#149: Justin Moravetz on developing for all of the VR HMDS from Cardboard, Gear VR, Rift, Vive & Morpheus

Justin-MoravetzJustin Moravetz of Zero Transform is a developer based out of Bend, OR and he’s been developing virtual reality experiences for all of the VR HMDS rangin from Google Cardboard, Samsung Gear VR, Oculus Rift, Valve’s HTC Vive & Sony Morpheus. Some of those experiences include Proton Pulse and Vanguard V.

Justin visited the Portland Virtual Reality Meetup and participated in this facilitated discussion last week just a day before Oculus’ big E3 press conference where they announced the Oculus Touch input controller prototype.

He talks about:

  • Justin’s current plans to build out a development studio.
  • His experiences in developing for all of the VR HMDs
  • How to get Valve’s attention by having something tangible to show them
  • The advantages of untethered mobile VR
  • Using external tracking solutions in combination with Gear VR
  • The milestones he’s trying to hit over the next year as all of the major VR HMDs start to hit the market

Justin has a lot of great insights into VR development, and it’s worth listening to hear an overview of his perspective of the VR landscape.

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Theme music: “Fatality” by Tigoolio

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Rough Transcript

[00:00:05.452] Kent Bye: The Voices of VR Podcast.

[00:00:12.114] Justin Moravetz: I'm Justin Moravitz. As he said, I worked at Sony for almost 10 years over at Sony Bend. We made games like Syphon Filter, Uncharted, Golden Abyss for the Vita. And a while back, I saw this thing called the Oculus Rift. Now, I've been working with VR before then, but it was always at home, and I got this Oculus, and I quickly produced this game called Proton Pulse, threw it out there on a forum, and the devs there really liked it. It was like, wow, an actual game in virtual reality, not just an experience. I'm like, there's got to be other games. Come on. There wasn't much, though. It was very new. And so, That was set. I needed to complete the game. I needed to follow through. This was something I had a huge passion for. Since the early 90s, I saw an article that said, virtual reality is coming. And it stuck with me ever since. And for the first time, my love for game development and virtual reality finally merged. I mean, to me, it had already happened a few years prior to that, but it was with janky hardware. I was almost fooling myself, but now my friends were like, oh, this is what you meant when you said virtual reality, not that stupid thing you were showing me earlier. And it was true. I mean, most of the hardware accessible was $800 plus and barely worked. And so I made Proton Pulse. I had a Kickstarter. I got funded in 12 hours. And then there was some problems. I was still at Sony. And they had a conflict of interest because I walked into an office one day and there was the first Morpheus, an old prototype. And I'm like, ugh, there's some rules about that. And so I closed the door that very minute and said, hey, I made this game. They loved it. Sony loved it. They wanted it on their future machine. However, they were afraid that if Oculus found out that one of their employees had an Oculus dev kit in the offices, they were stealing ideas. Never mind that Shuhei Yoshida posted on Twitter earlier. I have three of these things, and I love it. No, I'm not Shuhei Yoshida, so the legal team didn't really agree with that. So we were still in really good terms. I had to refund everybody, not tell them why. That was kind of awkward. But I decided the following spring to kind of depart from Sony. It was a bit intimidating because, you know, here I am becoming an ND, and it was my calling. I had to do this. And Sony was very nice, and they brought me down to headquarters, set me up with their dev kit, Oculus. I've been working with them and Valve and Google and all those guys. But after Proton, I released a demo called Vanguard V, and there was a Kickstarter for that. And it was another lesson I had learned because most of the people don't know what virtual reality is. Not yet. They have to try it to understand. You can't really just show it on a TV. and at the same time you also have to educate them on the expense what this money is going to and i was told this was ambitious or greedy for because the game was a two hundred thousand dollar project But it was for a team, not for one guy, and it was for this link and stuff. If anyone done the math, we all could've worked at McDonald's and had more take-home pay for sure. This was me working for free, but that's perfectly fine. But that project did not succeed, but I got a lot of support. A lot of emails, come down here, check out our hardware, let's see what you think of this. And it's been great ever since I released for the VR Jam Pulsar Arena. It was a six-week project. I probably should have dug up old assets like some of the other guys did. But that's not really the heart of a game jam. But yeah, it's been an exciting time. And what I've been trying to do here is create a game studio Here in Oregon, specifically for virtual reality, there's a number of us, some of which are from Sony, who are working on a variety of things. And so I've been doing a lot of traveling and a lot of work to try to get the resources to lay down the foundation for a scaled-up studio. And that's primarily why I'm here. I wanted to see what Portland has going on for virtual reality. And it seems to be much bigger than Bend, I have to admit. So I'm a little jealous.

