they’ll be constrained with wanting to maintain a fast past so that they can have a high-enough throughput to become profitable.

Once their physical template is finalized, then the sky is the limit as far as what types of genres and experiences could emerge from this type of platform. James Jensen is living out his dream of mixing virtual and real worlds, and he’s already exceeded his wildest imagination for what’s possible. I expect that 2016 will be a big year for his team, and that there will be a lot of people eager to step into The VOID.

For more information about the VOID, the be sure to check out co-founder Ken Bretschneider’s presentation:

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Rough Transcript

[00:00:05.452] Kent Bye: The Voices of VR Podcast.

[00:00:11.994] James Jensen: My name's James Jensen, and I'm the Chief Visionary Officer for The Void. And what I'm doing for VR is we're creating the first ever full immersive virtual reality experience where you're walking around and experiencing virtual reality like we all imagined we would, right? We'd be walking around and going on adventures and really exploring worlds. So, tell me a bit about the story of, like, how did this come about? So, this is actually a dream of mine for over 15 years. My background's in computer animation and visual effects, as far as mapping a virtual world over a physical world. I did a lot of computer animation, visual effects, and motion tracking way back. I was working with a team of guys who were building a camera system called an EncodaCam. It was one of the first systems where you could actually see a blue screen person over a computer generated composite in real time, so the director could actually pick his shot. And at that moment, I was like, oh, this is it. We can map a virtual world over a physical world. We had people coming out and putting their arms on things. And it's like, we can build these AutoCAD files of worlds. And then we build the real buildings, so why don't we just match them over the top of each other? And I think back then it was definitely too early, but I tried to like ramp it up a few times and figure out how to do it. And when Oculus came out, I was like, oh, this is it. Now we don't have to worry about building the HMD and then we could just do it. And so ramp up again and could never really get anybody to really buy off on the vision. And then I met Ken and Curtis that were building the Evermore Park here in Utah and they were building this awesome immersive theme park and we brought in a team of guys to do previs of that park and build out a 3D version of that park that you could walk around on an iPad. It wasn't a virtual reality thing but through that process of helping them do the previs for that park we start talking about ideas and stuff for attractions for the park and I was like, I've had this one idea for a while. I've always wanted to map a virtual world over a physical world. And Ken and Curtis thought it was a great idea, and Ken put in the first seed money, and we put together a team of guys to do a proof of concept. And the small proof of concept was through this electromagnetic field generator system to do tracking. And we tracked a couple of walls and did this little walk around, and we proved that it would work. And Ken kept financing it. Now we are where we are today, which is The Void, which kind of came out of that. And it's definitely gone way beyond anything I've really imagined it would, with Curtis and Ken bringing all of their talents and skill sets that they bring from the immersive theme park world into what this virtual reality thing is. It's really taken it to the next level. So when was the moment when you were able to actually kind of realize your vision and you walk through the virtual reality experience where you map it to the actual reality and you said, aha, I've made it?

[00:03:15.235] Kent Bye: What was that moment like?

[00:03:17.172] James Jensen: It was pretty awesome. It was probably late 2014 when we finished the first prototype. It was still really buggy and it had its issues with drift and things but you could definitely see the potential and it was pretty cool. It was just everything I imagined it would and today it's just like a perfect vision of what I imagined it would be. Yeah, I think probably one of the most striking things is that I just went through the experience and I had kind of this sense of like, in my mind, I was like, wow, I'm kind of walking more than I expected. Like, and you know, you're, you're doing a lot of really sophisticated tricks with redirected walking and, you know, talk a bit about like how you're able to use a confined space, but make it kind of feel like you're walking forever. Yeah, I mean most of that stuff has been pioneered by my partner Curtis Hickman, he's an illusionist and he really solved this problem with throughput and being able to create an endless world in a smaller space, right, where it unfolds on top of itself and we can create really any configuration, any virtual configuration, same physical configuration. And so that's been really awesome. That was one of the biggest problems we had and one of the biggest problems VR has like especially commercial stuff is being able to get enough people through and and have that happen. The redirective method that we use is really unique because it involves walls and all kinds of other 5d effects and things and so So we were in the process of securing that idea. And I think just being able to walk every step that you take in the void just solidifies that you're actually in that experience and that you've left some other place. So I think inside of the 60-foot area that Curtis has designed that unfolds, we can really have you walk through that space all day long and never see the same thing. We could literally create a massive world inside of a 60-foot space.