[00:03:59.270] Kent Bye: Well, I wanted to dive into a little bit of the different headsets and projects because you've released things, you've worked on Google Cardboard, you've done stuff for Gear VR, you've done stuff with Oculus Rift and Sony Morpheus, presumably now the HTC Vive.

[00:04:14.021] Justin Moravetz: You've basically hit all of the different headsets and maybe you could just give us a little short tour of your experience of developing for each of these platforms. Well, I'm going to start with mobile VR because that's what's out right now. I mean, we have the Oculus DK2 and the older DK1, and those are considered dev kits, and they're kind of evolving. But the Gear VR is more or less a finished product. Same for the Google Cardboard as kind of the entry. And the first time I got introduced to the Gear VR was the day before the Facebook announcement. So I'm in this small room looking at this guy presenting Vanguard V before I went to Kickstarter to see if we could work out some deal. This guy, now he was hardcore. He worked at EA and he was used to seeing, like, we want to make another Call of Duty. And if it wasn't Call of Duty, he wasn't interested. But he did notice that my titles were really good for head tracking. No gamepad or anything along those lines. And he said, this might be good for the mobile project. And I'm like, I heard Carmack leaking. I mean, talking about stuff like that. So they set me up with the first prototype Gear VR. It was based off of an old Galaxy S4. It was this black janky. It's falling apart. It was very uncomfortable. And I had two focus wheels instead of one. I opened it, and I saw a cell phone, and I saw this janky-looking box. I'm like, oh, this is going to be terrible. I put it on, and I'm like, eh, whatever. Holy crap! It works! It works really well! What kind of magic does John Carmack have to get the tracking to work that responsibly on... And this is an S4. After that there was an S5 model, and so I did some work for that. And then there was an S5 prototype which has the Note 4 guts in it, and that thing overheats like nobody's business, but it worked. Then the final one came out, and it was nice to see this evolution of, like, how did they work with the optics? How did they do the focusing? How is the tracking improved? And while things got more and more powerful, the one thing they nailed from day one was the tracking. The very first model I had was just as smooth as the current one that's out. And I was really impressed with that. And so when I worked on Vanguard V and Proton Pulse, I knew mobile VR was coming. If you listen to Carmack, he's the best leak you've got to the near future, his Twitter especially. And everything had mobile in mind, so I made a cross-compatible. I worked with the Unity engine. I've done a lot of work with Unreal as well, but Unity is a little bit better geared for fast prototyping and for mobile currently. And so I then brought everything to Cardboard. Cardboard was the first place I could sell anything for VR. So, I mean, Gear was out around early October, not very many of them, and Cardboard opened their dedicated store in late November. And it wasn't until the following March before you could sell anything on Gear. And so I sold some things on Cardboard, that started to take off, and then Gear opened up their store while I was at GDC. I had no idea. They didn't tell me how much my own product was going to sell for at the time. It was a bit rushed. So mobile has been a surprise to me because of how powerful it is to not be tethered to anything, and how capable it is of providing the same kind of experience. But when you get into the real meat of VR, the Vive, the Morpheus, the CV1, or the Crescent Bay, there are some things that the mobile can't quite do yet. There's a level of immersion that makes you forget what you're doing, which anybody who's tried VR in their desk and they're playing something and then they take off the head-mounted display and they're facing like a wall they did not expect to be facing, that's the kind of feeling you get because you were somewhere else until a moment ago. And mobile can do that to an extent, but without the whole package is the sound, is the visuals, is the input, and a variety of things. And you need good design in both UI and gameplay interaction and all of these things. And I'm very happy to see Valve, for one, really pushing the envelope on input. The move for the Morpheus is phenomenal for input. And I mean, I think it would be really silly to see Oculus just release a gamepad. So there's definitely a lot of eyes on them for tomorrow.

[00:08:28.267] Kent Bye: Well, in terms of becoming a viable indie VR developer, there may be some aspiring VR developers here. I know I count myself as one of those.