[00:05:13.187] Kent Bye: Wow.

[00:05:13.507] James Jensen: Yeah. And it seems like there's like a, you know, half circle when you walk through it, it makes you feel like you're walking through a straight hallway, but then there's turns and corners. And I was surprised because I, you know, I went through it and then I watched somebody go through it and I was like, oh my God, I can't believe that. there was that much of my brain being fooled by that. So the thing that was striking to me was all the different turns and being able to literally just create this world that was more vast than any other VR experience that I've ever been in. Yeah, so I mean, the alpha experience you just did is only actually a quarter size of the full stage. The full stage is a lot bigger than that, and it gives you the ability to actually make left turns, right turns, make different decisions, split off from your group, be a part of your group. The void experience will have six to eight people that you'll be able to go through at the same time. And then we can also merge stages, so you'd be able to have six to eight people in this stage battle, six to eight people in a totally different stage and merge their game on multiplayer. So, you know, you have a game that's sort of more of an exploration, and then you have one where it's more of, you know, you go around and actually kind of shooting enemies in a co-op style. So talk about the different kind of genres that you see, the different types of experience that you would want to create with The Void. Yeah, I think for all of the stuff that The Void is doing, we really kind of eliminated the word game because we're really building new worlds, new dimensions, and those worlds could consist of all kinds of things, even outside of gameplay. We've had a couple people that have said, oh, we've had this one, you know, this one concept or this one storyline. We don't even care if there's gameplay. We just want to walk into that place that we've seen and we've dreamed about, right? So there's a lot of I think the void is really shooting for more of a cinematic Exploratory kind of thing we'll have gameplay stuff obviously because that's the easiest and funnest thing to do inside of Virtual reality it lends itself really well, but we're really looking at all kinds of stuff We're looking at first-person shooters, we're looking at just exploratory, using magic, anything. We're basically building a reality, and then we can alter it from there, right? We've had a lot of people, well, not a lot of people, a few people say, you're doing so much, you're matching, you know, virtual with the physical, why don't you just build the whole physical thing? And I say to them, well, we could build the physical thing, but then we're still limited by the physical world. Inside of virtual reality, we can manipulate it, you know, change stuff, we can give people magical powers, let them stop time, we can do all kinds of fun stuff. So what's been your favorite experience in The Void so far? My favorite experience in The Void is probably watching other people walk through it. It's been so cool to see, you know, the wall system that we put in, in my mind, was to solve a few of the really big issues, but I had no idea how it actually mentally affects people. When I first conceived of the idea of mapping a virtual world over a physical world, it was a lot to do with, you know, you can't walk through a real wall in the real world, and you can't walk through walls in a video game, so why should you be able to walk through walls in a virtual reality game? And then you start talking about a commercial application, and to not have walls is like whatever, but as soon as you get some crazy kid or somebody that thinks it's fun to run through walls and smash into people, then it's not fun anymore, right? So there has to be some rules. So that's where we put the walls in in the first place. And then after watching hundreds and then thousands of people go through, I realized how impactful it is, right? People subtly will touch the walls, like they'll just brush their arm and against the wall, they'll do it without even thinking about it, right? And every time they do that, and they touch an element of the environment, it solidifies the virtual reality. So they feel like they're actually there. Yeah, I felt skeptical. Like, I was like, I don't feel like this can be possible. And I kept on wanting to just feel the walls and the corners. And each time it kind of made me feel more and more immersed into the point where by the time I get to the back, I had no idea that I had walked in a circle three times. Yeah, I think if you were to take the exact experience that we did right now, throw on HMD and use a keyboard and mouse to move around, you would go over to the edge and you could walk your virtual self off the edge and you'd be like, oh, that was kind of weird. If you were to do the exact same thing in the void and get to that edge, you would have a lot harder time walking off the edge because you feel like you're there, right? Everything is told you that you are there now. You're not just looking at this or participating. You're actually there in the place. And so all of those primal instincts that you've been grown up and like that's a really high cliff and that's really a bad idea. Those all come back, right? So to me, my favorite experience has been seeing people experience it and everybody experiences it in their own way, which is really cool. Everybody's unique. It's pretty wild. So that's also a challenge too, right? We have to build experiences that work for the general masses. We can't just throw people in these incredibly scary moments because they might not even participate. They'll just take off the gear and say, I'm not going to be part of this because it's too scary. So even the experiences we have here today, we've had to modify and change and manipulate to get people to do certain things in a timely manner.