[00:08:37.732] Justin Moravetz: There's a bit of a strategy of like, it seems like the mobile VR has already landed first in terms of having stores. It may have like huge, in terms of volume, larger penetration, but yet you could charge more for a really highly polished Vive, and that may have lower volume, but still be able to make it. So in terms of designing VR, it seems like it'd be difficult for you to design something that would work equally well for mobile, sit-down, desktop, Oculus, and Morpheus, and then whole stand-up, full room-scale vibe. And so, from your own way of trying to figure out your strategy for which platforms are you going to target, which ones are you going to prioritize, and how are you going to make this sort of a viable, sustainable venture for yourself? So each VR headset has their own strength. With my last title, Pulsar Arena, it was specifically for Gear VR. And its biggest strength is that you're not tethered. I had mentioned that. And so the game was a 360 degree experience. You would play in any direction. And it was necessary. That's not something I do with the Oculus because of that wire. And even though Vive has the ability to move around, you're still tethered. And I find that most people want to have a comfortable sitting experience. and so you put in extra controls so you can swipe forward or backwards and you can rotate while in place without having to turn but mobile itself is kind of the gateway to the bigger project so you can't you don't charge as much for mobile because that's how the market has been set over the last years since the app stores have come online But it's a good way of giving people the idea of what virtual reality is and if they want to try something bigger and better, you start with mobile and it kind of advertises or points them in the direction of the big boys. And so Vanguard V currently for mobile is more a way to let people know about what's going on for the bigger projects. That's basically the model I have right now. It's mobile's advertising for larger and larger projects. There's going to be a point though when the two converge. I mean, you look at a DK2 and you open it up, the screen itself says Samsung on it. It's actually from a phone. It's the front part of a phone. They didn't even bother taking off the front cover. and you look at a gear and there's a phone inside. The only difference between those two is one has a battery and a mobile GPU, which that mobile GPU is in everything these days. And so I don't imagine it'll be too long before we see a hybrid where you can have something that's mobile and then plug it into a machine to get higher power stuff. But yeah, that's basically the business.

[00:11:11.806] Kent Bye: And so you're going around trying to raise funding. What would be sort of the optimal result of that? And what are you trying to sort of create with Zero Transform?

[00:11:21.123] Justin Moravetz: But I'm trying to create as a team. And so what I mean by that is I have core people helping me out with a variety of things. But you need a foundation. They need support. They're not crazy like I am. I work 80 hours a week at home making VR content, and I love that. You know, that's not for everybody. So to have a team, they need to be essentially secure. They need to feel secure. I mean, if you have an artist who is helping you out and is getting paid, they want to know that they have a place to go tomorrow, a month from now, a year from now. That's essential because VR is not out right now. We have to be able to build a product first and then sell it and then bring it to the next platforms and so forth. And to support that up front is a unique challenge, especially for a platform that a lot of people haven't been exposed to yet. And so what I'm looking for is right now it's, I mean, basically funds equals security equals team and the foundation. There are a few members of my team who are very passionate and believe strongly in what it is we do. And so they give up some of that security and contribute. But I'm looking for, and I'm happy to be here because this is Oregon. I get this much better than I get San Francisco. I'm looking for people, support, or any ideas. I've traveled to many different venture groups down in San Francisco. There's the Rothenburg Ventures River Fund and things along those lines. And I want something that's good for Oregon, good for this team, not necessarily something that's good for San Francisco. Because it's going to stay here. I'm not planning to relocate it.

[00:13:00.977] Kent Bye: And so at GDC this year, Valve surprised a lot of people by announcing the HTC Vive. It was kind of the hottest ticket in the whole conference.

[00:13:09.221] Justin Moravetz: You know, they had turned down over a thousand people. I'm just curious about how you first got to try it and then what your kind of impressions of that platform and what its strengths are. Valve is doing something incredible. My first exposure to Valve's side of VR was last September. They brought me up there and we ported Vanguard V to the AR marker room headset that they had. And so the biggest surprise I had was I get there and I see the VR wing. Now, I expected to see a few guys because I thought most of them had been poached and went over to Oculus. I was wrong. I was very wrong. And so I try out their headset and I'm like, this is better than the DK.

[00:13:51.271] Kent Bye: What is this?