[00:10:33.862] Kent Bye: I see. So you're scaring them so much that they didn't want to do it.

[00:10:37.022] James Jensen: Yeah, so you have to kind of lead them into these situations and prompt them in certain ways so they have, you know, their free agency to do things, but we also want them to get through in a timely manner, so we can't just drop them into this place where there's a million zombies diving on them and they're not going to participate, you know, or spiders or whatever else anybody's scared of. Yeah, there was a part where, you know, the floor is kind of breaking down in the virtual world.

[00:11:03.270] Kent Bye: And, you know, it was kind of like, I wasn't sure how much of the real world was replicating like these holes. And so I didn't want to just like start.

[00:11:11.954] James Jensen: So, but I'm curious if people who are scared of heights, when they go through these situations where in real reality, there's no real height or any drop off, but in VR, they're looking down over an edge and you get a little bit of vertigo, but if you've had people who were just like, nope, not gonna do that. I think the way that we fine-tune the experience is they get into that place, and they have to just deal with it. If you weren't to do it right, then they would say they probably wouldn't participate, but we get them into that area, and then they have to. You know what I mean? For instance, one of the elevator thing that we do with lifting people up, they don't know that's going to happen, right? And so, and then it starts happening, and then they just have to deal with it, right, at that moment. So, we are really careful on how we do those things. We've had people that have gone through that are scared of heights that I've had to help. Assistance will be inside of the stages, inside of the void stages. That's part of the safe environment of what we're doing is we have a controlled environment, we have a controlled network, we control all the hardware, we control every element of this, and then we have people there to help support you so you can do it in a fun, safe arena, right? So if you are scared of something, then there's people there to help you. And it seems like that you've had to start to develop a lot of your custom hardware to, you know, you're using an Oculus Rift DK2 right now, but I'm sure you have plans to kind of expand to continue to do your own customized hardware. So talk a bit about like, what was the limitations of the consumer grade virtual reality HMDs and what type of features and functionalities you needed to be able to take the void to the next level? Yeah. So we, when we actually started out on this, we're like, Hey, we could just use some off the shelf stuff and make this work. And then once we started using the off that shelf stuff, we found out really quickly that it wasn't going to work for commercial application. Most of the HMDs on the market right now hang off the front of your face and therefore sitting down experiences, not interacting with physical objects and other people. And so we had to, at a real base level, create a HMD that was more like a helmet that provided safety, but then also. provided a whole bunch of other things. So once we started going down that path, we found that we could do other things that were cost prohibitive for consumer level products wouldn't be for commercial, right? So people are renting our equipment, they're not purchasing it, so they don't have to drop five, $600 on HMD, they just pay their 20, 30 bucks to go through the experience. So, we're able to add more screens, to curve the screens, to add better optics, better sound effects, better audio equipment, and microphones, and the computer that needs to run virtual reality, we provide that too. So, they have the highest quality experience possible in virtual reality. So, we can control all of that. Outside of the HMD that we created, we created also a few other pieces to the Rapture family. So we have Rapture as the brand for the peripheral items. We have the Rapture HMD, the Rapture Vest, Rapture Gun, and then we're going to create all kinds of other pieces that you can use and participate, but the computer that actually goes in the Rapture vest is completely customized from the ground up. We found with grabbing stuff that was just existed on the market has all kinds of limitations. The limitation of when you unplug the power and it goes to battery power, then it cuts your GPU and CPU in half. You know, and that doesn't work for VR. You need as much power as you possibly can get. So we learned really quickly we need to build a computer from the ground up that we could utilize and control all of that equipment at will, right? We need lots of power. It comes out of a state, then we can run the thing to max. It can run the GPU to its max CPU, everything. And then it's all solid state, so you can jump around and pop around. Nothing's going to come apart. So the Void is really trying to grab onto the latest and newest technologies that are available as far as GPUs and computer technology goes. And we have to build some of the components and design some of the components from the ground up, like the heat sinks and all kinds of things to get them into a small form factor. So it's been pretty fun, but we're breaking ground on all kinds of new technologies for VR. Yeah, it's amazing to me how powerful and impactful the 5D effects of the heat or the water or the rumble in your feet as you're going up this elevator. And so tell me a bit about some of the other effects that you want to add into these experiences in order to make it feel extra real. Yeah, so the full stages that will be at The Void will be a playground for developers that are working with us. They'll have access to all kinds of lifts and shakes and heat and wind and liquids and all kinds of things inside of these stages. And we'll make it really flexible for them to activate any of these effects whenever they want to in certain areas, right? I can't get into too many specifics on the new things that we're doing, but Curtis Hickman, our resident magician, has all kinds of tricks up his sleeves. And for the exhibits that we're putting together for 2016, looking forward to our opening at the end of this year, we're doing all kinds of new things and testing stuff. We'll always have avoid labs where we're testing new products and new concepts and new ideas, scare tactics and things that we'll be putting people through all the time to test that kind of stuff. And as a developer, someone who's already developing virtual reality, a lot of times you can see something on a screen, but then you have to go into VR to really feel to see whether or not it works or not. And with The Void, you have an actual physical set where maybe you have a template to be able to create a level design, and then you kind of know that works. But still, I would imagine that you would still need to have some sort of iteration where you're actually going through the void experience in order to see whether or not it works. And so, are developers actually coding and then running through this set here to see if it works, or have they been through enough times that they can just do everything in an office? So we're developing a process and a production pipeline for developing experiences for The Void with third-party companies and that's happening right now. We have stages of development that they go through where they build a grayscale level of the environment and they build game mechanics into that and then they can actually come here through the game engine where we've built tools for them to deploy directly to our consoles and to our machines so they can actually just deploy and then come here and test it. So we'll have probably milestones or points where they come and actually see what physically is happening with their experiences and work with our internal team to tie in the 5D effects of the stage. But for the most part, like asset creation and level design, we have a specific way to do the levels that snap together to allow you to utilize the stage in the right way. But for the most part, the game development cycles are kind of the same. Places where we'd say, you know what, you've finished the grayscale version of this thing, then why don't you come out and you can walk through it? Or why don't you go to your local void center and you can walk through it? Or, well, I'm sure we're going to have tons of different development areas across the world that people will be able to experience their new stuff. And being that this is a digital out of home kind of arcade experience where you could not do this in your home, you need to go somewhere and imagine you're going to be opening up a number of different places for people to kind of come experience the void. So what are the plans for where this goes from here then? Yeah, so you can really explain what the void is if you tie it closely to like IMAX theater and televisions at home, right? People have their televisions at home but when the new amazing blockbuster comes out you don't watch it for the first time at your television at home, right? You go to the IMAX theater where it has cushy seats and the best sound and the best picture and the best experience you could possibly have, The Void plans to be that for virtual reality. So people will have their HMDs at home and they'll have really cool content. They'll probably have content that actually filters from The Void to the home market. That's at least our plan, so we'll have premium content that goes to The Void and then filters out a month or two later to the home market. But, yes, we are definitely a physical location. We plan to build locations all across the U.S. We're already looking into places, mostly gateway cities in the U.S., and then we've actually just released a press release that we partnered with Shanda Group out of China, and they have really big plans for the Void, so they're a full partner with the Void, and that relationship's going to expand and be created over the next couple of years, but they want to build all kind of Void centers over there in China that will help support And so what do you want to experience in VR then? I have a few things that I want to experience. I think the most impactful experiences for me are things that I'll never be able to obtain in the physical world with my lifespan. Things that would take years to develop the skills for, right? I probably will never be a professional scuba diver. I'll probably never be a professional wingsuit diver, right? But we can provide experiences inside our void centers that allow the average user to wingsuit dive and be able to feel what that's like or be able to go inside of the human heart. Putting people in situations where it's impossible for them to go to or almost impossible for them to go to, I think is what virtual reality is really going to Those are the most epic experiences for me. To go to a place in virtual reality that exists on the planet somewhere is kind of cool, but I want to go to places that are impossible for me to go to. I want