[00:13:51.791] Justin Moravetz: This is incredible. And it had been out for a while. And so we ported Vanguard V to that. It only took a few hours and it was working good. And after that, at Unite, I tried the Crescent Bay, and there wasn't much of a difference between what I saw that Val had made a year ago. So when I saw the Vive, what they had done is it's essentially the same at its core, where it has positional tracking at a room scale, but they've made it more compact. They've given it a better screen. They basically solidified what they had. In Crescent Bay, you're seeing a lot of the same parallels as what Vive has as well. And then they focused on input. And I was very happy to see that they spent some real time on that. So when I discounted Valve because I thought they had mostly been poached, I was very surprised to see that they were now in front when they announced the Vive at GDC. And I'm seeing this with a lot of developers. At the same time, Valve is very hard to get a hold of. I mean, Steam. How many guys, how many games are running through them to get their attention? usually means you can't come up with an idea you have to have something that you can show them something that you can prove to them is viable because they have to go through so much essentially noise to get to you if you're a developer and so be diligent and have something ready to show if you want to talk to the guys at Valve but the biggest thing I can say about the Vive is that I'm impressed how far ahead they were and it looks like they're continuing that trajectory Do you expect that the tracking solution from Oculus is going to be on par with Lighthouse tracking? Oculus is a sitting experience? No. That was actually a quote from the last Oculus Connect. It was kind of a legal line, almost a joke from Nate Mitchell because, you know, there's legal concerns if you trip over your cat or something along those lines. And I have this demo at my place in bend where it's a motion tracking setup and it pipes that data to my gear VR wirelessly so I can move around a VR space being rendered by the gear VR but positional is handled by another machine. And it brings up some interesting challenges because the vive advertises that you can have this big space and do all this stuff in it but with the wire with the computer with all that tethering and most people don't have well i don't have a clean office that's also a misconception it can do that you don't necessarily have to and so it's an interesting thing because It seems to be a huge deal right now, but I think it's going to be less relevant, believe it or not, until things can get untethered. I think moving around your room is more a space down the road for AR, specifically, because it makes a little more sense to be able to see where you're going, or pass through VR, which is along the same lines of AR that Carmack is currently working on. So there's some interesting challenges there, for sure.

[00:16:50.896] Kent Bye: Nice. And maybe we could take some questions from the audience, if you guys have some questions.

[00:16:57.116] Justin Moravetz: So software platforms for interacting with other players in the same space. So you mean like multiple VR headsets in the same house? Yes. Right now we're at a very early stage of software development for a number of teams and so the focus right now is trying to build the language of what is VR, how do you interact with menus and things along those lines. There is a prototype of Proton Pulse and Pulsar Arena that's local multiplayer. And it pipes the audio from, if you're wearing headphones, it pipes it through the speaker system and makes it sound like you're in an echo chamber, things like that. But I can't be the only one doing that. So I'm sure that there's a local multiplayer aspects coming to VR. I'm just not aware of all. Well, the Morpheus is tethered to the PlayStation 4, so it's only got one video output. It can handle up to five controllers, but not the actual head-mounted displays. So you would need a room full of Sony PlayStations to do that, right? What's wrong with that? I mean, we've all been to LAN parties, right? I'm not old. So yeah, just some more information about connecting up the Gear VR mobile tetherless to tracking. So I'm definitely not warning against it because please go out there and experiment with this stuff. It's a great time to do so. Just watch out for your cat. What I've got is a natural point tracking system. It's mostly for motion capture in video games and cinema. I actually know the guys over at Natural Point. They're here in Oregon as well. And the engineer, the top guy there in the software side, brings me tacos every now and then. We kind of hold a get together once every couple of weeks over game design. We call it programming. And so he got me a setup, or he helped me get a setup. I still had to buy it, of course. But he had the software, and it's currently available that takes all of the points that are being tracked and streams it to Unity. Now, if you build a project in Unity, with that thing going on, it's wirelessly taking that positional data, that skeletal tracking, and putting it in your project on Gear VR. And so I can walk around this room and I can see everything in VR and move around like I'm here in actual space. I can hook up my arm and do whatever I want. It tracks everything. It's a very surreal experience to be able to walk around, look down, see your legs move as you move, to move your arm as you move it because you don't see that input anywhere. But it's a $10,000 setup. And yeah, you have to be a little nuts. However, that's going to be getting cheaper and cheaper. We're seeing some of that already in the Vive. So it's room positional. You can walk around. And with the way the controllers work, it's already tracking your arms. It doesn't take much to realize how you should move legs in VR. They might not match yet. But as the technology gets better and better, and we'll see this with AR and inward out tracking where it can track where walls are and things along those lines like Project Tango does with Google, it's going to be more approachable. So you won't need that mocap rig. In fact, there's a group up in Seattle who has the same setup I do. They're using a wireless video thing so they can do it with the DK1 and the DK2 instead of Gear VR. But they're going to ditch that as soon as the Vive comes out, which is great for me because I'm going to buy their old cameras. But yeah, it's coming for sure. And it's awesome, first and foremost. It's really awesome. But I keep mentioning my cat. Seriously, I had a shoelace slightly untied, and it was kind of surreal to feel something. You don't see it in VR. You just know there's something fluffy there. So it's incredible, though.

[00:20:36.081] Kent Bye: Yeah, so business models and monetization for virtual reality developing.

[00:20:41.225] Justin Moravetz: It's not necessarily a dirty word. It's how you use a business model, how it represents your company as a whole, how it builds your team, and so forth. Virtual reality is poised to be $20 to $30 billion business by 2020, according to Business Insider. 45%, 48% of that is coming from VR game content. That's the prediction. And so the business model, at least the one that I'm following, is platform attach rate is generally higher at launch. So, a game like Resistance 1 on the PlayStation 3 sold way more copies than they anticipated for a game of that stature because it was there day one. Same story with Halo, same story with a lot of other titles that are there at the beginning. And so, moving forward, you're going to see other studios, AAA studios, start to migrate once the install base is there. At the beginning, we're going to see a lot of indie development and smaller titles or big titles that also supports VR but not really designed for it. What's really great for any developers is if you're in that window at the beginning, you have a real chance to scale up and meet that demand for the foreseeable future. Right now, AAA studios have to worry about install base. And so this is their main install base. It's this rectangle. You look through it or you look at it, it's flat. There was some 3D a few years ago and that seemed to go away. But this is where the millions and millions of people are. Now, when it's coming to virtual reality, when we start to see more vibes sell, we start to see success, those AAA studios are going to start making dedicated projects or more focused towards VR on both. You'll see a lot of crossovers at first. It's like ports. When a console launches, you see a lot of ports from previous games that don't really fit. But the business aspect of it is that software content is what drives this hardware. This is why Vive is paying attention to some guy in the middle of Oregon. Sony, same story, is because they need people like us to create these dreams, these experiences. And you can have the best computer or the best tray or whatever. Without software, it doesn't really do anything. They rely on it. And so it's really important on the business side, if you want to succeed in VR, you've got to stand above and beyond basically the base ground of user-generated experiences. You'll see a few things that are just, I made this thing where I can see a table or a fruit or whatever. And then you see a little more interaction and things are going to start to go more and more towards where you see indie development on mobile platforms these days. But if you can create something that people can connect to a character or a story experience, something that really drives home, then you should do just fine. So yeah, lessons in virtual reality storytelling when you can't direct the attention or you You can direct the attention, but when it's not immediately obvious for ways to direct the attention. So what have you learned in terms of storytelling in VR? So one of the things I did at Sony was the cinematics. Of course Siphon Filter, I did some of them for the Resistance game we worked on as well. And it was nice because I can point the camera there, I can put a bunch of stuff behind the camera we don't care about. You can't do that with VR. There are so many rules about VR that are just now coming to light. You see in movies, the FOV zoom in on something, action shot, and they're flying through things. You can't do any of that. You'll make the person sick. And so you have to make where the player is the point of interest. Not necessarily what they're looking at, but where they are. That's the point of interest, and they're looking at something else. And so to guide them, you have to use a series of either transitions, cues through audio or visual means, and you have to keep things cinematically interesting without having all of those old camera tricks that we've developed over the last hundred years or so. There are a number of ways you can do the movement. Keep it constant. Don't shake them. Don't let them drive it. The difference between driving a car and being a passenger, like reading a book. And if you need to make cuts, or you need to change direction, or you need to change how fast you're moving, blank out the screen for just a split second, come back. You can do that with an effect or something, but it basically stops the expectation of the movement moving forward. And so there was this interesting presentation done in VR with an interesting name called Buds. I don't know if any of you guys seen that, but they did something really incredible at the end where they wanted the person to look up at this moon. And what they did is they had everything kind of shrinking around them. It was this circle and it's getting darker and darker, but the center of the circle we've seen for years has always been the center of the screen, like in Looney Tunes when something fades out. Not in this case. It was up. And so as it was starting to close, you're like, wait, where's the and it forced you to look up. Those are the key elements to storytelling in VR that are going to be developed over the next years. And I should also point out, Coloss was a winner in the VR Game Jam, and they did a whole write-up and a lot of gaze-based, depending on if you're looking in a general direction, having that cue and have the linear story only progress once you are looking at specific places or look back and forth. And a lot of traditional storytelling from filmmaking techniques as well, from a number of different filmmaker, cinematic VR interviews that I've done as well.