to visit different planets and those kinds of things I think would be what I want to explore. mobile VR, you have desktop VR, you have room-scale VR. What would you call this type of VR? Do you have a name? What do you call it? I mean, we've been trying to go after professional cinematic virtual reality, so we are beyond room-scale. It's infinite. I don't know. With the environments and the equipment and everything that we're using to create our worlds, they're really infinite. I don't know, I haven't really thought about what class we're in, but we're definitely trying to reach for the highest, most professional class. We want to become the standard for professionally developed virtual reality. Yeah, I guess maybe one term would be like the digital out-of-home entertainment. I don't know if that's something that you've, have you been going to those types of trade shows and kind of investigating what else is out there? Yeah, I have. We've actually been on plenty of panels and had keynotes with other people that are doing out-of-home VR. So I guess that's where we kind of fit is maybe the leaders in out-of-home virtual reality. And finally, what do you see as kind of the ultimate potential of virtual reality and what it might be able to enable? Oh man, I have sleepless nights about this. There's so much. You're recreating reality and then being able to manipulate it. I've actually done a lot of, well not a lot, but I've done some research and experiential learning and there's a few things that I've found in that the more amplified the experience is or the more senses that you get in an experience, the better you are able to capture or retain that experience as far as education goes. So experiential learning to me is where we could really start busting open some doors. For example, if I was to give you a pamphlet about going to Honolulu, you'd read through the text and then I'd ask you what was in the pamphlet. Or then I'd show you a video and I'd say, what's in the video? And you would give me an answer and then I would actually take you to Honolulu and have an experience, and then we come back, which one do you think you would be able to recall the most? You would be able to recall the one you actually went there. You'd be explaining how it smelled, you'd explain how it felt, you'd be explaining all these different things. And so you're capturing memories of an experience that are a lot more impactful and emotionally tied to the individual. So I think Where virtual reality is going is going to open all kinds of doors for learning and understanding even the world that we live in right now. I think it's really going to grow into a way bigger thing than we can even imagine. The entertainment side of it thing is really fun and it's the lowest hanging fruit and it's great but we really jump into education and healthcare and military and all kinds of stuff. Yeah, it just makes me think, like, if you personally think about starting with, you know, shooting aliens versus, you know, what is maybe the highest thing that we could be doing in terms of education, or if you've, you know, thought about that in terms of avoid experience where, you know, people come out of it feeling like they're a better person. Right, exactly. So there's situations and things that we can put, we've already seen that we can invoke all kinds of like primal fear things in people, right? So we can do the opposite and invoke empathy and all kinds of different feelings to an experience that's happening. We've talked to some groups about just kind of global kinds of preservation type of experiences that get them to feel empathy for different types of situations where you're having an education experience, but it's impacting you in a core level, right? So that's where you can really see big change, I think. Anything else that's left unsaid that you'd like to say? I don't know. I think 2016 is going to be a pretty fun year for virtual reality. I think people are going to be seeing this very fast, speedy car zooming past everybody and it's going to be called The Void and be like, what? Where'd this guy come from? Came out of nowhere. I think we've been somewhat careful to be a little under the radar, but our video and the publicity that we've been getting worldwide has really put us on a rocket ship that is unstoppable right now. Is there any dates or anything about what we can see next about when can we start to see this might be available? So a couple big dates. Next month we're actually going to the TED conference in Vancouver and we're bringing a whole exhibit to that conference and everybody that's going to that conference will be walking through a void experience, a complete void experience. We're planning to put over a thousand people through that experience in four days. And then we have some really big relationships that are happening that you'll start seeing the void being tied into really big production houses and entertainment companies. And then at the end of 2016, third quarter, we will have our first center here open up in Utah. And then we'll be starting the beta testing in there. And then hopefully soon after that, we'll be announcing all the other locations that we're already looking at.

[00:26:15.656] Kent Bye: Okay, great. Well, thank you.

[00:26:16.817] James Jensen: Yep. Thank you.

[00:26:18.466] Kent Bye: And thank you for listening. If you'd like to support the Voices of VR podcast, then please consider becoming a patron at patreon.com slash voicesofvr.

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