[00:26:05.950] Kent Bye: There was a question, Zach, yeah.

[00:26:08.083] Justin Moravetz: Yeah, so Google Cardboard, how you treat it for advertising and if you treat it like other apps and also iOS and Cardboard. So Cardboard has a dedicated space for the VR experiences for Google Cardboard. That's phenomenal because there's so much noise in these app stores. So much of it. There's this race down to the bottom when it comes to mobile apps and things. What we're seeing in the Cardboard side is there's still a lot of that. It's really cheap, but we're seeing experiences. We don't see very many ads yet because how do you get an ad to unless it's on a virtual billboard and that doesn't really apply to everything. So when I approach Cardboard, I treat it as a genuine platform. Now what's really convenient is when you make something for Cardboard, it's not far-fetched from making something for Gear VR and a lot of other mobile solutions. And so VR has three pillars right now. There's mobile, there's PC and Mac eventually, and console, which is currently only PlayStation 4. Now, the PC and console have a lot of similarities in architecture. So that's pretty good. Mobile has a whole new set of rules. And the reason for that is you've got to take into consideration battery life and heat. There's all this power in the Note 4 that I can't use because it'll overheat and drain the battery and all sorts of problems. So it's a challenge for sure, but it is a platform. You have to treat it as a genuine platform. Otherwise, you're not going to have a very good experience. You're going to have very slow frame. You have to take it seriously, essentially. On the iOS side of things, and this applies to anybody here who wants to try Cardboard on iOS, I have a beta version of ProtonPulse, the full version. All you need to do is give me an email and you can get invited to that beta. But the iOS side of things is looking fantastic. So the Cardboard 2.0 SDK works great with iPhone. I was very happy to see them do that. And one of the things that I noticed, because when I did mobile VR, I did it on iPhone before I even touched Android, it had better audio latency, which was a huge problem with Android when I first started. And generally speaking, the performance was pretty parallel as far as how tracking would work and things along those lines. But now I have something that's unified. I can make it for both Android and iOS through Unity, one SDK. That's brilliant. And so if you want to try out iOS and Cardboard, just come up and shoot me an email and I'll get you guys on.

[00:28:34.194] Kent Bye: Cool. I'll ask one last question here and then we'll dive into the demos.

[00:28:38.456] Justin Moravetz: We're here in the, you know, summer's about to begin. And then the Gear VR, Carmack alluded to, is going to be sort of launching with the next Note 5, which will be sometime in the fall. We have Oculus has said they're going to be releasing sometime in the first quarter of 2016. Vive has said it's going to be 2015, winter, you know, for the holiday season. And then Sony has said the first half of 2016. So for you, what's your big milestones that you're going to be trying to hit over the next year? First thing over the next week, get everything I've got on mobile. Because I want to be able to... That's done. Because it's going to take a lot of work to get it to be up to par for PlayStation 4, for PC, along those lines. And so, Vive is first. They come out first. They have the biggest store. Because second is Oculus. They don't have Steam. So I'm going to be developing for Vive primarily. I also have to keep the resources in check because not everybody's going to have super powerful hardware and I have to make sure it works on a PlayStation 4 as well for the future. And so Vive for me is going to be the primary development toolkit, then Oculus, because they come out next, and then Morpheus. Now, it's important to keep all three somewhat up to date and parallel, so if there's any changes in SDKs or how things function, you want to make sure you're not shooting yourself in the foot down the road. But these guys also like to showcase what you're working on. So, You want something for the PlayStation experience or for E3? You got to have something ready. They're going to come knocking. If you're not there, there goes your free marketing. So all three are going to be worked on or to some degree, but the primary platform is going to be Violent First.

[00:30:21.395] Kent Bye: OK, great. Thank you so much. And thank you for listening. If you'd like to support the Voices of VR podcast, then please consider becoming a patron at patreon.com slash Voices of VR.

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